Mini 729 - WaTR Mafia - Game Over!

[raider8169]

since raider seems to be misunderstanding me as well, I'll make it abundandly clear.

MY ROLE IS "RAM", IT WAS ONLY ME WHO CALLED IT BULLETPROOF. THIS IS NOT FLAVOR, THIS IS THE STANDARD ROLENAME FOR NK-IMMUNE TOWNIE.

I assumed this to be the case but thank you.

---

Mod-Edit Votecount 3-4

Rhinox - 2 (Korts, tubby)
Korts - 1 (Rhinox)

Not Voting - 4 (Vi, freeko, Raider, TonyMontana)

With seven alive, it takes four to lynch.

[raider8169]

Staring with RS, Mega, tubby first

As I am doing tubby in isolation I will be going by post numbers as shown in isolation.

RS just joked around the entire time and Megaflareon was just as useless.

Post 3: Says there could be more then one sheep. Helps his claim a little bit.

Post 4 says he will catch up.

Post 5 Vote on freeko for being missleading

Post 6-9 nothing of importance

Post 10 saying he will have more later - Im noticing this pattern early on...

Post 11 summary of freeko nothing of it really stands out anymore. Most of the quotes is just now freeko has been playing most of the game.

Post 14, Vi is town, nothing to back it up but I guess he knows Vi.

Post 18 supports a mass claim

Post 23, votes Juls not much of a reason why.

Up to post 30 and most of it is just saying how he will catch up. Really never noticed it before but it is getting pretty bad.

Post 36, more talk about sheep.

Post 37 rough recap, seems really weak though.

Post 38 refuses to respond to things people he replaced did. Bunch of other crap but seemed to just try and squeeze by.

Post 41 first real long post however its mainly quotes from someone else. Ends up voting for Rhinox. Decent case, I think its worth of a vote.

Post 42 he sums up everyone but doesnt add much content. More tries to figure out everyone's role.

Post 47 his claim of Dumb Sheep.

Ok something was bothering me and it took me forever to find it. Post 464!

So Juls, Raider and Korts, could you please state if your role name is mentioned in your PM or not?

I dont have a name per say more of a description, not sure if that makes sense or not. I guess it could be a name but it could fall under either category.

I think I was the only one to answer this. Granted it was not directed at anyone but thought it was something worthy to bring up.

Overall I do not think tubby has been giving much in the term of context. Atleast not to a point most of us have been giving. His claim seems really vanilla to me and we know there are no vanilla role. Right now I am leaning scum on tubby.

I just realized I never went back and looks at Juls interaction with other people. I think I will check that out next.

[Rhinox]

Raider, did you try plugging what you received in the foreign language into an online translator? Maybe that will tell you something.

Korts, why don't you give us a little more information about 842 and 844 then. What did you have to get cleared up with the mod, and why didn't it apply, and how does that relate to your "information" you claim to have right now?

Also, if you just interpreted your role as bulletproof, why don't you give us a paraphrase of what your PM actually says.

A paraphrase of the "information" you claim to have about me would be nice as well.

[raider8169]

Raider, did you try plugging what you received in the foreign language into an online translator? Maybe that will tell you something.

That would be a good idea if I had something to plug in. I was just not meant to find out I guess, though I could confirm that there is a role like that only with no one claiming it I am thinking it might be a scum related role.

[tubby216]

no it just says i am a dumb sheep i only care about where my next meal is coming from, i know there is a shepard but all humans look the same to me so i have no clue who he is,,, and it also said there is something else to my role but i would find that out later and thats it other than i win with the town

[raider8169]

I just finished reading over Juls and 2 things came to mind. Early on Juls was pro Vi and doubted their claim but went for a freeko lynch. Never thought about this before but as we know Juls is scum and this was when freeko had to claim I wonder if this was a busing attempt or an attempt to clear Vi when/if freeko flipped town. It adds to my thinking that either Vi or freeko is scum but again nothing to back that up. My money is that freeko is scum and the above was a busing attempt.

[Vi]

Is it really that hard for people to fullclaim the first time so it doesn't look like they're adding to their claims?

...and that's really all I have to say at this point, other than that TonyMontana's claim is actually quite believable given Occam's flip.

