Open Setup Certification Group

[Lord Gurgi]

I dunno. It seems like if 3:9 is balanced, why is 3:8+1 balanced?

[Ether]

C9 = 11001001
Bird 'C9' = 11. There are no other possibilities.

So you could just go with Bird11.

And yeah, the balance is fine.

I still support keeping Basic 12-player around with no lynch banned so we can still have a few games without the roleblocker fix. I agree that the ban is a bit artificial but don't think this is a bad thing.

Also, it feels

weird

to debate the balance of a game so frequently used as a reference point. I get the cop claiming thing, but...meh, not passing this seems like blasphemy.

3:9 (vanilla) isn't balanced; I don't think a town has ever even won a 2:10. Strawberry is probably scum-sided; Gurgi's fear of a cop that survives three nights along with all of its innocents is unlikely. I like the idea of making it 3:10.

[Adel]

Bird C9 (27, 98, 117)

(flagged by Xyl)

Trendy and Subversive C9 (90, 91, 94)

(flagged by Xyl)

Basic Twelve Player (3, 9, 54)

(flagged by Lord Gurgi)

Masons and Monks (12, 23, 56)

(flagged by Adel)

Strawberry (17, 46, 62)

(flagged by Adel)

Polygamist (76, 83, 88)

(flagged by Adel)

The New C9 (50, 60, 81, 104)

(flagged by Adel)

Nightless Vanilla (6, 19, 41, 79)

(flagged by Xyl)

OK the remaining flagged set ups have been flagged by Adel. I think starting with Strawberry makes sense because it is the simplest.

3 mafia
1 cop
8 townies

Not broken so the issue must be balance. Seems mafia friendly if given random lynches. Adding one town gives the town an extra lynch attempt given straight mislynches.

I flagged Strawberry because I think it is a crap setup, even if it is balanced.

I flagged the others because I wasn't

sure

that they were balanced and quality.

Sorry my activity level has been low recently... but I am here for the long haul and y'all are doing a great job without me.

[shaft.ed]

I tried to calculate EV's for 3:9 but realized I fail at math

life

I do not support putting through anything that requires a fix like forced lynches just because Cop and Doc are classic roles.

[shaft.ed]

Re: Strawberry, again I don't think we're here to say if a set up is interesting. We are here to say if it is broken and reasonably balanced.

[Norinel]

I'm leaning towards certifying trendy/subversive, although I seem to remember there were two versions of it when Thesp originally posted it. I'm going to dig it up if necessary, but the two versions looked like this:

V1

1 of Cop/Nurse
1 of Doc/Deputy

V2

1 of Cop/Doc
1 of Nurse/Deputy

The latter is better for town because they have a power role guaranteed.

Also,

certify Bird C9

When I originally posted it, the alternative version was Cop/Deputy and Doc/Nurse. But that's much more of a joke about the useless backups meta than a legitimate setup. (Though my intuition was that Cop/Nurse is legitimate) Cop/Doc is a novel variant, I think, and interesting.

[Lord Gurgi]

I kind of like this bring in the creator and have them explain their though process thing.

[mith]

Quick comment: It's probably already a little confusing that we have E7 (which is actually 7 players), C9 (also 7 players), and F11 (9 players)... adding in a Bird11 (7 players) is too much...

I do agree that any setup with C9 in the name that isn't semi-open needs a new name, though.

Adel: Do you also think California is a crap setup?

3-1-8 Strawberry is very tough on the town; the best they can realistically hope for is that they can trade the Cop for a Scum, and then it becomes a 2-X setup that's worse than 2-10 (already in the Scum's favor). 3-1-11 would be a more reasonable balance, or 3-1-9 with cop headstart.

I'm hoping a can work out a general method for finding the EV of M-1-T setups, but see the numbers thread for how messy it can get even for something as seemingly simple as California.

[Ether]

Actually...maybe we could hold some kind of pseudomarathon day of our own that keeps a more structured queue and only runs experimental open setups? We get a more concentrated audience, and if it's a speed day that otherwise wouldn't have occurred, everyone's happy.

Lord Mith, what's your view on this?

[Guardian]

Lovers Mafia (no wiki page yet)

my baby.

[Adel]

Adel: Do you also think California is a crap setup?

nope. I like California. Smaller games should be allowed a greater variance in swingyness (I believe that player time commitment is inversely proportional to their tolerance for swingyness)

3-1-8 Strawberry is very tough on the town; the best they can realistically hope for is that they can trade the Cop for a Scum, and then it becomes a 2-X setup that's worse than 2-10 (already in the Scum's favor). 3-1-11 would be a more reasonable balance, or 3-1-9 with cop headstart.

not to mention that the performance and survival of a single player is the single most important variable for town success. That equates with a crap 12-player setup in my book.

