War in Heaven II - Spirit of Vengeance (Over!)

[Mr. Flay]

Clarification: Actions which have no effect (healing someone who is already at their maximum, hurting the dead) will

waste

your action. In the Marathon Day game I was lenient because of the timeframe.

Rescinded because of game speed.

FIRST DAMAGE TALLY OF THE TWELFTH ÆON

Albert B. Rampage, Cybele, Nuwen, Seraphim, Shinnen_no_Me, populartajo, q21, roflcopter, WaltWishbone, and Xylthixlm are at 1 HP above their normal maximum.
Drench, DrippingGoofball, Giuseppe, Hoopla, Juls, Tenchi, The Fonz, vIQleS, zwetschenwasser are all at normal HP.
Kinetic is down 1 HP.

[roflcopter]

i wish everyone hadn't wasted their action healing people so they could be hurting kinetic instead

[Xylthixlm]

Oh yeah. Xyl is suggesting we finish off everyone that loses a

bit

lot of health instead of

spreading around the joy pain

letting the scum choose which ones to finish. The he suggests we

cut down on the information gathering

gather information as fast as possible. You know, to hurt the scum.

Perfectly normal.

Fixed.

[Xylthixlm]

i wish everyone hadn't wasted their action healing people so they could be hurting kinetic instead

Sorry. I wasn't sure Kinetic was scum yet and didn't want to wait any longer to use my action.

Unfortunately I think if we try to kill Kinetic, zwet will heal him, so we might need to kill zwet first.

[Xylthixlm]

Missed this because of the new page.

Xyl, you didn't have to agree with the mass-heal plan or heal me but to hurt me for no apparent reason just shows that you are reckless (which is anti-town).

Vote: Xyl

Wow, I've found three scum already. DGB will be proud.

[Drench]

Oh yeah. Xyl is suggesting we finish off everyone that loses a

bit

lot of health instead of

spreading around the joy pain

letting the scum choose which ones to finish. The he suggests we

cut down on the information gathering

gather information as fast as possible. You know, to hurt the scum.

Perfectly normal.

Fixed.

Thanks for that. Now could you be a dear and fix up the glaring holes in your strategy? For example, how is advocating killing off anyone who loses a lot of health regardless of circumstance good for the town? How is it that quick days will resolve in

more

information? Could you answer?

[Xylthixlm]

Drench, maybe you missed this post.

This game is pretty much vanilla nightless with a strange voting mechanic. As long as we don't bring people down to low HP without killing them, or take so long that the scum get enough "rage points" to kill someone with lots of HP, the town can completely control the order people die in. Vanilla nightless is usually biased towards the town; there's no reason we should lose.

It looks like the once-per-24-hours limit isn't enough to seriously slow down the speed at which the town can kill people, but if there are a lot of people sitting around doing nothing or (even worse) healing everyone who gets hurt, it might be a problem. Automatic healing is a

horrible

idea and will just slow the game down, which gives the scum an advantage.

Those things are good ideas because

they let the town completely control the order in which people die

. That's exactly what the scum doesn't want to happen.

[Juls]

Oh you found three scum did you? Please...enlighten me on what it was that I did that was so scummy in all 2 posts I made before your hurt.

[Xylthixlm]

Oh you found three scum did you? Please...enlighten me on what it was that I did that was so scummy in all 2 posts I made before your hurt.

You mean the

three

posts before I called you scum.

[Xylthixlm]

Or are you somehow assuming that everyone else will be too stupid to notice that the post where I called your scum quoted your THIRD (non-confirm-stage) post?

[Kinetic]

Ha. Its kind of funny, I just did some math:

Assuming the lowest HP total is 7, all players can have at least 8 HP.

Assuming everything that is said about rage mechanics is true in this game, that means at most scum can only hold up to 3 rage points.

Assuming Scum have 4 or 5 players, at BEST they can only kill one person out right and wound a second.

Assuming scum is 6 or 7 players, at BEST they can only kill 2 players outright...

Interesting...

[Kinetic]

Also, jut to put it out there, if scum "try" to kill someone and fail because we heal them in time, most likely this was a feint.

I know if I was scum there would never be a chance for someone to survive a rage dump, so I think this whole "saving a contingent for healing" stuff is a load of bullshit.

[vIQleS]

the more you try to slander me, the more it will not work

Technically that was liable - because it was written. It is, of course, only liable if its not true. I'm just saying...

Assuming everything that is said about rage mechanics is true in this game, that means at most scum can only hold up to 3 rage points.

Did someone say that? Because I don't remember anyone else saying that... I'm going to bed - can someone check this please.

Blah blah blah

I'm not going to argue the 75% crap anymore. I've answered the question and if you really need to grasp at straws at this point then you're out of your tiny little minds.

