Mini 727 - Mafia in Standardville - Game Over

[Danchaofan]

ooo claymore is hott!!!

vote:artem

for pouncing on an easy target =P

[Danchaofan]

artem didn't call bringing 3 votes at rvs scummy, that was artifex >.<
such confusing names

I think they are all poking "easy targets". I think arti would have significantly higher chance of being scum because xdam is significantly "easier" than arti is, but I think its somewhat mitigated by 27...

[Danchaofan]

I can't have an opinion as to which action a scum is more likely to take?

BTW, the cats are fishy because they like fish... duh

arte, why fos, why not vote?

[Danchaofan]

Maybe I have a slightly more fundamental issue. What's wrong with going after easy targets? i.e. if someone outright states they are mafia, are they an easy target? Should you vote for them? (assuming nothing crazy like suicide roles.)

[Danchaofan]

what are we confirming?

Why does my last post feel ignored? (re-posting for convenience)

Maybe I have a slightly more fundamental issue. What's wrong with going after easy targets? i.e. if someone outright states they are mafia, are they an easy target? Should you vote for them? (assuming nothing crazy like suicide roles.)

I want explanations from lowell

anyone care to explain the wifom of charter?

BSG makes a good point of artem wanting to vote but not because he thinks he would be hypocritical.

[Danchaofan]

oo I have been focused a bit on artem... I have some scum vibes; I'm trying to decipher why. Meanwhile, other people, please respond to questions, comments made toward you:

And no, Charter's vote wasn't WIFOM. You made it WIFOM in your own mind. I can see two reasons why Charter would put me at L-2. And none of those reasons includes WIFOM. I'm waiting for him to tell his reason. From that I'll look if it was scummy or not.

is this wifom:

Isnt the WIFOM in question that Panzer said it was scummy to put someone at L-2, then Charter immediately did it as a response to what Panzer said...no scum would open themselves up to scrutiny like that. Or would they, knowing we'd all think that? Or *switching wine, switching wine*

@Everyone asking Artem why he didn't vote: Thats what an FoS is. A public statement expressing that you feel someone is suspicious but not sure that they are actually scum. After the random voting stage, you should only vote someone you intend to lynch.

I think it's okay to vote the person you are most suspicious of regardless of whether you want to see them lynched (yet).

I await Lowell's memory

Lynx/panzer wasn't there something about the distinction of l-2 being it's claim time?

(posts bigger than avatars give me goose bumps, posts that don't fit on my screen scare me :< )

[Danchaofan]

But as BSG said (and lynx directly before him who may have given him the idea) he has nothing to worry about thus no need to claim as all the votes on him are random or "let's see what happens" votes.

Pz's post was in response to my question about whether l-2 is possibly distinguishable because it was generally claim time, not about whether BSG should be claiming.

Artem, (b) is Wifom?

Lowell, what do you think of artem/BSGs banter? Is it insignificant because there was no distancing associated with it?

[Danchaofan]

ATM, I find artem the most scummy. You never satisfactorily answered what is wrong with pouncing on easy targets. Sure there are opportunistic scum, but there are also people who, for good reasons, seem scum.

I never fully read this post:

What I

do

find interesting is that you're so concerned with whether I voted or FoSed somebody, while completely disregarding my given reasons. You said that you don't see the WIFOM. It was pointed out to you. Yet you seem adamant about your opinion of charter putting you at L-2.

I can FoS charter. I can also vote for him. It doesn't make much difference right now as there is no bandwagon on him. I'm not pouncing on an easy target. I'm giving him a slap on the wrist, because townies (assuming he is one) shouldn't play with WIFOM as it distracts and confuses the town.

The fact that you're pouncing on me, while disregarding my arguments against charter tells me that you're really not so worried about the bandwagon on yourself. Why would that be? (One scenario may be that charter (or somebody else on your wagon for that matter) is/are (one of) your buddy(-ies), so you know that they may unvote you at any point to prevent a lynch of you.)

So 1) you dodge the issue of acknowledging you wanted to vote for charter but didn't because it would come across as scummy 2) You create a scum team of BSG and charter for really bad reasons. 3) BSG, scum? only if you like omgus

You really like to throw around the wifom accusations but

(b) If I voted for my buddy to distance myself from them, why would I unvote them when they were not in any danger, especially since I didn't vote for anybody else?

is wifrom.

[Danchaofan]

oh, wow, I missed charters post... hmm analyzing now...

[Danchaofan]

Charter asking this time but I still think artem gave the best response =/

And I don't see the WIFOM.

