Mini 747 Over.

[Cephrir]

Why didn't you vote in post 149, Cephrir?

Playstyle thing, I guess. I generally don't vote lightly.

[PJ.]

I don't believe picking on weak players is to best way to get valid slips.

[geraintm]

in conclusion,

FOS: geraintm

.
for having his vote still in the random stage .
is there a reason it is still there ?

no, not really. just not seen a compelling case as of yet to switch it. i tend to be quiet slow with my votes, why are you that freaked out i still have my vote on you?

I think I'm still searching and trying to adapt my own playstyle to fit with others, but my comments and tactics have merit. Picking on weaker players early seems perfectly valid, as the only time you really ever find scum on D1 is when they slip. Or conversely, developing town reads early can narrow the scum-pool.

but so far, all i get from you is you look scummier than any person you are trying to pick on. your wish to pressure a weaker player into slipping just to me, never looks like it is going to work. has your attempt to pressure me worked??

[Shadow Knight]

I gotta agree. Taking on the weakest players and lurkers is definitely a scum tactic. I know I've managed to get a few people lynched as scum, simply from hunting lurkers. For that reason, more than any other,

unvote, vote Hoopla

[ZazieR]

Nicolios (sorry about before), it maybe didn't have a question, but Charter was responding to you about something. Afterwards, Khel responds to Charter's response. It's just weird that Khel responds to a post in which Charter says that he wants to vote you, while you don't respond to it.

[Hoopla]

I gotta agree. Taking on the weakest players and lurkers is definitely a scum tactic. I know I've managed to get a few people lynched as scum, simply from hunting lurkers. For that reason, more than any other,

unvote, vote Hoopla

I disagree completely. It's in the town's interests to pressure weaker players, and persuade lurkers to contribute more. The more data we have to work with this first day, the better. Putting players out of their comfort zones has a far better chance of creating an adverse reaction, than 'standard' scum-hunting.

From your post it almost sounds as if you have a model of play you expect scum to adhere to each game. I think what's more interesting is that you're using your own scum-play to incriminate others, but I think moreso it's a cleverly disguised defense post too. It's almost a 'this is what I do as scum, I'm not doing this now' type post, which subliminally justifies your game so far.

As far as geraintm goes, I'm satisfied with his recent posts.

Unvote

[Erratus Apathos]

Well I didn't think about it until afterwards I suppose. That's probably one of the reasons I'm horrible as town. It's exactly the kind of thing that gets me lynched early on a regular basis.

Past examples?

...still waiting for these...

still not happy, you are still being vague about your serious vote and you now look like you are switching to an easy target in nico.

It's a weak vibe based on a page two post, what in the world do you expect? And yes, nicolio is an easy target. That doesn't make her a bad target.

Nicoliosgotpolio: How can you tell that Panzerjager is pushing a case away from himself but not tell which case that is?

I believe what I meant by case was, he's trying to put attention elsewhere, and avoid potential cases. Putting the attention in a different place. Like, he was distracting us from scumminess with his fake roleclaim. The only example I could think of is that a kid is a class clown so that other people will be distracted and not notice he's being beaten at home?

It was a long time ago... I think that was my train of thought.

Alright, I can see that.

I gotta agree. Taking on the weakest players and lurkers is definitely a scum tactic. I know I've managed to get a few people lynched as scum, simply from hunting lurkers.

If lynching lurkers is "definitely a scum tactic", how did you get lurkers lynched? You can't unless you can convince the townies to lynch the lurker. But oh wait, townies would never lynch the lurker because it's

definitely

a scum tactic. You're full of it, die scum.

Unvote
Vote: Shadow Knight

[ZEEnon]

no, not really. just not seen a compelling case as of yet to switch it. i tend to be quiet slow with my votes, why are you that freaked out i still have my vote on you?

Seems more like you want to stay clear of attention.
Being slow and quiet with your votes is more anti-town than anything.
Why are you twisting what I say? Where does it say that i'm freaked out about your vote?
Where does it even

hint

that? I think you are fabricating lies, and therefore,

Vote: Geraintm

.

[charter]

Good catch EA.

[geraintm]

I disagree completely. It's in the town's interests to pressure weaker players, and persuade lurkers to contribute more. The more data we have to work with this first day, the better.

those aren't the same thing, lurkers and weaker players are very different. got no problem going after lurkers. i just didn't like the way you have gone about it, felt it was counterproductive.
and am waiting now on shadow's response to Erratus' post.

no, not really. just not seen a compelling case as of yet to switch it. i tend to be quiet slow with my votes, why are you that freaked out i still have my vote on you?

