Mini 727 - Mafia in Standardville - Game Over

[freeko]

The vote I cast was before the whole claim game occured. Where I was significantly more suspicious of the PGO claim. I thought it was initally a ruse to make sure that no one in theri right mind would use an action on him as he would then kill them in turn. Who in their right mind would take the risk of him telling the truth and actually use an action on him at night knowing they would get a bullet in the head for their trouble. At the time it seemed like a clever ruse to make sure people left him alone. I actually did consider tracking him for a while last night before I decided on lowell to see if there was any merit to panzerjager's story of lowell and artifex (now me) being scum with him after he lynched himself.

Now that the claim game is over with there are more people that I am weary of. Mostly its your vanilla claim, as I think you were trying to see if you could counterfeit someone and buy a day, but thats total speculation on my part for now. The problem is that I know someone is lying about their claim, its a matter of who at this point. I really dont know how to go about it.

[LlamaFluff]

Vote Count

Danchaofan (3) - Charter, Lowell, Darox
Darox (1) - Freeko
Freeko (1) - Master Ruck

Not Voting (2) - Danchofan, Tubby216

[Master Ruck]

If you're now saying you voted for him because you were suspicious of darox for the PGO claim, then why did you not mention it here and instead give a completely different reason?

I think you slipped up there in your last post.

Random scumvote to be the 3rd on the wagon so you avoid suspicion? You didnt start it, didnt hammer it, but might as well hop aboard anyway? By not actually pointing out the slip it seems like you are hiding something, at least to me. Especially since it puts him at L-1 now I believe.

vote darox

I think im a bit early with this vote, but I think its placed properly. At least answer for me (and charter as well i suppose) what the slip actually was, and I will at the least remove this vote from you.

[freeko]

Becuase there might be more than one reason for doing something now isnt there?

[Danchaofan]

I was only able to look at Lowell since my last post. Post numbers are of when their posts are viewed in isolation, after re-reading I got a general idea of who I thought was scum and went back to look at them more closely. I'm going to look at others as well later. Sorry, I wasn't able to post earlier today. This was my first chance since day-start to get on the comp. I'll respond to charter later.

lowell
His posts generally lack content and seem to be made up on the go. This indicates he doesn't really care about the lynching so long as lynching occurs. When called upon he does make attempts to justify, though these posts seem to be made as searching for justification after the statements have been made rather than having a justification before the statements are made. It's a backwards form of logic if you will that scum are more inclined to do then town. Scum arbitrarily pick someone to portray as scummy and go back to look for reasons as to why they are scummy. Town, on the other hand, notice something as scummy and conclude that that person is more likely to be scum.

This can be seen early on in lowell's posts

I like artifex or artem more as scum more than BSG right now. Lynx looks town.

Following this he says

@panzer, I dont' really remember why I said that right now. My brain stopped working when the site crashed, TBH.

No doubt there's a great reason, though. I'll figure it out.

and then "remembers"

Okay here's how the first 2 pages look to me.

9-11- the banter between artem and artifex makes me uneasy
30- charter's post is strange, he chides panzer, then votes with him
33- artem gives a speech about "how many votes is scummy" then unvotes artifex [what was the point?], then only FOSs charter [??]
35- BSG hits it RIGHT ON THE NOSE
38-40- more uncomfortable banter from artem and artifex

What I don't like is (a) the banter between

artem

and

artifex

, which seems to keep happening, and (b) the odd vote/unvote by artem on artifex. It's like he voted for artifex to set up a lecture about the nature of votes, then unvoted, only to FOS someone he said he was actually suspicious of. It looks like he was throwing a token "distancing" vote to a scumbuddy early, then just flimsily moving somewhere else. There's so much buddying here that I think at least one of them is scum.

Generally, I just think they're lazy as well. BSG was the random choice for a few votes at the beginning. Then, somehow, it became something one had to

explain

when they weren't voting for BSG. I think they're happy letting the initial pressure dictate what happens, which itself is very scummy.

BSG

has handled the pressure well, I think. Post 35 is exactly on the money and he seems to be payign attention genearlly.

Lynx

I just think is town because he's active and not trying to kiss ass.

One more. Despite

charter

's strange post 30, I think he's town as well. I like the fact that he's willing to take BSG up to L-2 just to see what happens. That strikes me as gutsy, and townish.

It's unlikely you could "forget" this reason. Ergo, Lowell must have come up with this logic following being called out on making the accusations. This indicates the backwards scummy way of reasoning.

Posting justification after being called out is also scummy. As town, when you see something scummy, you should either pressure vote or vote to lynch. If you wish to lynch, others must clearly join your vote. If you don't post a reason then you're are either relying on someone else's arguments (which is just puppy-dogging and scummy) or making a false pretense as to desire a lynch but not actually go after a lynch. This whole pretending to want to lynch but not wanting to lynch is also scummy.

The next lowell "post" is 6 where he seems to add a lot of content and show some insight. Oh wait, he just summarized all of the claims, fos's and requests for claims, and then jumps on the xd wagon and fos's artem. It's also interesting that he calls out artem for "a case made in hindsight." Hipocrasy and needless to say, scummy.

Post 27 is another content-less "content" post. At least you added some annotations in there instead of just summarizing votes for us.

Also interesting to note, aside from voting pz, every other person you attack seems to have attacked you in some way before you attacked them. OMGUS anyone?

vote dan

Anyone want to fess up to that second kill?

Case on dan soon.

vote dan

Shameless bandwaggoning. charter says "jump" I say "how high?"

Also, someone killed lynx? Why?