Isnt the WIFOM in question that Panzer said it was scummy to put someone at L-2, then Charter immediately did it as a response to what Panzer said...no scum would open themselves up to scrutiny like that. Or would they, knowing we'd all think that? Or *switching wine, switching wine*

[Danchaofan]

Maybe I have a slightly more fundamental issue. What's wrong with going after easy targets? i.e. if someone outright states they are mafia, are they an easy target? Should you vote for them? (assuming nothing crazy like suicide roles.)

Going after easy targets is scum tactics. Town goes after scum, not whoever they can lynch easiest. For me, it depends on how someone claims mafia (though it doesn't occur frequently enough to worry about) before I decide whether to vote them, but many players have policies of voting anyone claiming mafia.

I think I might be getting caught up into a semantics argument. I'm assuming someone is easy if they are doing scummy things. Thus, I equated lynching the easy target to lynching the scummy target. The most blatant example of something scummy one could do was to claim scum so I gave that as an example.

[Danchaofan]

Whats wrong with panzer again? Most of your post seemed to address artem.

(wah... I have 2 tabs open in firefox and this seems to have been left out, sorry for the spam)

[Danchaofan]

night and school = day time of the US = I miss out on a lot of action... sorry

Sure, it's WIFOM if you think that I (as scum) would do something pointless, just for the whole sake of later claiming that it was pointless for scum to do that. I would still like to hear from Lowell why he thinks his reason (b) has good motivation for scum.

It's wifom because it's a distancing maneuver (scummy) yet your argument is it's so pointless that mafia would never do it.

So 1) you dodge the issue of acknowledging you wanted to vote for charter but didn't because it would come across as scummy

Because if I voted, I would be doing exactly what I voted Artifex for, making me a hypocrite.

Am I the only one who doesn't like this? When I read this, it gives me the impression that he wanted to vote Charter, but didn't do so as it would make him a hypocrite. Isn't he admitting here that he finds Charter scummy, while saying that what Charter did isn't scummy just a few posts ago?

So, basically, I'm still a hypocrite?

There's just no pleasing you BSG.

What I

do

find interesting is that you're so concerned with whether I voted or FoSed somebody, while completely disregarding my given reasons. You said that you don't see the WIFOM. It was pointed out to you. Yet you seem adamant about your opinion of charter putting you at L-2.

2) You create a scum team of BSG and charter for really bad reasons.

The fact that you're pouncing on me, while disregarding my arguments against charter tells me that you're really not so worried about the bandwagon on yourself. Why would that be? (One scenario may be that charter (or somebody else on your wagon for that matter) is/are (one of) your buddy(-ies), so you know that they may unvote you at any point to prevent a lynch of you.)

3) BSG, scum? only if you like omgus

same quote as above.

[Danchaofan]

Darrox: Any mention of how the event actions get carried out with your role?

And AFTER that, can anyone who has ever considered using such a role or seen such a role know if the event action would be given in the role pm of a mini-normal, or could give a rough idea of how likely such a role is to appear in a mini-normal.

I think Lynx defended himself well. I don't think he should be a priority today. I do want your opinions on by the end of the day.

Alvinz, I also want your opinions on artem. I think those two (alvinz and Darrox) are the only two to not have posted anything on artem. Correct me if I'm wrong.

[Danchaofan]

I don't like Xdaamno's vote, or his response to being questioned to the reason to his vote. Please pay more attention.

I don't like Master Ruck's vote/unvote- it seems scum hopping on a wagon and then being forced off after conceding his reasons sucked.

I don't these two are necessarily targets for today.

Vanilla townie claims means I have no problem carrying forth with a lynch (after darrox and alvinz post opinions) or unless artem can convince me my reasons to vote are bad.

[Danchaofan]

I'm less suspicious of artem now, he defended himself, against my points at least, rather nicely. I still have a problem with.

Sure, it's WIFOM if you think that I (as scum) would do something pointless, just for the whole sake of later claiming that it was pointless for scum to do that. I would still like to hear from Lowell why he thinks his reason (b) has good motivation for scum.

It's wifom because it's a distancing maneuver (scummy) yet your argument is it's so pointless that mafia would never do it.

Yet, I am asking Lowell to explain why his argument point has good motivation for scum. WIFOM was not his original point of attack. Buddying/distancing was and I'm asking him to explain why it makes sense for scum to play as I did.

His original attack is not wifom, it's your response that is wifom. His point is still valid, your response (because of wifom) is invalid.

