Adel wrote:a breaking strategy for a given setup should be realized before it acts as a disqualifier. Texas Justice has been broken, for example, but Carbon 14 and Assassins in the Palace only have theoretical breaking tactics that have not been proved or used in a game.
~~~
@Ether: Tar's role PM framework is a great starting point for us to use in generating the standardized portions of the role PMs.
~~~
@Xyl: there are a couple setups on that list I'm not familiar with. After incorrectly stating that Assassins in the Palace had been broken, I' a little more cautious. For now I'll just flag Polygamist.
I'll stand by my statement that armlx's strategy is optimal for AITP, and furthermore that AITP isn't really Mafia. But I'm not in the certification group, so that's all I want to say here.
* 1 Mafia Goon
* 1 Mafia Roleblocker (for balance reasons, the Roleblocker should also be able to nightkill even if the Goon is dead)
* 1 Sane Cop
* 1 Doctor
* 3 Townies
Adel wrote:Assassins in the Palace have been broken,
Really? How? Where?
I seem to recall something along the lines of post no relevant comments, wagon randomly, and the first person to get two or three votes is lynched because they more or less can't be king. This prevents the assassin from getting any clues regarding the king's identity while the town still can find the assassin.
That's the correct stratagy, more or less, sure; that was the stratagy me and Jdodge came up with in the AITP game we played (which may have been the first AITP game, but I'm not sure). Although "random wagoning" is not actually corrrect; you still have to lynch scum; if you lynch too many guards, the scum autowin anyway without even needing any information. The wagoning often LOOKS random to an outside observer, but it is not, at all; it's pro-town people trying to lynch scum without sharing all of their thoughts, which is a very different thing.
Plus, half of the reason we won that game was because I broke my own "once someone gets to thee votes we have to lynch them" rule on Jdodge, because I was so sure he was town, which made the scum think he was king.
I want us to win just for Yos' inevitable rant alone. -CrashTextDummie
Mr. Flay wrote:I'll stand by my statement that armlx's strategy is optimal for AITP, and furthermore that AITP isn't really Mafia. But I'm not in the certification group, so that's all I want to say here.
I happen to agree that it isn't normal, but that is a conversation that we will get to later. Each these setups has the potential to bog us down, and I think that "how normal is normal enough" in particular will take a while to hash out.
both have been run, but I haven't checked how many times, or compared the results. I believe that 5p is the tried and true version, but I'm erring on the side of caution.
anyhow, I took the 7p off of the list of unflagged setups.
Korts wrote:I don't really have any problems or questions with any of the unflagged setups.
you sound like you may have some reservations though... do you have any?
like, are we skipping a step that you think is important?
do you want more time to think about it?
I agree with the three times running without an obvious breaking strategy being used rule of thumb.
I also think while AITP has a different style in order to win the game and is different from more standard set ups, the breaking strategy itself still involves reading other people's actions and thus it should be maintained as an available game for the Open Queue.
Xylthixlm wrote:
shaft.ed wrote:
Xylthixlm wrote:If there are no further flags, I think we can approve that list for a first batch. shaft.ed? Korts?
I'm just a guy
You're on the list in the first post
huh, I guess that shows if you just pretend to be something for long enough, eventually you'll get your way.
One other metric I think would be worth considering is a "balanced" worst case scenario. This would make swinginess tolerable just as long as the swinging goes in both directions. Basically just calculate what's the fastest possible win for either faction and compare.
There are at least a couple of setups that have been "tested" through multiple runs, outside of the Open Game list (Vanilla of various sizes, but most commonly 2:10; and California). I don't think Vanilla needs to be certified at all (it *is* Mafia, IMO, everything else is just a variant...), just don't want it forgotten in the mix. (I know this is just a first run, and these and other setups can always be brought in later.)
4:8 Nightless is not biased toward the Town; Mafia are favored in that setup. I'm reasonably sure it hasn't been run enough to determine with any degree of certainty how much better real players do than the numbers; I'd be quite surprised if they do *that* much better, though. 3:9 is 50-50 with random play.
I wouldn't consider AitP broken (just subtle); I also wouldn't consider it "normal". It should probably be run in Theme Park in the future (I do have some thoughts on encouragement for mods to run Themed Open, or otherwise simplistic, games, but that's for another thread). And I agree that the rules about not claiming are silly; any rule like that will inevitably lead to mod interpretation of posts, and isn't necessary in that game.
E7 should not be attached to anything but Pie (it's a very specific reference poking fun at Pie's lack of binary skills).
Regarding standardized role PMs/rules, I know it seems like something everyone should be able to do, but we've had several games ruined or affected by misunderstandings in this area - there's just no reason for that when we can do something to prevent it. Fine with leaving room for the mods to add their own flavor touch (keeping in mind that these are normal games), but we do need to make sure the important stuff is clear and immutable.
