Mini 733- Congratulations! You are... Mafia (Game Over)

[Kmd4390]

Kmd, what is your opinion of EK in this game?

TBH, I don't see what others seem to see. She seems pretty townie to me. I'd much rather lynch Isacc.

What do you think of my case?

Kmd, nevermind. Plum's stupid buying of the lemonade just screwed up where I was going.

Plum, why the fuck did you just buy lemonade when EK, whom you just voted for and for whom you obviously think is scum, is trying to help caf stay alive without some proof that caf is town? Has caf done anything, especially today, that has been protown in any way?

Not buying lemonade is basically a vote to lynch caf.

[Isacc]

Alright, I'm back from a busy weekend. I don't have the time to figure out what I want to post though, so I'll post something more significant tomorrow. Sorry.

[imaginality]

Kmd, what is your opinion of EK in this game?

TBH, I don't see what others seem to see. She seems pretty townie to me. I'd much rather lynch Isacc.

QFT. I reread the posts of Isacc's and man, I still get a scummy feel from them. I'll join Kmd on this one.

Unvote; Vote Isacc

[imaginality]

EBWOP: QFT. I rerrread ze postz off Isacc's and man, I ztill gettingk scommy veel vrom zem. I vill join Kmd on zis vun. (And I hate makingk rrrushed posts vrom interrrnet cafes, yes?)

[Isacc]

Imaginality: Yay for bandvagoning, yes?

[imaginality]

Ma-ia huu
Ma-ia hoo

[elvis_knits]

Plum, you answered caf, but didn't answer me:

There was always a rival bandwagon to darox, which makes it very interesting to note which wagon people chose. First I was rival bandwagon to darox, and then des was the rival wagon. Plum was on both these rival wagons. Both rival wagons were close to succeeding and overtaking the darox wagon. Plum was looking anywhere for a lynch but at Darox.

Zen, after EK said I don't think we can get a des lynch together before deadline, Plomzh lobbied for EK to veigh in on Dezh again. I really think zat Plomzh vos again lookink for somebody to shift to Dezh so zat he vood bekom ze deadline leench.

I'll respond to this right away because I happen to clearly remember why I did it: EK's phrasing seemed to suggest that EK might prefer a Des lynch if there was any chance it was possible. I wanted EK to confirm or reject that interpretation, which was the first one that occured to me, so that we could have a clearer general understanding of all players' positions on Des and Darox as we approached a lynch influenced partly by the deadline.

I see plum's away for a few days. When she gets back I would like to know what Plum's conclusions are about me and what I said about des vs. darox lynch from yesterday.

Was I looking anywhere for a lynch but Darox? Interesting accusation, as I undeniably was on what EK refers to as the 'rival bandwagons'. On page 29, for instance, I notice I'm already voting EK, and that I'm the only one voting her. No one, at this point, is voting Darox at all. It's on this page that the Darox wagon starts; first imaginality then EK vote him in quick succession, mostly for lack of scumhunting, fair enough. EK was one of the first on the Darox wagon - this might be a slight point in your favor, EK. Something I'm having trouble coming to a strong conclusion on is the fact that Darox seems to argue EK's side in the 'Sly's scumslip or not?' case. I'll refrain from spending time on analysing how right either side of that case actually was any more; suffice it to say that on reread the change of subject is there, though possibly not as strong as I'd suspected, and the fact that Sly had already explained why he'd used the phrasing he did only makes EK's subsequent slip look worse. Thus I still find it a point of curiosity that despite the fact that he calls EK out for her assertation that Hadcow jumped in with Isacc's witch hunt, Darox claimed to be slightly suspicious but much more confused. The problem is that Darox said little more conclusive about anyone (aside from Hascow) than that. Still, for someone he said made a 'rediculous accusation' and implying that her vote on Hascow for what he did was out of place, I might expect something stronger. This makes me lean slightly more towards the possibility that EK is Darox's buddy. If so, she bussed early-ish, though at that point he looked as likely a lynch as any besides her own, and I have seen excellent bussing so well-done and early it was undetectable as bussing.

Everything about the above paragraph is kinda/sorta answering me, but it's very unclear/speculative/wifom.

Please answer this directly:

Did darox seem pro-town to you?
Were you trying to get me to switch my vote from darox to des at the last minute?

