Mini 758 - Normalcy (GAME OVER)

[SpyreX]

Ben, assume it to be proportional to a degree. In 12, 3 or 4 (or 1 more or less depending on the amount of power roles, etc) is a safe assumption.

Now, for a little Shakespeare:

"I am the noose, and Plum is the scum! Arise, fair town, and kill thy envious villain!"

Vote: Plum

Now, with this facist modrule set (seriously, who would USE such a thing) I can see the delight in a speed lynch. I mean, hey, who wants day 1 to end faster than I do, right?

However, who would want to lynch me before I even got to play I mean, seriously. I'm just this guy, right. Just boppin along, having a good time, and you meany jerks come in and try to ruin my fun.

THATS NOT VERY TOWN OF YOU TO NOT THINK OF MY FEEEELINGS

If it wasn't for the fact that I am 300% sure that Plum is, in fact, the entire scum team I may be tempted to vote for ALL of you with my extra secret votes. Perhaps a daykill as well. Who knows, the sky is the limit.

My eyes are on you. All 10 of em.

[SpyreX]

It's up to YOU to decide the fate of this town, and, as usual, there are only two solutions; Lynching and Murder.

Welcome to Normalcy.

This, btw, made me laugh. I approve of our flavor.

Also, lets start the train a running:

In this setup, lurkers will be modkilled. Modkilling, regardless of alignment, will reduce your ability to win.

Lurking, therefore, should UNANIMOUSLY be condemned in this setup.

Of course, the mod is nice enough to eliminate the true lurkers - I am more worried about the lurkers that post that once or twice a day to avoid the above.

I am, right now and pre-emptively, calling all of those people scum. Come day 2 sans confirmed scum I want the contentless players eliminated.

Sound good? Good. Its done.

[SpyreX]

OMG THIRD VOTTERRRRRRR

This is pretty sweet though. I've never been lord of the wagon on page 1.

[SpyreX]

I am intrigued by this statement.

[SpyreX]

As much fun as it would be to wagon him this early... I'm actually genuinely interested in the other wagons.

Normally with "random" votes you'd see a spread of votes. We have not. 3 on me and two in quick succession on Atr. Double on Caboose and double on Emp.

Veeeryyy interesting.

So, even from page 1 I'm watching, well, all of you.

[SpyreX]

In general I expect 25% scum - although more in some setups (no vanillas) or less in some (weak town) for my kind of balance (hence the 1 more or less depending).

What can I say, I'm a paranoid folk.

[SpyreX]

Additionally, I'd prefer non-posts to no posts.

But, lets spur something:

FoS: Atronarch. After I mentioned that the wagons forming, by nature, weren't random you took your vote off and placed a different random one. Why is that?

[SpyreX]

Lowell you are a mystery wrapped in an enigma. But you are delicious.

FYI: Randomly declaring random phase is over isn't 'helpful'. Especially when, really, all we have is a very weak suspicion on me.

So, lets talk and the like.

[SpyreX]

Haha.

Weak suspicion FROM me. Not on me.

Wow I'm retarded today.

[SpyreX]

Is there anything specific you can glean yet from the first page of random votes and the fact that they don't spread as per usual? I see that this has at least started an engagement with analysis of Atronach. Still, do you think it points strongly to anything in specific in and of itself?

Right now its simply interesting. I haven't decided what it means one way or the other yet - the one thing, however, is that it DOES mean that the spread truly isn't random and there IS method to the madness. I dont know what can be pulled from it without a flip or two, but.

Coincidental. I had to strike back at Juls, because despite my fooling her, she won in the end *shakes fist*

See, I like this. Answered my fairly simple question without hate or any form of "who the hell are you", etc, etc. Which is in striking contrast from:

Good thing I'm ignoring your useless arbitrary points.

"As soon as KoC does something I can creatively misinterpret as scummy, I'll share and claim I was already suspicious of him on PAGE 2, because Page 2 suspicion is never wrong."

Now, Lowell is being enigmatic, sure. However, this is over the top by all means. I had to look back to see if there was even a VOTE, much less a hate-filled bandwagon.

There is neither. Which makes this all the more odd.

Whats the dealio?

---

The enigmatic votecount

Votecount

Emptyger (3) - dejkha, Kieraen, Plum

Juls (1) - Atronach
SpyreX (1) - Knight of Cydonia
Atronach (1) - Caboose
Caboose (1) - Benmage
Plum (1) - SpyreX
Benmage (1) - Lowell
Knight of Cydonia (1) - Juls

Not voting

: Emptyger, Riceballtail
7 to lynch

[SpyreX]

Spyrex - do you seriously think people put thought into their random votes? I can only speak for myself but I vote some stupid arbitrary reason no matter if I am scum or town. Now if there is something subliminal to it and you have some statistics on it I would be real interested to see if there is anything to be gleamed from it. Although, I will say, I do like your style so keep it up.

Often there is subtle nuances to random voting - ultimately, unless you are using a dice roller, there is SOME reason for the person you've "randomly" voted for. (Like me, for example, I will more often vote players I know randomly and/or players without votes in my random silly votes versus someone I've never seen play).

The kicker is that some of these votes, by all appearances, were "silly" but not random: riceball's fake joining a speedlynch, the quick-votes on Atronarch for his vote (I still have to ASSUME Caboose was joking but that could very easily be interpreted as not).

So, yes, there is -something- there but it's going to take a lot more time to make a pattern out of it. I'm no Porkens to get a scum to implode based on a joke-case on the "random" nature of votes.