The town in 4:8 Nightless has four chances to lynch the first out of a larger pool of four mafia; each time that they score a hit, they get the extra lynch that a mafia nightkill would normally cancel out. A player who's obvtown can never be eliminated--and as few as two can storm through the rest of the game. I'm not arguing to ditch it--though Kelly Chen probably had the right idea with 4:7 or some other ratio adjustment--but it seems like overkill to further nerf the scum. (I say this, but a glance at the front page of Open 120 has the game at LyLo. Heh.)
The standardized PMs thing still bugs me; if you agree to set them, can you at least give new mods a back door to get alternative PMs approved after reading the standards? I'd be willing to go over them.
I think ruleset control is even worse. The same ruleset doesn't work for every mod; one tends to evolve as the mod sees what works and what's superfluous/grates on the mod personally/doesn't get enough attention in standard rulesets. It's a more valuable learning experience than the PMs are. (Exceptions apply--like, 72-hour deadlines are an entirely different genre. I'd kinda like to see mafia daytalking become a regular variant in rulesets, but can understand the view that it's a role-based function and should be banned from opens unless otherwise specified.)
As I move my vote
Towards your wagon, town is taking note
It fills my head up and gets louder and
I'm not sure where we are going to go from here, but posting the role PM's and rules used in previous runs of Lovers can't hurt:
Lovers Mafia (no wiki page yet)
* 2 Mafia Lovers
* 4 Townies
Nightless
open 97:
open 102:
open 113:
open 97 did not explicitly allow daytalking in the mafia role pm
open 97 rules:
andersonw wrote:Rules:(borrowed off some various people)
1. Have fun, this is a game, don't be a jerk.
2. I may mess up (like on votecounts). If I do, please say so in thread or PM me.
Voting:
3. Please vote in the form Vote: banana (I will still count it if the colon isn't there, but it has to be bold).
4. I will not require unvotes, but please try to remember to make it easier on me. Unvote in the form Unvote: banana
5. You may vote for a no lynch, but that would be pointless, considering that this game has no nights.
Lynching, Deadlines, etc.:
6. If any player gains the majority of votes, that person will be lynched, and the game will go into twilight until I post the lynch scene (you may still post during this time).
7. When you die, you may make a "bah!" post, but nothing game-related.
8. Each day will have a deadline of 3 weeks. I may extend it if there is much discussion/people get replaced.
9. At deadline, the person with the most votes is lynched, regardless of how many votes that person has.
10. If it looks like there's going to be a tie, I will say what happens when the time comes.
Activity:
11. Please post at least once every 72 hours.
12. If you're going to be away for more than that amount, please PM me or post a V/LA notice in the thread, so I don't prod/replace you when you are gone.
13. I will prod you if you have gone at least 72 hours without posting. Once you receive 4 prods, you will be replaced.
Other:
14. Don't edit/delete your posts. Don't use encrypted text. Don't use white or small text (but big text is okay). My color will be red.
15. If you are not one of the two mafia, do not discuss this game with anyone outside the thread.
16. Have fun, this is a game, don't be a jerk.
open 102 rules:
neko2086 wrote:RULES: Humbly stolen from Mr. Flay, and shamelessly modified
1.Remember, it's a game. It's supposed to be fun. It's supposed to be interactive. There will be disagreements, but keep it civil. Jackassery is OK to a certain extent until it prevents others from having fun.
2.Votes must be in bold (Vote: Joe the Mafia) to be counted. Unvotes should also be bolded (Unvote: Joe the Townie), though I do not strictly require them.
3.Lynches will require a majority of living players, and will be final once that majority is reached. No unvoting will save the person at that time, however a majority may also Vote: No Lynch if they so choose. If a deadline is imposed, the required number of votes will be lowered, so be careful.
4.Under a deadline, the player with the most votes will be lynched. In the case of a tie, the player that reached the highest number of votes before the tie will be lynched.
5.Do not discuss the game outside of this thread unless your role PM explicitly says that you may. Violations of this result in a modkill.
6.Don't quote any PMs from me directly in thread. Violations of this result in a modkill. Likewise, once you are dead, stop talking; you can say your piece once the game is over. A single 'Bah!' post with no game-related information is acceptable.
7.Don't edit/delete your posts, even if you have the privileges to do so. It violates the integrity of the game and can screw up the game thread. I will take care of duplicate posts accidentally made by the forum or by double-clicking. Making text smaller or invisible is, as always, not allowed either.
8.Any questions about vote counts, your role mechanics, etc - PM me. Any questions about replacements or prods for players, mention it in thread. Please preface them with Mod: to catch my eye.
9.Treat this game as a commitment to me and your fellow players. If you're going to be gone more than 72 hours on a non-weekend, let us know. I reserve the right to replace you, but the players reserve the right to lynch you first.
10. I may tweak the rules as we go along, generally just to make sure I'm covering my bases. You will be notified if the change is a substantial one.
11.Remember, it's a game. It's supposed to be fun. It's supposed to be interactive. Do your part.
open 113 rules:
ShadowGirl wrote:Rules: (stolen from Mr. Flay)
Votes must be in bold for them to count, like this: Vote: ChannelDelibird. Unvotes should also be bolded (Unvote: ShadowGirl) so that I can spot them easier, but it's not required.
