Open 119 - Masons and Mafia (GAME OVER) before 747

[nicoliosgotpolio]

I don't like it either, not at all. Just because he pressured zwet doesn't mean he's scum. It means he thought zwet was scum.

Vote: Coolness

Vote Count #14

dejkha - 2 (Crazy, ThaCoolness)
ThaCoolness - 2 (dejkha, nicoliosgotpolio)

Not Voting: IH, Jazzmyn, MadCrawdad, rokovoj

5 to lynch and 3 to lynch at deadline.
Deadline is March 19.

[MadCrawdad]

First of all, this is getting off topic.

Second of all, I'M NOT A FUCKING /B/TARD,

Back to discussion now; Dek, you were pressuring zwet the end of day 1. I'm listening to zwet and voting for him.

Cool, if you're referring to me asking where else you play mafia being 'off topic,' I really don't think it is. I'm just trying to get a better feel for your experience level. You've made some REALLY questionable moves this game, and I'm trying to figure if you're just new, or scum...or both.

------------

I don't like it either, not at all. Just because he pressured zwet doesn't mean he's scum. It means he thought zwet was scum.

Vote: Coolness

For thinking zwet scum, he didn't find him scummy enough to hammer.

Nicolio, you FOSed zwet a couple of times but expressed hesitation when it came to hammering.

Here you mention that you don't hammer 'until everyone else can't, or wants you to.' Is that an overall policy of yours, or only specific to the case of zwet?

FoS : Zwet

, only because I don't hammer until everyone else can't, or wants me to.

----------

Looking forward to hearing more from IH, Jazz & Rok.

[Crazy]

Umm, guys, considering Zwet's role, don't you think we should mainly be looking at people that Zwet mentioned in his goodbye post?

[dejkha]

Umm, guys, considering Zwet's role, don't you think we should mainly be looking at people that Zwet mentioned in his goodbye post?

Only if there are reasons to do so. Doesn't matter if he was a mason, that doesn't mean he knows who scum is. If he brought up any good cases against the people he mentioned, then that would be one thing, but otherwise nobody is any more likely to be scum just because he ordered us you to go after.

[dejkha]

EBWOP: it should be "just because he ordered us who to go after."

[Crazy]

Pool A = Crazy, nic, ThaCoolness
Pool B = Jazz, MCD
Pool C = dej
Pool D = rokovoj, IH

Pool A = People not on zwet wagon that zwet didn't mention in his post.
Pool B = People on zwet wagon that zwet did mention in his post.
Pool C = People not on zwet wagon that zwet did mention in his post.
Pool D = People on zwet wagon that zwet didn't mention in his post.

And we are looking in Pool A

first

?

[dejkha]

I'm not looking in any pool. I'm looking at who's being scummy. Particularly, Coolness.

[Crazy]

I'm not looking in any pool. I'm looking at who's being scummy. Particularly, Coolness.

Yes, but he's in Pool A, and I think we should avoid looking at people in Pool A until later, for obvious reasons.

[dejkha]

No, I'm fine with pressuring who is being scummy regardless of what pool they're in. The only thing I would guess at why you're saying what you're saying is that the people in pool A are most likely to be Masons, but only two of the three. So I'm not going to "avoid" looking at certain people because of their connection (or lack thereof) to Zwet. That shouldn't be a problem either since I'm not paying any less attention to anyone else. They all get the same treatment.

[Crazy]

Dej, this is obvious:

If we pressure someone from Group A, either:

A) They are a mason... which means they're either be lynched (like zwet) or their partner will need to claim to stop them from being lynched.
B) They are a townie or a scum, in which case the masons will be killed immediately following their lynch.

There is at least one scum that's not in Group A, and it's a much safer bet to look for that person before looking in Group A.

[Jazzmyn]

As it stands right now, we have 4 townies, 2 masons and 2 scum. So it seems to me that the odds, therefore, favour those of us in the town/mason group. So it may be wisest to not lynch at all today, thereby forcing the remaining scum to try to hit masons without giving the scum more information to go on, while simultaneously avoiding a mislynch, thereby keeping the pool of good guys as large as possible.

If anyone is bound and determined to lynch, then remember that if we don't hit one of the scum, the second best alternative is to hit a mason, because scum targeting townies with their daykills results in the death of the scum, not the death of a townie, while scum targeting a mason results in the death of a mason. The only way to kill townies is to lynch them. So, we should be very careful if we are going to lynch anyone when we have a 6/2 majority here, because lynching a townie only helps the scum.

