Mini 757 - South Park Mafia (Game Over)

[dejkha]

I did answer the questions. Too bad if you don't like the answer.

7. Because I've played with him before and he was useful and logical player, so I figured if anyone would understand, it would be him.

What's more likely:

(a) that every player except for you is a close-minded fool, or
(b) you said something suspicious

First answer: A

Timmeh

.

Am I mistaken or did you not ask which was "more likely"? I'm not mistaken? Ok good, so stop using word play to make it seem like I made a statement I did not make.

Am I to understand that you are denying the value of taking your statements to their logical conclusions? Why is it a "reach" for me to do so should I be waiting for scum to say something suspicious outright?

Scum do say suspicious things outright, more often than not, I might add. They don't do it on purpose, but people rarely find scum by relying on implications (couple that with the rarity of actual town won games to make it even more unlikely) as much as you are.

You still haven't addressed my argument here - why imply uncertainty when confirming a successful post is a simple matter? How doing so might benefit scum is neither here nor there - my point is that it was a very odd thing to say.

I already said why I was posted in uncertainty. Why the hell are you arguing it if it's "just an odd thing to say"? If that's all it is, then just drop it. If you won't, I will.

[Spolium]

No, you didn't answer the questions. None of the following can be answered by "I can see why Spolium may have wanted an explanation", so stop stalling and answer them:

- How is it a given that caf was useful/logical, when the implicit implication was that you valued his open-mindedness?

- Why are you trying to equate agreement with dejkha "open-mindedness" to logic/usefulness?

- Why do you think I deserve scummy points for not assuming a connection between two different concepts?

Am I mistaken or did you not ask which was "more likely"? I'm not mistaken?

Your answer made clear that in your opinion, everyone who took post 38 to be suspicious is a "close minded fool".

people rarely find scum by relying on implications (couple that with the rarity of actual town won games to make it even more unlikely) as much as you are.

I don't rely on implications to catch scum - I catch scum by piecing together the implications of someone's statements and seeing whether those implications fit with their actions/words, or otherwise stand out. Right now, you stand out like crazy.

I already said why I was posted in uncertainty.

Oh yeah, I remember; I asked why you didn't post in certainty, you replied "

Because I didn't want to

". Correct? Or have you changed your answer since then?

[dejkha]

Your answer made clear that in your opinion, everyone who took post 38 to be suspicious is a "close minded fool".

Saying I made statements that I did not make. I hope people make note of that.

I don't rely on implications to catch scum - I catch scum by piecing together the implications of someone's statements and seeing whether those implications fit with their actions/words, or otherwise stand out. Right now, you stand out like crazy.

"I sound like crazy"? XD Best statement ever.

Oh yeah, I remember; I asked why you didn't post in certainty, you replied "

Because I didn't want to

". Correct? Or have you changed your answer since then?

What makes you think I've changed my answer?

[dejkha]

EBWOP: "

stand out like crazy"? XD Best statement ever."

Okie dokie then. Funny stuff.

[Spolium]

Saying I made statements that I did not make.

Evidence plz.

"I stand out like crazy"? XD Best statement ever.

What makes you think I've changed my answer?

It was a question, not a statement.

[charter]

Cartman: Sir, could you step out of the car, please?
Mr. McCormick: We're fine, officer.
Cartman: Anduuh who's, who's in here with you?
Mr. McCormick: Just me and my wife and my brother. And my wife's cousin and his son and my brother's girlfriend and our two kids-
Kenny: Hi, Cartman.
Mr. McCormick: -and my brother's girlfriend's mother, and this guy Bob who I met last year.
Cartman: [to the camera] Poor people tend tooo live in clusters.
Mr. McCormick: What? What did you say?
Cartman: Nothing- now, sir, is there some kind of uh-
Mrs. McCormick: I want him out of my house! He ain't worth a shit! He cain't even hold a fuckin' job!
Mr. McCormick: Shut up, bitch!
Cartman: Okay okay, let's try to watch the language: there's children present heuh.
Mrs. McCormick: He is a lazy-ass motherfucker!
Mr. McCormick: Look what she did to my fuckin' eye.
Mrs. McCormick: I'll do it again!!
Kenny and his brother: Eh-Mom hit Dad again!
Cartman: Now, thee first thing to do in domestic disturbance calls like this one is to just calm everybody down. Respect my authoriteh!!
Kenny: God-dammit, Cartman!
Mr. McCormick: Aagh!

Vote Count

dejkha - 4 (Spolium, RestFermata, Empking, nicoliosgotpolio)

Empking - 1 (Riceballtail)
Riceballtail - 1 (ZazieR)
caf19 - 1 (fuzzylightning)
nonny - 1 (dejkha)

Not Voting (4)

nonny
caf19
EsoMonty
GhostWriter

With 12 alive it takes 7 to lynch!
Deadline March 23rd.