Re: Strawberry, again I don't think we're here to say if a set up is interesting. We are here to say if it is broken and reasonably balanced.

it isn't broken. It isn't especially balanced for a 12 player game, but it is probably within the standard we used for smaller games.

[mith]

I'd be fine with that, Ether.

[shaft.ed]

I kind of like this bring in the creator and have them explain their though process thing.

Yes I like this as well.

Also

Macho Bird

? or

Macho Cop

for new Bird C9 game?

[Korts]

Sorry, Norinel, I have no idea how I mixed you up with Thesp.

I think I like Macho Bird for a name, although I find myself kinda drunk yet again. Flay's suggestion of Bird 1111111 was pretty good too.

[shaft.ed]

I don't see any more issues being raised Re: Trendy & Subversive. Could people please state which of the two set ups (or both or neither) they wish to approve?

Strawberry fixes proposed:
3 v cop + 9
or
3 v cop +9 w/ cop head start

I don't really know how much more impact a cop head start is going to have. I think it does have the potential to turn the game into "cop tries to live through X innocent investigations and claims," but that's low probability because their investigations have to survivie to that point. I think they'd have one throw away out of the number needed.

The New C9 is rather large and thus complicated, Masons and Monks is a 2 v 2 v 8 which I'd like to discuss with the other 2 v 2 v 8's that have run.

That leaves Polygamist Mafia which is a doubled Lovers Mafia
a 4 Lover scum team vs 4 town lover pairs

Scum must direct 2 mislynches without getting any member of their team lynched. Believe this is about a 40/60 EV if I remember correctly. Should be harder than Lovers due to the greater number of interactions that can be picked up on.

[farside22]

I kind of like this bring in the creator and have them explain their though process thing.

Yes I like this as well.

Also

Macho Bird

? or

Macho Cop

for new Bird C9 game?

Macho bird works.

[shaft.ed]

OK guys we're talking about Polygamist Mafia.

Anything anyone sees trouble with. For the record of three games, town has won 2 and scum 1.

It's essentially Lovers doubled. A 4 man scum team may be a bit too easy for the town to notice. A possible "fix" would be reducing the scum team to 3. But on the other hand a 4 player voting block is much more powerful than a 3. It also makes end game come a lynch earlier, which significantly changes the EV.

Essentially I don't such much point in altering it. So it's either approve or disprove from what I can tell.

I move to certify Polygamist

[Xylthixlm]

No objection on Polygamist.

[mith]

I'm a little meh on Polygamist, personally. I'd rather see two Lovers games run than one Polygamist. But no objection to certifying it, either.

[Ether]

I think Polygamist is just a gimmick; aside from flavor, I don't get why Lovers should be the only setup with a spinoff like that. (And if you're gonna use it, prearranged hydras would be many times cooler than randomly-assigned lovers. Many, many times cooler. Doitdoitdoit.) It's probably balanced, though.

I think I'm missing something with Shaft.ed's 3-person scumgroup. If each townie has a lover, then a mass loverclaim breaks the game; if the townies are all independent, then they get many extra lynches.

[shaft.ed]

I think I'm missing something with Shaft.ed's 3-person scumgroup. If each townie has a lover, then a mass loverclaim breaks the game; if the townies are all independent, then they get many extra lynches.

Yeah it was a stupid typing without thinking moment.

[Korts]

I'll more thoroughly consider Polygamist tomorrow, but Ether's argument seems convincing--it's just Lovers with every player being replaced with a lover pair, and I don't see why this is a better way to go than simply allowing hydras in Lovers sign-ups.

[shaft.ed]

I'll more thoroughly consider Polygamist tomorrow, but Ether's argument seems convincing--it's just Lovers with every player being replaced with a lover pair, and I don't see why this is a better way to go than simply allowing hydras in Lovers sign-ups.

Let me reiterate, we aren't looking for the best mafia game, we're looking for is the game balanced, and is it broken? Lovers Hydra would be yet another possible set up that can be added to the Discussion thread.

[Korts]

But Lovers Hydra=Polygamist. For the record I have no problem with Polygamist's balance, and based on that alone I'm for certifying it--but it's just a variant of Lovers.

[Adel]

for the record, Polygamist came first (my design) and Guardian later simplified it into Lovers. As a game intended to be full of newbies, I thought the hydras would give the game more resistance to stalling out when waiting for replacements, give players a chance to read posts by 12 players in one game without the game being too complicated or too long, and give them a hydra buddy that they know they could trust.