Cut by raider: Generally speaking, scum should not bus if they don't have to. Juls' vote - which missed my vote analysis because she jumped off the wagon in favor of Korts on that same page - doesn't look like bussing. With that in mind, I think it's more likely (based on the freeko wagon) that freeko is Town and scum jumped on.

[Korts]

Korts, why don't you give us a little more information about 842 and 844 then. What did you have to get cleared up with the mod, and why didn't it apply, and how does that relate to your "information" you claim to have right now?

What the generic swearword don't you understand about I CAN'T BE ANY LESS AMBIGUOUS?

Also, if you just interpreted your role as bulletproof, why don't you give us a paraphrase of what your PM actually says.

I am a ram. Since I am the favorite of the shepherd, and am thus fed with the best stuff, my wool has grown much thicker. New line: This means that I am NK-immune; I will survive the first NK-attempt against me each night. New line: I win with the town.

A paraphrase of the "information" you claim to have about me would be nice as well.

Again, what does I CAN'T BE ANY LESS AMBIGUOUS imply to you?

[Rhinox]

Again, what does I CAN'T BE ANY LESS AMBIGUOUS imply to you?

That you're feeding us a bunch of BS and don't actually have anything to paraphrase.

I am a ram. Since I am the favorite of the shepherd, and am thus fed with the best stuff, my wool has grown much thicker. New line: This means that I am NK-immune; I will survive the first NK-attempt against me each night. New line: I win with the town.

See, the problem I have is with your first claim in 941:

Ok, here's my claim. I am a ram, and

I am bulletproof because my wool has grown too thick.

I can survive one nightkill attempt per night. I win when every threat to the town has been eliminated.

The bolded above implies to me that you thick fur has grown so thick it can actually stop bullets, making you literally bulletproof, like a bulletproof vest - not the backpedalling "bulletproof is just the generic term I used" explanation you gave. You second paraphrase just doesn't make it any better - you don't show any connection between how having thick wool makes you nk-immune. The "bulletproof wool" did make sense, except there are no guns :shrug:. Every other claim's flavor has made a lot more sense than that.

And don't get pissy with me for questioning you - you're claiming to have information I know to be a lie, and your claim and "information" you claim to have is full of holes and leaking like a sieve, IMO.

[Korts]

The bolded above implies to me that you thick fur has grown so thick it can actually stop bullets, making you literally bulletproof, like a bulletproof vest - not the backpedalling "bulletproof is just the generic term I used" explanation you gave. You second paraphrase just doesn't make it any better - you don't show any connection between how having thick wool makes you nk-immune. The "bulletproof wool" did make sense, except there are no guns :shrug:. Every other claim's flavor has made a lot more sense than that.

Ugh. It's not backpedaling to call a passive ability by its standard name. And are you implying that thick wool stopping bullets makes sense, but it doesn't make sense that it would stop stab-wounds?

Every other claim's flavor has made a lot more sense than that.

Really. I like how you're protecting tubby's weak claim; tell me, how does a sheep with no ability, active or passive, make sense considering the "no vanillas" nature of the setup? And how does his claim relate to his previous denial that he is a sheep?

BTW I'm not pissy. I just can't say anything else regarding my information, exactly because it isn't related to my role. I can try to clarify a bit further: I can claim the information I got, but not how I got it.

[tubby216]

see this is where i am having a hard time.

i believe kort's claim, it something he eluded to earlier. Tm's claim makes sense the lost sheep shepard relationship

but i see where raider and pretty much everyone else think my claim is weaksauce.

hmm perhpas some more re-reading is in order

[TonyMontana]

@tubby. So what you are saying, is that out of the three of us, you believe your claim to be the weakest?


I'd have more doubts about raider, if his story didn't fit so well with my own role.
Rhinox is so-so. I could definitely see him as an SK taking an shot on there not being a vig to counterclaim. I've seen alot worse strategies made as an SK, but still I don't believe he's the play for the day.
Vi/freeko, surely not both scum, and I think we can agree they're neighbours. But they can't confirm eachother, and if one of them were scum, i would put my money on freeko.

