Open Setup Certification Group

[shaft.ed]

So in a "perfect storm" double townie death every night, this would effectively give the town one mislynch as you have a 1 v 4 day in Ether's scenario, but this requires the town to either a) get rid of a scum group or b) have a night where one townie is killed by both scum teams.

It still doesn't solve the opposite conundrum which is what happens when there are too many crosskills and the town walks away with the game.

Really need to calculate the crosskill odds, but I'm busy ATM. Maybe when I need to procrastinate more later.

Meanwhile, I think we should be discussing simpler issues right now. I think the natives are getting restless in the Open Queueueueueu.

[Lord Gurgi]

I don't really see that as a problem. It's swingy, yes, but you have two scumgroups. If the scum are dumb enough to annihilate each other, they deserve to lose.

[Xylthixlm]

Let's deal with the one-scumgroup setups first.

I move that "Trendy and Subversive C9" be taken out back, shot, and buried with all the other setups that contain a nurse and/or backup cop.

[Ether]

I still support giving each scumgroup one-shot nightkill immunity.

Is Trendy and Subversive the one with the {Cop, Nurse}/{Doctor, Deputy} split? I don't see the problem.

[shaft.ed]

Is Trendy and Subversive the one with the {Cop, Nurse}/{Doctor, Deputy} split? I don't see the problem.

This.

I think the set up is quite nice. I don't think it should be blocked just because you don't like back up roles.

One point of confusion I noticed when skimming the games is that the mafia Roleblocker can block and kill on the same night. This needs to be made clear in the role PMs and to the mod running said games.

[Lord Gurgi]

I'm tolerating docs, you can tolerate back up roles.

[Ether]

I didn't even realize TaS had a mafia roleblocker. Dunno if it really needs one; I thought Pie started the trend to prevent a cop from claiming and getting protected. In both C9 and TaS, there's a 50% chance of that not working, which discourages the claim anyway.

The TaS town is definitely stronger than a C9 town in three of the four situations and equal in the fourth, but I'm not so sure that's a problem that needs scum compensation.

(I do like C9 as it is, even if it's scum-sided...it's a losing-builds-character sort of fondness. Back in my day, whippersnappers...)

[Lord Gurgi]

Can we finish up with Monks?

2v2v9 seems good enough to me, can we certify?

[Xylthixlm]

Can we finish up with Monks?

2v2v9 seems good enough to me, can we certify?

Slow down. 2-scumteam setups need deeper analysis.

[shaft.ed]

I didn't even realize TaS had a mafia roleblocker. Dunno if it really needs one; I thought Pie started the trend to prevent a cop from claiming and getting protected. In both C9 and TaS, there's a 50% chance of that not working, which discourages the claim anyway.

The TaS town is definitely stronger than a C9 town in three of the four situations and equal in the fourth, but I'm not so sure that's a problem that needs scum compensation.

(I do like C9 as it is, even if it's scum-sided...it's a losing-builds-character sort of fondness. Back in my day, whippersnappers...)

The RB's nice because the Cop has two definite "outs" having a Doc OR a Deputy definitely in the game. It also discourages powerrole claiming which is nice given the near instaconfirm due to the set up.

Xyl if you have specific reasons why the Nurse slash Deputy are bad for this set up please state them so they can be aired.

@Gurgi, we're not ready for 2 v2 v town yet.

[Lord Gurgi]

Can we finish up with Monks?

2v2v9 seems good enough to me, can we certify?

Slow down. 2-scumteam setups need deeper analysis.

I just don't like all the jumping around. It seemed like we were finally getting somewhere, then tangent.

[shaft.ed]

Can we finish up with Monks?

2v2v9 seems good enough to me, can we certify?

Slow down. 2-scumteam setups need deeper analysis.

I just don't like all the jumping around. It seemed like we were finally getting somewhere, then tangent.

That was the tangent.

[shaft.ed]

OK I think I see what we're missing.

Certify Trendy and Subversive C9

bandwagon to victory.

On a more serious note:
I see no breaking strategies. The only ones I can think of involve town power role claims. So at some point we should run through all of the various four role's viewpoints to see if claiming has any sort of breaking effect on unraveling the set up.

