Mini 753 - Really Deep South (Game over!)

[charter]

vote EK

Wait for it.

[charter]

I am scum.

She's either scum or lying. Either way...

[charter]

I am scum.

She's either scum or lying. Either way...

All players that make jokes about being scum in their first three posts are scum.

I believe this with such conviction that I will park my vote on elvis until she's lynched.

vote: elvis

Not to mention she did it all wrong too. Elvis, you need big text, bold, and many many posts.

[charter]

elvis is a good wagon and I'd join if vollkan hadn't made an obvious scumreaction in his first post.

This is actually really true. I hadn't actually read the other random votes before laying the perfect trap.

unvote, vote vollkan

[charter]

Your OMGUS is showing.

[charter]

What is the scum reaction that Volkan made in his first post? I've read it over 3 times and I can't see it.

And is everyone voting for Volkan voting seriously?

Yeah, he is perceiving nothing as attacks. Comes from scum a LOT. My vote is definately serious.

@Elvis, I dunno, I don't really see it like that. He was what, the third or fourth vote? If he'd been the fifth or sixth I'd definately agree, but I don't see how what he did is really that scummy.

[charter]

I will throw my two cents in here. Seen way more fake miller claims than real ones.

I don't even know what this discussion is for. No one is arguing that ABR is scum because he claimed miller. You guys are letting vollkan off the hook. FOS those arguing this.

[charter]

Waiting for suspicion of him to blow over. Not gonna happen while sheriff charter is in town.

[charter]

@everyone: How predictable is the miller reaction around here? I see that pretty much everyone that responded refernced their own personal beliefs about miller claims. How easy is it for someone to predict the responses that a miller claim will bring?

I almost universally treat all claims that come when not under serious pressure as null and pretty much just ignore them. If that person has acted scummy enough to warrent a lynch, their claim doesn't get in the way. As for people's reactions, I think farside and DGB's are interesting. DGB says 80% of miller claims are scum, well that right there is a reason for her to go after ABR tooth and nail. 80% IS THE ODDS FROM THE LOINS OF JESUS! Farside made a lot of questioning and then went nowhere with it. I don't even see what she could have done with those questions. Quite suspicious of both of them.

Well, to state it now, "YES, I APPROVE OF THE WAGON ON ME"

Straight from the horses mouth, I think he needs another vote.

Bold mine. If they are not a viable strategy for scum why isn't it a town tell?

Good catch, make that two more votes.

[charter]

Where did charter try to silence anybody? I question a contradiction from DGB and useless questioning from farside. Even after I do this they still go on about it and I say nothing about it.

All I said about the claim was it's a null tell to me. If ABR acts scummy enough to get lynched, then we just won't have to wait for a claim.

DGB, why would you say 80% of miller claims are fake then not go after ABR? What percent are you shooting for day one?

Farside, what was the point of all your questioning about games with millers in them?

LOS
vollkan
DGB
Elvis/farside

[charter]

I asked ABR someone questions because he didn't claim on his first post and wanted to know more about why he claimed when he did and why he didn't claim in his first post.

unvote:
vote: volkan

... I asked why you were questioning about games with millers in them. It had nothing to do with the fact that ABR claimed miller. So, what was the point of all the questioning games with millers in them?

[charter]

Ok, that was about the only acceptable answer I could think up that you could give.

He keeps his cool? Please, he's barely posting. If you think he's being bussed, why would you care if he gets lynched? The only lynch acceptable day one is of town? Is of scum but only townies voting for scum? No lynch? I really don't see what you're getting at.

[charter]

Oh, another thing. How is you not acting on getting ABR lynched because no one will be convinced by you different than you saying Elvis is scum for claiming scum and nothing will change your mind, but you do vote for her?

[charter]

Oh, another thing. How is you not acting on getting ABR lynched because no one will be convinced by you different than you saying Elvis is scum for claiming scum and nothing will change your mind, but you do vote for her?

You are asking because you think these are two similar things? Erm, how?

Elvis- No one took her seriously, except you. You voted for her saying you wouldn't unvote until she was lynched.
ABR- Claimed miller, you say he's scum. You don't vote him.

Both times you seem quite sure the person is scum, both times you have reasons for doing so that won't convince anyone else, but you only vote for Elvis. You seem to let ABR off the hook, why?

