Warning, big catch-up post ahead... K, so I had some time to get together my thoughts on the Isacc case.
Just so you know, I'm coming at this from the view that while Isacc has done some stupid stuff in the game, it hasn't necessarily made him scummy, and I don't find that he joined the Darox wagon as late as everyone keeps saying (Sly and Plum were later).
This is all in reference to Kmd's case
here.
Kmd4390 wrote:-
Stays in random phase as long as possible
-
Yeah, I brought up something similar at the time. This is one of the points I agree with, although on its own it isn't incredibly damning at this point.
Kmd4390 wrote:-
"Admitting" points
Same post, "Yes Caf, you are well to point out I haven't done much yet. I admit, I was a little lost by the randomness of it all for awhile, and hadn't quite caught up."- Admitting it doesn't make it any less true. This is an excellent way for scum to try and lessen points brought up on them. They can say, "Yes, I lurked", "Yes, I lied", "Yes, I fucked up", but the truth is admitting it doesn't mean it never happened. It just means you are defending it differently. This point can still be used even if you admit it's true.
I've seen this argument before, and I've been pulled up for doing something similar in other games (possibly even this game too)... my opinion of it is that while yes, it doesn't absolve you from whatever you're admitting, it doesn't really swing the other way and make you even more guilty either. Not everyone who 'admits' is scum. So, we have to look elsewhere for definite tells.
Kmd4390 wrote:
Bad Excuse
Also, "I was waiting for Imaginality's explanation of his vote, but I think i just figured it out."- This was your excuse for staying random. You were waiting for him to explain. What? Do you get random and joke around when a game is in LYLO and everyone is waiting for a player to respond? I don't. You could have done more while you waited.
Yeah, again, I think there are multiple explanations for this one. I know I've done "waiting on x" posts as both town and scum. If you look at Isacc's play from the viewpoint that he's probably scum, I can see how this might compound the case, but to me it just seems fairly subjective and null to me. That applies to quite a few things, so in order to prevent this post being a wall of text where I repeat myself over and over again, I'll skip to some of the juicier points of the case.
Kmd4390 wrote:
Distancing from Darox
Hm, I hadn't really considered the 'FoSing Darox without voting' behaviour before. The first instance is explainable (Isacc had missed a bit of Darox's explanation for voting), but the second one is more interesting: Isacc FoSes Darox in 273 for an unexplained vote, Darox never explains it or addresses said FoS, but Isacc seems to let it drop anyway. @
Isacc
: any explanation for that?
Isacc does continue to suspect Darox without voting for quite a long time, but like I said before, there are a couple of people who are worse culprits of that IMO, so there you go.
Kmd4390 wrote:
"I'm not scummy. Someone else did it too!"
a) Hascow calls you out and you literally say, "Plum did the same thing as me five posts above the one you're voting me over..... So why are you voting for me, but made no such comment to Plum? Scummy." (The dot dot dot is to note that I removed some of the post because it's not relevant.) So. You can't be scum because Plum did the same thing. Not only that, but Hascow is scummy for thinking you are scummy. Textbook OMGUS.
I think what Isacc says himself is not particularly reprehensible on its own, as it's essentially true (Plum did defend Kmd before isacc did). What the issue is here is that (as hascow said at the time) Isacc was ostensibly misrepresenting hascow's case, as he was suspecting Isacc not for a general defence of Kmd, but for a "chainsaw defence" where he attacks the attacker (dahill). @
Kmd
: you didn't really mention this aspect of the argument in your case. Do you think Isacc carried out a "chainsaw defence" and/or misrepresented hasd?
Kmd4390 wrote:
Extreme over defensiveness
a)We see this when Hascow votes you. You call his accusation "bull crap" and say it "pinged your scumdar like mad". You also toss out a "major FoS Has for a totally bull accusation and tunneling." which is hilarious because Hascow was far from tunneling.
b) Your post 19 is filled with caps, bold, profanity, and bad points. (Not that I have a problem with profanity. Just the way you used it looked over defensive.)
c)Not even gonna go into your response to my original suspicions again. Note that it's there though.
Leaving c) aside (you both get pretty aggressive at that one), I do find a) and b) to be fairly valid points. Posts such as 305 do contain empty displays of aggression that don't serve to further his logical arguments at all.
Kmd4390 wrote:
Ordering Des to die
Yeah, I gave my opinion of this one at the time... a dumb gambit to attempt, and didn't help the town, but doesn't necessarily make him scum. Sly's position of "gambits are never town" is foolish, IMO.
The other points I missed out are largely illustrations of Isacc's non-committal nature (not wanting to vote, refraining from making a lot of cases on people etc). Fair enough, but I don't really get that feeling from him myself. Meh.
Again, I can discern multiple points against Isacc, but they are all of a fairly minor nature - the overall, major picture doesn't make me feel that we should lynch him. I don't advocate getting him to claim at this point. Perhaps later on if he's still going to be the deadline lynch, but not yet.
---
Some comments on recent occurrences:
SlySly wrote:I want to see an example where a protown player called his actions, in game, a gambit. I have never seen a protown player do that before, ever.
Why must you continue to be so awkward? People gave you examples - just because there weren't links to them, doesn't prove you right.
SlySly wrote:Well, tyvm Plum, your helping Isacc defend himself is duly noted. I'm still not moving my vote.
Aaand it's the unwinnable scenario for everyone else. People don't post links, their opinions are useless; people post links, they are scummy for helping others' defences. This is not good scumhunting.
@
des
: Hi! What do you think of EK (the other player who is currently being voted, whom you haven't mentioned so far)?
Aside from a curious way of getting on the SlySly wagon (which I talked about in 515), I haven't found imaginality to have done much scummy stuff. Is there anything in particular I should be focusing on?
To summarise, my list of players looks something like this. Scum at the top:
Plum/Sly.
Isacc/EK.
Kmd.
Glorkdes/imaginality.
with hasd in some mystery position that not even I know.