My apologies. I've been somewhat short on time (though not completely, as EK noted) and basically have been ontinuing to dread the thought of the megapost I'll have to make, analysing the case on Isacc, the case on EK (I'm leaning towards voting her, for reasons I've stated, though not fully elaborated on, previously) and other stuff.
But first, it seems I've neglected to answer some of EK's questions:
elvis_knits wrote:Plum, you answered caf, but didn't answer me:
elvis_knits wrote:There was always a rival bandwagon to darox, which makes it very interesting to note which wagon people chose. First I was rival bandwagon to darox, and then des was the rival wagon. Plum was on both these rival wagons. Both rival wagons were close to succeeding and overtaking the darox wagon. Plum was looking anywhere for a lynch but at Darox.
elvis_knits wrote:Plum wrote:
I'll respond to this right away because I happen to clearly remember why I did it: EK's phrasing seemed to suggest that EK might prefer a Des lynch if there was any chance it was possible. I wanted EK to confirm or reject that interpretation, which was the first one that occured to me, so that we could have a clearer general understanding of all players' positions on Des and Darox as we approached a lynch influenced partly by the deadline.
I see plum's away for a few days. When she gets back I would like to know what Plum's conclusions are about me and what I said about des vs. darox lynch from yesterday.
Was I looking anywhere for a lynch but Darox? Interesting accusation, as I undeniably was on what EK refers to as the 'rival bandwagons'. On page 29, for instance, I notice I'm already voting EK, and that I'm the only one voting her. No one, at this point, is voting Darox at all. It's on this page that the Darox wagon starts; first imaginality then EK vote him in quick succession, mostly for lack of scumhunting, fair enough. EK was one of the first on the Darox wagon - this might be a slight point in your favor, EK. Something I'm having trouble coming to a strong conclusion on is the fact that Darox seems to argue EK's side in the 'Sly's scumslip or not?' case. I'll refrain from spending time on analysing how right either side of that case actually was any more; suffice it to say that on reread the change of subject is there, though possibly not as strong as I'd suspected, and the fact that Sly had already explained why he'd used the phrasing he did only makes EK's subsequent slip look worse. Thus I still find it a point of curiosity that despite the fact that he calls EK out for her assertation that Hadcow jumped in with Isacc's witch hunt, Darox claimed to be slightly suspicious but much more confused. The problem is that Darox said little more conclusive about anyone (aside from Hascow) than that. Still, for someone he said made a 'rediculous accusation' and implying that her vote on Hascow for what he did was out of place, I might expect something stronger. This makes me lean slightly more towards the possibility that EK is Darox's buddy. If so, she bussed early-ish, though at that point he looked as likely a lynch as any besides her own, and I have seen excellent bussing so well-done and early it was undetectable as bussing.
Back to the accusation that I was looking anywhere but Darox for a lynch. I'll count you wrong on the first wagon you mention, as at the time I joined it I'd both expounded on my reasoning and there was no Darox wagon at all. I was on the Des wagon, and yes, at that point it was a rival to the Darox wagon. I hope I explained sufficiently why I was on that wagon and why I strongly believed Des was very scummy.
In the context of Darox, I conclude, EK does not show too many strong signs of sumbuddyhood. Overall, though, my gut and a few incidents with her make me feel she's scummiest.
In regard to what you said with the Darox wagon vs. possibly last-minute Des counter-wagon: If you had proffessed to prefer a Des lynch at that point, after Darox's lynch and flip you would have been, in my mind, either stupid scum (deadline was that night and the general consensus was that Darox was the play,
and
you'd been pushing him for a while) or honest town who reconsidered and legitimately found Des scummier. You supported the Darox, lynch, however, making you either decent scum or honest town. "Honest-to-goodness, Plum," you say, "but that was a useful piece of information! Now we know that . . . EK is either scum or town! What usefulness we have here!" No, my conclusions from your answer to that one question don't happen to be earth-shattering at all on their own they don't give us all that that much. But as the question (am I wrong?) was '"What did you get out of asking that question" the answer is "clarification for myself and anyone else who felt EK had said something somewhat ambiguous, that EK did not believe Des scummier than Darox as the day ended". Is that fact in and of itself conclusive of anything but the above? Not much, sorry.
