Mini 749 - Antarctic Mafia [Game Over]

[orangepenguin]

Activity Check:

pacman281292 - Sun Mar 01, 2009 11:13 am
DraketheFake - Tue Mar 03, 2009 7:46 pm
HowardRoark - Wed Mar 04, 2009 7:06 pm
na85 - Wed Mar 04, 2009 7:29 pm
Debonair Danny DiPietro - Thu Mar 05, 2009 2:00 pm
JereIC - Thu Mar 05, 2009 6:44 pm
Amished - Thu Mar 05, 2009 10:15 pm
Nuwen - Thu Mar 05, 2009 10:26 pm
Fishythefish - Fri Mar 06, 2009 10:33 am
freeko - Fri Mar 06, 2009 4:43 pm
Light-kun - Fri Mar 06, 2009 6:46 pm
ZEEnon - Fri Mar 06, 2009 10:29 pm

Prodding pacman. If you know you're going to be gone, please try to notify me. If you ever notice anyone who hasn't posted in quite a while, please just say

mod: prod _____

in the thread here, and I will get on that.

---------------

Humans have a knack for choosing precisely the things that are worst for them.

Fishythefish - 1 (pacman281292)
Debonair Danny DiPietro - 3 (DraketheFake, freeko, JereIC)
Light-kun - 1 (na85)
freeko - 4 (Debonair Danny DiPietro, HowardRoark, Light-kun, Fishythefish)
pacman281292 - 2 (ZEEnon, Amished)

Not Voting - 1 (Nuwen)

12 alive, 7 to lynch.

-Mod

(Vote Count accurate as of Post 275)

[DraketheFake]

You are actively harming your case against DDD.

You read like a scum desperately trying to get a townie lynched, or a hopelessly tunnelled townie.

Ugh. This this this.

But I don't know that I agree with your vote. It seems that both instances are equally likely, and freeko is the sort of hypothetical townie that a scum being wagoned love to have pop up. Which isn't a strike against DDD, obviously, but these sorts of interactions are rarely good for the town unless he really is just a scum playing in a bizarre fashion.

Does anyone besides me see that pacman281292 is lurking to the extreme? He has not posted since last Sunday I believe. He also fails to acknowledge the accusations voiced by me, as well as by Amished .

Yes, we all see it. We're all aware he's lurking. Everybody in the thread. Your continued hyper-focus on a player who hasn't bothered to defend himself against your accusations as a result of lurking smells a little bit like making a safe case against somebody in order to appear active and avoid re-drawing attention that was on you initially. But I can't say I'm fond of pacman's absence either.

Unvote

for now. Howard, some more thoughts from your corner would be appreciated along with pacman's.

[HowardRoark]

I'm not sure what else I can add at this point. I'm trying to get a feel for everybody, bust as I said before, there are three players who I do not have any kind of feel for: pacman281292, na85, and Amished.

I still dislike freeko's play. He is tunneled on Debonair Danny DiPietro, barely remarks to points against him, and misrepresents players.


I am currently working on a good re-read on JereIC. There was an interesting bit earlier in the game. Post 67: Fishythefish makes some comments about JereIC changing his vote. Post 84: Fishythefish states that the post was not serious. Post 87: JereIC's first post since 67.

It's cool man, I figured you were kidding around and should have made that clearer in my post.

Perhaps I missed something, but this made no sense to me.

Post 100: JereIC is attempting to deflect DraketheFake's attention from ZEEnon to Nuwen.

Not much, but I feel there is something about JereIC that I don't like and want to discover it.

[freeko]

I still dislike freeko's play. He is tunneled on Debonair Danny DiPietro, barely remarks to points against him, and misrepresents players.

Oh, do enlighten us on how I am misrepresenting players.

[Nuwen]

Freeko is obtuse and abrasive in another ongoing game that I'm currently in with him. I can't talk much about the game itself, but I'm beginning to think his posting style is a disposition.

I'm grabbing a cup of coffee to reread and confirm, but I wanted to get that sudden realization out there.

I disagree. His argument isn't just obtuse and abrasive but extends from mere stupidity and dullness into a completely self destructive attack. His argument doesn't make any sense and actually could probably sink in a vat of wet cement. He is thick headed, full of omgus, and just generally seems to be set on disrupting the town in a fashion of making the ability to scum hunt nearly impossible. Only mafia gain from preventing this, and I think that he is a goon of some sort attempting to pass off as misguided townie. (I just don't think any townie is THAT misguided.)