Which leaves me with our sheep trio, which at this point I am certain is harboring scum.
Obviously I know my own role. Which leads me to believe either korts or tubby is lying.
I think it is tubby. Not only did the claim of sheep come off as just weak, it seemed like the "vanilla" claim of a vanilla-less game. Just a townie, just a sheep.
That, coupled with the fact that he has, as far as I know, never alluded to being a sheep ever in the game (correct me if I'm wrong), makes me think the claim of sheep might have seemed like an easier endeavor than making up a suitable role.

vote:tubby

[raider8169]

I'd have more doubts about raider, if his story didn't fit so well with my own role.

I dont understand this. How does my story have anything do to with your role other then saying that Occam was talking to a sheep? If you are the sheep he was talking about then it should fit. The other sheep roles seem out of place and I still think that is where the scum can hide in. I am just not positive who is lying.

[Rhinox]

Ugh. It's not backpedaling to call a passive ability by its standard name. And are you implying that thick wool stopping bullets makes sense, but it doesn't make sense that it would stop stab-wounds?

Sure it would, but thats not what you said. You said "I am bulletproof because my wool has grown too thick". The first chance I gave you to correct your role claim was when I explained how bulletproof doesn't fit the flavor. The second chance I gave you was when I asked you to paraphrase your PM for the second time. If bulletproof is the word you used, then there must some other wording in there that explains why your thick wool makes you nk immune. In your second paraphrase, basically all you do is take out the word bulletproof. I would expect it to say something like "you're wool has grown so thick and tough that it can stop any injury". That would be believeable. After 2 chances to paraphrase your role, you don't provide any link to how your thick wool makes you nk immune.

Really. I like how you're protecting tubby's weak claim; tell me, how does a sheep with no ability, active or passive, make sense considering the "no vanillas" nature of the setup? And how does his claim relate to his previous denial that he is a sheep?

When I said that, I didn't mean they were all believeable, I meant that the flavor was consistent. Everything in my role PM is connected and explained. I know why I'm in the woods guarding the road, I know that the lord of the woods hired me to protect the town. Being a trail guard explains why I have a pike, and the flavor about how it breaks after a limited number of uses explains why I am a limited shot. The merchant claims are well thought out, the sheep claims match what we know about Occam's shepherd role (we do know his sheep were lost). Raider's claim is silly, but he knew things before they were revealed in thread, such as Occam being a shepherd. Now that I think about it, I seem to remember others mentioning something about thinking Occam was a shepherd. I'll have to go look and see who.

What I don't like about both Tony's and tubby's claim is that all the role information they provided was available in thread with plenty of advance time to fabricate it into a role claim. Tony's seems proper, but could be just a convincing fabrication. tubby's, on the other hand, contradicts tony's, and when confronted about it seeming like a vanilla role, added in the part about something happening if some action were met. However, Raider said his information mentioned something about "both" sheep, meaning 2 sheep. If there are 2, then tony and tubby are it, because I know you're making stuff up about me. If there is only 1 sheep, then its tony, and korts, you and tubby are scum.

Anyways, this begs the question: if you're so unimpressed with tubby's claim, why aren't you voting him?

One thing I've been considering is that scum have a role that cleans up there kill by making it look like somebody else did it. I've heard of it before, but forget what its called. IMO, it would only make sense if there was a tracker or watcher type role present, but none have been claimed. Also, I would imagine scum would be happy to help me lynch korts-town, and then set me up for lynch tomorrow. Since that hasn't happened, it makes me even more sure that korts is scum.

Not being able to reveal anything else about your information or how you got it is BS, IMO. You must have been given a reason as to why you can't be more direct about it. Can you tell us why?

----------------------------

Anyways, I think there is a second scum, but I'm pretty sure korts is scum at least. I noticed tubby is also voting korts. Bussing? coupled now with the fact that he's saying he believes korts' claim? ugh, idk, pretty sure either freeko or tubby is the second scum. I suppose I'll try to vig one of them tonight - can't guarentee I won't be blocked, or that my pike isn't already broken, however. I guess if tubby is lynched and is town, I should feel pretty comfortable in hitting scum with vigging freeko. If tubby is lynched scum, that makes me pretty useless for tonight if korts is nk-immune scum :shrug: I'm keeping my vote where I know its on scum, however. Raider and Vi are town, IMO. tubby and freeko are the 2 top candidates for 2nd scum, and tony is the 3rd option, but probably town.

[Korts]

I am writing in caps where I'm frustrated.