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... &&start=36 if you were interested.

I'm not understanding the Lowell-hate, still. I mean if thats how it goes the WHOLE game it might be different but as it is*shrug*.

[SpyreX]

It gets the radar a working when a couple others have mentioned it and KoC has a hate-on for him... when, really, it isn't decidable either way yet.

[SpyreX]

I have to assume Lowells "Preemptive crap attack" was saying KoC doesn't get townpoints?

Also: Was your random vote random or was there something behind it?

[SpyreX]

Now, there's one problem with your analysis (Note: I do not know anything about lowell but that doesn't affect this one bit).

You are making an assumption about Lowells remark that isn't there (or, you are coming out of the gate with some serious cognitive dissonance).

Lets look at the offending remark:

spyrex gets townpoints. KoC does not. Carry on.

There are two explicit statements here.
1.) SpyreX gets townpoints.
2.) KoC does NOT get townpoints.

Now, you and everyone are making the assumption that #2 means KoC is

gaining

scumpoints. Which is... fine I guess. However:

Preemptive crap attacks are scummy.
+scumpoints for Lowell

I don't see what people are liking about Spyre.

But seriously. Is there something you find scummy about his behavior?

No, I just don't see anything particularly pro-town about it.

There doesn't need to be one for it to qualify as a crap attack. All there needs to be is a vague, nebulous statement of "I think X is scum" or "I think X is scum for this reason that's not a scumtell."

So, lets do a little breakdown.

59, in many ways, is a parallel of 36. We have two pieces of explicit information (and a partial explanation of one).

1.) Lowell gets scumpoints (due to preemptively building a crap case).
2.) SpyreX does not get/deserve townpoints.

Now, following the assumptions above that would mean by #2 I would have to get scumpoints... right? However, the first quote I posted in 63 belies that - there is nothing scummy, just neutral.

However, the second quote is directly inferring that #36 is doing something different than #59 - which I do not see from what is there. So we run into the conundrum: we have two similar situations with different outcomes.

Now, thats a lot of words and by now you may ask: Why do I bring this up? Is there something scummy about it?

Good thing I'm ignoring your useless arbitrary points.

I'll second Caboose's question, however - Lowell,, care to explain the reasoning behind your point distribution or whatever it was?

Why isn’t it worth sharing now? What’s this “more complete take on things” you’re waiting for?

Speaking of style. I am not liking your style Lowell. Who cares what I think right? Well, nobody really but I have this open forum so I am going to say it. If you give me no more than a line or two here and there, I am not going to be able to get those yummy town vibes I so like to get off of people but instead you will likely go the other direction on my list.

Not a fan of the Lowell/KoC thing.

Thats 5, right there without Caboose that have expressed in some fashion questioning/negative attributes to Lowells question. Add in Caboose and you're sitting at a potential L-1. (Yes, this is under the assumption that suspicions become votes - EmpTyger's already did).

So, keep in mind that IF Lowell keeps posting one liners and, in essence, simply avoiding the modkill I will gladly hang him - but as it sits I am comfortable with:

Unvote
Vote: Caboose

[SpyreX]

It is a stretch, by nature. I even say it requires some assumptions.

I'm laying it out like that simply to show a "background movement" (negative connotations by a near-majority of the town) that could lead to the disconnect between 36 and 59's view by caboose.

[SpyreX]

No, I’ve asked Lowell to explain himself, and he’s avoiding giving an explanation, first with a non-answer, then by lurking.

But in any case- Lowell’s initial comment certainly made that implication about KoC. Are you saying that Lowell making a vague comment which could mean 2 opposite things- and then not clarifying when asked- is a sign of innocence?

I have no qualms with

your

reason for your vote on Lowell. It was brought up to illustrate the similar setup between the two votes. The implication made in #56 quote fragment 2 is that it IS a pre-emptive attack which would imply a level of scumminess.

Innocence? No, not at all. My issues in this lie with Caboose, not with Lowell. If he keeps playing like he has been I'll gladly lynch him.

What on earth are you implying here? How on earth does that implicate Caboose in any way?

1) Asking a player questions is not the same as considering them suspicious.
2) Pointing out suspicions is not the same as casting a vote.
3) Pointing out genuinely suspicious behavior is not suspicious in itself.
4) We’re 6 days from deadline. Having half the town head towards a consensus- without any immediate danger of a speedlynch or anything negative- is not only not bad, but *necessary*.

The implication of Caboose lies in the dissonance in reaction to 36 and 59. The reason that is scummy is it is the start of a wagon that has inherent backing in the suspicions / comments of other players.

1.) Of course not, but if you're trying to tell me all of the statements above do not show suspicion then we're at an impasse. It is easy to imply negative or positive connotations with a question.
2.) No, but it is

related

to a vote. Normally there is a relation to suspicion and the casting of a vote. Sometimes in the same post, sometime pages away - but, in general, if a "real" vote is placed without grounding in suspicion that vote itself is, by nature, suspicious.
3.) Of course it isn't. Now, the whole argument of "genuinely suspicious" being for the most part subjective aside - my problem isn't with suspicion of Lowell for this: to a degree it is warranted. It is with Caboose, specifically.
4.) Again, of course it is necessary. That doesn't alter the dissonance I see with 36 and 59 and, that in and of itself, raises enough suspicion that I placed a vote.

Clarification: I’m voting Lowell because at this point he’s lurking instead of explaining himself. There may or may not have been an innocent explanation for the comment he initially made. But coupled with his lurking in this situation...