Role-fish, plus, what makes Charter such the expert? Why puppy dog to him? What case do you have against me?

i only have one shot, i diddn't want to burn it with nothing to go on

This is a strange response. In minis, most one-shot vigs I've seen (myself included) use their kill on N1, since the odds of dying either N1 or D2 are so high.

Whatever. I don't know what to make of it, if anything.

Assuming 3 scum, there is a 1/8 chance of being killed. Is that really high? While saying you "don't really know what to make of it" you seed the idea that tubby isn't playing correctly and allow the possibility that tubby might be some kind of sk or 3rd party to eventually be lynched.

I'm going to look back at pz-lowell interactions to see if there is anything to add.

@MR: Why I want to lynch lowell. Lowell has yet to respond and charter has done a good deal of deflection.

[Master Ruck]

Freeko, answer my question, not another imaginary one. If that was also one of your reasons, then why didn't you say it then? Right now you're just tagging it on to make your case look bigger and not too simple.

Dan, fair enough. Lowell claims to have already answered that which you contest. I'll believe you on that, Dan, unless Lowell can quote posts from the past that show him covering those points already.

[Lowell]

^^^ This argument tires me. I have no idea what SPECIFICALLY Dan wants me to address, and feel like we've been down this road before.

[charter]

freeko's claim is pretty weak. I'm wondering if scum would try claiming the same role over and over.

Anyhow, dan is still scum. Someone needs to hammer him.

[Master Ruck]

Wait, before someone does that, Charter, do you want to reveal who you hid behind last night? Maybe we should set up another pre-declared hide behind if today's lynchee turns up town.

[charter]

Yeah, I hid behind Darox. I believed his claim and after he said he didn't think he would kill me I thought it was worth the risk because last night he was the only one I gave over like a 20% chance of being town. I'm just going to keep hiding behind him, I don't mind admitting this because taking out another scum is well worth it. Plus, if we lynch dan today and he's scum, then I'm pretty sure town can't lose, so yeah... That's what I'm hoping for.

[Danchaofan]

^^^ This argument tires me. I have no idea what SPECIFICALLY Dan wants me to address, and feel like we've been down this road before.

So you want me to come up with a defense for you?

[freeko]

If you targeted him to hide behind, how did he not kill you if his claim is true? This is from the wiki.

The Paranoid Gun Owner, similar to the Army Veteran, involuntarily kills anyone who targets him during the night, regardless of alignment. He can be a liability to the Town for this reason, as he indistinctly kills Cops, Doctors, etc. He can not choose to kill.

Something is out of place here. I guess I just dont understand the interaction and how you can get around this ability. If I were to track him then I would get killed wouldnt I?

[Darox]

If anyone targeted me, they would be targeted for death.

However, Charters ability grants him immunity to night actions directed at him, so he should be safe from my ability.

[charter]

Is there anything left to say today? Can someone finish off dan for us, or is it just the three of us that are suspicious of him? If so let me know and I will try and convince you.

[Danchaofan]

Or we could kill lowell. He hasn't tried to defend anything and the things I have pointed out do have scummy implications.

[Master Ruck]

Thing is, dan, almost everything you've said has given even more scummy implications. I agree that Lowell may not have addressed that big post of yours since you made it, but it doesn't absolve you of all your own actions which you seem to ignore or deflect and then look at someone else to point the finger at.

I'll hammer, but I'll leave it a little bit to let people give a final word or something. Say, about 12 hours after this post.

[Danchaofan]

charter (or anyone) has yet to respond to my latest defense and charter has pretty much just accused me of buddying with pz. His logic is crap. What's more worriesome is how lowell is just following along and no one is giving him any fus.

[charter]

Damnit.

unvote

Damnit. I'm going to reread this before anyone gets lynched. I keep second guessing myself and wondering if dan could be a townie.

[tubby216]

dan in the case you presented yo mentioned looking at lowell and panzer relationships did you find anything?

[freeko]

freeko's claim is pretty weak. I'm wondering if scum would try claiming the same role over and over.

Whats so weak about it? I personally had no control over it for the first day, and wanted to see if there was some truth in panzer claiming who is scumbuddies are when he killed himself. I obviously dont have to track myself so I chose to track lowell. If he went anywhere last night then it would have made the claim game a little more interesting.

I cant figure out master ruck at all on the toher hand. He doesnt make sense to me. Something about him now just doesnt add up. It might be that I think he was looking to make a fake claim, but then again who really knows, maybe I shoud have let him claim after I revealed my targets. Guess thats a wasted opportunity on my part.

[charter]

You said you were a hider when you're a tracker. Accidently claiming the wrong role makes it seem like you didn't look at a PM when you claimed, which makes it seem like you invented it.

[freeko]

You said you were a hider when you're a tracker.

umm care to try again? I will give you the benefit of the doubt and yes, I did confuse watcher with tracker. It says that I watch the targets to see where they go at night. I had assumed that watcher and tracker were 2 words for the same thing. I was wrong.

[charter]

Yeah, I mean you said you were a watcher when you're a tracker.

[Danchaofan]

sorry tubby, I did but forgot to post it, pretty much no comments on pz for the game, jumps on the pz wagon at l-2, and 699 looks somewhat like de-railment. Also interesting is his post 6

As well, I'm leaning town for

artifex

and

panzer

, but both of those are more gut feelings than anything else.

Interactions read scum, null-tell at best.

I just finished a game where a joat watcher+vig but claimed joat tracker+vig and turned up town. In a mis-claim like this I would tend null-tell/town-tell.

[freeko]

Notice: I am officially on V/LA until Friday.