[charter]

vote vollkan

[charter]

I don't understand why Korts unvoted vollkan. I think he had a high chance to be scum and then we'd know who all his buddies are because he was being "heavily bussed".

why is there a discussion going on about what would happen were someone to claim miller at lynch -1?

Good question. This is twice now farside and DGB have overrun the thread with pointlessness.

223- neko-ABR scumteam

unvote, vote ABR

just in case.

[charter]

Korts, I saw that he was hammered, but have you ever heard of voteless people or something like that? I even said "just in case".

I think DGB might be on to something about you.

[charter]

Korts, why just me and vollkan? Why not CarnCarn in your scum triangle? He voted ABR but wasnt in the votecount.

[charter]

Korts, why just me and vollkan? Why not CarnCarn in your scum triangle? He voted ABR but wasnt in the votecount.

Hmm. I don't really understand. Since it was stated in the first vote count that it was 7 to lynch, someone seems to be a double-voter.

CarnCarn would only have been the seventh vote, thus being the hammer-vote. Why would he be in my "scum triangle"?

Also, I'm not making a link between you and vollkan, I'm saying that both of your votes seemed strange--with vollkan's also being scummy.

Ok... Elvis died, bringing us down to 11 people left alive, so we only needed six to lynch. And, I love how you ask me why I can think there could be voteless people when you assume there are double voters..

I know you're not connecting me and vollkan, but I think you're pulling stuff out of nowhere. If ABR wasn't painfully obvious scum, you would have something, but everyone should have been willing to vote him.

[charter]

Ok, I was just trying to see if you were actually clueless or feigning it.

[charter]

Regarding which part?

Leaving CarnCarn's vote for ABR out of your people you thought were fishy for voting ABR.

[charter]

vote neko

Meant to do that earlier.

[charter]

Are we waiting for anything in particular? I don't understand why neko isn't lynched yet.

[charter]

Yeah I suppose, but I don't see how you can ignore his ties to ABR regardless of his claim.

[charter]

I call bs. No one would target ABR and he had no night action. So much BS. The only acceptable reason for targetting ABR was you didn't believe him to be miller and thought he would submit a scum kill. You said way too much more than that.

Anyone going to counter?

[charter]

Yes I read it. And I will say again, the ONLY reason for a jailkeeper to target a miller is if they believe them to be scum. You threw in like two other reasons, which are bs.

[charter]

Actually, I need to think about this. I've only ever seen a jailkeeper live past N1 in one game, and it turned out to win the game for town.

unvote

[charter]

At the point of your writing this, D2 had been going for just 2 days and Neko had yet to even post on D2, yet alone claim. I'm curious...why would it make sense for town to lynch in such a situation?

DGB answered this in 280, why must you ask after it has already been answered? Time is an important factor in this game. Giving a suspect more time gives him and his scumbuddies more time to come up with a more convincing fakeclaim than ABR's.

The other reasons are legitimate. Sure, suspicion of ABR is clearly the most important thing, but I don't see why you can so bluntly dismiss the rest of it as "bs".

Explain to me how the other reasons are legitimate.

[charter]

For starters, I was asking you and not DGB.

I gave a reason too. Prevent fakeclaiming fabrication.

But, I would argue, that said cost (which is actually fairly minor, given that scum can and do plan in advance and that it isn't exactly something which requires real-time days of contemplation) is more than offset by the cost of jumping into a lynch too quickly.

I argue that the increased credibility of a fakeclaim is worse than a quicklynch.

Makes perfect sense. Sure, it doesn't count for much at all, since scum is very very unlikely to target a claimed miller, but it's legit, if not very powerful.

Scum will never target a miller. Find me even one case where it has happened. No town protective role is wisely spent on a miller. There are virtually no roles worse than a miller. No other town power is well used on a miller.

The other points boil down to protecting a miller (absolutely the worst choice imaginable) or preventing a scummiller from making a kill (only valid reason). No role that should be included in games is worse than a miller (and even millers are iffy).

[charter]

My bad. But then jailkeeper is protecting the miller.

DGB, what do you make of neko's claimed ignorance? Of vollkan's pushing that neko's reasons are valid?

[charter]

DGB, what do you make of neko's claimed ignorance?

Ignorance of what, exactly?