No need for clarification. I simply said that suspicions become votes. I made no reference for the specific reasons (just that all the reasons relate at least partially to that statement). Your suspicions became a vote for the post-statement play. Which is, of course, understandable.

No, it isn't. My statement was in response to RBT and Juls saying that he liked you. Lowell's statement was not prompted.
False analogy, which means +scumpoints for SpyreX
And don't say OMGUS either. My reason is perfectly valid.

Lowell's statement was, contextually, in response to the differences in play between KoC (the WW2 discussion) and myself (game theory, baseline questions). That IS a prompt for a statement of a personal baseline "feel" of the game.

Unless you are making the argument it wasn't prompted for because it wasn't specifically asked for... in which case your statement falls under the same umbrella. Again, either way, this shows more of the dissonance I saw before.

I don't CARE about OMGUS or that business. It rarely happens the way people think it does. However, saying there is no analogous connection between those two scenarios IS something I will argue with you about as per above.

That makes me scum because.....
Despite your postzilla, your reasoning for your vote is pretty incomplete.

That makes you scum because...

When you view another players action as "bad" (36) and there is glaring similarities to your own (59) there HAS to be an underlying reason for such a shift in thought process to occur.

Thus, considering the spoken suspicion (but not votes) AND the nature of this specific game (the fast deadlines) it is a perfect jumping point for starting a wagon. Which, inherently, isn't scummy. However, the method in which you did do it, to me, is.

I should make it clear my post was meant in jest. Although I concur with SpyreX - the sudden wealth of anti-Lowell feeling certainly makes me wonder if this is an attempt to get a quick wagon going, whilst buddying up to me to create tomorrow's scapegoat.

Now I know my sarcasm-meter is often way, way wrong... but really? Even in rereading after this the only way I can see it as a joke is it was so over the top aggressive. That's hard to stomach as being a total joke.

[SpyreX]

(Note: Power Flashes are awesome and in fact don't make me angry that all the words I were typing are now lost in the abyss)

So, here we go again.

Um, most weren’t statements. They were *questions*. Which is why it doesn’t end there. Because then players *response* to those questions (or implicate themselves by deliberately not responding), and the asker reevaluates.
Otherwise you’re saying that players have to immediately decide who is and isn’t suspicious without getting further information, which is ridiculous.

Asking a question about a behavior in this game is, by nature, some suspicion: Behavior that is not suspicious doesn't normally warrant questioning.

So, be they questions or statements, an initial suspicion is there.

Further, suspicion isn't binary. Being suspicious of an action and asking a question is fine and the response by nature will either raise/lower the suspicion. So there is no immediate decision and saying I am painting any scenario where a decision has to be made (which only makes sense in a binary world) is ridiculous.

No, there’s a huge difference between statements of suspicion and votes. You’re implying that it’s bad for Caboose to be the n-1th player to suspect Lowell. There’s certainly a danger of a player being *voted* to lynch-1: they might be speedlynched. But if n-1 players express suspicion- what’s the danger? There’s still opportunity to discuss, players still have to decide whether to vote or not.

And, it’s not even true by your logic. Caboose asked Lowell- which to you is the same as suspecting- in [43], which makes him the *second*, not the sixth to do so. Your logic should have implicated RBT, who was the n-1th, in [58].

So, lets put on our scum-hat for a minute. You have a player who has received an implied level of suspicion from multiple players (including yourself). Does it make sense to attempt a wagon? Of course. Even if it sputters and dies because the player defends themselves well you are just a face in the sea of faces. And, if it takes off, you haven't done anything to actively set yourself out from the mold.

Now, does that, in and of itself, mean I think Caboose is scum? Of course not. The reasons for that I'll get to again at the bottom.

Additionally, my suspicion on Caboose doesn't have anything to do with the N-1. It has to do with the fact that, him included, there are N-1 players that you have an above-null reason to believe would move with a bandwagon. I'm honestly not even sure how/what made you think the logic was "N-1 to vote suspicion is scum." Versus "A scum has motivation to push this wagon considering N-1 players have expressed some modicum of negative issues with the wagoned."

What dissonance?
Caboose’s statement on KoC was directly in response to what Lowell was saying differently.
Lowell’s statement about KoC is still unprompted, unexplained, and without basis, other than some nebulous “I’ll share someday” which raises even more questions.

And, especially in light of Lowell’s failure to clarify, I feel that there are 2 reasonable interpretations of his original [36]: that Lowell is accusing KoC of being guilty, or Lowell is deliberately trying to be ambiguous. Both of which, in context, implicate Lowell. I don’t see how you reach the conclusion from the context of the thread that the best or only interpretation is that Lowell is making a null statement about KoC.

The dissonance I see is thus:

spyrex gets townpoints.

KoC does not

. Carry on.

Preemptive crap attacks are scummy.

+scumpoints for Lowell

I don't see what people are liking about Spyre

.

But seriously. Is there something you find scummy about his behavior?

No, I just don't see anything particularly pro-town about it.

There doesn't need to be one for it to qualify as a crap attack. All there needs to be is a vague, nebulous statement of "I think X is scum" or "I think X is scum for this reason that's not a scumtell."

So, now keep in mind that my issue involves no other players than Caboose. The names and anything else absolutely do not matter.

The issue is this: There is a direct parallel between the blue and green processes.

Blue: Player does not gain town points.
Green: Player does not deserve town points.