By the way, it is silly to suggest that we should be looking to lynch those who zwet mentioned in his suicide post, for several reasons. 1) zwet is obviously not a very good player (self hammering as a mason: there's a good example of a bad player); 2) zwet's play was very scummy, so nobody can blame anyone for thinking he was scum; 3) it is an egregious logical fallacy to think that someone who flips town must, therefore, be correct about his accusations, especially when he posts nothing at all in support of his accusations. There is a number 4 but posting it would only help the scum so I will leave it at that.

Regards,
Jazz

[dejkha]

Dej, this is obvious:

If we pressure someone from Group A, either:

A) They are a mason... which means they're either be lynched (like zwet) or their partner will need to claim to stop them from being lynched.
B) They are a townie or a scum, in which case the masons will be killed immediately following their lynch.

There is at least one scum that's not in Group A, and it's a much safer bet to look for that person before looking in Group A.

A) If their partner were smart, they would most definitely not claim. Whats the point of telling everyone "Wait! I'm a mason and so is he/she!" That would be an extremely foolish move.
B) That's all assuming the two masons are in group A rather than the two scum (which you seem awfully sure about). It wouldn't be totally surprising if a mason voted for Zwet and was on his wagon at the time of his lynch. It would be a nice way of throwing scum off of who one of the masons might be. And unvoting might've caused problems for the mason if that were the case.

Sorry, but Zwet being a mason has no influence on who I do and dont suspect as there are many ways around who may or may not be the other masons. As Jazz said, he wasn't a particularly good/smart player. I dont think I've seen Coolness do anything that wasn't scummy to this point (or at least nothing pro-town), so I see no reason as to not vote him when he's acting like this.

[Crazy]

Hi Jazz, do you still think Dej is scum, or is it no longer advantageous to bus now?

[Jazzmyn]

Hi Jazz, do you still think Dej is scum, or is it no longer advantageous to bus now?

Please see my post 360 and stop acting like a jackass, unless you're scum, in which case, keep it up.

Regards,
Jazz

[Crazy]

Hi Jazz, do you still think Dej is scum, or is it no longer advantageous to bus now?

Please see my post 360 and stop acting like a jackass, unless you're scum, in which case, keep it up.

Regards,
Jazz

No lynching is not an option. That's just offering the scum a draw, which if the town is in a better position, they would likely take.

If you don't want to lynch dej because you don't think he's a mason, that's stupid. We still need to find the scum. If anything, it's more profitable to

avoid

the group of masons rather than look for them (since IMO, it's plainly obvious that it's among me/nic/Coolness, so the scum would be stupid to think about killing anybody else)

And yes, just because zwet said to lynch dej in his post doesn't make dej scum. It doesn't make him town either, though, and dej was your #2 suspect after zwet, yes?

[Jazzmyn]

No lynching is not an option. That's just offering the scum a draw, which if the town is in a better position, they would likely take.

WTF? How on earth did you come to that conclusion? We have 6 pro-town players and 2 scum.

The town wins when all scum are dead. The masons win when all scum are dead. Thus, we are 6 to 2 at the moment. The fact that you are trying your darnedest to get townies and masons to play stupidly and trying to convince us to risk the mislynch of a townie or a mason when it is not at all necessary or desirable makes you look pretty bad, Crazy.

It's like this: forcing the 2 remaining scum to have to choose their targets among 6 town players greatly benefits the town because the odds are in our favour that the scum will miss hitting a mason (there are only 2 left) and if they miss, they die.

That is precisely why they have not even tried to kill any of us yet this day, because they can't risk it. The scum want us to mislynch someone to narrow the field. The fact that you are trying to convince townies and masons to go for a mislynch over the most optimal strategy makes you highly suspicious, Crazy.

Regards,
Jazz

[Crazy]

But what if the scum would prefer a draw rather than try to kill?

The town

is

in a good position; I really don't think we should be trying to offer a draw right now.

[nicoliosgotpolio]

Here you mention that you don't hammer 'until everyone else can't, or wants you to.' Is that an overall policy of yours, or only specific to the case of zwet?

Policy.

[Jazzmyn]

No lynching is not an option. That's just offering the scum a draw, which if the town is in a better position, they would likely take.

How is pointing out that the scum are at a grave disadvantage offering them a draw? You're looking scummier with every post, Crazy.

If the scum are too weak-willed and too lily-livered to aim for their win condition, that's their problem. There is no reason whatsoever to help them along, as you seem to be suggesting/doing. Personally, I would rather force their hand and watch them die. See my post #365.

Regards,
Jazz

[Jazzmyn]

It's 6-2 at present in favour of the town. I say forcing the remaining scum to act is the best move for town, and town should keep mum about targets. This forces scum to choose a target, and town will gain much information as a result. The town gains nothing of value from Crazy's suggestion to lynch someone who he purports to find scummy, and the town gains all manner of value from my suggestion to refrain from doing so.

Regards,
Jazz

[Crazy]

Okay, Jazz, let's try that.