Seems more like you want to stay clear of attention.
Being slow and quiet with your votes is more anti-town than anything.
Why are you twisting what I say? Where does it say that i'm freaked out about your vote?
Where does it even

hint

that? I think you are fabricating lies, and therefore,

Vote: Geraintm

.

why is being slow with my votes anti-town?
one, i know i am very bad at catching scum day one, so i try and wait and make sure i am pretty confident before i vote.
i also don't think switching my vote 4 or 5 times a day helpful, when otehrs do it it just creates too much noise for me to look through, i find people who jump a lot just have a scummy vibe no matter if they are town or not.

and no, you didn't freak out as i wrote, sorry for putting it so strongly, but giving me a FOS because i hadn't moved my random vote from you, well, lets just say i thought you were over reacting from still having a random vote on yourself.
but i think you are really pushing it saying i fabricated lies

in conclusion,

FOS: geraintm

.
for having his vote still in the random stage .
is there a reason it is still there ?

no, not really. just not seen a compelling case as of yet to switch it. i tend to be quiet slow with my votes, why are you that freaked out i still have my vote on you?

there are no lies there, i admit using the word freaked out might have been a little strong, but accusing me over creating lies? I'd say the same to you...

[Shadow Knight]

@Hoopla- its not that I have a standard list of "things scum do". Its more that I don't have a lot to go on here. Normally, I look for things that strike me as odd (for whatever reason), at that point, I do an in depth read focused on that player and how they interact with others. I'm not clearing myself with an anti-lurkerhunting statement and I know that. I am merely using my previous experience as a tool for finding scum. My logic is that if I've pulled it off as scum, then other scum can pull it off. I disagree about pressuring weaker players. Both when I was a weaker player and watching other newer or weaker players, both tend to melt down under pressure whether they are scum or not. A frantic townie trying to prove his/her townieness tends to sound a lot like a frantic scum trying to prove his townieness.

@EA- Are you seriously telling me that you've never been town and gotten talked into lynching a lurker? If so, I guess I have to give you props, but I know I've been on both sides of that one. I have been both scum trying to get a lurker lynched and town being duped into lynching a lurker.

[Kmd4390]

Vote Count Number 6:
Hoopla- (3)- Khelvaster, Panzerjager, Shadow Knight
Shadow Knight- (2) - Theinin, Erratus Apathos
nicoliosgotpolio- (1) - ZazieR
ZEEnon- (1) - geraintm,
Panzerjager - (1) -nicoliosgotpolio
Khelvaster- (1)- Charter

Not Voting: ZEEnon, Cephir, Hoopla

With 12 alive, 7 will lynch.

Deadline March 10 at 4:02 PM EST

Theinin has 35 minutes before I replace him.

[Hoopla]

@Hoopla- its not that I have a standard list of "things scum do". Its more that I don't have a lot to go on here. Normally,

I look for things that strike me as odd (for whatever reason), at that point, I do an in depth read focused on that player and how they interact with others.

I'm not clearing myself with an anti-lurkerhunting statement and I know that. I am merely using my previous experience as a tool for finding scum. My logic is that if I've pulled it off as scum, then other scum can pull it off.

The bolded section is the main point I want to address here - I think it's a dangerous mindset to get stuck in.

When playing as town, you're searching for a minority group. It's quite easy for the human mind to naturally associate or assume suspicion of players that stand out, as they are the easiest to apply to this group. Odd play is important to note, but determining whether it is more likely to be motivated by scum or town play is even more important. In saying that though, it isn't overly difficult to evade heavy scrutiny as scum or town throughout the game (and particularly D1), so pressuring those lurking to submit their opinions is important to create links.

--

Deviating slightly, I'm of the firm belief the more active the town is, the more pressure it puts scum under to continue to lie. I think it's important to address the issue of lurking early to identify whether it is a problem, and whether policy lynches are warranted. If so, getting them done as early in the game as possible is ideal. If the town promotes a slow, lazy, low-information game, scum can quite happily lurk, rather falling into those 'standing out' slots which could be dangerous.

As much as it denies information the next day, I still think the chances of finding scum during the day with a productive, interactive town is higher than finding buddying links, with a lazier town still alive.

Tags Fix'd

[Kmd4390]

Sensfan replaces Theinin, effective immediately.

[geraintm]

hoopla, i have no problem with going after lurkers, but your vote for niciolos and for me came so out of the blue that instead of you applying pressure to lurkers and weaker players, it just made you look scummy.
and your vote for me wasn't because i was lurking or a weak player but for another reason.

and i think there is a very big difference between lurkers and weak/new player which you didn't differentiate between.

dunno what else to say, you have got your play style, i just don't agree with it 100% and i think you might be picking and choosing when you play by it

[Khelvaster]

I gotta agree. Taking on the weakest players and lurkers is definitely a scum tactic. I know I've managed to get a few people lynched as scum, simply from hunting lurkers. For that reason, more than any other,

unvote, vote Hoopla

So, essentially what you are saying is that voting for the worst players and the noncontributors is scummy, even on the first day.