So we are starting from the same basic premise, yet:

Blue: Player's statement is a pre-emptive attack. (The implication here or this just flat out doesn't make sense is Blue initially was saying "KoC is scummy")
Green: Player is neutral, not scummy.

So, now we get some dissonance. Same actions, different results. This is further exacerbated by the inclusion of brown.

When you

combine

this dissonance with the level of pre-suspicion yes I see scum motive for a wagon.

Now, assuming I'm right, does this mean Lowell is town? Not in the slightest. Lowell's lack of participation is independently scummy. So, your contextual argument doesn't matter because I am not claiming to know what the hell Lowell means by his statement - but Caboose did and then used the same style of statement for different ends himself.

Thats the dissonance and the reason for my vote.

[SpyreX]

@Dej:

Post 36 and 59 are pretty much the same thing except one mention scumpoints and the other mentioned townpoints. And post 63 doesn't imply otherwise, the way I see it.

Ok, so you are agreeing that 36 and 59 are the pretty much the same. However, you are saying 63 doesn't imply that 36 is "bad" and 59 is "good"?

Great job taking those quotes COMPLETELY out of context.

Again, Lowell's crap attacks were NOT prompted by anyone. Him saying that KoC does not get townpoints implies that KoC did something specifically that made him not deserve townpoints. I said that you do not look particularly townish in response to Jul's and RBT's comments about you looking townish.

If you're going to rant and rave about me taking something out of relevant context - apply the context.

But, if we're going to argue context:

Scenario 1:
Somebody: *random stuff*
Somebody else: *more random stuff*
Lowell: Spyrex gets townpoints, KoC doesn't

Looking back at page 2:

KoC et al: Discussion about the 90's / segue into WW2 talk.
SpyreX: Theory discussion / game-relevant question to Atronarch
Lowell: SpyreX gets townpoints, KoC does not.

So, contextually, part 1 (the explict) STILL makes sense. The other, again, is open (with the most basic grammatical implication being KoC

does not

get townpoints. Not KoC

does

get scumpoints).

Scenario 2:
Juls: Spyrex looks town.
RBT: I like Spyrex.
Me: I don't see what people are liking about Spyrex.

Now this scenario fits better with what happened contextually than #1 did, but it doesn't change my initial concern.

What about you in this statement "I don't see what people are liking about SpyreX" is

inherently

different than "SpyreX gets townpoints. KoC does not."

Both statements are, by nature, nebulous. Without more information neither statement can

definitively

say whether or not the party involved is simply neutral or considered actively scummy.

You have taken 36 to directly be a "crap attack". Yet, 59 by its own nature wasn't.

There ARE differences between the two scenarios. Scenario 1 implies that KoC did something to where it was worth mentioning that he didn't get town points. Scenario 2 implies that SpyreX didn't do anything scummy, but he didn't do anything town either, like other people say he has.

I do not see how the implications with correct context are different. Nothing from what was said in Scenario 2 until clarified would make one believe one way or another whether you disagreed with them "liking" me as in neutral or "liking" me as in scummy.

So, still, it really appears that part of your justification for suspicion on a player that was getting growing background suspicion was...something you yourself did.

[SpyreX]

Now let’s take off our scum-hat and put on our town-hat for another minute. You have a player who has received an implied level of suspicion from multiple players (including yourself) and he’s not responding to players’ questions and there’s a deadline within a week. Does it make sense to attempt a wagon? Of course.

I'm pretty sure I implied just that when I said that the above, in and of itself, isn't why I voted for him.

…but even so, that’s *still* not what Caboose did! Because no matter how many times you say it, he did *not* attempt a wagon. What he did was ask questions (*before* most of the “sea of faces” you claim he was following) and when Lowell ducked answering it, he declared it [correctly] suspicious.

Again, the question being posed wasn't key. It was what he said in 59 that started this chain.

So all you have is this contextless “dissonance”. Which is, in essence, no different from this absurdity:

Player X: <false premise>, therefore Vote: <someone>
Player Y: That makes no sense and your reasoning is faulty, therefore Vote: X
Spyre: Y is voting someone for a reason, yet they’re attacking X because they voted for someone for a reason! Therefore Vote: Y.

This is just insulting. And wrong. My problem isn't some sweeping "ANY REASON" business and this scenario has nothing to do with the above. A more fitting "absurd" scenario would be:

Player X: People who eat apples are terrible people.
Player X: *eats apple*

That is my issue. I'm not sure how your example can relate to what I'm saying: Caboose voted Lowell based on a "pre-emptive crap attack" and in the same post mimic'ed the form in his statement of me.

So even temporarily accepting your interpretation of Lowell’s initial comment- which I don’t- it’s not

MY interpretation of events does not matter. It is only the fact that Caboose chose to interpret that in the most negative connotation and then his own example utilized a neutral one.

I, again, do not know or care what Lowell meant because it is moot for the reason for my vote.

but rather
Blue: Player does not gain town points, for no particular reason at all.
Green: Player does not deserve town points, despite what others are saying.

You really have Lowell to thank for why I’m not voting you.

THANKS LOWELL!

I'm pretty sure on this page without a lot of effort I found the basic context for Blue but even if we're going to reduce it to that it ultimately doesn't change the fact that ultimately:

Green: Player does not deserve town points, despite what others are saying,

for no particular reason at all.

Unless you've got some seecret reason you've pulled out of there because last I checked "despite what others are saying" isn't a reason for anything.

@Everyone else:

Well, with apathy being the way it is and my wagon jumping to the forefront I'd bet money on myself being the lynch for today. I'm not even going to pretend I care all that much.

