Mini 737 - Hack Poetry Mafia (Game Over)

[sekinj]

@ don - what do you think of budja's reference to a singular buddy?

[sekinj]

Let's think about what the make-up of scum woudl have to be in order to balance 2 docs...I think if we have two docs, we have to have two scum groups... expecially if you throw a town watcher in there as well...

thoughts?

[Rhinox]

Just chiming in to say I'm still reading - taking a little longer than I thought.

Just wanted to nip this in the bud real quick

I am most suspicious of DO, who declared that we should lynch a freshly-claimed doc "just to see", followed by a bit of floundering then total abandonment, followed by a no-show from his replacement. I'm totally willing to put my vote down on his slot on that basis, though I'm willing to see what Rhinox has to say first.

DO is chock full of bad ideas, and is very good at looking like scum when he's town. I've played with him twice, which happen to be his only 2 completed games on the site (I think). The first game we lynched him for being obvscum. He was townie, I was townie. The second game he was up to his same antics, I vouched for him, explaining how his play in the game can't be a tell on his allignment either way due to his playstyle. Nearly everyone else wanted to lynch him. I said there was no way I was supporting his lynch. I talked the town out of lynching DO, and he got a guilty investigation that night as cop. I was vanilla town.

So... DO's suggestion to lynch a claimed doc may or may not be a bad idea - I haven't gotten that far yet - but its definitely not something that would indicate to me that I thought he was scum.

The abandonment is also a null tell. The first game I played with DO, when the pressure got a little too strong, he turned tail and ran. The more pressure, the more he floundered, until he insulted everyone and asked to be replaced. Again, he was town.

The no show from his first replacement is so not a scum tell that without even reading the thread, I would vote Spolium just for saying it was. Ok, so I'm not going to do that, but I will be reading Spolium pretty closely.

Here are the 2 games I'm talking about when I refer to DO. I hope you'll at least read DO's posts in isolation in those 2 games - I think you'll see what I mean.

Mini 716
Mini 725

All that being said, is there anything else about DO you guys find scummy other than "He suggested to lynch a claimed doc?" That sounds like a pretty weak reason to call for someone's lynch, considering there are 2 doc claims (very unlikely in a mini, imo) as well as 1 other claim as well, if I'm understanding the little bit I read so far correctly. Why do I get the feeling that there is some role fishing going on - forcing as many people as possible into claiming?

[Spolium]

The abandonment is also a null tell. The first game I played with DO, when the pressure got a little too strong, he turned tail and ran. The more pressure, the more he floundered, until he insulted everyone and asked to be replaced. Again, he was town.

The no show from his first replacement is so not a scum tell that without even reading the thread, I would vote Spolium just for saying it was.

It has been my observation that scum slots in trouble tend to cycle through more replacements than townie slots, so I'd have to disagree with you. I'm not saying that it's a be-all and end-all rule, but it upped my suspicion of your slot significantly.

I've already been given a harsh lesson in the perils of meta-defence in this game (for which I took a lot less flak than I deserved, I think), but I will check over DO's activity in the games you cited.

[Spolium]

I'd also add, however, that I've noticed Deltaflyer being replaced in other games as well - his replacement seems more legit in light of this.

[RedCoyote]

Goat, I'm going to go ahead and revoke my suspicions of you on account of Jebus' claim... but I have to address something that you said.

If you're looking for the most likely to kill Spolium based on the criteria "Who Spolium was on to", why would you pick me over Ice or yourself?

Regardless of whether it is valid or not, why the heck would I argue that

I

would be the most likely to shoot Spolium?

And, erm, Ice has long since left this game. I don't think Plonky/DO acted like Ice did at all.

In other words, I don't get this comment of yours at all.