So 1) you dodge the issue of acknowledging you wanted to vote for charter but didn't because it would come across as scummy

Because if I voted, I would be doing exactly what I voted Artifex for, making me a hypocrite.

Am I the only one who doesn't like this? When I read this, it gives me the impression that he wanted to vote Charter, but didn't do so as it would make him a hypocrite. Isn't he admitting here that he finds Charter scummy, while saying that what Charter did isn't scummy just a few posts ago?

So, basically, I'm still a hypocrite?

There's just no pleasing you BSG.

While I "dodged" the point here, I've addressed it in my post that followed. (See my post #8)

I'm sure that if I voted charter instead of FoSed him, we would having essentially the same conversation, but with me trying to show that my vote is not hypocritical because it's for different reasons. There's just no pleasing the penguin, so I think I'll stand my ground with the FoS.

(This isn't a retort but I think I should point out) Your reason for voting for artifex was part joking, thus you can see cases where doing what artifex was doing isn't scummy? If thats the case, voting charter would not have made you scummy as it is not hypocritical because you don't actually believe in your first statement?

What I

do

find interesting is that you're so concerned with whether I voted or FoSed somebody, while completely disregarding my given reasons. You said that you don't see the WIFOM. It was pointed out to you. Yet you seem adamant about your opinion of charter putting you at L-2.

2) You create a scum team of BSG and charter for really bad reasons.

The fact that you're pouncing on me, while disregarding my arguments against charter tells me that you're really not so worried about the bandwagon on yourself. Why would that be? (One scenario may be that charter (or somebody else on your wagon for that matter) is/are (one of) your buddy(-ies), so you know that they may unvote you at any point to prevent a lynch of you.)

3) BSG, scum? only if you like omgus

same quote as above.

This I've also addressed in my post #8:

And it's interesting that you name Charter as my buddy, while all the other players are put into the category of buddy. Are you implying something?

My imagination runs wild sometimes.

Notice how I didn't FoS/vote any players that I conjured up a scenario about. It was purely hypothetical situation that I didn't pursue seriously in the slightest.

Ok I read your tones wrong and I read the quote "My imagination runs wild sometimes." to mean something different. I think under current light it isn't scummy at all.

[Danchaofan]

He's not saying he was saved, but that Artem was saved from a lynch by the rule that xda hates, that being the unvote rule.

So it's becoming that xda didn't think artem was a good lynch and he didn't re-read? Why the lies???

[Danchaofan]

This argument against Lynx seems overly convoluted.

Lynx is being accused of making 180s in his opinions. Darrox is accusing of Lynx of saying the charter vote is suspicious to not suspicious to suspicious etc. He's also accusing Lynx of stepping up for BSG then downplaying his stepping up for BSG then going back to saying that stepping up for BSG was a good thing.

I'm of the opinion that the first argument is rather crappy because from my perspective, Lynx has maintained the same position all throughout. A vote is okay L-2 at random for pressure. It's bad because of the wifom induced by the pink kitty. The second argument is a bit more incriminating however, I don't think it's vote worthy. Darrox, do you have any opinions on other players?

[Danchaofan]

EBWOP: checking back I see you've given an opinion on xda. I'm still interested in your opinions on the artem wagon tho.

I think it's time for

unvote, vote xdaamno

[Danchaofan]

@charter: regarding pgos, that can be rather difficult to do.

v/la till sunday night/ monday night- I'll try to get something up before I go to sleep in an hour.

[Danchaofan]

I can imagine myself trying to do some hardcore scumhunting... and failing miserably. lol.

As a newbie, I'm wondering how this situation is resolved: Panzer accuses charter and artem as possible buddies for some reason that I've forgotten. Charter later votes artem. Panzer calls bussing as a possibility. However, if charter hadn't voted panzer might use this as evidence that they are buddies and charter doesn't want to kill his partner. The second situation is purely hypothetical and might not even work as an actual accusation however what I'm really getting at is if a person is stuck between two possibly incriminating choices, a) how would you decide? b) what do you make of someone who pushes the fact that the choice you made is scummy (when the other possibility is equally scummy)?

tubby: hi and pleasant avatar

[Danchaofan]

BTW, Xda, 12 posts in pages 8.5-10.3 and 15 posts from 1-8.5. Care to explain the sudden burst of activity or previous relative lack thereof?

charter what does LOS mean?

[Danchaofan]

got back last night, been reading other games. I'll finish reading and respond to this one later.