@ Mod: prod fuzzylightning please?

Done

[dejkha]

Evidence plz.

Your post

It was a question, not a statement.

I know, but I want to know why you think I have. I haven't made any mention of a change in my answer.

[Spolium]

I didn't think you had changed your answer to that, but I asked in case I had missed it in your clusterfuck of non-defence and question dodging.

TIMMAAAAHH

[Spolium]

Timmmehhh

Evidence plz.

Your post

Cite specifically where I said that you made a statement which you did not make.

[dejkha]

"Your answer made clear that in your opinion, everyone who took post 38 to be suspicious is a 'close minded fool'."

[caf19]

Just to chip in on the 'buddying up to caf' issue, I immediately saw the initial comment as this:

Because I've played with him before and he was useful and logical player, so I figured if anyone would understand, it would be him.

which is what dej explained it as. Not that I'm trying to big myself up as being amazing and logical or anything, but I ICed a newbie game that had him in, and tried to fulfil my IC role of being helpful/objective, etc. So I assumed that's what dej was referring to. That doesn't form a part of my suspicions of dej. I, however, was not compelled by his 'praise' of me to show more sympathy towards his position (as my posting at the time showed).

Anyway...

I personally didn't notice that part either, but it doesn't change the fact that you brought it up, for essentially no point. Especially this point in the game.

^Doesn't that also seem like something she would think from reading "the post" the first time, rather than waiting until someone else found the question scummy? If she thought "the post" was as scummy as she made it look, she would not have waited until someone else brought it up.

This is intriguing, because I had a similar opinion - but on nico, who in my opinion is worse for doing this. In post 78, when the argument over "the post" had been going for some time, she says

What has really stuck out to me is dej's apparent liking of char claims.

Dej, what makes you think it's not a big deal?

which is a point that had been made many times in the thread - not only made, but built upon, with other arguments developing around it (what your intentions were in the first sentence of "the post", what your reactions to the suspicion of you signified etc). This very basic point seems to be committing the crime of following others' suspicions, in a more obvious and in my opinion suspicious way than nonny did. Nonny developed her own ideas on you subsequently; nico is yet to substantially do this. What do you think of that?

@ GhostWriter: despite dej being your top suspect, you haven't voted for him at any point. Why not? Fair enough, he was at L-2 some of the time, but not all the time.

@ EsoMonty and Rest: please come back? (

mod

, is it time for prods on these two yet?)

---

Here is everyone's post count so far, not including confirms.

dejkha - 48
Spolium - 45
nonny - 30
Empking - 11
nicoliosgotpolio - 11
caf19 - 9
ZaZier - 7
GhostWriter - 6
RestFermata - 6
Riceballtail - 6
EsoMonty - 5
fuzzylightning - 1

This leads me to worry... the dej/Spolium/nonny battle dominates the thread. Some of the less frequent posters have contributed their opinions properly, but others seem happy to sit back and watch a dej lynch succeed solely through its own inertia. We have a week (ish) to deadline, and need to hear from everyone, not just a few. It is also not particularly healthy if 100% of our discussion involves or is about dejkha, so I suggest everyone posts a scumlist of the top 3 or so players.

[charter]

Prodding EsoMonty and RestFermata.

[Spolium]

QUESTION TIME... timmehhh.

nonny - Discounting dej, who do you think looks scummy right now, and why?

nicoliosgotpolio - Is there anything at all that you think dej has explained adequately?

dejkha - See the first part of 201, those 3 questions are yours.

ZazieR - Please explain the comment "Deja Vu! I'll definitly remember this" from #114.

Riceballtail - Why does pressure to confirm your PR constitute a vote?

GhostWriter - Do you consider it beneficial to reveal a

full

list of one's suspects? Why?

caf19 - Who on the dejkha wagon do you think looks

least

scummy, and why?

EsoMonty - Dej mentioned this too, but I am also interested - what did you mean by "God help the town if Spolium is Mafia"?

Empking - What do you feel is the significance of RBT's reluctance to claim PR'd?

RestFermata - Following your period of limited access, what are your general impressions so far?

[Spolium]

"Your answer made clear that in your opinion, everyone who took post 38 to be suspicious is a 'close minded fool'."

Mmm. In what way did your answer

not

suggest that?

[Empking]

I'm not sure. I don't see why he'd be reluctant at all. I can only think he's scum faking who wanted an out. I'm not sure if that's the reason or that there's an explaination I haven't worked out.

[Spolium]

Just to chip in on the 'buddying up to caf' issue, I immediately saw the initial comment as this:

Because I've played with him before and he was useful and logical player, so I figured if anyone would understand, it would be him.

which is what dej explained it as. Not that I'm trying to big myself up as being amazing and logical or anything, but I ICed a newbie game that had him in, and tried to fulfil my IC role of being helpful/objective, etc. So I assumed that's what dej was referring to. That doesn't form a part of my suspicions of dej. I, however, was not compelled by his 'praise' of me to show more sympathy towards his position (as my posting at the time showed).