Sure it would, but thats not what you said. You said "I am bulletproof because my wool has grown too thick". The first chance I gave you to correct your role claim was when I explained how bulletproof doesn't fit the flavor.

Don't be bullshitting me, or at least READ WHAT I WRITE. I explained to you that I was referring to a role ability when saying that I was bulletproof. IT HAD NO RELATION TO FLAVOR. The following part of "because my wool has grown too thick" was the flavor explanation of why I, as a sheep, was bulletproof. DON'T BE SO FUCKING THICK.

The second chance I gave you was when I asked you to paraphrase your PM for the second time. If bulletproof is the word you used, then there must some other wording in there that explains why your thick wool makes you nk immune. In your second paraphrase, basically all you do is take out the word bulletproof. I would expect it to say something like "you're wool has grown so thick and tough that it can stop any injury". That would be believeable.

No really. This is stupid. Just because my Role PM doesn't explicitly state the connection between my thick wool and the following statement that I'm NK-immune doesn't mean it's fake.

After 2 chances to paraphrase your role, you don't provide any link to how your thick wool makes you nk immune.

FOR FUCKSSAKE YOU ARE ARGUING AN IDIOTIC POINT

IT HAS NOT BEEN EXPLICITLY STATED IN MY ROLE PM THAT THERE IS A CONNECTION

NEVERTHELESS

I AM NK-IMMUNE

AND MY WOOL IS SO EFFING THICK

EVEN THICKER THAN YOU SEEM TO BE RIGHT NOW

When I said that, I didn't mean they were all believeable, I meant that the flavor was consistent. Everything in my role PM is connected and explained. I know why I'm in the woods guarding the road, I know that the lord of the woods hired me to protect the town. Being a trail guard explains why I have a pike, and the flavor about how it breaks after a limited number of uses explains why I am a limited shot.

So I got spared the elaborate flavor. What does that prove? Or do you think that if I was scum I'd be so stupid as to fake noticeably less flavor than I originally got?

This is still a bullshit point.

because I know you're making stuff up about me.

You're just saying that because you are scum

Anyways, this begs the question: if you're so unimpressed with tubby's claim, why aren't you voting him?

BECAUSE I have reliable information about you being responsible for Occam's death, like I said numerous times before.

Not being able to reveal anything else about your information or how you got it is BS, IMO.

REMEMBER ME REFERENCING MOD COMMUNICATION?

WHAT THE GENERIC SWEARWORD DO YOU THINK I WAS ASKING ABOUT?

CONNECT THE DOTS PLEASE

BUT OF COURSE YOU WOULDN'T WANT TO

BECAUSE YOU'RE SCUM

[Rhinox]

So I got spared the elaborate flavor. What does that prove? Or do you think that if I was scum I'd be so stupid as to fake noticeably less flavor than I originally got?

This is still a bullshit point.

No, you slipped when providing a reason for why you were bulletproof, and have been trying to backpedal out of it ever since.

BECAUSE I have

reliable information

about you being responsible for Occam's death, like I said numerous times before.

Prove it.

REMEMBER ME REFERENCING MOD COMMUNICATION?

WHAT THE GENERIC SWEARWORD DO YOU THINK I WAS ASKING ABOUT?

CONNECT THE DOTS PLEASE

BUT OF COURSE YOU WOULDN'T WANT TO

BECAUSE YOU'RE SCUM

Firstly, this is the ORLY scum fallacy.

Secondly, you can paraphrase mod communication. [now enter my version of the ORLY scum fallacy] "BUT OF COURSE YOU WOULDN'T WANT TO

BECAUSE YOU'RE SCUM (and you got nothin' on me)" [/fallacy]

Paraphrase it, or you got nothin'. Simple as that.


By the way, if the information was so reliable, why didn't you mention it way back when you referenced your mod communication? Was was it not valid then, but is suddenly valid now?

[freeko]

AND MY WOOL IS SO EFFING THICK

Dos this apply to your skull as well? Man I thought I was pissed off before.

I have reliable information about you being responsible for Occam's death, like I said numerous times before.

I have a piece of the Brooklyn Bridge that I would like to sell you.

I know, I know. Not much here but this is just making my head spin. At least now I know what I was doing to you guys before when I flipped out.

[Rhinox]

Well, maybe I haven't been clear. So I'll spell it out one last time, after which I'll be extremely disappointed if Korts is not lynched today.