[Danchaofan]

sorry got deadlined in another game. I'm reading and posting asap sorry.

[Danchaofan]

We're currently at no-lynch by "05] DEADLINE LYNCH RULES: As the At deadline, a person will be lynched if they have a majority of voters voting for them. That means you can be lynched with just one vote if only one person is voting. If no one has a majority of the votes cast, it is a no-lynch." So within the next 24 hours I'd rather we loose he artem/darox votes and if your suspicious of pz or xd, put a vote on them (although maybe not xd just yet because I'm not inclined to see a premature self-hammer). I will post in more substance a bit later.

[Danchaofan]

Also, from another game, I'm coming to the conclusion that D1 speculation on scum pairs is rather pointless. The possibility of masons, sks, multiple families and varying scum team size due to varying amount of power of town roles throws a wrench into the whole business so I honestly think we should wait a night (or at least until twilight) and not distract ourselves.

[Danchaofan]

Alright, finished a first read and here are some thoughts:

1) Aside from someone seriously dropping some scum tells, because of deadline I think everyone should be go to xda or panz for a D1 wagon (honestly I'm starting to have some doubts in scum-xda but I don't think we have time). i.e. to those who haven't voted or strongly expressed an opinion, stop fence-sitting =)

2) Reading the thread Panz has been posting scum pairs which lately I've been weary of (although I'm getting it more from a game that had a 2-week dl (and 1 week for every following day) so distracting things like scum pairs when one doesn't have a clue as to what the set-up is (i.e. d1) was distracting and probably more anti-town than in our situation). I'm not too sure about some of the other points made about panz i.e. calling l-2 scummy, the role-fishing, I'm still debating which side is stronger regarding the whole "artem has sufficiently defended" (clearly, I admitted that artem came off less scummy, so, I think it is possible for someone else to admit that artem is less scummy given the same posts, however I need to refresh my memory as to whether or not panz's points against artem were similar to mine or not.)

3) Xda is coming of a bit more town-ish... but, xda willing to self-hammer and then switching wagons is way more survivor-esque as opposed to town-esque imo. It seems as tho xda's saying don't vote more I'll self hammer and end the day (and it's working because artifex voiced disinterest but is avoiding voting) and then pushes the wagon (that charter initially thought was a vibe and one of xda's semi-major reasons seems to be to save himself). The lack of pbpa or panz case or general comment before he had to start defending himself means I'd rather not have this townie around close to end game. Or maybe we could [jokingly]beg scum to kill xda if we happen to lynch panz. I mean seriously wouldn't you want to have a whole bunch of active people and people who DON'T just post to defend themselves and who WON'T accidentally hammer people to save yourself from dirtying your hands around in end-game[/jokingly]

[Danchaofan]

I think it's Panzer and dan. I don't think Xdaamo is scum anymore. I got all excited about his mishammer and got carried away.

I add dan to my list because of his earlier ties to Panzer and his most recent post, saying he finds Xdaamo more town and Panzer more scum but doesn't change his vote.

It's like saying ooo the pacific ocean got smaller but this puddle seems to be getting a bit bigger. Now, should I vote for the puddle as the biggest body of of water in the world? (a bit exaggerated but seriously...)

So xda has been pulling 180s on his survivor list and his principles so that he can attack more people? [sarcasm]That's not scummy[/sarcasm]

[Danchaofan]

Lynx points out something, if me renouncing some of my faith in the xda wagon and saying panz might be a bit more scummy is considered distancing, what do we make of charter completely switching wagons?

[Danchaofan]

"I find Panz more suspicious" = I think Panz is more suspicious than I previously thought, but I still think Xda is more likely to flip scum.

[Danchaofan]

wait a minute where is artem-town? And your distancing is far more than anything I've done? Right....

[Danchaofan]

And also, Panzer is scum. After he flips scum, dan is his buddy. If I had to give a third guess it would be Lowell, but that's a really weak guess.

I hate how I'm only pegged as scum because I'm panz's partner but you've yet to show that I'm panz's partner.

What made you so sure about town-artem yesterday?

happy b-day lynx

[Danchaofan]

Artem gave me town vibes after

he

nearly got lynched.

Any particular post?

[Danchaofan]

I can see charter's claim but I'm not 100% yet.

I want to look at lowell and panzers's proposed lynx case.

[Danchaofan]

/prod pick-up
sorry I haven't posted I've been really busy irl...

[Danchaofan]

I've lost sense of the game in the time I was away... re-reading now...