Back to the accusation that I was looking anywhere but Darox for a lynch. I'll count you wrong on the first wagon you mention, as at the time I joined it I'd both expounded on my reasoning and there was no Darox wagon at all. I was on the Des wagon, and yes, at that point it was a rival to the Darox wagon. I hope I explained sufficiently why I was on that wagon and why I strongly believed Des was very scummy.

Okay, you thought des was scummy, but was darox NOT scummy? We have to reach a consensus in this game to get a lynch. I respect pursuing different candidates, but when most of the town is looking at a certain player, and moving towards a lynch, you have to decide whether you want to help lynch the person or not. You decided not to. Why?

In the context of Darox, I conclude, EK does not show too many strong signs of sumbuddyhood. Overall, though, my gut and a few incidents with her make me feel she's scummiest.

In regard to what you said with the Darox wagon vs. possibly last-minute Des counter-wagon: If you had proffessed to prefer a Des lynch at that point, after Darox's lynch and flip you would have been, in my mind, either stupid scum (deadline was that night and the general consensus was that Darox was the play,

and

you'd been pushing him for a while) or honest town who reconsidered and legitimately found Des scummier. You supported the Darox, lynch, however, making you either decent scum or honest town. "Honest-to-goodness, Plum," you say, "but that was a useful piece of information! Now we know that . . . EK is either scum or town! What usefulness we have here!" No, my conclusions from your answer to that one question don't happen to be earth-shattering at all on their own they don't give us all that that much. But as the question (am I wrong?) was '"What did you get out of asking that question" the answer is "clarification for myself and anyone else who felt EK had said something somewhat ambiguous, that EK did not believe Des scummier than Darox as the day ended". Is that fact in and of itself conclusive of anything but the above? Not much, sorry.

Geez. You're talking me to death here...

So you're saying you asked for clarification on smething where the clarification leads you to conclude nothing. And you're saying, even if my answer had been different, you probably couldn't have been able to conclude anything. So... what was the point?

It seems more like you were trying to see if you could get me to switch my vote to des.

Your

explanation would make your actions pointless, which I don't believe.

My conclusions about EK on the whole of it, however, are a bit stronger: I think she's the best candidate for scum on terms of her own scumminess thus far. Re: the carp accusation on Hascow:

I dropped the issue at its inception, partly because at face value the accusation was so ridiculous and EK had said, if I recall, that she'd been in need of a reread. However, following up, she did not acknowledge that the accusation was inane but attempted to justify it with weak points. Cow's lack of comment on Isacc's plan was in no way ambiguous enough, much less as scummy as the original accusation's tone would imply, to justify considering a vote. Basically, saying that Cow 'went on Isacc's witch hunt against des' is a lie, implying that he did something scummy he did not do is itself scummy, and the weak justifications don't help.

I fail to see the problem in my suspicions over hascow. If I remember correctly, he didn't comment on isacc's plan, but voted with him. That is enough evidence to suggest he supported the plan. IF he didn't support the plan, he should have said so, since he's voting with the guy. Otherwise it looks like they're in the same boat.

And hascow saying LATER that he never supported the plan looks like a lie to me. Because of where his vote was.

As I've posted before,

Bit of analysis and responses to EK:

Is this it? You have a problem with the me seeing sly's slip?

I have a problem that you state with such conviction that it was a slip, because I don't see that it was any sort of explicit tell at all.

Imaginality suggested it and EK echoed it in no uncertain terms. When Sly explained the above reason as to why he specified 'you (townies)', she deftly changes the subject. Fos: elvis_knits.

Well, I have noticed that people never like it when I call out slips or tells. I'm not sure why exactly. Maybe it's because other people don't rely on gut-reaction tells as much as I do. I tend to hit on small things that don't make sense to me. Often, a small thing will make me look harder at a person, and either through questions or through looking at their other posts, I get more (or less) convinced of them being scummy. Maybe this is not how other people work?

Anyway, I do sometimes get caught up in wording. Because I think it can show how a player is subconsciously considering themselves. If they are putting themselves in the town group, or out of the town group. That's pretty significant to me. Other things I have seen, a player voting someone they consider town, a player slip and name an exact number of scum in a game. That is pretty much defnitely a scum slip. I try to notice things like that. You may not agree with me. It's not an exact science, but it helps me a lot.

As to "deftly changing the subject" I don't remember doing that.