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Like Goat, I'm very weary of the two Doctor argument, even with sanity issues between them. The main reason I don't like to consider two town-sided Doctors is because of the no kill. If this town has two Doctors and possibly a Watcher... it just seems like the town already has some power going for it, so I would imagine that there would have to be some pretty strong scum forces at work for that to happen. With no kill last night, the possibility of two mafia factions or an SK are much slimmer than they were yesterday.

Obviously a mafia-sided Doctor would be a different story.

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First, when I saw Spring's counterclaim of Budja, I thought that was a townie trying to get the lynch in quickly.

This doesn't sound right to me. I don't know Jebus, is this normal? I mean, I haven't been playing at MS long, but I would almost never accept something like this. It wasn't like spring was exactly crazy for a Budja lynch either. Other than supporting his lynch, she never seemed to do anything especially aggressive toward him.

But I have to admit I do understand the reason why you saved her. Otherwise your save would've been somewhat random and had whatever odds at working.

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Welcome Rhinox

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I think if we have two docs, we have to have two scum groups... expecially if you throw a town watcher in there as well...

The odds of two killing parties seem considerably low for me.

Unless...

Question: theoretically, if there were two killing parties and they both shot the same person that was being protected (e.g. spring) would a Doctor protect against both kills?

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I think, whatever conclusions we come to, don, Jebus, and spring should be off limits for lynching today.

[Rhinox]

It has been my observation that scum slots in trouble tend to cycle through more replacements than townie slots, so I'd have to disagree with you.

From what I've seen, I would say town or scum slots can equally cycle through replacements. However, regardless of allignment, the slot being replaced is usually under suspicion.

Anyways... I'm a bit into my read. I'm reading quickly so I know I'm not getting 100% of everything just yet, but one thing I did notice was Spolium jumping in to answer for Budja very early in the game, and seemed a lot like defending him to me. Normally, although it is WIFOM, I would divine that scum wouldn't openly defend their scum partner so obviously and it is more likely that a townie was doing the defending coincidentally. However, the exception would be if the player being defended happens to be a scum power role. Not sure if I'd be comfortable using this to justify a vote on spolium, but it does make me wonder.

Looking back at the lynch wagon, Spolium didn't jump on until after Budja's self vote. Seems like a safe time to jump on the wagon. I'm equally suspicious of millar13's vote on budja - To me, it seemed like he was just trying to hurry the lynch along without discussion.

I'm also suspicious of everyone who wasn't voting for Budja, since budja was a scum PR - don, fhq, plonky, and Goat. Goat stuck out to me because he was advocating wanting to vote, and didn't see the merit in discussion until deadline. It seemed the reason he didn't vote was because he didn't want to do anything to spotlight himself the next day (like hammering when the town wanted to continue discussion.)

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OK, read a little farther. Skipped ahead to the part where Jebus claimed Doc.

Only reason I can see Jebus-scum claiming doc there is because once don claimed watcher, and assuming SL is really a doc, there is no way for the mafia to kill either of them without sacrificing one of their own (SL protects Don, don watches SL). Only thing that confuses me is that Jebus wanting to lynch me/DO doesn't fit with what I would expect Jebus-scum trying to acomplish by claiming doc. Perhaps its just a way to spend another day and save the 2-doc drama for tomorrow? Maybe he thinks the mafia can use the doc doc watcher string to their advantage tonight, knowing one of their own is in there?

Lets suppose we ignore the 2 docs for the time being, knowing there has to be at least 1 more scum in the game - probably 2 if the 2 docs are real. Who else could be scum?

To be quite honest, I'm really quite confused in this whole mess, between the rhyming at the beginning, and the dueling doc claims. I need more time to think this through and read some more.

[Spolium]

Looking back at the lynch wagon, Spolium didn't jump on until after Budja's self vote. Seems like a safe time to jump on the wagon. I'm equally suspicious of millar13's vote on budja - To me, it seemed like he was just trying to hurry the lynch along without discussion.

I voted Budja HERE, a few pages before he even fakeclaimed. I unvoted following his claim, and when I next checked the thread Spring had CC'd and Budja had effectively scumclaimed.