[Danchaofan]

I've re-read to page 20-ish and am preparing to make a post... sorry for the delay =/

[Danchaofan]

sorry, I've only been responding in a newbie I'm in because I'm mostly just defending myself from one guy which takes relatively little time.

I think we have a bit more time until deadline because artifex is being replaced and it's past midnight where I am so I'm going to bed and posting more tomorrow. Sory =/

[Danchaofan]

I was only able to look at Lowell since my last post. Post numbers are of when their posts are viewed in isolation, after re-reading I got a general idea of who I thought was scum and went back to look at them more closely. I'm going to look at others as well later. Sorry, I wasn't able to post earlier today. This was my first chance since day-start to get on the comp. I'll respond to charter later.

lowell
His posts generally lack content and seem to be made up on the go. This indicates he doesn't really care about the lynching so long as lynching occurs. When called upon he does make attempts to justify, though these posts seem to be made as searching for justification after the statements have been made rather than having a justification before the statements are made. It's a backwards form of logic if you will that scum are more inclined to do then town. Scum arbitrarily pick someone to portray as scummy and go back to look for reasons as to why they are scummy. Town, on the other hand, notice something as scummy and conclude that that person is more likely to be scum.

This can be seen early on in lowell's posts

I like artifex or artem more as scum more than BSG right now. Lynx looks town.

Following this he says

@panzer, I dont' really remember why I said that right now. My brain stopped working when the site crashed, TBH.

No doubt there's a great reason, though. I'll figure it out.

and then "remembers"

Okay here's how the first 2 pages look to me.

9-11- the banter between artem and artifex makes me uneasy
30- charter's post is strange, he chides panzer, then votes with him
33- artem gives a speech about "how many votes is scummy" then unvotes artifex [what was the point?], then only FOSs charter [??]
35- BSG hits it RIGHT ON THE NOSE
38-40- more uncomfortable banter from artem and artifex

What I don't like is (a) the banter between

artem

and

artifex

, which seems to keep happening, and (b) the odd vote/unvote by artem on artifex. It's like he voted for artifex to set up a lecture about the nature of votes, then unvoted, only to FOS someone he said he was actually suspicious of. It looks like he was throwing a token "distancing" vote to a scumbuddy early, then just flimsily moving somewhere else. There's so much buddying here that I think at least one of them is scum.

Generally, I just think they're lazy as well. BSG was the random choice for a few votes at the beginning. Then, somehow, it became something one had to

explain

when they weren't voting for BSG. I think they're happy letting the initial pressure dictate what happens, which itself is very scummy.

BSG

has handled the pressure well, I think. Post 35 is exactly on the money and he seems to be payign attention genearlly.

Lynx

I just think is town because he's active and not trying to kiss ass.

One more. Despite

charter

's strange post 30, I think he's town as well. I like the fact that he's willing to take BSG up to L-2 just to see what happens. That strikes me as gutsy, and townish.

It's unlikely you could "forget" this reason. Ergo, Lowell must have come up with this logic following being called out on making the accusations. This indicates the backwards scummy way of reasoning.

Posting justification after being called out is also scummy. As town, when you see something scummy, you should either pressure vote or vote to lynch. If you wish to lynch, others must clearly join your vote. If you don't post a reason then you're are either relying on someone else's arguments (which is just puppy-dogging and scummy) or making a false pretense as to desire a lynch but not actually go after a lynch. This whole pretending to want to lynch but not wanting to lynch is also scummy.

The next lowell "post" is 6 where he seems to add a lot of content and show some insight. Oh wait, he just summarized all of the claims, fos's and requests for claims, and then jumps on the xd wagon and fos's artem. It's also interesting that he calls out artem for "a case made in hindsight." Hipocrasy and needless to say, scummy.

Post 27 is another content-less "content" post. At least you added some annotations in there instead of just summarizing votes for us.

Also interesting to note, aside from voting pz, every other person you attack seems to have attacked you in some way before you attacked them. OMGUS anyone?

vote dan

Anyone want to fess up to that second kill?

Case on dan soon.

vote dan

Shameless bandwaggoning. charter says "jump" I say "how high?"

Also, someone killed lynx? Why?

Role-fish, plus, what makes Charter such the expert? Why puppy dog to him? What case do you have against me?

i only have one shot, i diddn't want to burn it with nothing to go on

This is a strange response. In minis, most one-shot vigs I've seen (myself included) use their kill on N1, since the odds of dying either N1 or D2 are so high.