First paragraph is a long ramble about how sometimes you will hit on small things during the course of your scumhunt, and how people 'never like it' when you call out slips or tells. I don't care either way, just that you're arguing that something is a slip when it clearly isn't. Ramble smacks of subtle meta defense, which I generally consider a fairly mild scumtell.

Second paragraph also contains a fair amount of filler, but whatever: Did you reread the exchange and notice that Sly had two short posts using only 'you' pronouns. The first was directed at Darox. The second was phrased fairly naturally in a sentence structure which required parenthetical clarification as to who 'you' referred to, as in the last post it had been Darox, not the town at large.

Deftly changing the subject:

You accused Sly, in no uncertain terms, as having shown a scum slip. Sly commented in his usual kinda useless way, and you told him you were suspicious of the fact that he didn't include himself in the 'town' group. Sly elaborated. Instead of either continuing the argument, or ending it with a statement that 'I still see it as a slip/sorry, my bad' and continuing on, you turned to a completely different subject. You made an incorrect accusation, discussed it, and, Sly having elaborated, you ignore the discussion on your bad accusation and turn the conversation towards Sly's apparently evolving degree of claimed lynch-proofness. He'd already shown it to be varied and/or evolving, at any rate. If you'd been suspicious he'd been lying, you might have brought it up before. As it is, it looks like a convenient attack to pick up when your attack fell flat due to its incorrectness.

Those are the main points in my case on EK, though I might have forgotten to note less major points. I may do a reread of EK but unfortunately my time will be somewhat limited until Wednesday, though I'll be about for anything current.

And I've answered all that before. You're writing us a novel here to say that you think I'm scum because I noticed a "slip" that you don't agree with, and because I talk about more than one thing at the same time ("deflty changing subjects"). Both these points are weak and lame and speculative.

Right now I'll take the liberty to

Vote: EK

OMGUS

[Plum]

Did darox seem pro-town to you?
Were you trying to get me to switch my vote from darox to des at the last minute?

1. Not very, especially the last day or two when he kept refusing to provide the PBPAs he'd promised. Des, however, looked scummier.

2. No, I was trying to clarify, as your wording seemed to suggest you might go for a Des lynch if it had any realistic chance of happening.

Okay, you thought des was scummy, but was darox NOT scummy? We have to reach a consensus in this game to get a lynch. I respect pursuing different candidates, but when most of the town is looking at a certain player, and moving towards a lynch, you have to decide whether you want to help lynch the person or not. You decided not to. Why?

I thought Des was scummier and I therefore persued a Des lynch. We now know that Des wasn't scum, but at that time the best case I could see, and the best case I made, was on Des.

So you're saying you asked for clarification on smething where the clarification leads you to conclude nothing. And you're saying, even if my answer had been different, you probably couldn't have been able to conclude anything. So... what was the point?

It seems more like you were trying to see if you could get me to switch my vote to des. Your explanation would make your actions pointless, which I don't believe.

There was the possibility that, as I'd thought your wording implied, you did prefer a Des lynch, which today would have been interesting and useful in the context of the flips we've gotten, especially because you were one of the first on the Darox wagon. As it stands, you didn't. No, not every probing gets an extremely useful result. This one had the possibility of getting something interesting, but it only served to clarify your position. I try to leave fewer stones unturned; hopefully this will be helpful in the long run, but no, not every stone will turn up little nuggests of gold.

I'd like to urge you to reread the post to which I asked this question, and consider both how realistic the possibility of a Des lynch was at all, and also how clear or ambiguous you were, and why I might have asked for clarification on my interpretations.

I fail to see the problem in my suspicions over hascow. If I remember correctly, he didn't comment on isacc's plan, but voted with him. That is enough evidence to suggest he supported the plan. IF he didn't support the plan, he should have said so, since he's voting with the guy. Otherwise it looks like they're in the same boat.

And hascow saying LATER that he never supported the plan looks like a lie to me. Because of where his vote was.

You must remember incorrectly. Hascow seemed to be voting Des because he'd already stated before that he believed Des to be lying. Isacc was also voting Des at that time.

Then

Isacc issued his scummy-looking ultimatum, and very shortly thereafter Hascow unvoted and voted Sly. I see one bit of Hascow play in between the ultimatum and his vote of Sly, that being a quick question to Isacc re Hascow's past case on him.