Duly noted. However, do you think it was reasonable of dejkha to expect others to make that connection?

[Spolium]

I'm not sure. I don't see why he'd be reluctant at all. I can only think he's scum faking who wanted an out. I'm not sure if that's the reason or that there's an explaination I haven't worked out.

Please elaborate further; you did, after all, make a point of stating that you were the strongest advocat for RBT to confirm her (his?) PR. How do you think RBT, as faking scum, would benefit from being awkward about that confirmation?

[Spolium]

Timmmaaaah balooobadooooRAAAAHH TIMMAH etc.

[Empking]

I think that scum would benefit by keeping their options open and I they could be awkward about it to distract the town from any more scummy thing they have done or as an excuse not to contribute (as RBT was doing).

[dejkha]

nico is yet to substantially do this. What do you think of that?

The thing with Nico is that, I've played with her before it a lot of the time this just seems to be what she does (making few posts, most of which reiterate what people already said), so I'm not gonna hold that against her completely. But as I said, her vote on me seemed uncalled for and without reasoning

As for the top 3 suspects thing you mentioned, I don' think that's wise. That could allow scum to adjust to who we find most suspicious and form a case of those people. I think Spolium's varied question list would be a better way to share that information without giving to much away.

Mmm. In what way did your answer not suggest that?

In the way that I'd answer a multiple choice question with the words "most likely" in the question. There's really no way around it. You're manipulating what I said to throw more suspicion my way.

[nonny]

I hate scumlists(not as much as townlists but stilll) and refuse to do it at this point. All they do is give mafia more info by showing in what order everyone suspects everyone else. If you can't tell who I suspect at this point then you are blind. Subsequently for spolium's question towards me, I don't think I would be able to do that in a matter I would be satisfied with since everyone else has too few posts, post would just be lurker scum points rather than from what they have said, which doesn't really work, IMHO.

Dej: so you feel that RBT's claim was appropriate? You feel that she was being wrongly pressured for such a claim?

That's all I have for now, I too want to hear from others.

[dejkha]

Dej: so you feel that RBT's claim was appropriate? You feel that she was being wrongly pressured for such a claim?

I got the impression that she was being pressuring for claiming and her attitude when doing it, correct?

The way I see it, the constant "m'kays" made it obvious (don't even bother bringing up about how I got on Spolium for this because I already said I didn't know what PR's were then). She seemed frustrated that she had to use the word and I highly doubt scum would take the chance at fakeclaiming (I don't think Mr. Mackey could even be bad, but it could happen) when the real character could be out there. I believe that she's more likely a vanilla townie than scum, but that doesn't excuse her from future suspicion, especially since she seems to be lurking for the most part.

[nonny]

So then you do feel she was being pressured into a full claim?

I personally don't see that, she was the one pointing out "hey others may have PRs too, mkay" then when someone said just spit it out either you have a PR or you don't that is just asking for a confirmation of a PR....not a full claim.

Also dejka, you were asked about claiming previously, opinion on that?

[Spolium]

I don't believe I said everyone who thought it was suspicious is close-minded.

-------------------------------------

is there

someone

with an ounce of open mindedness in them.

If there's anyone like that, I would expect it to be caf

6a. With regard to post 70 - you stated that "

depending on if

everyone

else seems to be as close minded as nonny, I may or may not change my vote to her

". How would the close(or open)-mindedness of others affect whether or not you change your vote on a particular player?

6a.

If

anyone

understand what I said

, I'd probably change my vote [..]

7. Because I've played with him before and he was useful and logical player,

so I figured if

anyone

would understand

, it would be him.

What's more likely:

(a) that

every player

except for you is a close-minded fool, or
(b) you said something suspicious

First answer: A

-------------------------------------------

You're manipulating what I said to throw more suspicion my way.

Manipulation, or basic reading comprehension? YOU DECIDE

[EsoMonty]

Sorry. I haven't posted. I see nothing in the thread to sway me in any direction.

I wonder why RBT felt the need to full claim when asking about a post restriction.

I wonder why fuzzylightening hasn't posted at all.

My post saying that was, you seemed in full attack mode. And you were doing a good job keeping at it. If you are mafia, I feel for us. I really do. It was an initial impression and I do like placing my initial impressions. And while nonny has piggy-backed, due in part to being a replacement, your initial detection hopes that this is not seeking false positives.

In fact, I have been wondering if the dej thing is a false positive. Besides his unwillness to expound in his own words as to why character claiming would be a bad idea.

I put it as too much information to be given to the mafia too early. We don't know what characters would be town vs mafia. And as someone pointed out charter would be the type to make it hard to tell just based on character claiming, which means that information is only really useful to the mafia.

vote: fuzzylightning

until he is replaced or posts.