How did you miss this? Didn't you consider checking my posts in isolation to confirm my votes before the one you pointed out?

[Rhinox]

How did you miss this? Didn't you consider checking my posts in isolation to confirm my votes before the one you pointed out?

Oh, sorry. Yeah I missed that. I looked at the mod post for the final lynch wagon. Thanks for clearing that up.

[sekinj]

@RC - if it is not beleiveable to have 2 town docs, then one of spring or jeb must be lying. so why should we ignore them for the lynch today if that is the case?

[Lynx The Antithesis]

If one of the two docs is scum I'd bank on Spring. But for today I think we should let Spring, Don, and Jebus live for continued observation purposes. If the scum leave them alive just because they are linked to a decent amount of suspicion, it will work poorly for them in the long run anyway (they're already at a disadvantage without their rolebocker). I think at least 2 out of the three of the power role claims are valid and the continued speculation about last night's actions is only getting more confusing . So I think we can find another scum outside of the three of them. I'm still much in favor of a FHQ lynch today.

[Goatrevolt]

HoHum, null tell.

Ice9 rang town

, millar13's provocative comment about being scum is still ringing in my ears, HoHum is yet to post.

Really? On what basis? I seem to recall you being fairly suspicious of him.

If you're looking for the most likely to kill Spolium based on the criteria "Who Spolium was on to", why would you pick me over Ice or yourself?

Regardless of whether it is valid or not, why the heck would I argue that

I

would be the most likely to shoot Spolium?

And, erm, Ice has long since left this game. I don't think Plonky/DO acted like Ice did at all.

In other words, I don't get this comment of yours at all.

The point of that comment was that Spolium wasn't really gunning for me at all yesterday. Your argument was that I would kill Spolium to escape his pressure, and my retort is essentially "what pressure?" You're correct in that you killing him wouldn't make sense from your own perspective, but from my perspective, I see a couple of targets who would be more likely to make that kill than myself. Also, Plonky/DO replaced Magisterrain, not Ice. Ice's replacement is Millar/Hohum.

Question: theoretically, if there were two killing parties and they both shot the same person that was being protected (e.g. spring) would a Doctor protect against both kills?

Typically, no. Generally a doctor prevents 1 kill attempt, and multiple kill attempts on that target will result in one protected, and one successful.

[don_johnson]

@ don - what do you think of budja's reference to a singular buddy?

the wifomic circumstances surrounding such a statement lead me to ignore it. i believe the statement is useless, however, until tomorrow, we should not be discounting the scenarios that have been discussed.

[Spolium]

Ice9 rang town

Really? On what basis? I seem to recall you being fairly suspicious of him.

I was, but in retrospect I think I overreacted. Reading him in the context of Budja's flip makes a big difference too.

[Goatrevolt]

I'm also suspicious of everyone who wasn't voting for Budja, since budja was a scum PR - don, fhq, plonky, and Goat. Goat stuck out to me because he was advocating wanting to vote, and didn't see the merit in discussion until deadline. It seemed the reason he didn't vote was because he didn't want to do anything to spotlight himself the next day (like hammering when the town wanted to continue discussion.)

Calling me out for not being on Budja when he was hammered is pretty weak. For all intensive purposes my vote was on him. I didn't see the merit in additional discussion; however, I wasn't going to hammer him if the rest of the game wanted to discuss. I distinctly remember saying that I was going to hold off for X period of time and allow for discussion, and then I would hammer at that point, to avoid any possible no lynchings due to waiting around. If I didn't want to spotlight myself, I wouldn't have said that I think we should just lynch Budja and end the day in the first place. That was contrary to popular opinion and drew me some negative attention as it was.

Rhinox, it looks like you are just going back and looking at the vote count at the end of the day and basing your suspicion off of that. You're missing a lot of the context. The end of the day votecount is pretty meaningless, considering Budja claimed scum prior to that point. What's more important is the vote count prior to his claim.