So, how about these questions:

1.) What have I done that is

scummy

? (Hint: Lots of words isn't scummy.)
2.) What are you going to get from this flip if I flip town?
3.) What are you going to get from this flip if I flip scum? (Hint: A dead scum is p nice, but I'm looking for a bit more than that).

I'm sitting at 4? votes now - a couple more and I'll claim. So, if you're going to lynch me make up your mind sooner versus later so that there's time for discussion if, for whatever reason, my claim changes anything.

[SpyreX]

You're already voting for me. Nice try sneaky boy.

[SpyreX]

[SpyreX]

Do you understand that you start out with 0 townpoints and you have to have a reason to GET townpoints?

NO I DIDNT! YOU HAVE BLOWN MY MIND.

Do you realize that you gave the exact same reason (none) for my not getting said townpoints that you were so quick to leap on Lowell for?

You took what I said out of context and blew it ridiculously out of proportion.

After my flip I bet at least one person goes back and goes "OHH I SEE, Caboose said pre-emptive crap attacks based on nebulous attacks were bad and the had the implication of the same thing!"

You keep saying context and I asked for the relevant context and it has yet to materialize.

Well, we can look at people like Atronach who are just repeating what you say.

So... if I flip town your logical conclusion is that I still am making it up and to go after people who see what I saw? Well done. Bravo in fact.

We can still look at people like Atronach who are just repeating what you say. Plus, we can look at RBT who jumped on my wagon for no apparent reason. Plus, we can look at Lowell who made a nice akward jump onto my wagon.

Now if I flipped scum I could see going after Atro for agreeing with me based on a scum-side argument...however you already blew that out of the water saying you're going after him regardless.

And Lowell for the jump on your wagon? Not for the fact that my bringing this up is easily construed as a defense of Lowell?

Anywho, like I said I would.

Are you ready for this?

ARE YOU READY?

I'm vanilla.

So, yea, I'm going to get hung. Before we do anything awesome like power hammer me give me a bit to give my read on the game as a whole and then you can get to lynching.

P.S. If we have a vig, you know what to do after my flip. Kisses.

[SpyreX]

Lowell implied KoC was scum.
I didn't imply you were scum.

Where? How? Explain how these two scenarios are so different.

RTFT

I'm pretty sure I did RTFT. And I'm pretty sure I showed relevant context. So, if I didn't, show me what context I missed. If I did: why is it still contextless.

That's a very lovely strawman you have there.

Parroting is a pretty reliable scumtell if that's all someone does.

You said if I was town: Well, we can look at people like Atronach who are just repeating what you say.

You said if I was scum: We can still look at people like Atronach who are just repeating what you say.

Not to mention that, get this, atro isn't parroting but you are saying my flip does not influence this at all.

Where is the strawman? I love these words like "contextless" and "strawman" and "implied" without even trying to give the how.

@Juls:

I had a minute of et, tu when you were on this wagon. Good to know you had a plan. However, as it sits I'm probably the lynch. But that gets those naughty, naughty townpoints.

[SpyreX]

Juls and Atronach get townpoints. Dejkha does not. Carry on.

[SpyreX]

Apparently my use of WORDS just isn't doing its job.

I never, ever, ever, ever EVER implied that Caboose was scummy for being S-1 in and of itself.

I am saying: With a wave of obvious suspicion scum would want to move into a position to push that wagon. Cabooses METHOD for joining the suspicions was what caught my eye.

I'll get to the detailed analysis tonight then please, lord, lynch me.

[SpyreX]

I'm 28, so no.

[SpyreX]

Alright, time for the "SpyreX's take on this debacle before he gets hung" synopsis I said I'd do.

Atronach

:

Good: All things considered, fairly active. I really appreciate the simple, direct answer to my question. I, personally, am glad he sees what I'm saying. Consistent with his opinions thus far.

Bad: Still hasn't placed a real vote yet. Says not convinced either major wagon is on scum, but isn't offering a real alternative (although fairly understandable considering the path this game has taken). Absence of a true vote / lack of pro-active scumhunting is a little worrisome.

Verdict: Heavily-leaning town, overall. Consistency, activity and direct responses to questions / suspicion.

Benmage

:

Good: This is real hard to find. The only thing really standing out is the trying to weigh both sides on me and lowell to a degree.

Bad: Ohh nelly. 5 whole posts. Minimal content. Joins the bandwagon with this gem:

Post 64, and also 74...not going to quote...but Spyrex seems to get caught up with semantics and wording wherein I feel he is way over analyzing and complicating things with a plethora of unhelpful nonsensical jargon.

Actively states he has been skimming. Agrees with Atronarch as part of his reason to vote for me. First post does the "How many scum COULD there possibly be" which is a minor scumtell to me. FoS's juls based on an omgus.

Verdict: Leaning scum. Lurking, minimal content, bandwagon voting, absence of any individual thoughts. If he was more experienced I think I would push this towards the heavily scummy category. Lurking looks like its going to be an issue - definite vig candidate.

Caboose

Good: Active - in the quick games especially activity is very important.

Bad: (I'll leave what I've already said out of this). Hyper-aggressive in response to accusations, minimal (sans 59) contributions otherwise. Real, real bad at answering questions: read the thread is not an acceptable answer if it is already clearly there. The use of terms like "contextless" "strawman" "fallacy" et al without proper backing (and he HAS been specifically asked by at least me) is a giant red flag. Saying, regardless of my flip, going after Atronarch is really bothersome.