Enter Exhibit A: Korts 919 - The information

Hmm. I've had some things clarified.

In, I think, a similar way to how raider gained knowledge of the sheep, I got the information that Rhinox is responsible for the Occam shepherd's death. It is from a reliable source.

That is, pretty much, all I can say.

So I'd really like a Rhinox lynch right now.

Exhibit B: Rhinox 921-923 - My Claim

Facts:

-I killed Juls (No one countered)
-Juls was stabbed (I kill by stabbing with my pike)
-Occam was mauled - disappeared in similar way to BSG (Occam was a mafia kill)

Speculation: If I were an sk who targeted Occam D1 as well as the mafia, I would expect Occam to have been mauled AND stabbed, rather than simply mauled.

Exhibit C: Korts 924

Hmm. Your claim is plausible. However it's not that hard to set up--the pike thing may not have been relevant, and the second piece of evidence was after, from the night kill flavor, it had been apparent what you need to claim. Also even if you're really the cause of that kill you may still be scum with a one-shot vig in addition--knowing my role I think that's quite possible.

Here's my offer. I still think Rhinox is scum; hell, I'm convinced 100%. I don't want him to nightkill tonight. So lynch Rhinox today, lynch me tomorrow if he turns out to be what he claims to be-which he won't. A 1:1 trade is very good even at this point.

So... Korts' explanation for my claim is that I am mafia, with an added 1-shot ability, and used my 1 shot ability to kill my scum partner?!?

1) Given the town roles, does it make sense for the mafia to have an extra 1-shot ability in addition to the regular nightly kills?
2) Traditionally, the mafia cannot target one of their own with their nks... why would a mafia 1-shot be any different?
3) Has anyone actually seen a mafia 1-shot in a mini?

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

So, everything above that line I think is pretty definitive evidence that I'm who I say I am, and korts' information is at best incorrect. I wouldn't say that proves korts is scum though - I think a scum misdirection type role would be plausible; a role that would make it look like someone innocent made a nk. However, korts' responses have made me think that IMO, thats not a probable explanation. Here's a list of reasons for why I think korts is scum:

-Intentional ambiguity about his "information" and where it came from
-being 100% convinced I am scum despite the overwhelming evidence above the dashed line
-Offering a 1:1 trade to lynch him if I'm what I claim (which I am)
-"I don't want him to kill tonight" comment isn't consistency with korts' speculation that I am mafia with a 1-shot - the rest of the mafia can still make their kill even if I'm mafia and I'm lynched, but if I'm a mafia with a 1-shot, I've already used it, and wouldn't be able to make an extra kill - in other words, this sounds like a scare tactic/Appeal to fear.
-Speculation point: If Korts were really town, and because I expect there are 2 mafia remaining, I would expect that the mafia would be itching to help me lynch korts-town so I would look bad tomorrow and be the LyLo mislynch - that hasn't happened, which makes me think its because korts is actually scum.
-Thick, "bulletproof" wool inconsistent with game flavor
-Subsequent backpedaling about the bulletproof wool
-Unwillingness to elaborate on Korts 844 and 842
-The AtE frustration typing in all caps
-The blatant ad hom in Korts 964
-Speculation point: Korts says he didn't get his information through any role abilities. So how then did he get his information? He refuses to say, probably because the information is fabricated.
-The ORLY scum fallacy in Korts 964: "You're just saying that because you are scum" and "WHAT THE GENERIC SWEARWORD DO YOU THINK I WAS ASKING ABOUT?

CONNECT THE DOTS PLEASE

BUT OF COURSE YOU WOULDN'T WANT TO

BECAUSE YOU'RE SCUM"
-Korts lashing out at tubby for the weak claim, yet keeping his vote on me

Now, I completely expect korts to respond in his faux frustration all caps matter and pick out a couple of the weaker points to try to strawman the argument and insist that I'm scum - but I hope I have shown that me being scum is not only unlikely, but improbable and IMO impossible. I think this is a pretty big grocery list of points against korts, and infinitely more believable than korts' "information" that he claims to have, yet fails to produce any evidence that it even exists, let alone that its believable and reliable.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

So who's korts' scum partner? there are only 2 options IMO:

Tubby
-only other player voting for korts; possible bussing
-Later switch to believing korts' claim
-weak claim that contradicts tony's claim
-scummy vibes I get from all his posts, but may simply be a result of his posting style

Freeko
-Was originally speculative about my claim
-After believing my claim, decided to go after tony instead of korts
-After I pointed out in Rhinox 946 that I expected freeko to be anxious to jump back on korts with an I told you so attitude, freeko does just that in 966

I don't know which of the 2 is more likely anymore. I would suggest to lynch korts-scum today, I'll vig one of those 2 tonight (assuming I'm not blocked), and the other can be lynched tomorrow if necessary FTW. Yeah, I'm lining up lynches, but thats because I feel that process will guarentee a town win.