Ice9 rang town

Really? On what basis? I seem to recall you being fairly suspicious of him.

I was, but in retrospect I think I overreacted. Reading him in the context of Budja's flip makes a big difference too.

Ice9 "rang" town implies past tense. Reading that gives the distinct impression that you believed him to be town back then, as in, Ice9's posts themselves made you believe he was town at the time. Changing your mind on Budja's flip is reasonable, but that wouldn't make him have "rung town" to you. I would expect you to say something like "Based on Budja's flip I believe Ice to be town" or "rereading Ice I was less suspicious of him" etc. The way you said it is deceptive.

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I'm suspicious of Spolium, based on day 1 stances, his stances on Spring's claim today, and the bit I posted above, but I think it would be best to hold off on him until we clear up the doc business, in case Spring did successfully protect a kill attempt on him.

I think our best bet is holding off on lynching a claimed doc as well as don for today. Give it at least a night, and see what info results from it and make a more educated decision then.

sekinj, Rhinox, and fhq would be my top 3 choices for a lynch at this point. I'll review each and decide this weekend sometime.

[Spolium]

Ice9 "rang" town implies past tense. Reading that gives the distinct impression that you believed him to be town back then, as in, Ice9's posts themselves made you believe he was town at the time. Changing your mind on Budja's flip is reasonable, but that wouldn't make him have "rung town" to you. I would expect you to say something like "Based on Budja's flip I believe Ice to be town" or "rereading Ice I was less suspicious of him" etc. The way you said it is deceptive.

Actually, I was already leaning away from Ice being scum before the end of D1. By the time D2 started he had been replaced by the bizarre millar13 and didn't really come to mind after that, so it didn't occur to me to mention him again.

As for the whole "rung" thing, I think you're reaching a bit there; I was writing the post in the context of my re-read. Most other things were present tense, my read on Ice9 was past tense. I can see why it stands out, but I don't see how you can consider this deceptive.

[don_johnson]

Mod: can we get an update and a vote count? are we waiting on a replacement or no?

[fhqwhgads]

I have to say, while I am uncomfortable with the 2 doc theory, the only way for it not to be true in my mind (and you can correct me if you think I'm wrong) is that both of them had chance to communicate outside of the thread to confirm their rhyme schemes. This almost certainly would mean they both are scum.

Three scum claiming doc in one game without a real counterclaim? That's just TOO far fetched to me. All those pushing that the 2 doc claim is false should elaborate on how they think this could be possible.

[sekinj]

they wouldn't have HAD to communicate outside the thread. they could have each just accepted what the other person said. but that would mean that they are both lying which would be a strong indication they are both scum.

However, I think they could also easily both be docs, one town doc, one scum doc, and the mod used the same/very similar rhyme for their PMs

[RedCoyote]

@RC - if it is not beleiveable to have 2 town docs, then one of spring or jeb must be lying. so why should we ignore them for the lynch today if that is the case?

Kind of expanding on what Lynx said.

Because I think if we leave them alive then we pressure the scum into making a serious decision.

If they shoot the real Doctor, then they're in trouble tomorrow, but if they leave them alive, then they risk another no kill. It's a lose/lose situation, and I want to see where it breaks.

Let's say, hypothetically, we lynch the real Doctor. Further, let's say that don is actually a Watcher. We lose two (and likely all) of our power roles in one fell swoop, and there is still very, very, very likely going to be another scum running around (aside from the one who cc'd the Doctor claim).

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Your argument was that I would kill Spolium to escape his pressure, and my retort is essentially "what pressure?"

I don't want to get into too much WIFOM territory here, but who else, would you argue, showed any sort of outward suspicions of you this game?

You were right to say me, but, again, this is just an argument we'll necessarily go round-and-round on. I would never say that it's valid because of the information that I have and, likewise, you would never claim that you're a valid suspect because of the information you have. If someone else had brought up this point, say Hohum, then this would be more valid.