Verdict: Scum. The only other scenario I can see that makes sense with some of what has happened is masons with EmpTyger - however, if thats the case I am soo glad I'm getting hung right now because thats gonna be a game loser. If I could kill him, I would. I am recommending this posthumously as a serious avenue of pursuit for the town.

dejkha

Good: He is taking the time to clarify some of his reasons for my vote. Consistent (voted for me under the grounds that if Lowell didn't explain he would shift his vote and did so).

Bad: Activity still a little low. I'm still a little confused at how he can agree with my parallel but not the implications. Nothing outside the box (the only players really mentioned are Lowell and myself).

Verdict: Neutral/Leaning town slightly. If activity picks up and becomes more wide in focus I could see pushing town overall. Definitely not a "prime suspect" as it sits.

EmpTyger

Good: Very active in the main discussion of day 1. Paying attention to other players in the game. Is actively asking questions.

Bad: I can not detach Emp from Caboose in my mind - his attacks on me (and questions of other players) feel like a textbook chainsaw defense (especially considering not once has there been any suspicion of Caboose). The 'example' counter-example given is, at best, far enough off the mark that it affirms my main issue - and at worst it is an active mispainting of my stance. Most of his callouts (Lowell, dej, Kieraen) are simple lurker callouts - even his vote as it sits.

Verdict: If Caboose and Emp do not know each others alignments (masons / scum) I am flabbergasted at the way this has went down. If, as I am leaning, they are scum together then I would call Caboose being a power role and Emp being just a goon based on the way this has went down.

Juls

Good: Active. Actively questioning lurkers (RBT specifically). I, personally, love the "gambit" she pulled with her vote - that is one of the kind of risk/reward moves I really like. Didn't try to justify mis-understanding of statements with benmage showing a solid level of openness and flexibility.

Bad: Playing both sides to a small degree in regards to me (likes my style / doesn't say I am town). Her Gambit did help push my claim which does always benefit the scum.

Verdict: Town. Juls is my anti-Caboose. If she's scum she's got the wool over my eyes so hard its better you kill me now because seriously. (Note: Sorry when this gets you killed )

Kieraen

Good: He hasn't got modkilled?

Bad: Everything else. I honestly forgot he was in the game - that is how much content he has provided.

Verdict: #1 target for a vig-kill. I wouldn't even bother with an investigation because there is no reason to let him live much longer with this level of activity. If it werent for Caboose-gate I'd be very tempted to place my vote here.

Knight of Cydonia

Good: Active. Unfortunately, not much more to say than that.

Bad: For the posts, KoC hasn't "said" much thus far. I cant shake the feeling of a Lowell/KoC scum pair staging a slapfight early on. Voted for me, as far as I can tell, solely for the claim (see above with the role information being very, very useful for the scum)

Verdict: Definite target for investigation - however because I just cant get over the Emp/Caboose deal I am going to simply say Neutral/Slightly Scummy.

Lowell

Good: Definitely was key to generating a lot of discussion . I see the method behind the madness of his posts (hence why they haven't bothered me as much as some). Moreso than the other lurkers, he IS making his opinions known (even if you dont know why).

Bad: Inactive. Seriously. Last comment considering everything going on is a throwaway that I don't like. Absence of increase in activity considering he is a wagon choice is also worrisome.

Verdict: Much like KoC, Neutral/Slightly Scummy. The lurking really drives me nuts but on that front there are still MUCH WORSE lurkers (and this is really sad when you consider he has 5 whole posts)

Plum

Good: Active. Definitely not lacking on the words. Makes her opinions known and questions without a huge issue of hyper-aggressiveness. Has a definitive stance on the main issue of the day.

Bad: With the definite opinion in, still places the (for all intents and purposes) throw-away vote on RBT. FoS pretty much "the game" sans... Emp and Caboose. Unnecessary (and, IMO, wrong) "emotional" words in her last major post (RBT and Juls "gushing" about me being town, my suspicions are "crap"). Again, does the "regardless of my flip I'm looking and A and B tomorrow" business with the added side of C just to cover the bases.

Verdict: Again, the Emp/Caboose handholding bothers me. The only "wtf" moment I have is that I really doubt the whole scumgroup would be this connected this early. However, the emotional language choices and the throw-away vote with the power FoS definitely leave me at scummy.

Riceballtail

Good: Opinions (as it were) are known. The reply to Plum is fairly even-keel considering.

Bad: Not active enough. One liners aren't going to cut it. Saying "I'm ignoring the wall-of-texts" isn't really helpful. The fact that my little analysis of RBT is probably near as many words as she's posted all game is... sad and wrong.

Verdict: Neutral. If participation was higher I'd lean town. If it continues I'd start leaning scum. Investigation worthy.

So, based on little connections, etc and because well, I'm going to be dead soon and I like making words

(NOTE: THIS IS SEMI JOKING FOR THE LOVE OF)

:

Potential Scum Groupings! (3-man teams)

The "I seriously hope this is the scum because otherwise I hate you guys" Scumgroup:

Caboose, EmpTyger, Plum

I think this one speaks for itself. Caboose and Emp are entwined in my brain for the rest of this game in the kind of tryst even lovers would blush at. Plum must just be a voyeur.

The "If I was a vig, you jerks would never, ever win" Scumgroup:

Kierean, Lowell, Riceball

Seriously. I'm pushing almost DOUBLE your combined posts. I... I've got nothing.