Here's the thing about OMGUS: it's such a weighty accusation

because of the vote's lack of explanation.

OMGUS is almost a myth outside of the random voting stage and occurs only when a player votes, but provides no justification relevant to the vote. The counter-voting action contained in OMGUS is far more common, especially just

after

the random voting stage. With little data to go on out of the RVS, a player being voted for is more likely to create an 'informed' case against the player voting for him, simply because the two have likely interacted more and addressed questions to each other directly.

Two cases built against each other plays no role in OMGUS. I've actually found that the overuse of OMGUS accusations is itself a tell - scum love to remove credence from a well-built case simply because either player is voting for the other.

I definitely agree that Freeko's desperation is disintegrating his case, but I hesitate to call it a tell because I see the same simultaneous behavior in another unrelated game environment.

Hey orangepenguin - will you inform us when Pacman picks up his prod?

Yep - I've given him three days to pick it up and will prod him again 1 more time. If he doesn't respond to that second prod, I will replace him.

[freeko]

that Freeko's desperation

That is wrong.

I dont care if I am lynched. Information will be gained from it. Mostly that DDD is a bag of crap and has played that way the entirety of the first day. Then you have teh second wave of morons that will say that my argument lacked merit. Which means that by using my logic and reasoning to put someone else's lack thereof on display is a bad play.

This goes against everything this game is about. That DDD backtracks on himself many times to qualify himself as a town player tells me that he is telling a lie. He is telling himself and everyone else this same lie in hopes that people wille ventually believe it.

Also, you have the third wave of morons that bother actually play the game and pretty much try to snipe from the sidelines at every chacne possible. Just look at how many of them there are. Finally you have those who dont even bother to play the game like pacman (gone for about a week now) with nothing more than a fleeting suspicion on him. At least next time I know when I join a game , that I shouldnt actually play it.

[Nuwen]

ITT we see appeals to emotion.

[Amished]

Alright, starting from ~ 213 where I last posted. (I've tried kinda keeping up reading the thread at least even though I didn't have much time to post at all. Just letting you know that I kinda see things coming up as I comment on them)

I also want to preface this that I was 35/65 or so for DDD being scum/townie at that point, and lately I think he's been even more townie, probably down to 10-20% or so. I'm saying this first because it appears that probably a good 75% of content since then is about him, his case or his attackers, so this should help give you my perspective.

I'm against LK's analysis of 214. No matter your alignment (unless jester) you want to try to not get hung. Not just scum don't want to be suspicious. Town also want to go about scumhunting in peace, and I don't see how not wanting to be suspicious automatically makes you scum. Also, like DDD assessed of me, and like I've said before, if you're attacked, you defend yourself to the best of your abilities. If you have a piss poor defense, or a weak defense, then we're weeding out weaker town players or quite possibly scum. However if you attack while you're also being attacked (freeko comes to mind) you look like a one tracked side-show attraction and you start failing to help the town no matter if you're right or wrong about the person.

Heh at the irony of freeko's quote in 218

This sideshow needs to be put to an end. You just dont get it. This isnt about DDD, its about the town finding scum.

.... Hmmm. Pretty sure you don't even follow what you're saying yourself either. Later he (freeko) says that DDD doesn't know that he wins with the town, but he knows his alignment. You are full of crap, aren't you?

Welcome Howard!

L-k. Not sure how to take you. You haven't explained your %'s at all to Fishy who specifically asked for your thoughts behind them, or to my implied same question. You also asked about a vote on somebody that wasn't even directed towards the person you thought, and then voted for freeko for 1 lie after attacking DDD with your 3 points shortly before. It looks to me like you're just throwing up a lot of smoke to have you appear that you're in the thick of things.

Still don't like any of freeko's responses. Just seem to be immature and rather insulting. "numbnuts" in 233 is what I'm looking at now.. Also you're just trying to look at everything he does (whether it's genuinely scummy or not) and make it scummy. If he does anything, it'd be under your floundering charge.