Problems with that plan:
-If Korts is town, and has information, but its not reliable. A mislynch would cause me to not vig anybody tonight, because being wrong would cause a town loss. However, korts insists his information is 100% reliable, and I know (and I think I have proven) that its not. If Korts won't consider the possibility that he has unreliable information, then I have to assume that he's lying.
-Assumes Raider, Vi, and Tony are town. I could be wrong in my analysis about freeko and tubby, and possibly one of those 3 could be the second scum. Also possible is a hidden 4 scum, like an sk who hasn't attempted any kills so far. I find an sk unlikely, however.

[freeko]

-Assumes Raider, Vi, and Tony are town. I could be wrong in my analysis about freeko and tubby, and possibly one of those 3 could be the second scum. Also possible is a hidden 4 scum, like an sk who hasn't attempted any kills so far. I find an sk unlikely, however.

I liked most everything up to this point. What makes you think Raider and Tony are inherently town? Tony you should know was top on the night discussion list for Vi and I had made. The nexxt contestant is sadly no longer with us in Juls. So the only person on that list that I can agree with is Vi. As you well know, we also listed a someone in that as well. We were spending most of the time discussing who that someone could be and reached no relevant conclusion.

-Was originally speculative about my claim

Becuase we should just trust everything that everyone says right? Why bother questioning any of it. As much as I would want to believe you, I still have my doubts. I will be right up front and say that you could very well be what you say you are. On the other hand.... SK perhaps? Guess that speculation comes with the terriory of that particular role. I still cannot get past your interactions with Juls, who we know is scum, over the last gameday. Consider this the agree to disagree land.

As for korts, I really never liked him at all this game.

-After I pointed out in Rhinox 946 that I expected freeko to be anxious to jump back on korts with an I told you so attitude, freeko does just that in 966

I dont see the "I told you so" in there, I am pretty sure that I am questioning/insulting his posts no differently than I have in the past. I just dont have the time anymore due to work to draw up some nice big production.

On that note, I will be in a V/LA situation until this friday as well. Work is becoming intolerable anymore.

[TonyMontana]

What makes you think Raider and Tony are inherently town? Tony you should know was top on the night discussion list for Vi and I had made.

Yeah, how could you not suspect me, when freeko and Vi did last night?

[TonyMontana]

-Occam was mauled - disappeared in similar way to BSG (Occam was a mafia kill)

At the risk of making another "what did i miss?", wasn't Occam mugged?

[Rhinox]

-Occam was mauled - disappeared in similar way to BSG (Occam was a mafia kill)

At the risk of making another "what did i miss?", wasn't Occam mugged?

Sorry, innocent freudian slip. I know it was mugging, but I was thinking about wolves, and wolves maul, and maul starts with m. I was typing in a hurry and excited, it happens.

I liked most everything up to this point. What makes you think Raider and Tony are inherently town? Tony you should know was top on the night discussion list for Vi and I had made. The nexxt contestant is sadly no longer with us in Juls. So the only person on that list that I can agree with is Vi. As you well know, we also listed a someone in that as well. We were spending most of the time discussing who that someone could be and reached no relevant conclusion.

I didn't say they are "inherently" town, but my interpretation is they are likely town. Raider's claim and information is supported by the information he knew before Occam was revealed and his earlier comments - I'm choosing to believe its not an extremely elaborate scum conspiracy. Tony I'm less sure about, but when compared to tubby's claim, and korts who I know is lying, out of the three Tony's claim seems the most valid and accurate to the flavor and what raider had said earlier in the game. The problem I have with it is that everything in his claim was knowledge or assumptions available previously in the thread - nothing about his claim is "new" - its pretty much textbook of how we expected the sheep to work given our knowledge about Occam and Raider's information... almost too textbook.