Attention scum! You are now forced to kill somebody! So go ahead!

And now let's see if that makes the scum actually do anything.

And then you can get a scummie for your awesome setup-breakingness.

[rokovoj]

Keep in mind that I'm just responding to stuff as I go along, so I may have unknowingly repeated what someone else said later.

You don't remember last game do you? Remember when we (Meaning Hohum and me, MAFIA) "pressure" voted townies? Oh right...
I don't like your pressure vote at all, especially since its 1 vote and no one is following.
FoS : Zwet, only because I don't hammer until everyone else can't, or wants me to.

What exactly are you trying to say here? That pressure voting is scummy? It seems like a pretty weak reason to fos.

This argument over the word "hohum" is pretty irritating as it seems to have consumed the thread and I don't think it's getting us anywhere. I also don't think Crazy's "sorry for not posting" thing and the questions over his post frequency as mafia or town is productive.

I've noticed that nicoliosgotpolio doesn't seem to have strong opinions on anything and seems pretty hesitant to put out a vote. I don't like this behavior at all.

1. As rok is still on zwet, after Sir's death, what about rok makes you really think that they're town?

Are you saying that since zwets was all over Sironigous, who turned out to be scum, we can automatically say that zwets is not scum? We know now that this was the case, but we have to remember that just because you're on the same side as someone, that doesn't prevent you from building cases on them or even voting for them.

ThaCoolness, is there any reason why your unvote on dejkha is uh.. kinda distant from your reasoning? It seems odd to me that you didn't type responses to questions posed to you until dejkha asked you to.

I have looked at the post Crawdad posted. I think that he's town because of hohum dying right after rolling a die landing on him. He used WIFOM and went wrong. Rok's response after I said that seemed a bit angry, so I think that Rok is a townie.

There is no indication that hohum voting for me and then dying is a sign that I am townie. He might have tried to kill me. He might not have tried to kill me. It's not like he purposely chose to vote for me since he simply voted for whomever the dice roll happened to choose. I was angry because if you think that someone is townie (as in pro-town, but not a mason), you should

keep it to yourself

. (And while ThaCoolness did not explicitly specify pro-town non-mason, it was heavily implied that that is what he meant.) We need to do our best to prevent scum from figuring out who is a mason and who is a townie, and saying that you think someone is town is detrimental to every pro-town member.

Serious self voting as town makes me rage a bit. More than a bit.

Speaking of fools...

You voted to lynch yourself, so don't clutter the thread with anymore uselessness.

Why are you trying to prevent him from speaking? Too lazy to check the rules, but I'm pretty sure he's allowed to talk until the mod has posted his death, so this post looks fishy to me.

But I'm very sorry. I've been reading the past couple pages... and I'm not sure where to make my input as requested. So, would someone please ask me some questions, I'll answer, and attempt to keep up in the future.

Surely you must have some thoughts as you reading the thread. As long as voicing those out loud won't help the scum, then feel free to post them in the thread. I would say avoid answering questions directly asked to other people, but there are plenty of things in the thread that aren't just questions to other people. I don't like people who just hang around and answer things directed at them.

ok, that didn't look good for dej,

Vote: dej

This post looks somewhat opportunistic to me, as just because zwets asked us to kill dejkha isn't a good reason for a vote. At least Crazy had already been voting for dejkha at the end of day 1, so I see that as just putting his vote back after the change in days removed all the votes.

Okay, basically nicolios's 345, which is finally something I like from her. I wonder why the accompanying vote on ThaCoolness didn't come until 350, though.

Umm, guys, considering Zwet's role, don't you think we should mainly be looking at people that Zwet mentioned in his goodbye post?

I don't know why you're putting so much faith in zwets goodbye post. It seems weird to me as I've mostly agreed with you so far and it would be better to direct people towards dejkha using your pre-existing case on dejkha, which is stronger than zwets's suspicions. Ignoring who is actually in those "pools," do you consider a player mentioned by zwets to be more scummy if they were voting for him or if they weren't voting for him? In other words, which of the pools do you think we should be examining, based on the definition and not on which players in particular are in the pools?

A) They are a mason... which means they're either be lynched (like zwet) or their partner will need to claim to stop them from being lynched.

...whaaat? If someone's mason partner is about to be lynched you SHOULD NOT be claiming to stop their lynch. It's better to have one mason lynched then to have

two

masons killed by scum.

So it seems to me that the odds, therefore, favour those of us in the town/mason group. So it may be wisest to not lynch at all today, thereby forcing the remaining scum to try to hit masons without giving the scum more information to go on, while simultaneously avoiding a mislynch, thereby keeping the pool of good guys as large as possible.