DtF: Like above, if you're being attacked by one player over and over and over, and not getting anywhere, I feel anybody (town or scum) would address that person to try to make them see reason. At least I would in that situation, so it seems logical for somebody else to do it.

/is pained by the majority of freeko's posts (edit from reading more: /me wants to hit him over the head with a clue x 4... DDD's vote is not omgus, nor floundering, nor "blah blah blah" or whatever else. If you think his argument is that bad, point to something you've done that directly refutes his claims. Hell, it doesn't even have to be all of his case, just give us something. You're "logic and reasoning" are saying everything he says is a lie" without having proof for damn near any of it.)

(sorry to Roark for not being around more and to na85 about the car accident, hope everybody is ok)

Hmm, this looks to be the majority of what I've missed, if there's anything anybody wants me to comment on or whatever, lemme know.

--- crossposted with freeko/Nuwen ---
Appeals to emotion *and* blatant insults to everyone voting for him (presumably) and those not quite there for voting him. Personally, I think I'd rather not have you join at all, since we're going to replace Pacman if he doesn't get his act together, so that doesn't help the town either.

[DraketheFake]

I think I'm probably going to like this player group.

You havent had the (dis?)pleasure of playing with me yet.

Should be fun times had by all in this game.

Oh, how fitting. I just didn't think that you were actively going to campaign to make my stance wrong.

I dont care if I am lynched. Information will be gained from it. Mostly that DDD is a bag of crap and has played that way the entirety of the first day. Then you have teh second wave of morons that will say that my argument lacked merit. Which means that by using my logic and reasoning to put someone else's lack thereof on display is a bad play.

Kindly point to some logic and/or reasoning that you've used. All I've seen you do is flail away at the words "backpedaling" and "qualifying" for three pages.

This goes against everything this game is about. That DDD backtracks on himself many times to qualify himself as a town player tells me that he is telling a lie. He is telling himself and everyone else this same lie in hopes that people wille ventually believe it.

I don't even know what you're getting at anymore, given that this statement doesn't make sense. I mean... of course he's telling us he's a town player? He's trying not to get lynched? You'd actually need to provide some specific examples of where he's acted as "not a town player" to prove that he was lying, and you seem content to offer glittering generalities.

Also, you have the third wave of morons that bother actually play the game and pretty much try to snipe from the sidelines at every chacne possible. Just look at how many of them there are. Finally you have those who dont even bother to play the game like pacman (gone for about a week now) with nothing more than a fleeting suspicion on him. At least next time I know when I join a game , that I shouldnt actually play it.

Yeah, nothing more than a fleeting suspicion. It's not like more than half of the players in the game haven't pointed it out or anything.

I dunno, man. I find your accusations here fairly baseless and I find the way you're self-destructing to be pretty unfortunate if indeed you are a town player (an issue I guess you won't bother addressing for fear of being called on your own crap logic about claimed town players).

[Fishythefish]

Perhaps I missed something, but this made no sense to me.

I believe you missed post 77.

[HowardRoark]

Thanks Fishythefish. Somehow I missed that, especially that line at the bottom.

@freeko: Here are a few quick ones . . .

I personally support the RVS as the only effective way to start a game.

This is your first misconception.

How is an opinion a misconception?

I have one piece of confirmed information. I win with the town.

This is also false. You know your flavor name, you know your rolename, you know your role ability (if applicable), and you know your alignment.

Way to take an incomplete statement and attempt to pass it off as a lie. Now that you had me look you over again, I find this piece even more suspect. I don't see any note from orangepenguin about flavors. Do you have more information that the majority of us do?

See also my post 257.

[Nuwen]

"Flavor" is anything other than standard role names and town-type theme. The fact that we're a bunch of penguins floating on a 'berg is a flavor.

Our intro is an example of flavor text:

Antarctica, the most beautiful place on Earth. With lovely weather reaching highs of -16° F, with its ice and its snow. Most importantly though, it is home to penguins of all walks of life. You live in the South Pole. Members of your colony have begun to disappear, one penguin each night. You always discover the bloody body, conspicuously placed near the edge, by the big water. sticking out in large contrast against the white snow, stained by the blood of your fallen comrade. The leader of the colony was Humboldt, an elderly and wise penguin. He has concluded that there is EVIL afoot. Predators about....a..a...a mafia. You're penguins, so you have some vision problems. Go figure. But each day, you may penguin squabble amongst yourself and decide to lynch one person, hoping to find the mafia...whoever they are..and restore peace in Antarctica, before the mafia take total control...forever.