I'm not going to be around tomorrow - rehearsal in the morning and filming in the afternoon (2 different things)... If there's any way, I'll try to check in at about 1440 - JIC there's hurting to be done.

[Kinetic]

Oh and here is the scum PM from the other game

In addition to your usual powers, the force of your betrayal and anger give you strength. Every Sunday at noon (server time), you will receive 1 Rage Point that you may use in a secret attack by PMing me with a player's name. This damage will be reflected in the next damage tally, but not associated with your name. You may store them up, to a maximum of 3. If you are killed/cast out, you lose any remaining points.

You begin the game with 8 HP. You win if all loyal angels are killed, and at least one fallen angel survives. You may talk to your fellow (living) fallen angels outside of the game thread at any time, since this game is Nightless. If you are killed/cast out, stop talking.

[The Fonz]

I suggest to avoid the general lowering of health, we use a system where someone needs to gain the pledged support of at least one other player (committing to hurting them if you do) before doing any hurting. Something like this:

Call intent to hurt *Name*

Then someone else needs to post

I'm with you, *Name!*

I would also propose not healing anyone outside of the start-of-day mass heals, UNLESS they are hurt in contravention of the above.


On claims: The only players who will be endangered by that low level of damage are vanillas- who claiming won't save anyway. So there's no point there.

Perhaps we should make another rule of sorts, Once you harm someone, for the time being, you do not harm them again. I'm trying to think of a way of wording it, but this system is very unique.

This is unbelievably stupid.

-.- Got it. You realize I HATE being called stupid right?

Stop it now. Explain yourself. Why are my ideas stupid but yours are perfect? How do we even KNOW there is a rage like mechanic in this game like the last one? Hell I can think of 3 or 4 different mechanics which are similar but work on different principals other than time (such as, 1 rage every time someone is killed, or 1 rage every time one of them is harmed, etc etc)

It's the argument, not you, which is called stupid.

But the idea is this: you shouldn't be hurting anyone unless you want them dead. If you want them dead, then placing artificial restrictions will only harm that cause, and lead to more dragged-out days. If I read it right, you're trying to spread out the hurting. This only makes lurking more detrimental to the town.

Though kinetic's point about not assuming that the setup is exactly the same is warranted.

Everyone:

Whats wrong with a fake voting system?

I can keep up with the fake votecounts.
We treat this game as a normal game and we avoid hurting someone that could be town.

Vote : Kinetic.

Pussy. You can't make an omelette without breaking a few eggs.

i did read the thread thanks

i am in favor of everyone who's pussyfooting around with fake votes just hurting him dead instead.

I endorse the above product or service.

I need a damage count to know who I can heal.

Any roads, I agree that Kinetic's opinion are rather anti-townie. In a normal mafia game with 9 players, it's already hard to get a general concensus, so why should be any different here? If a group of people think someone is definitively scum, why shouldn't they be able to lynch him/her?

Also, populartajo, why are you voting for Kinetic?

Another thing: though I don't like much the fake vote system, I'll go with it for now in a way to show my opinion towards Kinetic:

Fake vote: Kinetic

I smell middle-of-the road scum.

Heal: Seraphim.

Heal me back!

Also,

Random anything at this point has a 75% chance of hitting town.

How can you be so sure? That's a pretty solid number, you know. The only way you would know that is that you know how much scum there are, hence, you must be a scum as well.

GAHHHHH! REEEEEEEEEEAAAAAAAAAAACH!

Call intent to hurt Shinnen no me

OTOH, Kinetic's willingness to put himself front and centre looks town, and he seems sincere, even if wrong.

Oh, and with no actual votes, FOSes are EVEN more pointless than usual.

Here is a list already in page 6.

Prob Town

ABR
Rolf
Cybele
q21
Seraph

Neutral

DGB
Tenchi
Xyl
The rest.

Prob scum

Hoopla
Viqles
Shinnen
Kinetic

LOATP are antitown.

Also, can anyone tell me how strong the rage point attacks have been previously?

What the heck? Why on earth did you hurt Juls? Did you miss the agreement that rage points can be less effective if everyone is healthier?

Heal: Juls

Vote: Xyl

He saw it; he disagreed.

RIGHT. BIG CAPS LOCK BIT BECAUSE THIS IS IMPORTANT. THE LAST FEW PAGES JUST REMIND ME OF MAD I WHEN THE TOWN ALL GOT MAD AND TURNED ON EACH OTHER BECAUSE THEY DISAGREED OVER GAME THEORY, WHILST THE SCUM LURKED THROUGH.

My preference is for a Shinnen kill as she's just done enough to look like contributing without drawing attention, and her arguments are bollocks. If anyone will join me ('I'm with you, Fonzie') I'll hurt her. Failing that, I'll take out any other noncontributor.