K, so you think I'm much more likely to be making [my claim] up than to have made a mistake out of ignorance?

I better not say any suspicion against neko either, that would be a scum trick attempting to make myself look, whats the word... even scummier?!?!?

[charter]

It's totally farside+vollkan.

vote vollkan

[charter]

It's totally farside+vollkan.

vote vollkan

farside??? Why farside?

Don't think it will behoove town to answer this right this second.

[charter]

Good imagination, but it's purely meta. I don't think it's fruitful for me to argue that because farside is making sense, she probably isn't town, right now.

[charter]

Every game I've been in with farside where she's town she has been a loose cannon and made no sense whatsoever. This is quite the opposite of that, so that's why I think she's scum for meta reasons.

Farside also dropped her 'charter needs time to fakeclaim' bs pretty fast too.

[charter]

Also, DGB, it's not a scumtell. Maybe you're confusing it with 'not pretty angel's halo logic'.

[charter]

Last game I was so sure she was scum was maybe a month or two ago, town in that game though.

[charter]

I should have just said vollkan was scum and left it at that. THIS IS WHY ITS DUMB TO DISCUSS WHY I THINK FARSIDE IS SCUM RIGHT NOW. There's zero case to anyone else.

[charter]

Need more vollkan votes.

[charter]

Why vollkan?

So he can slip up under pressure and confirm his being scum.

[charter]

vollkan those aren't my quotes.

DGB, are you just voting so you can hear a claim from him? That's what it looks like to me.

[charter]

How did I jump above vollkan?

[charter]

Do we have a deadline in this game? (If so when)

[charter]

So it's official that vollkan is scum. Lets go people.

[charter]

Claim vollkan, better make it good.

[charter]

Don't think that's gonna cut it.

[charter]

vollkan, anything to say? Want to confess who your last partner is? Personally, I find scum confessing partners to be beneficial to town, but I want to be proven wrong.

[charter]

Cause vollkan is scum, and once he flips scum we lynch malthusis and win. No need to pressure CarnCarn.

[charter]

What?

[charter]

I wouldn't put any stock in my reputation. I bet my mafia career someone was scum in a just finished game and lost (still won the game, but I don't have a mafia career anymore).

But yeah, pretty sure vollkan is scum.

[charter]

That's fine, just letting someone else have all the glory for themselves.

[charter]

DGB, what do you make of farside's complete reversal on her stance on vollkan and now her searching for more roleclaims?

[charter]

It's possible looking at DGB's quote that it would explain the action of why rolf. A couple of issues I have at this moment. I feel 2 people are scum with a possible 3rd at this point

Korts/ tajo (very high)
charter
volkan

Volkan stated the following:

I'd forgotten all about Panama...until now :Evil:

On the other hand, I am firmly of the view that Millers should claim as early as possible (and this is early enough).

Easily believes without question the miller claim.
charter found the discussion unncecessary and Korts believed it as well. None of these 3 have hammered Neko at this point and none are voting for him.

DGB do you have anything to say about anything? I'm going to hold off on the hammer till DGB has her say.

These gave me the impression you found vollkan scummy.

Because I decided not to hammer? Well excuse me for noting agreeing with a case I haven't liked from the get go.

Umm, sorry, but what you said before definately implied you were willing to hammer. You're now trying to say you were waiting on DGB to hammer before, but now you're saying you didn't agree with a vollkan lynch then? Why didn't you say "I don't agree with a vollkan lynch" instead of "I'm going to hold off on the hammer"?

DGB, what do you make of farside's complete reversal on her stance on vollkan and now her searching for more roleclaims?

Any particular reason why you worry that lurkerscum CarnCarn is pressured?

Yes, because it lets vollkansuperduperscum live longer.

[charter]

Check his post history, it's not just this game he's lurking in, so yes, I am.

[charter]

DGB, what alignment do you think farside has now?

[charter]

DGB, what alignment do you think farside has now?

Please your manic Volkan is scum I'm betting scum bussing or mislynch. Either way I'm betting scum on you.
DGB actually knows better. I'm sure someone else reading knows as well better. What you got buddy?

unvote, vote farside

So regardless of vollkan's alignment, I am scum to you? You still vote vollkan though? You only vote vollkan again after I call you out on it, but you think I'm scum and the wagon on him is rubbish? Looks like this one is in the bag. (also add her inquisition about ABR's claim but didn't vote him over it)

[charter]

If it'll make you vote farside, sure.