[freeko]

How is an opinion a misconception?

Becuase a dumbass like you needs to be set straight. It is not a misconception. It is flaot out WRONG. You could star the game by naming coolors. Hell you could play duck duck goose. More to the point, the random voting stage (RVS) is NOT the only way to start a game. I could think of a few ways to start a game without a single vote being cast easly int he game but that might be too much for your limited brain capacity to handle.

Way to take an incomplete statement and attempt to pass it off as a lie. Now that you had me look you over again, I find this piece even more suspect.

I don't see any note from orangepenguin about flavors.

Do you have more information that the majority of us do?

Well done Skimzilla. Some of us actually read the part about this being

ANTARCTIC Mafia

. Some of us even read the opening flavor. So yet again another numbnuts that needs to pay attention to the game instead of being Sir Skims Alot. You must have been put in the microwave one too many times by your parents when you were younger werent you?

[Nuwen]

dumbass

Did you really just ignore the brunt of this page's posts in favor of ad homming our newer replacement?

Really?

Vote: Freeko

- L-2

[DraketheFake]

Give Slim Shady here some time, I'm sure he'll get to spewing aggression and personal attacks at everybody else in due time.

Though to be fair your concentration on the facts that Howard is A. Newer to the game and B. A replacement really have no bearing on what you're voting freeko for.

[Nuwen]

That's true. I kept mistyping HowardRoark and just decided to pull another identifier out of my ass. I should make it very clear that feeko earned my vote because:

1. An ad hom attack took precedence over addressing real questions. Ad homs are unacceptably anti-town to begin with - Freeko is attempting to counter HR's posts by insulting them. Prioritizing that over all else compounds anti-town behavior upon anti-town behavior.

2. Rather than accepting opinion as opinion ("I personally support the RVS as the only effective way to start a game"), Freeko is ensuring that every statement in this game has a binary value: correct or incorrect. According to freeko, the contents and basis of every case against him are either dumb or blatantly 'incorrect.'

3. Freeko's case on DDD originally seemed sincere, but has since been wraithed into a single-minded assault with the intention of lynching DDD at any cost.

Whatever Freeko flips, I'm not positive that DDD will be the opposite alignment.

[HowardRoark]

Okay, my misunderstanding of flavor is officially retracted.

[freeko]

Did you really just ignore the brunt of this page's posts in favor of ad homming our newer replacement?

Really?

The brunt of this pages posts are made by people who if you took their combined IQ and added them up. You would probably still need to add a few more to get to my show size. Sadlt for the rest of the town I just dont really care at this point and will take the time out to smell the roses and insult everyone I can. So when I spot something stupid, you can bet I will take care of it. I could probably do a neat little comparison about how many times DDD has backtracked on himself compared to me (4 to 0 for those keeping score). Maybe I could count the number of times that DDD has lied to himself and everyone else here to say he is a "town player" (at least 5 blatant attempts by him to 0 from me) Since I know the only way alignment is proven at this point in the game is by being flipped.'

So if I am going to be lynched. Im going to be lynched for being an ass to everyone. NO one really cares about my alignment in the game anyway. Just dont say I am not an equal opportunity insulter.

[JereIC]

Perhaps I missed something, but this made no sense to me.

As Fishy pointed out, it does make sense in context of my post 77.

Post 100: JereIC is attempting to deflect DraketheFake's attention from ZEEnon to Nuwen.

Not much, but I feel there is something about JereIC that I don't like and want to discover it.

I guess I can see that effect, but it wasn't my intent. It seemed like he made a strong argument against ZEEnon and a weak one against DDD (as I thought it could be applied against Nuwen as well, who he hadn't mentioned), but then voted for DDD, and I was trying to figure out why.

Nuwen, post #290 is a policy lynch argument, right? I only ask because you were pretty explicit about your vote for Mizz.Mafia being a policy lynch vote, whereas you haven't used the same term with the case against freeko.

[HowardRoark]

I disagree that a stronger case was made against ZEEnon than against Debonair Danny DiPietro, but that's a matter of opinion.