[Nuwen]

I suggest to avoid the general lowering of health, we use a system where someone needs to gain the pledged support of at least one other player (committing to hurting them if you do) before doing any hurting. Something like this:

Call intent to hurt *Name*

Then someone else needs to post

I'm with you, *Name!*

I don't think this is any more ideal - I see no reason why a large scum team wouldn't pair off and cycle through proposals/agreements until they've placed a player in kill range. This is a vapid effort to organize hurt actions; it doesn't actually benefit the town. In fact, it gives scum

more

room to throw out hurt actions because they'll be inherently buddied with another player. "Well, confirmed town x agreed with my hurt..."

RIGHT. BIG CAPS LOCK BIT BECAUSE THIS IS IMPORTANT. THE LAST FEW PAGES JUST REMIND ME OF MAD I WHEN THE TOWN ALL GOT MAD AND TURNED ON EACH OTHER BECAUSE THEY DISAGREED OVER GAME THEORY, WHILST THE SCUM LURKED THROUGH.

But I do agree with this. More consensus damage prz, less fabricating tells from theory disagreement.

Vote: Copter

(this is the part where he called me scum)

[The Fonz]

I suggest to avoid the general lowering of health, we use a system where someone needs to gain the pledged support of at least one other player (committing to hurting them if you do) before doing any hurting. Something like this:

Call intent to hurt *Name*

Then someone else needs to post

I'm with you, *Name!*

I don't think this is any more ideal - I see no reason why a large scum team wouldn't pair off and cycle through proposals/agreements until they've placed a player in kill range. This is a vapid effort to organize hurt actions; it doesn't actually benefit the town. In fact, it gives scum

more

room to throw out hurt actions because they'll be inherently buddied with another player. "Well, confirmed town x agreed with my hurt..."

This is the thing though- we're not trying to stop people killing! If scum want to pair up together, and kill off innocents, that's pretty blatant. The point of that proposal is to stop people wasting their hurting on people that no-one else suspects, and ensure a degree of consolidation- if you want to hurt someone, you have to convince at least one other player to support you.

The biggest drag on the game will be healing- if one side are attacking a player, but his supporters are healing him, then nothing happens, whilst the rage points build up.

[Hoopla]

I suggest to avoid the general lowering of health, we use a system where someone needs to gain the pledged support of at least one other player (committing to hurting them if you do) before doing any hurting. Something like this:

Call intent to hurt *Name*

Then someone else needs to post

I'm with you, *Name!*

I don't think this is any more ideal - I see no reason why a large scum team wouldn't pair off and cycle through proposals/agreements until they've placed a player in kill range. This is a vapid effort to organize hurt actions; it doesn't actually benefit the town. In fact, it gives scum

more

room to throw out hurt actions because they'll be inherently buddied with another player. "Well, confirmed town x agreed with my hurt..."

This is the thing though- we're not trying to stop people killing! If scum want to pair up together, and kill off innocents, that's pretty blatant. The point of that proposal is to stop people wasting their hurting on people that no-one else suspects, and ensure a degree of consolidation- if you want to hurt someone, you have to convince at least one other player to support you.

The biggest drag on the game will be healing- if one side are attacking a player, but his supporters are healing him, then nothing happens, whilst the rage points build up.

This is why the fake voting system is justified - we can come to a majority lynch and hurt them in bulk. This is a safe, effective way of killing and doesn't allow a rage dump later in the game.

Mindless hurting on theory disagreement, or even scumminess in general isn't going to work. There's obviously two schools of thought here - but one is going to destroy the town and make us easy to be picked off if we conform with it. Stop hurting and start voting.

[q21]

I like the post rate of the game so far. Here are my comments on the game.

i did read the thread thanks

i am in favor of everyone who's pussyfooting around with fake votes just hurting him dead instead.

The problem is that if someone gets hurt 5 times, say, and then people decide they don't want to kill that person they either end up left on half life and an easy target for scum or other people have to use up their powers to heal them again.

speaking of organize, i'm organizing a brute squad, and inducting the following obviously town people into it immediately: abr, xyl, dgb, and tajo (if he'll accept). we should all agree on one person and put them down. over and over, until we've killed all the scum.

Even if all those people are town having a small portion of the players go off and play separately to the rest is bad enough. If one of them's scum you've given them an huge opportunity - and it isn't difficult to look very townie as scum at the beginning of a game.

All in all I don't really approve of rolfcopter's play, but copter reminds me of Coron in the original War in Heaven. Coron was town.

I'm a vig-day rolecop

You do realise that in this game this translates to Fallen Ophan, right?

One thing I am not clear about in the rules is how time works in this set-up? In otherwords, do we have 24 hours from Mr. Flay's post to hurt/heal someone 1 time? Tomorrow by 7am? Also if we dont use a hurt/heal does it carry over to the next 24 hour period?