[charter]

DGB, what alignment do you think farside has now?

Please your manic Volkan is scum I'm betting scum bussing or mislynch. Either way I'm betting scum on you.
DGB actually knows better. I'm sure someone else reading knows as well better. What you got buddy?

unvote, vote farside

So regardless of vollkan's alignment, I am scum to you? You still vote vollkan though? You only vote vollkan again after I call you out on it, but you think I'm scum and the wagon on him is rubbish? Looks like this one is in the bag. (also add her inquisition about ABR's claim but didn't vote him over it)

Haha I hit a nerve. Awesome!
I know you scum buss like no one else I've seen so give it up buddy I got stuff you don't know about.

Clearly you're lying, you don't have anything on me. I can prove it too.

[charter]

charter, are you CarnCarn's buddy?

You think it's Carn still. Last time I saw charter scum he bussed his scum buddy hard. I'm thinking the say thing. Wish I had a laser gun to test my theory on him with.

When was this? It would be idiotic of me to bus a partner here with one scum already dead.

[charter]

If it'll make you vote farside, sure.

Someone missed my vote as a hammer.

DGB who else do you find to be town in this game?

Yes I did miss that it was hammer.

Family guy and don't even. Should I post the link where you went after ZONE every day including the day where only 2 of you were left as scum?

Oh please, that wasn't a bus, that was distancing, and guess what it worked. Clearly I'm not trying anything close to that this game. If you mean the buddy I did bus day one, THEN HOW CAN YOU EXPLAIN NOT BUSSING ABR? Also, whoever it was in that game was obvscum and I can't believe it bought any town points for me.

[charter]

It's so much fun watching scum squirm.

Who shall we lynch? charter or CarnCarn?

I'm thinking charter he says he has proff he isn't scum. Funny he seems to miss all the things said in game from rolf and tajo. As well as me.

This is fun.

I'm betting someone already knows I'm not scum.

[charter]

No, anyone with a night action that targets can confirm me.

[charter]

Unless you're saying I can roleblock everyone all at once, then it doesn't matter who targets me, and I don't have to know that they do. I think it's fairly obvious that there's no such thing as a massroleblocker. Seriously, this is getting ridiculous.

[charter]

Fine, target me with your action two days in a row, I'm a commuter. I can commute every other day. Now, can I commute tomorrow or not? Any bets scum?

[charter]

Ugh? I just checked the wiki. It's half-time nightkill immunity. The only players that can confirm you are scum. And that's grossly inconsistent with your statement that any player targeting you would confirm you as town.

Shit, I thought it was all actions because that's what the commuter was last game I was in with one, but I just checked my role PM and it's just kills. So yeah, I guess it's not confirmable.

How does this make you 100% town?

Because one day you'd get no result, and the other you would, which would be a commuter, and I've never heard of a scummuter. But only kills will fail.

[charter]

Because one day you'd get no result, and the other you would, which would be a commuter, and I've never heard of a scummuter. But only kills will fail.

HILARIOUS.

IF you're telling the truth, and it's a big if, the only result is you being dead.

You've stopped making sense, scum, but thanks for the amusement.

That's fine.

[charter]

Answer me these questions three. Why am I scum? What will you do once I flip town? Why is farside town?

[charter]

I wasn't asking for stupid questions. I wanted to know answers to them. Stop dodging them with that crap.

[charter]

And the answer to the second one?

[charter]

Ooohhh, looks like a slip up to me.

[charter]

I am reading. You and DGB are so sure I'm scum, regardless of vollkan. I know this is wrong, so I'm trying to figure out if it's because you're just wrong, or you're scum. Setting up mislynches as you've done is scummy. Didn't realize I had to explain this out.

[charter]

You do that.

[charter]

vote no lynch

[charter]

Well, it's generally easier to get just three townies to agree on scum than it is four. I'd rather do LYLO instead of MYLO.

[charter]

Massclaim? Or no lynch and do it tomorrow? Or something else altogether? I've already claimed in my infinate wisdom.

[charter]

Good point.