More interesting to me is the fact that you feel Nuwen was scum-hop voting. (The main reason presented in DraketheFake's case against Debonair Danny DiPietro.) His vote had been on ZEEnon since the RVS.

[Nuwen]

Nuwen, post #290 is a policy lynch argument, right? I only ask because you were pretty explicit about your vote for Mizz.Mafia being a policy lynch vote, whereas you haven't used the same term with the case against freeko.

Nope, 290 outlines why I believe freeko's behavior is the scummiest play thus far. His single-minded focus on DDD, emotional statements like "So if I am going to be lynched. Im going to be lynched for being an ass to everyone. NO one really cares about my alignment in the game" definitely seal my suspicion.

A policy vote usually has very little else besides a policy argument behind it. Example: lynch all liars, because lying and complex town-side gambits are 1) Detrimental to that game's town 2) Need to be purged from the meta.

(woke up still drunk from the night before, hope this post is cohesive. I read it a few times and I think it is, but that's subjective judging)

[JereIC]

I disagree that a stronger case was made against ZEEnon than against Debonair Danny DiPietro, but that's a matter of opinion.

More interesting to me is the fact that you feel Nuwen was scum-hop voting. (The main reason presented in DraketheFake's case against Debonair Danny DiPietro.) His vote had been on ZEEnon since the RVS.

Actually, you're right in your first point, DtF wasn't building any sort of case against ZEEnon, he was saying ZEE was not particularly suspect. And, I agreed with him in post 100. I have no idea what the hell I'm talking about in 293.

Your second point is just plain wrong. In post 100 I noted that Nuwen hadn't changed her vote, so it's demonstrably false that I thought "Nuwen was scum-hop voting." In fact, I explicitly asked DtF if it was DDD's hopping that made his arguments more suspect. DtF replied, in post 106, that he wasn't voting for Nuwen because she presented her arguments which made her less suspect, so your claim that his main reason for voting DDD in post 97 was the hop is questionable.

[HowardRoark]

Here's the reason before the vote.

This is a

textbook[/b] scum-hop.

Here's the vote hopping reason.

Like, I think I may have read this exact post elsewhere. ZEE's "aneurysm" about random votes is not "crazy" suspicious; it's at most mildly suspicious, and in the case where the target becomes hyper defensive and starts posting blocks of text I think it's probably more likely a flustered townie.

More explanation of his not voting for ZEEnon.

The part I bolded is particularly troublesome, because it implies some illusory connection between the way someone acts under pressure and the number of votes they have on them. You already know how ZEEnon is going to react under pressure: he flipped out when there were three obvious joke votes and almost gave up on the game. If you find it suspicious, you find it suspicious, but your referendum about how it's a "pressure vote" combined with your comically overblown emotional language make it far more likely to me that you're scum that ZEEnon is.

More on why Debonair Danny DiPietro's vote seem's scummy.

your claim that his main reason for voting DDD in post 97 was the hop is questionable.

Really?

I apologize for the misunderstanding concerning Nuwen and vote hopping.

[JereIC]

How does any of that contradict what I wrote? My point in 296 was that DtF had gone after DDD for a poor argument, not for jumping votes, and that Nuwen was not as suspect because she had better arguments, not because she was sticking with her original vote. Your post just shows that he spent most of his time on DDD's poor logic, and only briefly mentioned the fact that DDD had switched votes. I asked him directly in post 100,

I'm not sure why you find DDD scummy when Nuwen is using basically the same arguments. Could you point out what exactly made DDD's post scummy and Nuwen's posts not?

Is the fact that he's jumping votes while Nuwen is just backing up her original vote with a serious argument?

In post 106, he replied,

Because I believe Nuwen is making them is good faith. He directs questions at ZEEnon about his behavior and asks for clarification. DDD's post smacks of trying to strike while the iron's hot, and his shift from "This is suspicious" to "Nevermind this is really a pressure vote" is bullshit.

Now, maybe you saw something I missed, or maybe you can show that DtF was implicitly using the vote-hop as further evidence of DDD's scumminess. If so, I'd love to see it. If not, then I'd like to know why it would have been important if I was wrong about the hop being a major part of DtF's case against DDD.

[HowardRoark]

I see the "textbook" comment and the latter half of the argument as one in the same. Perhaps I am missing the difference. Thank you for clarifying.