It seems a very weak point, in my humble opinion, far too much to use as proof that Hascow in any way "went along with Isacc's witch hunt" as I believe you put it.

And I've answered all that before. You're writing us a novel here to say that you think I'm scum because I noticed a "slip" that you don't agree with, and because I talk about more than one thing at the same time ("deflty changing subjects"). Both these points are weak and lame and speculative.

And I still say you're wrong and that my points are fairly strong. But I'll consent to let everyone else judge for him/herself and not actively argue about it anymore. Everyone can see our arguments on the subject and draw conclusions, as the two of us have explained our positions about as much as they can be explained on this topic. Fine with you?

OMGUS

It's a useful little label when misapplied, isn't it? No, your vote on me in and of itself doesn't seem to have specific scum motivation. To be frank, you were already my top suspect, and I doubt this came as a surprise. I've made prior cases on you and reiterated them here. The vote on me itself I don't object to, because there was some degree of neglect or delay in my posting to answering your questions to me, for which I sincerely apologize - but adding a vote because of apparent neglect, possibly with the added hope that it would pressure me to answer, was not out of place.

@ Sly: Yeah - he made townie-looking attempts at scumhunting, specifically the cases he put together on me and you. Not necessarily arguments I agree with, but they both look and feel pro-town. As Kmd said, it seems fairly clear that if Caf doesn't sell enough lemonade he'll die. EK buying lemonade (especially as she seemed to do so just so we could try to change the topic) could have plenty of motivations, not least in trying to look pro-town by doing so (or, again, it's possible I'm wrong about her) - but not doing my part in keeping a townie-looking player alive because of unclear possible connections with EK would not be a smart or pro-town move on my part.

Next priority is analysis of the Isacc case. Hopefully coming before Wednesday. Still a bit busy (neglecting my term papaer that's due tomorrow ).

[SlySly]

it seems fairly clear that if Caf doesn't sell enough lemonade he'll die. ...but not doing my part in keeping a townie-looking player alive...would not be a smart or pro-town move on my part.

You're right. Probing caf to get a better town read before buying the lemonade would be a terrible idea, especially with the looming deadline and our lack of time left for discussion.

unvote

vote: Plum

[Isacc]

Can we get a vote-count?

I would like to say that I am against the Plum wagon. He has been at the very top of my town-list since day 1, and I see a lot of garbage in the accusations towards him. However, that's for him to fight through.

And I would also like Plum to address the case against me. I would in fact put the same question to anyone who would answer: what is the opinion of Kmd's case against me?

I am, though, severely off-put by EK's claim of "OMGUS" on Plum. Plum had suspected EK since D1, and clearly still did today. Just because his vote came after EK's doesn't make that OMGUS.

And hascow saying LATER that he never supported the plan looks like a lie to me. Because of where his vote was

Funny because

this

looks more like a lie to me.

I am feeling confident in an EK lynch, and I find the Plum wagon very interesting.

Speaking of which,

Sly:

Yesterday you vote EK with no explanation. Today you vote Plum, almost as little explanation. wtfpancakes? You jumped on two opposing bandwagons in less than 12 hours without making a case.

FoS: Sly

.

[SlySly]

Plum's explanation of his lemonade purchase is total bs. There was plenty of time to probe caf before deciding to let him live if it were determined he was town. "Buy lemonade if you think I am town" doesn't clear caf in my opinion and he has not offered much more content than that today.

[Isacc]

Sly: Idk about you but I find Caf as town today as I found him yesterday. He hasn't done anything to make me worry more, so I would have bought the Lemonade too, except now he has enough people.

Also, you completely ignored the focus of my question. You dodged it entirely. Afraid to answer?

[Plum]

@ Isacc, SlySly, anyone who might benefit from a reminder: I'm a girl.

I know there's more stuff for me to address, but I have a term papaer to finish up. Mostly I'm posting here to:

@ Mod: I'll be V/LA Monday possibly through Wednesday night. There's a possibility of access tomorrow afternoon and possibly access even from Tuesday evening on, but no promises, heads up, and all that lovely stuff.

[SlySly]

Yesterday you vote EK with no explanation. Today you vote Plum, almost as little explanation. wtfpancakes?

I answered this question.

Plum's explanation of his lemonade purchase is total bs. There was plenty of time to probe caf before deciding to let him live if it were determined he was town. "Buy lemonade if you think I am town" doesn't clear caf in my opinion and he has not offered much more content than that today.