Whatever. I don't know what to make of it, if anything.

Assuming 3 scum, there is a 1/8 chance of being killed. Is that really high? While saying you "don't really know what to make of it" you seed the idea that tubby isn't playing correctly and allow the possibility that tubby might be some kind of sk or 3rd party to eventually be lynched.

I'm going to look back at pz-lowell interactions to see if there is anything to add.

[Danchaofan]

I prepared that last game day and added something that I saw today before posting it... It'll take me some more time to post a defense to charter. I also think the darox fish is... fishy...

[Danchaofan]

But as BSG said (and lynx directly before him who may have given him the idea) he has nothing to worry about thus no need to claim as all the votes on him are random or "let's see what happens" votes.

Pz's post was in response to my question about whether l-2 is possibly distinguishable because it was generally claim time, not about whether BSG should be claiming.

Buddies with Panzer.

How is that buddying?

Whats wrong with panzer again? Most of your post seemed to address artem.

Just quoting this as a reminder to myself if panzer is revealed scum.

Game. Set. Match.

It seemed illogical (hence scummy) to conclude that pz most warranted a vote based on your post. Ergo, I was suspicious of you.

182- Hopped onto Xdaamo, didn't say anything.

Two posts before that I posted I was suspicious of xd's lies.

398- Says nothing up until this post. Distancing from Panzer and backpedaling on Xdaamo.

You backpedaled Xd more than I did. The argument that you switched your vote and I didn't is fallible because although I my suspicions of pz increased and my suspicions of xd decreased, overall I was still more suspicious of Xd.

Your accusing Dan and I of being scum when we haven't buddyed at all.

I find this a wierd way of defending. Saying they haven't buddied, gives me the impression that they are scum together but Panzer didn't think they had buddied (I don't think they had either, I think they were distancing). I think this is a pretty strong link right here.

Half of your argument so far has been me "buddying" with pz (which we haven't). So, the simplest way to refute your argument is to indicate we haven't been buddying.

[Danchaofan]

771 and 772 have convinced me, if I werent' already voting.

771 is pretty self-explanatory, and 772 is the same stuff I've seen all game. I've explained what I can from that.

Your response in the past has simply been to lurk more and I'm sure that you haven't responded to the stuff you've done today.

Dan, I asked if anyone was responsible for the second kill too. Are you saying that makes me rolefishing scum too? If so, try again.

I would add 774 to reasons to be suspicious of dan. I found neither of these "fishings" as scummy in the least. I was actually suprised I wasn't asked who I hid behind earlier.

I've only looked at lowell's posts in isolation so I missed your fish, but yes I do think it's scummy. It's also awkward how you are defending lowell, what makes you think he is worth defending? what makes you think you're so town that whatever you do is deemed so townie that if anyone else were to do it we would consider it townies as well?

You seem to be a reasonably capable player, so if you are hider, and given you have the benefit of knowing who you hid behind, I think you should be able to decide when to reveal and the decision should not be left in the hands of a relatively uninformed townie/scum looking to plot nks.

[Danchaofan]

How is that buddying?

I'm not saying you're buddying, I'm just saying you're scumbuddies with Panzer.

Because if you say I'm buddies with pz, I'm buddies with pz. QED?

Just saying "why the lies?" counts as saying nothing against Xdaamo.

voting before re-reading, attempted quick hammer are the unmentioned things that I felt were add worthy at the time of vote, other things also convinced me he was scum.

Saying 'charter did something more than me' isn't a defense of your actions.

You're either a hypocrite, ergo scummy or not scummy thus what I did isn't scummy either.

I'm not saying you're suspicious because you didn't change your vote. I said you were backpedaling by saying you were less suspicious of Xdaamo and distancing from Panzer by saying you were more suspicious of him. Your post there was a pretty clear cut case of scumbuddy distancing.

So if someone behaves a bit more town I can't be less suspicious of them? If someone began to act scummy I can't say I'm more suspicious?

I argued Panzer over everyone else for a long time. Panzer flipped scum.

Why defend lowell? Why let him buddy up to you so easily?

Yes, I would act differently. I would...actually, yeah, do just what Lowell did. Ignore it completely and go back to scum hunting. By acting as overly defensive as you are now would only serve to make the claim more true and single me out as scum.

Charter, top 2 suspicions. I'm probably going to agree with you with Freeko and Dan, but I'm also gonna be keeping an eye on Darox as I'm still keeping that PGO claim in mind and the only thing he's said all day is to ask you who you hid behind.