A simple majority of votes (1/2 the number of living players plus one, rounded down) will achieve a lynch and end the Day. Unvoting after that point will not save someone's life. If a deadline is imposed, the required number of votes may be lowered, so be careful.
Unrevealing 'bah' posts are fine, after, no more talking 'til the game is over.
Do not discuss this game with other players outside of this thread, unless your role PM specifically stated you could do so.
Do not directly quote any PMs you receive; I have already posted the roles above, but this holds true for any future messages you receive from me as well.
Treat this game as a commitment; if you're going to be gone for longer than 48 hours (not counting weekends), let us know. I will replace severely inactive players, but your fellow players may choose to lynch you themselves first.
Any action which would be illegal to actually do is also illegal to fake (for example, posting a made-up PM that shows a Cop result of guilty/innocent).
I wil be posting in dark red, so do not use that colour.
If you do not post for 72 hours I will prod you (weekends count as only 24 hours), and three prods will get you replaced.
Participate, but make sure to have fun!
~~~
just as a point of comparison, here is the rule set that mith used for mini 655:
"The town in 4:8 Nightless has four chances to lynch the first out of a larger pool of four mafia; each time that they score a hit, they get the extra lynch that a mafia nightkill would normally cancel out." - Ok... but the EV takes this into account. Sometimes it's counterintuitive, I guess. But the numbers don't lie; the Mafia is expected to win 2/3 of 4:8 games.
"A player who's obvtown can never be eliminated" - The existence of a player who is "obvtown" is the result of subpar scum play and/or exceptional town play.
Again, I don't know how much better real players will do than the EV, but there simply isn't any evidence to suggest that 4:8 is more balanced for forum play than 3:9. We've only had a small number of Nightless games. I can only tell you that with random lynches 3:9 is even and the Mafia should win 2/3 for 4:8.
(Just out of curiosity: How many players would you guess are needed to balance, 50-50, a Vanilla game with 10 scum? I may post a little "balance quiz" tomorrow, see how user perception matches up with the EVs.)
"The same ruleset doesn't work for every mod; one tends to evolve as the mod sees what works and what's superfluous/grates on the mod personally/doesn't get enough attention in standard rulesets." - This seems to miss the point of the Open Queue. The Open Queue
isn't for the mods
. It's for the players; standard games that players like and want to play multiple times. As a side benefit, it's a good place for new mods to get the hang of managing a game (and contributing to the site in that particular way, and so on)... not for new mods to try different rules out.
(We may be talking past each other a little bit here though; emphasis: "the important stuff". I think there is certainly some wiggle room regarding deadlines and the like that might depend on the mod's schedule.)
Korts wrote:I don't really have any problems or questions with any of the unflagged setups.
you sound like you may have some reservations though... do you have any?
like, are we skipping a step that you think is important?
do you want more time to think about it?
I seemed to remember some people somewhere raising their concerns about Lovers. I'm not sure, but it was maybe SensFan. However since I couldn't find the post in question and I myself don't have any problem with the setup I don't really have anything to argue.
Ether wrote:I think ruleset control is even worse. The same ruleset doesn't work for every mod; one tends to evolve as the mod sees what works and what's superfluous/grates on the mod personally/doesn't get enough attention in standard rulesets. It's a more valuable learning experience than the PMs are. (Exceptions apply--like, 72-hour deadlines are an entirely different genre. I'd kinda like to see mafia daytalking become a regular variant in rulesets, but can understand the view that it's a role-based function and should be banned from opens unless otherwise specified.)
While I agree with the basis that each mod's ruleset should be their own, a sample ruleset should still be done even if purely as a reference of what are the important points and what may just be fluff. Also, I can easily see prospective mods being either too lazy or too... mentally hindered to make a proper ruleset.
And yes, I'd like to see Ether in the group as well.
Lovers Mafia: generally speaking open 97's Role PMs are the closest to standard (the others are written flavorfully) with the addition of explicitly allowed day talk and without the "pre-Day 1 talking allowed" clause since day talk makes this unnecessary.
Also, the Vanilla PM in 97 says "nightchoices" which IMO should be changed to "actions" since I understand Lovers is nightless.
This is what my Lovers PMs would look like:
I haven't read the rulesets but I will later on. Gotta run now.
mith wrote:(Just out of curiosity: How many players would you guess are needed to balance, 50-50, a Vanilla game with 10 scum? I may post a little "balance quiz" tomorrow, see how user perception matches up with the EVs.)
Let's see. Nightless games are balanced at a 3:1 town:scum ratio, so a night start game should need a 7:1 town:scum ratio. 70 townies, or 69 if it's day start.
EDIT: Actually that doesn't work exactly; a night start game isn't quite the same as a nightless game with half as many players but the same number of scum, because the scum in the nightless game have more voting power. So, more like 65 townies or so.
EDIT2: I think I've got a fundamental error here. Grrrr.
EDIT3: Oh yeah, nice big fundamental error.
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"Xyl was completely berserk" -dramonic
"Xyl's ruthless policy lynching won the game." -Vi