[charter]

Ahh, that also means no lynch won't work.

unvote no lynch

[charter]

Well DGB is an idiot or scum. Way to throw the game away if you are town.

[charter]

Sure. Last game I was in with a commuter, all actions targetting them at night failed. I remembered I was a commuter in this game. So I thought that anyone could target me with anything, and it would fail, or if I hadn't commuted, it would work, and fail the next day when I did commute. Easily confirming me. What I failed to remember is that in this game, only kills fail when I commute. So I'm like a half bulletproof, not a terribly strong role and not one that any scum with half a brain would ever claim.

The only thing that changed was it went from all night actions to kills when I went back and dug up my role PM.

Your whole "case" against me is once again, A FUCKING LOGIC CASE THAT HAS NO PROOF AND DOESN'T MAKE ONE BIT OF GODDAMN SENSE.

[charter]

You know what, DGB doesn't even care to wait and see who gets killed, or hear what farside wants us to hear.

You know what else is funny, DGB didn't vote ABR for his miller claim even when she said 80% of miller claims are fake. I think DGB knew it was fake, so she made sure everyone knew it, but then didn't actually vote him cause ABR was her buddy. Thoughts?

[charter]

I think it's DGB and Carn with all this Carn distancing DGB has been doing lately.

[charter]

Tajo stated a lot of stuff, I haven't seen any of it pan out yet.

Also, what about Kison? Malthusis wasn't very good and he's said literally nothing. Time to go check post history. Ehhh, it's shaky, but not damning against him.

Farside, if you're just going to give up with saying "so and so played good if they're scum, they deserve to win" then how the hell do you ever plan on winning?

Why haven't we massclaimed yet? DGB can go first.

[charter]

My bad, I haven't been thinking.

[charter]

You need to finish reading instead of asking these questions. I see this as stalling from presenting your actual thoughts on the game.

[charter]

This is why we can't have nice things.

[charter]

Your whole "case" against me is once again, A FUCKING LOGIC CASE THAT HAS NO PROOF AND DOESN'T MAKE ONE BIT OF GODDAMN SENSE.

[charter]

An unfinished one.

[charter]

I am pretty sure it

is

finished. Considering you posted after its completion, I find it bizarre you're saying it isn't.

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=10062

Some things to note:

- Raging Rabbit was in the game
- The commuter role works as Charter explained
- The commuter was a serial killer

Ah, that one too then, I'd forgotten. I'm thinking of another one. Guess that just makes my argument that I forgot that much better, huh?

charter scum bussing any proof of this?

This game charter was GF. Day one he went after his scum partner and hard. Every day since it was the same.

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=9776

I can show you a TON of games where I didn't bus.

If any of you guys are town and trying to argue that I'm scum based on stuff not related to this game, I ask why? Why make your arguments about stuff in the past instead of stuff from this game?

[charter]

Skanders, you played a good game, but you've given yourself up too early. Who was your partner, though I'm sure they're about to reveal themselves?

In case either one of you is town, someone is about to be killed (you can be sure it won't be me or either of you) then any remaining scum will pile on me and win.

Skanders's case up there is full of gaping holes and quotes out of context.

The word actually a scumtell? That's a bigger reach than picking apples on the moon.
I didn't pursue ABR because he claimed miller, I treat unpressured claims as null tells and evaluate them on scumminess. DGB did the same thing as me, but does she get mention? Nooooo.
I set up a neko lynch the day before? Please, everyone thought neko was scummy, half the town said the same thing.
I already said I'd only seen a jailkeeper live past day one once, and it won the game for town. Looking back on it, neko should 100% not have been lynched because it's an easily confirmable role, but people voted anyway.
I've already explained why I thought I was confirmable, but then double checked and found out I wasn't. Kison even helped me show this.

[charter]

Stuff your fucking percentages up your ass.

[charter]

Sorry, that wasn't nice, but the point still holds true. This isn't a logic game.

[charter]

How much time we got left before this game is over?

[charter]

I can't wait to start the "Should NK immune town players claim vanilla?" MD thread after this game is over.

[charter]

I agree with that, but this was essentially LYLO.

[charter]

IT DOESN'T FUCKING MATTER. THIS GAME IS OVER. I HAVE TWO VOTES AND FARSIDE SAID SHE'LL VOTE ME. WE'RE JUST WAITING FOR RR TO COME BACK. DONT BOTHER WASTING YOUR TIME WITH THIS GAME ANYMORE.