More puppies please

I don't mind a mass claim although roughly half the game has claimed already.

[Danchaofan]

Vote: Danchaofan

I think you slipped up there in your last post.

What is my slip up? What do you think of lowell?

[Danchaofan]

vanilla, lowell?

[Danchaofan]

How is that buddying?

I'm not saying you're buddying, I'm just saying you're scumbuddies with Panzer.

Because if you say I'm buddies with pz, I'm buddies with pz. QED?

This is simple stuff, and I don't think anyone could accidentally misinterpret this. I think he's doing this on purpose to avoid the actual point.

He pulled out a quote of me questioning his logic and says I'm buddies with pz because of it. How is it obvious that I am scum because I question his train of logic?

Just saying "why the lies?" counts as saying nothing against Xdaamo.

voting before re-reading, attempted quick hammer are the unmentioned things that I felt were add worthy at the time of vote, other things also convinced me he was scum.

This is very vague generic stuff that anyone could throw together in two seconds. It hardly looks sturdy to me. What are the 'other things'?

Your post looks generic and thrown together in two seconds so bite me. I also voted him for his lack of content, suspicions were confirmed by his self-preservative attitude, threat of a self-hammer, and some other things that I'm too lazy to re-read now.

Saying 'charter did something more than me' isn't a defense of your actions.

You're either a hypocrite, ergo scummy or not scummy thus what I did isn't scummy either.

The difference between Charters actions and yours (Talking about positions on Xd and Panzer) is Charter did something about it and provided reasons. Trying to shrug off the accusation of back-pedalling by accusing charter of it too is not only again trying to distract from you and the points against you, but also really not applicable because what Charter did and what you did really aren't in the same league.

The degree to which our perceptions changed were different. He moved his vote to who he thought became the most suspicious person, I kept mine on who I felt was still the most suspicious person. Comparing myself to Charter is relevant because he is holding me to a double standard and calling me scummy for doing something very similar to what he did. 398 I point out why I was becoming more suspicious of pz. xd was part vibe part me falling out of the game and not reading deeply into his end of day behavior.

I'm not saying you're suspicious because you didn't change your vote. I said you were backpedaling by saying you were less suspicious of Xdaamo and distancing from Panzer by saying you were more suspicious of him. Your post there was a pretty clear cut case of scumbuddy distancing.

So if someone behaves a bit more town I can't be less suspicious of them? If someone began to act scummy I can't say I'm more suspicious?

Appeal to ridicule, etc.[/quote]It's not appeal to ridicule, what he said was ridiculous.

[Danchaofan]

I say we lynch lowell.

[Danchaofan]

I was only able to look at Lowell since my last post. Post numbers are of when their posts are viewed in isolation, after re-reading I got a general idea of who I thought was scum and went back to look at them more closely. I'm going to look at others as well later. Sorry, I wasn't able to post earlier today. This was my first chance since day-start to get on the comp. I'll respond to charter later.

lowell
His posts generally lack content and seem to be made up on the go. This indicates he doesn't really care about the lynching so long as lynching occurs. When called upon he does make attempts to justify, though these posts seem to be made as searching for justification after the statements have been made rather than having a justification before the statements are made. It's a backwards form of logic if you will that scum are more inclined to do then town. Scum arbitrarily pick someone to portray as scummy and go back to look for reasons as to why they are scummy. Town, on the other hand, notice something as scummy and conclude that that person is more likely to be scum.

This can be seen early on in lowell's posts

I like artifex or artem more as scum more than BSG right now. Lynx looks town.

Following this he says

@panzer, I dont' really remember why I said that right now. My brain stopped working when the site crashed, TBH.

No doubt there's a great reason, though. I'll figure it out.

and then "remembers"

Okay here's how the first 2 pages look to me.

9-11- the banter between artem and artifex makes me uneasy
30- charter's post is strange, he chides panzer, then votes with him
33- artem gives a speech about "how many votes is scummy" then unvotes artifex [what was the point?], then only FOSs charter [??]
35- BSG hits it RIGHT ON THE NOSE
38-40- more uncomfortable banter from artem and artifex

What I don't like is (a) the banter between

artem

and

artifex

, which seems to keep happening, and (b) the odd vote/unvote by artem on artifex. It's like he voted for artifex to set up a lecture about the nature of votes, then unvoted, only to FOS someone he said he was actually suspicious of. It looks like he was throwing a token "distancing" vote to a scumbuddy early, then just flimsily moving somewhere else. There's so much buddying here that I think at least one of them is scum.