From experience in the last game: You hurt/heal refreshes 24 hours after your last hurt/heal. Regardless of Flay's posts.

Note of Hoopla. On whom I very much like me vote.

ABR: Thanks for your summary - you put together a case weightier than expected, but I think you're exaggerating what to me looks merely like a strategy disagreement.

I'm more inclined to put my vote on roflcopter. The go in and hurt 'em straight away tactic isn't going to work if everyone plays that way - we're just weakening ourselves unnecessarily. I also want to echo Nuwen's sentiments in

116

, in regards to conclusive claims. It kind of irks me and provides a get out clause if nobody probes, or follows them up.

Vote: roflcopter

Shows the reasoning ability to know that just hurting people is a bad thing, even votes roflcopter for it... but her first non-confirmation post.

Good luck everyone!

So, I'm not super familiar with what the most sensible play is when it comes to hurting and healing, but from what I've read of the previous versions of these games, it's possible scum accrue extra damage/powers over time. I think it's in our interest to play this game in a relatively quick fashion.

Hurt: DrippingGoofball

Hi!

Scummy hypocrite much.

[Hoopla]

ABR: Thanks for your summary - you put together a case weightier than expected, but I think you're exaggerating what to me looks merely like a strategy disagreement.

I'm more inclined to put my vote on roflcopter. The go in and hurt 'em straight away tactic isn't going to work if everyone plays that way - we're just weakening ourselves unnecessarily. I also want to echo Nuwen's sentiments in

116

, in regards to conclusive claims. It kind of irks me and provides a get out clause if nobody probes, or follows them up.

Vote: roflcopter

Shows the reasoning ability to know that just hurting people is a bad thing, even votes roflcopter for it... but her first non-confirmation post.

Good luck everyone!

So, I'm not super familiar with what the most sensible play is when it comes to hurting and healing, but from what I've read of the previous versions of these games, it's possible scum accrue extra damage/powers over time. I think it's in our interest to play this game in a relatively quick fashion.

Hurt: DrippingGoofball

Hi!

Scummy hypocrite much.

I was wondering when someone would bring that up. This was the second post into the game, some time before the theory debate. I acknowledge I was wrong to do so, without thinking it through.

[roflcopter]

i'm with you, arthur fonzarelli

[Juls]

You mean the three posts before I called you scum.

You hurt me after I made two nonconfirmation related posts.

Using the fonz system:

Call intent to hurt Xyl

(when my recharge is ready)

[Nuwen]

What're everyone's thoughts on Seraphim blades? It makes most sense to use the blade every cooldown since it allows for 1 1/3 average damage per day versus 1 damage without using the blade. In the last game, it was suggested that

all

players mention a blade in order to mask the Seraphim's identity. Are we going to do something similar?

Note: if we disguise extra town damage, we also risk masking the source of rage damage.

[Shinnen_no_Me]

Random anything at this point has a 75% chance of hitting town.

How can you be so sure? That's a pretty solid number, you know. The only way you would know that is that you know how much scum there are, hence, you must be a scum as well.

GAHHHHH! REEEEEEEEEEAAAAAAAAAAACH!

Call intent to hurt Shinnen no me

...

My preference is for a Shinnen kill as she's just done enough to look like contributing without drawing attention, and her arguments are bollocks. If anyone will join me ('I'm with you, Fonzie') I'll hurt her. Failing that, I'll take out any other noncontributor.

Ah, you see that, but you don't see this:

speaking of organize, i'm organizing a brute squad, and inducting the following obviously town people into it immediately: abr, xyl, dgb, and tajo (if he'll accept). we should all agree on one person and put them down. over and over, until we've killed all the scum.

Obviously? Maybe for you, but not for me. You and those four players can as well be scum buddies trying to pass as townies together. In fact, the way that you speak so sure about their alignment makes me think that at least you are scum. Any player who let the game be ruled by a minority of "selected" player obviously wants the town to lose. Discussion in mafia games has a purpose, you know? And that's preventing scum like you trick town with your so-called-obviously-fake pro-town strategy.

Vote: Rolf

Convenient, isn't it? Rofl with his aggressive way of playing will just make the town lose. If the town major weapon is discussion, how come he just want to throw it away by saying who are scum and who is sure town? And you don't find that suspicious? And you say that my arguments are bollocks?

Rofl believes he's god, and that he can say with 100% sure accuracy the alignment of other players. What does that mean? From a themed point of view, he's obvious a fallen angel. From a mechanics point of view, he's scum. And yet, you don't see that... Funny.

Btw, I also don't understand why you meant with that "scream" previous to your call on intent to hurt me. If you have reasons, post them in form of readable comments. Not all of us speak the language of gorillas. ¬_¬

[DrippingGoofball]

Hush now. I have declared rofl town, so the matter is settled. Dissent will not be tolerated.