The "Lets watch SpyreX crash and burn" Scumgroup:

Juls, Riceball, Atronarch

Mostly here because you're the ones that seem to at least give what I'm saying more than a glance..to see what I'm actually saying. Must be scum.

The "Lets just play like scum because its supersweet: Scumgroup

:

benmage, Caboose, Kieraen

Individually you are the three most scummy players at the mo'. Good work.
and, finally:

The "Porkens hates me soo much so this is probably the case" Scumgroup:

Every damn one of you sans Juls.

Seriously, maybe its 3 scum groups of 3 and an SK and then Juls and I as the only town. Wouldn't surprise me ALL THAT MUCH PORKENS

(Note: JOKE TIME IS OVER READ FROM HERE SERIOUSLY)

Final Thoughts:

Lets get this out of the way:

I, at this point, want to be hung.

It'll get the most out of any lynch sans Cabooses which I don't think is going to happen. I would rather post this and have it as at least a read tomorrow versus somehow NOT getting lynched and having this debacle again tomorrow because, get this, I want to win dead or alive.

With that said. I swear, if for some reason you don't lynch me you better just consider me confirmed. Do NOT go through this business again. I will not be a patsy for an easy lylo lynch and this day 1 + me being vanilla = I will never, ever be NK'd. WIFOM out of that all you want - kill me or confirm me, I don't care.

In general, if posting doesn't pick up (especially content) the town has a snowball's chance in hell of winning this. It'll turn into some Lord of the Flies business if the lurkers aren't dealt with. Thats NOT going to cut it.

Also: the chances of my wagon being totally town driven are minimal. There IS going to be scum on this wagon (you know who I think this is). Keep that in the front of the brainstems tomorrow.

Finally: I can not explain how irritating / sad it is that some of these votes on me aren't because you see a scum motivation for what I've said, but because you simply don't agree with it. Or as some have insinuated "too many words." Combined with the fact that the answers to the questions I asked mean my flip isn't changing anything tomorrow just makes the face behind the face die a little..and the buzzwords, my lord. Seriously.

So, hells bells - lynch me, post more, look for scum motivations versus "different" behavior and WIN.

(and kill Caboose, fyi(as it is part of the above statement of "and WIN"))

...I've just posted too many words

[SpyreX]

Just read that Spyrex post and feel bad. Ive just kind of let this game glide by. I'm gonna post my feelings page by page. Full feelings and thoughts. Nothing barred. I've got some catching up to do.

Okay.
Apologies town. Ive been a bugger.

Less apologizing, more actually doing it.

Laid it on a little thick didn't you Spyrex? Yeah, I don't have warm and fuzzies about Spyrex now.

Unvote. Vote Spyrex L-2 I believe.

@Plum: I voted Spyrex because I did think he was doing a lot of hand-waving and trying too hard. But I also wanted a reaction out of him because the possibility that he is just town trying to find scum. I was satisfied with his answer to this. However, afterwards you can see what he has done for yourself and I hope understand why I am putting my vote back on him.

@Spyrex: If I am wrong I apologize but what I am feeling from this is you knowing how I played in the game that you modded and taking advantage of that. But my God it is so obvious...Ugh! I hope I am not reading it wrong.

Not thick. I'm actually more irritated than not that, overall, I'm not getting solid town vibes from many players: its nice to come out of day 1 with at least "good" feelings about more than one player without the majority lying in neutral / scummy status. I think your play has been the most town thus far by a mile.

Don't apologize. I fully expect to be lynched. I am not going to lynch myself (unless its to stop a no lynch) so more people on the wagon the better - every vote placed is more information tomorrow.

It really needs to be caboose instead of spyrex. spy's shameless buddying in his last post notwithstanding, I can't get over caboose's repeated, and inane, defense of why though it looks like a one-liner and smells like a one-liner, it's somehow not a one-liner when caboose does it.

More posts is better. This is a start and, duh, I agree with it - although I'm not buddying. Unless Juls is a necrophiliac since you all better hang me.

[SpyreX]

In light of the fact that the deadline is looming tomorrow, it looks like it will be a Caboose or Spyrex lynch.

In all honesty, Spyrex, your last post looks bad in some ways. The "I want to be hung" thing is a poor move. It always looks like an attempt to prompt a "he must be town" response. If town, as I still suspect you are, sacrificing yourself is never a good idea.

It -can- be a poor move, but short of hitting scum today I'd prefer to at least hit a townie that gives the maximum information for tomorrow: I've put myself in that position. I've given views on most everything I can, I AM a VT so I am not the loss of a PR (nor the chance for another to claim).

Not to mention, of course, I -could- be scum. Regardless of how you slice it I am the second-best choice for a Day 1 lynch (sans scum). You can go "he must be town" all you want as long as the issue is rectified for tomorrow one way or another.

I'm glad to see Kier picking up the posting up. Even though it'd already been mentioned its good to see someone pick up the one

actual

potential scum-motive for my post (a defense of Lowell which parallels Emp's of Caboose) even if its wrong versus the shouting of fallacy. Lets see if the ball keeps rolling.

[SpyreX]

Ugh another spryex essay… First off Spryex just dominates the board with mass posting I can’t even digest other people’s positions because every other post is his, and a large one at that.

There is a one post a day minimum... not everyone has to spam the boards like you. Some of us have other things in our lives and would like to play this leisurely.

My bad for playing the game I guess? More posts is more information is, hopefully, more chance of winning.

I dont expect everyone to "spam the boards" but I, like everyone playing, should expect posts with content each game day. There's a 1-post minimum to not be modkilled - but unless you think 12 post days are super sweet I'm not sure what you're aiming for with that.