I must disagree. If you don't vote for the people who made the scummiest slips, who do you vote for? Those who made the second scummiest slips? The best players? Those who are most active?

You're way too experienced for me to reasonably chalk this up to noobness.

Vote: Shadow Knight

[nicoliosgotpolio]

Shadow Knight wrote:
I gotta agree. Taking on the weakest players and lurkers is definitely a scum tactic. I know I've managed to get a few people lynched as scum, simply from hunting lurkers. For that reason, more than any other,

unvote, vote Hoopla


So, essentially what you are saying is that voting for the worst players and the noncontributors is scummy, even on the first day.

I must disagree. If you don't vote for the people who made the scummiest slips, who do you vote for? Those who made the second scummiest slips? The best players? Those who are most active?

You're way too experienced for me to reasonably chalk this up to noobness.

Vote: Shadow Knight

He didn't say don't vote for people who make scummy slips, so I think you twisted that a bit. Though I don't agree with what he's saying either. Taking on the weakest players and lurkers I think is a town tactic, because lurking is a scumtell.

[geraintm]

waiting for sensfen now, 3 replacements before end of day one this game cursed?

[PJ.]

Khelv he's only a goon meaning he has under 100 game post. It could have been 1 long game. He is reasonable noobish.

[Hoopla]

Khelv he's only a goon meaning he has under 100 game post. It could have been 1 long game. He is reasonable noobish.

I think he's probably someone's alt, or at least had game experience elsewhere.

[Shadow Knight]

I am an old player but haven't played in a year or two.

I am not saying that we shouldn't push lurkers to contribute, but more that we shouldn't just immediately vote them and fling an accusation at them. Personally, I like to ask questions of lurkers and at least give them a chance to speak before defending themselves. The reason I'm not a fan of attacking weaker players is a simple matter of probability. A weaker player has a higher probability of panicking when pressed whether they are town or not. Since most games start out with 60-70% of us being town, we're more likely to lynch a newbie as town than as scum.

I'm not asking you guys to agree with my logic, but its how I feel and how I play. In short, if you want a body count, go the Dirty Harry route of investigation; if you want to catch scum, go the Colombo route.

Again, in the context of my post, you should read "taking on" as "attempting to lynch". I have no issues whatsoever with trying to get them involved or asking them to explain themselves. Now, once they've been given enough rope, weaker players generally hang themselves if scum because they eventually slip. This tactic works for lurking scum as well because generally, there is a reason they are lurking, be it because they play scum badly or because the more they say now, the more likely they are to be caught in a lie later.

[PJ.]

I wonder why Khelv didn't call me out when I said I didn't agree with lynching weak players.

[Hoopla]

I am an old player but haven't played in a year or two.

I am not saying that we shouldn't push lurkers to contribute, but more that we shouldn't just immediately vote them and fling an accusation at them. Personally, I like to ask questions of lurkers and at least give them a chance to speak before defending themselves. The reason I'm not a fan of attacking weaker players is a simple matter of probability. A weaker player has a higher probability of panicking when pressed whether they are town or not. Since most games start out with 60-70% of us being town, we're more likely to lynch a newbie as town than as scum.

I'm not asking you guys to agree with my logic, but its how I feel and how I play. In short, if you want a body count, go the Dirty Harry route of investigation; if you want to catch scum, go the Colombo route.

Again, in the context of my post, you should read "taking on" as "attempting to lynch". I have no issues whatsoever with trying to get them involved or asking them to explain themselves. Now, once they've been given enough rope, weaker players generally hang themselves if scum because they eventually slip. This tactic works for lurking scum as well because generally, there is a reason they are lurking, be it because they play scum badly or because the more they say now, the more likely they are to be caught in a lie later.

That seems fair enough - I think this is just a difference in playstyle. My logic is this - who are you more likelier to catch as scum? A newbie, or a seasoned player? Of course, newer players are likelier to panic when pressured, and this should be taken into account. But like you say, they will slip up.

With such low information on D1, doesn't it make sense to target players who are likelier to give stronger clues to their alignment? Or at least target players that will be of less value later in the game?

--

SensFan (when you get in), what do you make of your predecessor's play so far?

[charter]

I wonder why Khelv didn't call me out when I said I didn't agree with lynching weak players.

Cause he is scum.

[charter]

I think Sens is recovering from drinking heavily a few days before, he's a lightweight schoolgirl bitch.