If I missed another question, please point it out. I have nothing to fear.

[SlySly]

Duly noted, Plum. Please forgive me for my unintentional gender bending.

[Mirth]

Votecount

Isacc - pi - [Kmd, Imaginality]
Elvis - e - [Isacc, Plum]
Plum - ! - [Elvis, Sly]

Not Voting - 1 - [Glork, Plum, Hascow, Caf]

Cups of Lemonade Bought : 3

Plum's V/LA noted. Mod is back. And you're getting a deadline.

Deadline: Tuesday, March 24, 12:00 PM EST

[elvis_knits]

I am, though, severely off-put by EK's claim of "OMGUS" on Plum. Plum had suspected EK since D1, and clearly still did today. Just because his vote came after EK's doesn't make that OMGUS.

Plum was voting me a LONG time ago. I thought Plum was going other places and looking at other people. The fact that she comes back hard at me after I vote her, does seem like OMGUS to me. Others can judge for themselves.

And hascow saying LATER that he never supported the plan looks like a lie to me. Because of where his vote was

Funny because

this

looks more like a lie to me.

I have ot look at the whole thing again... I don't remember all of it. Maybe I am wrong in what I remember. I just remember I thought there was something scummy about hascow there.

]
I am feeling confident in an EK lynch, and I find the Plum wagon very interesting.

The wagon of two people? One of them being me? I can't imagine why you don't like that wagon...

[caf19]

From Plum's defences, it's clear she professes to having had an 'on the fence' mindset towards the Darox lynch.

And I believed that if Darox fell into that position, as he had when the deadline which had been moved fell out, as his play hadn't grabbed me by the shoulders and shouted 'pro-town' at the top of its lungs, I would find a Darox lynch more than acceptable.

1. Not very, especially the last day or two when he kept refusing to provide the PBPAs he'd promised. Des, however, looked scummier.

Those quotations sum up her approach. Fair enough, but why was this not articulated? Plum is a very verbose player and had no problem expressing in great detail her thoughts on the players she suspected (779, for example, is a megapost that addresses both EK and des). Even when players turn up 'middling' on her scumdar, she still tends to elaborate on it (e.g. her posts on dahill vs Kmd, neither of whom she found especially scummy). So why the silence on Darox? I can't seem to explain it. Plum, you said you'd thought you'd made it clear that you thought Darox was not terrible but not brilliant - can you point to any examples of where you might have said this? Without evidence, I can't help but view the case as a 'trust me or don't' affair, which is not entirely solid.

I don't know what to make of the EK wagon. I'll have to read up and assess it.

[Isacc]

EK: In return to your "wagon of two people" comment...I count more than that...Glork attacked Plum hard already today, as did you, and now Sly has jumped on it...

I think I may see a trend by a different person...I am going to do a PBPA as soon as I have time...I'll let yall know afterwards.

[SlySly]

Actually, my vote on EK, though it was not without suspicion about her, was an attempt to jump start a game where the participation has dwindled significantly recently.

[Isacc]

Sly: We're talking about the wagon on Plum, not on EK.

[elvis_knits]

Votecount

Isacc - pi - [Kmd, Imaginality]
Elvis - e - [Isacc, Plum]
Plum - ! - [Elvis, Sly]

Not Voting - 1 - [Glork, Plum, Hascow, Caf]

Judging from this VC, we're going to need to see some movement from some people. Glork and hascow can't vote, I think. SO caf is the only person who isn't voting who can do so. Also, maybe Plum, if she has a second vote (unless that's a typo).

I would like to see some substance from caf. I thought that caf would concentrate better on scum hunting without worrying about the lemonade. So far that hasn't happened. I'm starting ot think I should have promised to buy lemonade if caf agreed to be more involved, but not just bought it like I did.

[SlySly]

That would have been more Protown.

[elvis_knits]

At the time, I didn't think that she'd punk out on helping the town.

[SlySly]

Well, honestly, I am equally suspicious of EK, Plum and Kmd for all buying the lemonade without even trying to probe caf's alignment. caf may be town and he may be scum, I honestly don't know, but it seems like he sure got a free pass today from you 3.

So,

unvote

Unfortunately, the person I would like to lynch the most today is cow and I don't see much hope in getting the needed support for that lynch seeing how he is silenced today.