Generally, I just think they're lazy as well. BSG was the random choice for a few votes at the beginning. Then, somehow, it became something one had to

explain

when they weren't voting for BSG. I think they're happy letting the initial pressure dictate what happens, which itself is very scummy.

BSG

has handled the pressure well, I think. Post 35 is exactly on the money and he seems to be payign attention genearlly.

Lynx

I just think is town because he's active and not trying to kiss ass.

One more. Despite

charter

's strange post 30, I think he's town as well. I like the fact that he's willing to take BSG up to L-2 just to see what happens. That strikes me as gutsy, and townish.

It's unlikely you could "forget" this reason. Ergo, Lowell must have come up with this logic following being called out on making the accusations. This indicates the backwards scummy way of reasoning.

Posting justification after being called out is also scummy. As town, when you see something scummy, you should either pressure vote or vote to lynch. If you wish to lynch, others must clearly join your vote. If you don't post a reason then you're are either relying on someone else's arguments (which is just puppy-dogging and scummy) or making a false pretense as to desire a lynch but not actually go after a lynch. This whole pretending to want to lynch but not wanting to lynch is also scummy.

The next lowell "post" is 6 where he seems to add a lot of content and show some insight. Oh wait, he just summarized all of the claims, fos's and requests for claims, and then jumps on the xd wagon and fos's artem. It's also interesting that he calls out artem for "a case made in hindsight." Hipocrasy and needless to say, scummy.

Post 27 is another content-less "content" post. At least you added some annotations in there instead of just summarizing votes for us.

Also interesting to note, aside from voting pz, every other person you attack seems to have attacked you in some way before you attacked them. OMGUS anyone?

vote dan

Anyone want to fess up to that second kill?

Case on dan soon.

vote dan

Shameless bandwaggoning. charter says "jump" I say "how high?"

Also, someone killed lynx? Why?

Role-fish, plus, what makes Charter such the expert? Why puppy dog to him? What case do you have against me?

i only have one shot, i diddn't want to burn it with nothing to go on

This is a strange response. In minis, most one-shot vigs I've seen (myself included) use their kill on N1, since the odds of dying either N1 or D2 are so high.

Whatever. I don't know what to make of it, if anything.

Assuming 3 scum, there is a 1/8 chance of being killed. Is that really high? While saying you "don't really know what to make of it" you seed the idea that tubby isn't playing correctly and allow the possibility that tubby might be some kind of sk or 3rd party to eventually be lynched.

I'm going to look back at pz-lowell interactions to see if there is anything to add.

@MR: Why I want to lynch lowell. Lowell has yet to respond and charter has done a good deal of deflection.

[Danchaofan]

^^^ This argument tires me. I have no idea what SPECIFICALLY Dan wants me to address, and feel like we've been down this road before.

So you want me to come up with a defense for you?

[Danchaofan]

Or we could kill lowell. He hasn't tried to defend anything and the things I have pointed out do have scummy implications.

[Danchaofan]

charter (or anyone) has yet to respond to my latest defense and charter has pretty much just accused me of buddying with pz. His logic is crap. What's more worriesome is how lowell is just following along and no one is giving him any fus.

[Danchaofan]

sorry tubby, I did but forgot to post it, pretty much no comments on pz for the game, jumps on the pz wagon at l-2, and 699 looks somewhat like de-railment. Also interesting is his post 6

As well, I'm leaning town for

artifex

and

panzer

, but both of those are more gut feelings than anything else.

Interactions read scum, null-tell at best.

I just finished a game where a joat watcher+vig but claimed joat tracker+vig and turned up town. In a mis-claim like this I would tend null-tell/town-tell.

[Danchaofan]

vote dan

No idea why I was second guessing myself a few days ago, reread and he is strongly linked to panzer and is scummy all on his own.

Why do you say that?
MR why did you never go through and add your vote?

[Danchaofan]

If I'm scum in a 3-man again I'm full out bussing my partner day 1 and have my other partner claim pgo... It might work...

[Danchaofan]

If I'm scum in a 3-man again I'm full out bussing my partner day 1 and have my other partner claim pgo... It might work...

I dunno, I wouldn't recommend this. Bussing day one normally doesn't pay off. If there actually is a PGO in the game, and you're countered, it would be hilarious, but the town will have no problem lynching both them. What if you have one scum claim PGO, then have another counterclaim it day one? One will get lynched, but the other might be very believable then.

SK cross kills could become problematic but it might work.