Becuase we should just trust everything that everyone says right? Why bother questioning any of it. As much as I would want to believe you, I still have my doubts. I will be right up front and say that you could very well be what you say you are. On the other hand.... SK perhaps? Guess that speculation comes with the terriory of that particular role. I still cannot get past your interactions with Juls, who we know is scum, over the last gameday. Consider this the agree to disagree land.

This is not agree to disagree land. You're taking my comment out of context. Its not a problem for you to be speculative initially of my claim, but what I find odd is that despite how sure you've been that korts is scum since the beginning of D2, being irrational and a bit psycho about it, when I actually provide you with evidence that korts is lynch scum, you're skeptical, and you ignore it and decide to go after Tony instead. I find that extremely odd, and it sort of seems like you're trying to push an alternate bandwagon, rather than openly defend your scum partner, or go straight into bussing. For reference, here's what I said the first time I brought this point up, so you don't think I was saying you weren't allowed to be skeptical of my claim:

@freeko: I'm very interested in how you've responded to my claim. Because, up until now, you've done almost nothing but try to get us to lynch korts.

After I claim, you question me - ok, fair enough, it might have been a bit to take in. Then what... you ask for a mass claim, and then go after tony!

But lets not forget that earlier in the day, you were expressing your concerns about tubby as well, and voting for me. This was your chance to jump right back on korts, telling all of us how much you told us so, and you haven't even mentioned his name since I countered his "information". I don't get it, unless you are his scum partner. All game, aside from your assault on korts, it seems like you don't care who's lynched, as long as you can make a silly case and "try" to be clever. You've attacked everyone except for Vi, actually. Now that there are some real major issues with korts, you want nothing to do with it...

If you can't get past my interaction with juls, I suggest you read the final day of Mini 725 where I ended up being lynched (yes Vi, i was finally lynched ) in LyLo because a known scum had a connection to me. I was town, and the town lost because of it.

No, before someone cries foul, I'm not trying to use this to blanket all connections in every situation to be invalid because of this one example, but I'm just trying to show that connections aren't always a solid as you think they are.

Not to mention, Juls was mafia. The ONLY POSSIBLE scum role I can be is SK. Any connection you think I have to juls is simply a coincidence, and not an indication of my allignment.

- bolded because this is a good point, IMO

I dont see the "I told you so" in there, I am pretty sure that I am questioning/insulting his posts no differently than I have in the past. I just dont have the time anymore due to work to draw up some nice big production.

My point was, 966 seems fabricated and out of place, and possibly a direct result fo my comments in 946.

[raider8169]

Rhinox has a solid case. I still have a hard time believing it as Korts has been the person I thought to be town the entire time. I have been strapped for time lately and just found out I have to travel next week. Not sure if I will have internet there yet but hope to find out soon.

[freeko]

My point was, 966 seems fabricated and out of place, and possibly a direct result fo my comments in 946.

So what you are saying is that you cant figure out why I havent jumped back on korts yet? Simple. I am not entirely sure I believe what I am seeing. Instead of jumping down someone immediately (which I already did.. I think it took like 30 seconds for me to vote for you after I saw Juls get killed N2). I get the feeling that my assumptions of who could be what are simply off.. WAY OFF. Dont worry though, there is still plenty of time for me to jump back on korts. Seems he has enough to worry about with someone competent attacking him at the moment and I acutally feel that I would be unneccesarily jumping in the way were I to get in the middle of it right now. As much as I want to go about being a raving lunatic on korts again, it isnt very productive for me to do so.

I find that extremely odd, and it sort of seems like you're trying to push an alternate bandwagon, rather than openly defend your scum partner, or go straight into bussing

Both of these insinuate a link between korts and myself. There is none. Again, pardon me for being patient this gameday. Most likely because I am more pre-occupied with work over these last two weeks. I simply have more relevant things to deal with than this game for the time being.

I think Korts is scum, tony and tubby are both sheep as they say, which fits with raider's info about "both" sheep, and freeko is korts' scum partner.

So what exactly have you proven so far with this? Korts is most likely lying, I will give you that. Since he is lying that presumably makes him scum to you. Problem is, I am not entirely certain I believe you at this point. I would think a guard more likely to act as a bodyguard, but I will admit thats pure speculation. So I have two people I dont exactly believe here.