Skandersscum played a good game.

[charter]

Ok, I will put one more ounce of effort into this game. Can anyone voting me/thinking of voting me please list the reasons. If they are all already things I've gone over (botched claim) or things that aren't scummy (being on vollkan's lynch, using the word actually, anything else in skanders' post) then no need to list them. Thank you.

[charter]

bumpy bomp bomp

Let's win this no-brainer.

YOU KNOW THAT EVEN IF IM SCUM LYNCHING ME WONT WIN YOU THE GAME? CONCLUSION. DGB AND SKANDERS ARE SCUM.

I'm just waiting for everyone to post and (hopefully) not throw the game away, before I make a case.

[charter]

Ok, I don't really know what else to try, so I will try pleaing. Please go back and check every game I've ever been in, I've never done it as scum (and even if I was scum in this game, this isn't even a losing situation) because I think you should win as scum without resorting to lying outside of game. If I'm scum (just checked my role PM so I don't botch again) I will never play with you guys again.

I understand that this probably seems like scum wizardry trying to get inside your head, but I promise it is not. I really don't know who actually is scum, but I have to guess at least skanders due to that clearly bs case he posted. If I had to name a number two, it would be DGB, but that's just because I'm not dead yet.

And also, think about it logically, if I was scum, I would be taking a townie down with me right now. It would be too easy to just continue acting scummy and fake distance to a townie. Once again, all this is WIFOM, but maybe my plea will not fall on deaf ears.

[charter]

And also, think about it logically, if I was scum, I would be taking a townie down with me right now. It would be too easy to just continue acting scummy and fake distance to a townie. Once again, all this is WIFOM, but maybe my plea will not fall on deaf ears.

Sounds exactly like what you are doing right now.

Who else am I taking down with me?

[charter]

Who else am I taking down with me?

Nobody, but you're trying.

Hilarious.

[charter]

Request REPLACEMENT/MODKILL on CarnCarn

He hasn't posted in two weeks, this is utterly ridiculous.

[charter]

Request REPLACEMENT/MODKILL on CarnCarn

He hasn't posted in two weeks, this is utterly ridiculous.

I just noticed the word 'modkill' in that request... Mmmmmm... that throws off my theory that charter is CarnCarn's buddy a bit... but charter is still scum no matter how you slice it.

Ok scum.

Welcome shaft.ed. If you're scum, just vote me and end the game.

[charter]

Also, where is Skander?

Discussing how him and DGB can still win now that they've outed themselves.

[charter]

DGB's case is " ".
Skander's case is because I used the word actually.

[charter]

@charter why ask for a modkill if we're in LyLo?

I am town, therefore anyone else dying results in a chance of winning. You could have been scum, in which case a modkill on Carn would have been great. If you were town, then it would suck, but we've been at the same spot in this game for like two weeks.

It's obvious that you are town.

If we're scum partners why would he want me modkilled?

True! Then Kison is charter's buddy.

Oh my god. You've been saying it's me and Carn for ages, now all of a sudden it's Kison? Did you forget how he tried to weaken my claim even more? Why wouldn't he just keep his mouth shut if he was my buddy?

First vollkan wagon:
vollkan (Korts(TOWN), neko(TOWN), malthusis/Kison, charter, roflcopter(TOWN), fariside (TOWN))

One of charter and malthusis/Kison is scum, at least.

You probably know which it is.

I'd like to point out this is scumlogic, which DGB is now using to her full advantage. There was never any reason behind the vollkan wagon, it was just a RVS wagon.

I'm ready to vote for either DGB or skanders since I know one of them has to be scum. Shaft.ed and Kison, any preference who I vote for?

[charter]

DGB and skanders cause they're voting for me and no one else has hammered.
If you want reasons that actually convince you, then I will go back and try and show they're scum. Up until you showed, I was just waiting in limbo to see if you were going to hammer or not.

[charter]

Do you want me to make a case against DGB and skanders? Same thing to you Kison. If neither of you does, I'll continue waiting.

I think you've also forgot that (to you and Kison) that I could possibly be scum with one of DGB or Skanders.

[charter]

Good job guys. Shame we mucked around so long that we lost.