Bandwagon… you really weren’t in a threat of a hammer…7 to lynch…seriously…Dej and Juls were the only serious votes against you as KoC’s was during the random phase…than Juls quickly switches(for wrong reasons)

Not being in immediate threat of a hammer doesn't alter the fact that was a shameless bandwagon vote.

Lurking…an issue, so far off...rofl I stated I had midterms…also had work and other real life things. You claim to be a vet, so certainly you must understand about the real world?

Nope, as a vet any real world understanding is immediately stripped from my system, making me a cold, callous machine that is dedicated to this game in all its facets. I AM A ROBOT.

Rationale (the same rationale everyone can apply, fyi) for it doesn't change the fact you have been lurking.

Skimming..geeze you just like to nitpick and highlight what is attractive for you. I said I read most (was I believe the first 3 pages...and skimmed the 4th so I could shed some light and everyone could see where my stance was since I hadn’t posted yet due to RL)

Saying you're skimming when page 4 is a large continuation of what is going on on the wagon you just voted for is going to throw a red flag.

Leaning scum candidates…me and Caboose, tho I think Caboose may in actuality be scum... seems rather convenient AGAIN to place 2 of the three voting for you as scum.

Considering my stance on Caboose started this whole mess and if you think you two are the only people I found scummy well.

Conclusion: you want to be hung… wow scumtell much? And if sympathy goes in your favor you demand to be confirmed, because you don’t want the same monotony tomorrow. Worse Vet statement ever? How many successful first day scum kills are there? Not many that’s right. So instead of a higher probability of killing an innocent today, and the scum killing one at night losing two innocents we could have one die each night. This way we stretch the days out and allow for possible cop investigations to be more effective… but actually your way sounds right lets kill kill kill and point out more people for the vig to kill…huzzah(sarcasm on that last part if you couldn’t tell…sometimes online sarcasm interpretation is difficult)

In what world does getting hung help the scum win condition?
In what world does having this whole issue act as a cloud to let scum hide under tomorrow help the town win condition?

The rest of this I honestly don't understand what you're getting at. Yes, often (but definitely not "not many") the first lynch is not scum. Then you are saying in contrast we...no lynch? Or what? Really you've trailed off here and I'm not sure of anything except you're saying the vig shouldn't kill?

SpyreX, you may be right that I used somewhat over-strong words to make my point (especially 'gushing'). Nevertheless, I maintain that aside from moderate exaggeration, which everyone may feel free to edit out, the point I was trying to make stands (that there was context for Caboose's statements not present by Lowell's statements).

And we'll disagree about this for all eternity on multiple levels - as I see "context" for both but that doesn't alter one bit the parallel I see between them (and that is bad because Caboose said it was bad and then did the action he said was bad).

Not necessarily. In this case unless we're all comfortable letting SpyreX live until Lylo despite his claim, we'll need to lynch him. Despite some twitches from my gut on the choice, I do disagree with him on multiple points and feel that some things he argues are false. I must go to class now, but I will say that SpyreX's call to be lynched is plausibly pro-town.

I just want this block quoted by itself because this is one of those statements that oozes "creating wiggle room" after my lynch. I could spell out all the little ticks, but nah.

Spyrex has been an absolute hyprocrit. He states early on that he dislikes lurkers and will push for modkills and lynches against such players. When two players make the same mistake (Caboose and Lowell) he then attacks the one who qualifies and answers more. This is strange is it not? He then reiterates his attack on Lurkers (including myself) but forgets his earlier promise. This for me is the biggest problem I have with Spyrex.

... what?

In this setup, lurkers will be modkilled. Modkilling, regardless of alignment, will reduce your ability to win.

Lurking, therefore, should UNANIMOUSLY be condemned in this setup.

Of course, the mod is nice enough to eliminate the true lurkers - I am more worried about the lurkers that post that once or twice a day to avoid the above.

I am, right now and pre-emptively, calling all of those people scum.

Come day 2

sans confirmed scum I want the contentless players eliminated.

No where would I push for a modkill. In fact, I say modkills are bad for everyone playing - but its the people posting the one or two posts of nothing that need to be dealt with.

Further, I explicitly say that hunting lurkers day 1 isn't an option - hence Day 2. There has to be a pattern of lurking and day 1 can't just be a storm of nonsense to not appear to be lurking.

And if you think I'm going after Caboose because Caboose and Lowell made the same "mistake" I dont know what to tell you. If what I wrote boils down to that I apologize because that means I really, REALLY screwed up my explanation.

And there still hasn't been a hammer yet. KoC hasn't unvoted. I'm not sure what you're going on about there.

I've seen a lot of pro-town players ask to be lynched, but more often than not they come over as rushed, angry, and they don't give a wall of text to explain why they should be lynched. That's why I'm not going to unvote SpyreX. I would have found it more believable if he had just gone "OMG WTF U All Suck I'mma self vote so you lose fuckers".

I get my angry out for the most part BEFORE I post. Believe me there's been some swearing at this game.

However, I don't think that helps me win. So, I try to keep it down a notch. Expect after I die and caboose flips scum a beautiful picture of millions of middle fingers though with robot techno-metal saying "I told you so." over and over until the end of time.

[SpyreX]

If I go down in a blaze of glory day 1, maybe at least some of what I say has some merit.

I am really surprised no one else mentioned the caboose / emp love affair.

Watching KoC wiggle out of actively nohammering too.

Fun game to read though.