Us talking = more information for scum. I understand why no lynch would look attractive, but I don't think it's the best thing for us to do. Since we do have a good number lead over scum at the moment, we can afford to mislynch.. 3 times before we're in lylo and there's a good chance that we'll catch at least one of the scum in those lynches. I think that

quick

lynching may actually be to our advantage, too, since less talking prevents the scum from figuring out who the masons are.

Hi Jazz, do you still think Dej is scum, or is it no longer advantageous to bus now?

Did you post somewhere before that you suspected Jazz to be scum? Could you point me towards it if you did?

It's like this: forcing the 2 remaining scum to have to choose their targets among 6 town players greatly benefits the town because the odds are in our favour that the scum will miss hitting a mason (there are only 2 left) and if they miss, they die.

How do you propose that we "force" the scum to kill? The scum are not obligated to kill just as we are not obligated to lynch.

If the scum are too weak-willed and too lily-livered to aim for their win condition, that's their problem.

Its hypocritical to call the scum lily-livered. I see no-lynching and waiting around for scum to kill themselves as a cowardly move. We can afford to mislynch and we shouldn't avoid lynching just because we don't want to hit a pro-town player.

Jeez this hiding the masons thing can be so stifling. This post was twice as long before I cut stuff I thought was too revealing. I really have not liked nicolios's posting so far. Has anyone played a game with here where she was town and can confirm that this is normal behavior for her? I'm running low on time for today, but I'll check later if no one has. I need a bit more time to decide on where my vote is going, but probably either nicolios or dejkha (and maybe Jazzmyn as a third).

[dejkha]

I've noticed that nicoliosgotpolio doesn't seem to have strong opinions on anything and seems pretty hesitant to put out a vote. I don't like this behavior at all.

I think she was only hesitant to vote Zwet because it would've been a hammer and didn't want to unless everyone was ok with it, which seems understandable to me.

Why are you trying to prevent him from speaking? Too lazy to check the rules, but I'm pretty sure he's allowed to talk until the mod has posted his death, so this post looks fishy to me.

I wasn't trying to prevent him from speaking, that's why I limited it to "uselessness". Like how he was repeatedly making useless posts like "foolish scum" and "nervous scum" without making any real cases, before or after he self voted.

I can see where Jazz is coming from on the issue on not lynching. Town is out numbering scum 6-2, but I'd also like to remind Roko (since it looks like you didn't know) and everyone else that forgot/ didn't know, according to the Role PMs on the front page, scum has a different winning condition than town does. Scum wins once 50% of all living players are mafia, so two more town deaths without a scum kill and town loses.

So right now, not lynching isn't a terribly bad idea, but if we do lynch, then we have to be pretty certain it's scum and if it turns out not to be, then that's the time to seriously consider the option of not lynching. Granted, if we dont lynch, then the game has the potential to go on forever unless the Mod forces us to. But it's not a bad idea to wait and, in a way, force scum to attempt to day kill.

[Crazy]

I don't know why you're putting so much faith in zwets goodbye post. It seems weird to me as I've mostly agreed with you so far and it would be better to direct people towards dejkha using your pre-existing case on dejkha, which is stronger than zwets's suspicions. Ignoring who is actually in those "pools," do you consider a player mentioned by zwets to be more scummy if they were voting for him or if they weren't voting for him? In other words, which of the pools do you think we should be examining, based on the definition and not on which players in particular are in the pools?

It's not that the people zwet mentioned are scummier; it's that the people not on his wagon are likely masons. Do you really think zwet would have self-hammered if he had mason-buddies on his wagon? It doesn't make sense that he would. Dej wasn't on his wagon, but seeing as zwet was calling for his immediate lynch, I'm almost positive that dej isn't a mason. That leaves me/nic/ThaCoolness as likely masons... which is why I think we should avoid looking at that group for a while.

The only people that zwet didn't mention in his post that weren't on his wagon were you and IH, and I doubt either of you will be lynched soon, either.

So, yeah, I think we should look at the people zwet mentioned in his post. Not because he's an expert scum-hunter, but to avoid the masons.

Jazz may claim that a mason lynch is better than a town lynch, but that's not true in this situation, when I seriously doubt the scum will ever consider killing someone that's not me/nic/Coolness.

...whaaat? If someone's mason partner is about to be lynched you SHOULD NOT be claiming to stop their lynch. It's better to have one mason lynched then to have two masons killed by scum.

Right. I was just saying that's the only way a mason could not be lynched. And a mason being lynched is not a good option either. Which is why I think we should stray away from the probable masons for now.

[Jazzmyn]

It is, of course, possible that the remaining scum are simply abject cowards, in which case I guess they could just do nothing and show themselves up as the cowards they are. That is not how I would play it if I was them, but yeah, I can see how cowards might play it that way.

Sad to be them, if that's the case.

Regards,
Jazz