[Lord Gurgi]

I'm with Glork.

[shaft.ed]

Bird C9 (27, 98, 117)

(flagged by Xyl)

Trendy and Subversive C9 (90, 91, 94)

(flagged by Xyl)

Basic Twelve Player (3, 9, 54)

(flagged by Lord Gurgi)

Masons and Monks (12, 23, 56)

(flagged by Adel)

Strawberry (17, 46, 62)

(flagged by Adel)

Polygamist (76, 83, 88)

(flagged by Adel)

The New C9 (50, 60, 81, 104)

(flagged by Adel)

Nightless Vanilla (6, 19, 41, 79)

(flagged by Xyl)

Can the people that flagged these set ups please state their cases against them?

EDIT: Saving Masons and Monks for a later discussion however.

[shaft.ed]

6-8 players: 2 scum (2:4 to 2:6)
9-11 players: 3 scum (3:6 to 3:8)
12 players: 3 or 4 scum (3:9 or 4:8)
13-15 players: 4 scum (4:9 to 4:11)
16 players: 4 or 5 scum (4:12 or 5:11)

Certify the above ratios for vanilla Nightless

[Lord Gurgi]

IMHO, cop and doc versus mafia is broked or sucky.

[shaft.ed]

IMHO, cop and doc versus mafia is broked or sucky.

We aren't worrying about sucky. Why is Cop + Doc + 7 Townies, vs. 3 mafia broken.

[Xylthixlm]

IMHO, cop and doc versus mafia is broked or sucky.

We aren't worrying about sucky. Why is Cop + Doc + 7 Townies, vs. 3 mafia broken.

The cop claims, then the town nolynches repeatedly while the mafia frantically tries to nightkill the doc before the cop can get too many results.

[Ether]

The first game I modded here was a Basic 12-player. No-lynch was banned, so that wouldn't work.

Both the cop and doctor made it to eight-player endgame (heh, I'm used to power roles getting outed early). Mafia just barely slid through that day; one more investigation could probably have turned the game around. I do think it's balanced.

[shaft.ed]

So the standard "fix" is throwing the scum a Roleblocker. Is that worth doing for this set up?

I'm not a fan of forced No Lynchings.

[Xylthixlm]

Adding a mafia roleblocker would go a long way towards fixing the setup. Still not sure on the overall balance level, though.

I don't like prohibiting No Lynch; it feels like a band-aid for the fundamental problem that the town is more powerful at night than the mafia.

[Lord Gurgi]

By "sucky" I meant "has a breaking strategy that is well known and simple".

I'm not sure how adding a roleblocker keeps this setup any different from all the other cop+doc/RB setups.

[shaft.ed]

By "sucky" I meant "has a breaking strategy that is well known and simple".

I'm not sure how adding a roleblocker keeps this setup any different from all the other cop+doc/RB setups.

It has 12 players

OK so I don't mean to distract with a fundamental question, but is our purpose to decide which games WILL be played or which games CAN be played? My understanding was that we were to determine:
1) Is a game broken?
2) Can it be fixed?

If yes then fix it. If no then reject it for all time.

[Xylthixlm]

After some discussion in Site Ideas, I am starting to implement some of the suggested changes in the way we choose Open Setups to be run. The first change is a split in the discussion thread. The (renamed) Open Setup Ideas and Discussion thread remains open for posting new setup ideas. This thread will continue discussion of these setups, with the goal of "certifying" certain setups which meet some number of basic criteria.

Among these criteria are:


The setup must be Open or Semi-Open.

The setup must qualify as "Normal".

For the most part, approved setups should be small (5-12 players).

Setups must retain the basic premise of Mafia; the outcome of the game should depend primarily (though not necessarily entirely) on whether or not the pro-town players can determine the identities of the Mafia through their posting and behaviour. "Broken" setups (setups where the town has a strategy which maximizes their chances of winning through "Following the Cop" or similar methods should not be considered. (Note: This item probably needs clarification.)


This list should not be considered complete or final in any way; rather, it is a starting point for discussion.

Part of our mandate is deciding what criteria we use for approving setups.