My conclusions about EK on the whole of it, however, are a bit stronger: I think she's the best candidate for scum on terms of her own scumminess thus far. Re: the carp accusation on Hascow:
Plum wrote:I dropped the issue at its inception, partly because at face value the accusation was so ridiculous and EK had said, if I recall, that she'd been in need of a reread. However, following up, she did not acknowledge that the accusation was inane but attempted to justify it with weak points. Cow's lack of comment on Isacc's plan was in no way ambiguous enough, much less as scummy as the original accusation's tone would imply, to justify considering a vote. Basically, saying that Cow 'went on Isacc's witch hunt against des' is a lie, implying that he did something scummy he did not do is itself scummy, and the weak justifications don't help.
As I've posted before,
Plum wrote:Bit of analysis and responses to EK:
elvis_knits wrote:Is this it? You have a problem with the me seeing sly's slip?
I have a problem that you state with such conviction that it was a slip, because I don't see that it was any sort of explicit tell at all.
elvis_knits wrote:plum wrote:Imaginality suggested it and EK echoed it in no uncertain terms. When Sly explained the above reason as to why he specified 'you (townies)', she deftly changes the subject. Fos: elvis_knits.
Well, I have noticed that people never like it when I call out slips or tells. I'm not sure why exactly. Maybe it's because other people don't rely on gut-reaction tells as much as I do. I tend to hit on small things that don't make sense to me. Often, a small thing will make me look harder at a person, and either through questions or through looking at their other posts, I get more (or less) convinced of them being scummy. Maybe this is not how other people work?
Anyway, I do sometimes get caught up in wording. Because I think it can show how a player is subconsciously considering themselves. If they are putting themselves in the town group, or out of the town group. That's pretty significant to me. Other things I have seen, a player voting someone they consider town, a player slip and name an exact number of scum in a game. That is pretty much defnitely a scum slip. I try to notice things like that. You may not agree with me. It's not an exact science, but it helps me a lot.
As to "deftly changing the subject" I don't remember doing that.
First paragraph is a long ramble about how sometimes you will hit on small things during the course of your scumhunt, and how people 'never like it' when you call out slips or tells. I don't care either way, just that you're arguing that something is a slip when it clearly isn't. Ramble smacks of subtle meta defense, which I generally consider a fairly mild scumtell.
Second paragraph also contains a fair amount of filler, but whatever: Did you reread the exchange and notice that Sly had two short posts using only 'you' pronouns. The first was directed at Darox. The second was phrased fairly naturally in a sentence structure which required parenthetical clarification as to who 'you' referred to, as in the last post it had been Darox, not the town at large.
Deftly changing the subject:
You accused Sly, in no uncertain terms, as having shown a scum slip. Sly commented in his usual kinda useless way, and you told him you were suspicious of the fact that he didn't include himself in the 'town' group. Sly elaborated. Instead of either continuing the argument, or ending it with a statement that 'I still see it as a slip/sorry, my bad' and continuing on, you turned to a completely different subject. You made an incorrect accusation, discussed it, and, Sly having elaborated, you ignore the discussion on your bad accusation and turn the conversation towards Sly's apparently evolving degree of claimed lynch-proofness. He'd already shown it to be varied and/or evolving, at any rate. If you'd been suspicious he'd been lying, you might have brought it up before. As it is, it looks like a convenient attack to pick up when your attack fell flat due to its incorrectness.
Those are the main points in my case on EK, though I might have forgotten to note less major points. I may do a reread of EK but unfortunately my time will be somewhat limited until Wednesday, though I'll be about for anything current.
Right now I'll take the liberty to
Vote: EK
Mod: There are Nine alive and by my count seven votes in play, though yesterday Glork counted for the majority needed. How many votes will be needed to lynch today?
That would be telling.
Also, Kmd seems to have somewhat convincingly proved that Caf's lemonade sales may be instrumental in keeping Caf alive. I'm willing to buy, as Caf hasn't struck me as noticably scummy yet, and he doesn't look worthy of death yet. I'm starting to be less worried about detrimental effects, as none have shown themselves so far, though I wouldn't really put anything past our Mod.
Buy Lemonade