The circumstances behind korts are simple. I want to stomp his guts out. I am fairly certain I posted why somewhere. Though it is interesteing that once korts backed off of me un D2, he went right after you. It is making more sense now to me as to why this happened with the new information that he has brought to light. Is it a lie? I think so. Do I believe his claim? Not really. Though it could lend credence to his claim that you were responsible for the death of Occam. Plausible scenario is this. You attempt to NK korts N1 and fail. You attempt to NK Juls and are successful. This makes you an SK.

I really cannot figure out what to make of you though. On one hand I want to believe you, as I also am fairly certain that korts is very likely lying. What he has said has no backbone when it is questioned, so it could most certainly be a load of crap. The biggest problem I have with you is that I know you were buddy buddy with Juls the entirety of D2 only to stab the person you are buddying up to the whole time at night. I think your posting of another game to display the flaw in this particular connection is a decoy at best. Im also going to go out and say that if anyone in the game were capable of a believeable fake claim, it would most certainly be you. I will say I dont like you for scum. You killing Juls pretty much takes care of that. Though you turn around and call me korts scumbuddy somehow when I stopped at nothing to attempt to get him lynched almost the entirety of D2. You also may have missed a few interactions of Juls towards me when he was pushing for PK/my lynch during D2 before Vi replaced in.That angers me that you of all people would be so stupid and shortsighted. Maybe I should consider wanting to stomp your guts after korts. I certainly have enough reasons why.

These are all points that I am weighing and with my current work situation I simply do not have the proper time to really sit down and think this all through. For all it matters to me its a town (korts) and 3rd party (rhinox) player fighting over each other while the scum are laughing their way to antoher mislynch. Nevermind that I am almost sold on one of the sheep being a "black sheep" or a "wolf in sheeps clothing". Especially when you are referencing "both" sheep and instead there are actually 3. Something doesnt add up here to me. Pardon me for trying to get more information from other people.

Does it sadden you that I did not react in the way you had expected me to and help you drive home a lynch I do not believe in fully at this point? With most of the cards on the table, I think my evaluation of things has shifted. Mostly because where my suspicions were on N2 were completely and totally wrong given what happened on N2 beisde the discussioni. It revealed to me that I was horribly wrong on where my suspicions laid. So excuse me again for learning my lesson and not jumping at someone.

[Rhinox]

Freeko, as much as it pains me to say this, you bring up a couple good points in a reasonable manner. I wouldn't say it completely clears you, but it drops you back down into a more even level with tubby as to who could be second mafia. If I had to put a number on it, I'd say I'm 75-80% sure that either your or tubby are second scum, and 99% sure that korts is scum (the 1% uncertainty comes from the fact that korts could have been intentionally given incorrect information, and is too stubborn t consider the possibility)

The biggest problem I have with you is that I know you were buddy buddy with Juls the entirety of D2 only to stab the person you are buddying up to the whole time at night.

Well I think I've shown quite convincingly that the only scum role I can possibly be is an sk, which would make my interaction with Juls not an indication of allignment, and just a coincidence.

Im also going to go out and say that if anyone in the game were capable of a believeable fake claim, it would most certainly be you.

PRetty sure theres a name for this logical fallacy, just can't remember which.

Though you turn around and call me korts scumbuddy somehow when I stopped at nothing to attempt to get him lynched almost the entirety of D2. You also may have missed a few interactions of Juls towards me when he was pushing for PK/my lynch during D2 before Vi replaced in.That angers me that you of all people would be so stupid and shortsighted.

It is you who is being shortsighted, and quite frankly ignorant, if you can't realize why people don't just accept the things you view as obvious. For example, I can see how obviously town I am, and how obviously scum korts is, but I have not and will not call anyone stupid and short-sighted for not being able to recognize that.

Maybe I should consider wanting to stomp your guts after korts. I certainly have enough reasons why.

Well, after the last quote, I can see that this feeling is obviously based in OMGUS...

Regardless, you made enough good points in your last post that I no longer consider you the obvscumpartner, but on an even keep with tubby, and both of you are more likely to be scum than Vi and Raider, and Tony is sort of the wild card in the equation, but I feel is more likely town than scum.