To put it a bit more simply, you shouldn't expect me to throw myself into the mix of "who would likely want to off Spolium", and, moreover, I'm not specifically arguing that you should either. My point was more for the town in general to look at.

Also, Plonky/DO replaced Magisterrain, not Ice. Ice's replacement is Millar/Hohum.

Fine, but the that's beside the point.

Typically, no. Generally a doctor prevents 1 kill attempt, and multiple kill attempts on that target will result in one protected, and one successful.

Ok, that's what I thought. In that case, I think it's certainly a little harder to argue for multiple killing parties.

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sekinj, Rhinox, and fhq would be my top 3 choices for a lynch at this point. I'll review each and decide this weekend sometime.

I concur with these choices.

I'd even go so far as to argue that more important than the lynch (especially if we decide to leave the claimed roles alive) is how the town decides on where the powers should be used.

Half of me thinks it's wise to concoct some sort of grand scheme for the night actions, half of me thinks it would best be left to the player's discretion. I feel like, no matter how we configure it, the scum will be in on our plans and will know how to take advantage of the situation.

So, and I know spring won't have and problem with this (lol), it might be best that spring, Jebus, and don stay quiet and all ultimately make their own decisions about who to use their powers on. This way the scum can't interfere and wind up sacrificing one of their own to knock out two power roles (which would defeat the purpose of leaving them all alive today anyhow).

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I have to say, while I am uncomfortable with the 2 doc theory, the only way for it not to be true in my mind (and you can correct me if you think I'm wrong) is that both of them had chance to communicate outside of the thread to confirm their rhyme schemes. This almost certainly would mean they both are scum.

Part of me wants to say you are just saying that to stir up more confusion into the situation. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt though fhq.

I don't think anyone has mentioned that possibility (that spring, Jebus, and Budja are all scum) until you did just now. I know both me and Goat have made it clear that we think one of the Doctor claims is scum, and sekinj has said that she thinks they're both Docs.

May I refer you to this middle section of my post 606 with the question of how you don't think my 2nd and 3rd options are valid?

[TonyMontana]

Mod: can we get an update and a vote count? are we waiting on a replacement or no?

We are waiting for a replacement, and deadline is not set until I can get one. Playin it by ear, as always -.-
In other news, I see just by looking at this page that a slew of prods are in order.

Alternatively, you people could lynch someone who I can use as replacement

[Rhinox]

Sorry I haven't been more active as of late. Been busy, and replacing in is tough work.

sekinj, Rhinox, and fhq would be my top 3 choices for a lynch at this point. I'll review each and decide this weekend sometime.

I guess if this is what people are thinking, it would be prudent for me to first examine sekinj and fhq and see if either of them seem scummy to me.

Calling me out for not being on Budja when he was hammered is pretty weak. For all intensive purposes my vote was on him. I didn't see the merit in additional discussion; however, I wasn't going to hammer him if the rest of the game wanted to discuss. I distinctly remember saying that I was going to hold off for X period of time and allow for discussion, and then I would hammer at that point, to avoid any possible no lynchings due to waiting around. If I didn't want to spotlight myself, I wouldn't have said that I think we should just lynch Budja and end the day in the first place. That was contrary to popular opinion and drew me some negative attention as it was.

Rhinox, it looks like you are just going back and looking at the vote count at the end of the day and basing your suspicion off of that. You're missing a lot of the context. The end of the day votecount is pretty meaningless, considering Budja claimed scum prior to that point. What's more important is the vote count prior to his claim.

This seems a bit overdefensive, considering all I did was note something that seemed slightly odd to me in my first skim of a reread.

Nevertheless, what I felt like was you weren't ready to vote Budja until after he basically claimed scum, and then you were all for it, but you wanted the town's blessing before placing your vote.

It could be I've missed some key points - in all likeliness I probably have - but until I have a coherent idea of everything thats happened in this game, I can either sit here and say nothing, or put out little blurps of things that stick out to me. That was one of the things. Doesn't mean I automatically view it as scummy, or that I want you lynched for it, but it seemed like something important to discuss IMO.

-----------------------------------

anyways, hopefully I'll be able to post some thoughts on sekinj, fhq or both by tomorrow sometime.

[Rhinox]

By the way, Spolium and anyone else, has your opinion of DO's play in this game changed any as a result of reading his comments in the 2 games I posted?

[Lynx The Antithesis]

However, I think they could also easily both be docs, one town doc, one scum doc, and the mod used the same/very similar rhyme for their PMs

I don't see this as a likely scenario. You're suggesting that the scum doc countered the scum role blocker? Or that the scum doc countered the real doc on day 2? The first situation seems unlikely because then both scum power roles would be outed and under severe scrutiny. The second is also unlikely because I highly doubt that the scum would trade their mafia doc for the real doc after losing a member day 1. Both just seem so improbable to me. I just don't see any strong possiblity of a scum doc being one of our claimed docs.

Goat 639 wrote:
sekinj, Rhinox, and fhq would be my top 3 choices for a lynch at this point. I'll review each and decide this weekend sometime.

I concur with these choices.

I can accept that these are the main three lynch candidates. But I'm curious to see the case on Sekinj. I haven't seen anything terribly scummy coming from her. I'm neutral on her right now. And for Rhinox I feel like the only suspicion against him lies on DO's plan to lynch Spring which I feel could have just been a very poor course of action from a townie.

I'd even go so far as to argue that more important than the lynch (especially if we decide to leave the claimed roles alive) is how the town decides on where the powers should be used.

Half of me thinks it's wise to concoct some sort of grand scheme for the night actions, half of me thinks it would best be left to the player's discretion. I feel like, no matter how we configure it, the scum will be in on our plans and will know how to take advantage of the situation.

So, and I know spring won't have and problem with this (lol), it might be best that spring, Jebus, and don stay quiet and all ultimately make their own decisions about who to use their powers on. This way the scum can't interfere and wind up sacrificing one of their own to knock out two power roles (which would defeat the purpose of leaving them all alive today anyhow).

I definitely think it'd be best for them to leave their decisions in the dark as well. This way the scum will have to deliberate whether they should go for the power roles or leave them be to avoid having their kill blocked or their actions watched. This will keep the scum guessing rather than the town outline their plans for the night. Though it is harder then for us to gain info, but it's worth it I feel.

By the way, Spolium and anyone else, has your opinion of DO's play in this game changed any as a result of reading his comments in the 2 games I posted?

I read the game with the vig Darkdude, mason Xdaamno, etc. In a way it does lessen any second thoughts I have from that plan he proposed(I wasn't too suspicious of that in the first place). It seemed typical of his playstyle. Alot of his ideas were bizzare in that game as well and he turned out to be the cop. The thing I found suspicious was his L-1 vote more due to the little reason he provided and the fact that Budja was most likely becoming dead weight at that point. I see a good bus possibility there.

[RedCoyote]

By the way, Spolium and anyone else, has your opinion of DO's play in this game changed any as a result of reading his comments in the 2 games I posted?

I was never huge on DO to begin with, but I do find it somewhat odd that he had proposed lynching spring before Jebus had cc'd her.

I don't know, and I mean that in as literal of a sense as possible. I literally don't know what to make of that coincidence. I've never encountered such a situation. Knowing personally that you're very unlikely to flake on us the way that magi/Ploky/DO has done, I'm more inclined to keep you alive and see whether or not we can find more traditional tells on you.

Since we have the breathing room, it may help to lynch you, but I personally don't take that position.

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Mod

, the only person that needs replacing is Hohum right? I'd help you if I could, but that slot is still in my town-sided area.