fishy wrote:
DDD instead gave a joking reply- to me this seems just as valid.
I guess its agree to disagree time for that issue.
I see his response in a different light than you. Maybe if it were marked with the ** blatant sarcasm** tag or something, then I could have passed it off merely as a joke. I guess it looks like he is just trying real hard to paint himself as being a town player when most of his actions to that point have indicated otherwise. That is how I see it.
Don’t have enough time to post a lot, but I wanted to post a few things (if nothing else to keep Nuwen happy ). Bigger post probably coming this weekend.
Amished seems to be playing very safe. He’s posting a lot and commenting on other people’s posts, but he doesn’t seem to be forming a case or pressing anyone for answers.
DDD’s explanation of his vote for ZEEnon feels like he’s hedging his bets. In some places he calls ZEE crazy suspicious, but in other posts he undercuts his own argument by saying ZEE’s play is usually a town-tell (speaking of which, is there such a thing as town-tells?). He’s also built an argument about why lynching ZEE could be good even if he is a townie, which I feel is anticipating ZEE turning town. Also, posts 125 and 133, where he asks people to chime in on Freeko’s post, feel like he’s trying to start a bandwagon without being the first vote on it.
I have to agree with na85 that Light-kun’s post was picking a troll. You can argue that na85 is active lurking by just agreeing with other people, but Light-kun’s post was just picking a fight without reason.
Freeko is absolutely making a mountain out of a molehill. I’m not sure if that’s suspicious or not though.
Mizz, if you’re short on time, you should try skimming the posts during your busy days and do more thorough readings when you’ve got more free time. When you skim, take note of what seems suspicious, and why, and then you can make a quick post about it. When you do the more thorough readings, try to think through what everyone is saying, see if it’s logical, if it’s consistent with what they’ve said previously, and if it’s something you think a townie would say. If everything works right, you find somebody who’s lying out of his ass and vote for him (just like politics!). As for people being mean, you gotta remember this game is basically where we pretend to gang up and kill each other. Tensions are going to rise and feelings will be hurt (especially for the people who turn out to be mafia).
Freeko, it appeared to be a running joke back and forth. Obviously none of the reasons were/are serious, so I think what DtF is getting to, and what I'm also wondering is why are you taking it so seriously? The jokes didn't even involve you personally, and from where I stand, they both handled it rather well in their own style. Are you just trying to build a spurious case against DDD, or what is your motivation here?
DDD: Personally I'm not a fan of listing other people's options like that (with regards to you talking about freeko pushing a case on you. There are always more options than anyone lists, so just giving something that's not complete, and obviously biased to your point of view is neither helpful nor townie, in my eyes. Wait and let them hang themselves with their response if it's that bad natured, and make your case then. This way we're arguing over other points too, without his input, while also giving him ideas as to how to answer/not answer.
I'm going on a crusade to put more thought into my posts.
As to JereIC, the style and tempo of the game typically affect my play a lot. With a lot of back and forth like we have here, from multiple people, I play a bit slower and try to look at all people involved, to see if there's something different about a certain way that they post. Up to now, with this many people, there's not a whole lot that I can really make a decent case for, and other people are asking similar questions to what I'd ask, and I think it's redundant to ask them again, trying to look like I'm building cases.
Also, it takes me a bit of time to get used to styles, as I tend to look for scum partly with feel, so I know who to really start putting a case together for. This can lead to slow day 1's for sure, but later on hopefully I can be more helpful looking for teh baddeez.
I'm going on a crusade to put more thought into my posts.
Amished wrote:DDD: Personally I'm not a fan of listing other people's options like that (with regards to you talking about freeko pushing a case on you. There are always more options than anyone lists, so just giving something that's not complete, and obviously biased to your point of view is neither helpful nor townie, in my eyes. Wait and let them hang themselves with their response if it's that bad natured, and make your case then. This way we're arguing over other points too, without his input, while also giving him ideas as to how to answer/not answer.
Theory disagreement then. Of course my options are biased to my viewpoint, those are the options I see. I think it's a positive that I open it up for discussion though. I don't want to become entrenched in any one mindset, I want to explore what other options people see and yes, I even want to give freeko a chance to defend himself and prove me wrong. All in all I'm not interested in building a case, I'm interested in the truth.
@ Amished: it was doing nothing to forward the game and simply out, it is better for everyone to have taht whole episode put to bed asap. It distracts the town from actually doing our jobs in finding scum. My initial involvement in the whole thing was to do 2 thigns. Show how a WIFOM defense goes nowhere to mizzmafia by pointing out the "slip" and showing its circular logic. That really should have been the end of it, and DtF did a good job of further explaining why its completely worthless to make the speculation. It served its purpose as an example, and that was its only purpose.
The second was to cut the crap between Dtf and DDD. I think the initial joke should have been igmored personally, so to make a great gigantic episode out of it seems foolish tot he other extreme. Its nothing more than a pointless distraction at best.
The long and short of it is that I think DDD is most likely scum. If he isnt, then he isnt acting very pro-town. He has done almost nothing to forwward any town oriented goal so far. His relevance in the glame is that he was screwing around with DtF and buddied up to me rather quickly with no reason given to do so. After the buddying, it was a nice exercise in circular logic to make his play look like he were a townie 0and terrible player). If that somehow wasnt a joke then its the worst WIFOM I have ever seen playing this game so far. Simply put I am not buying this piss and bull story from him. I guess I am just not much of a comedian.
Debonair Danny DiPietro wrote:In everyone's opinion is it reasonable (excluding a ZEEnon level meltdown) that you can be unhappy with someone's play twelve hours into the serious part of the game? I contend it is not reasonable at all.
Furthermore, the very act of claiming to be unhappy with my entire play (all one post in twelve hours of serious play) and suspicious of it suggests he knows that the single data point of the post where I agreed with him is not significant on it's own.
So there's one of two options that I see, 1) he's being honest, but entirely unreasonable in his opinions or 2) he's being dishonest and simply pushing for a town lynch. Either way his actions are anti-town. My vote stays on ZEEnon till he shows up again so I can get a better read, but freeko heads up the rest of the top of my current scum list.
So let me get this straight. Freeko thinks your play is bad, so that makes him scummy?
Sorry bud, I have to disagree on this one and while I don't think freeko has been acting particularly pro-town, I do think you're making a big deal out of nothing (much like you did earlier when you hopped on the ZEEnon bandwagon "crazy suspicious" etc.)
I also like the subtle implication that lynching you would be a town lynch.
Debonair Danny DiPietro wrote:Both Drake and Fishy realize the circular logic was a joke initially. Nuwen and Amished both took a look at the post and while they questioned it initially they both appear to realize that it was an ultimately useless joke post and I have apologized for not making that clearer.
I don't think it was a joke. I think you meant it as a serious defense and then when somebody poked a hole in it you played it off as "oh ha ha just kidding lol"
JereIC wrote:Mizz, if you’re short on time, you should try skimming the posts during your busy days and do more thorough readings when you’ve got more free time. When you skim, take note of what seems suspicious, and why, and then you can make a quick post about it. When you do the more thorough readings, try to think through what everyone is saying, see if it’s logical, if it’s consistent with what they’ve said previously, and if it’s something you think a townie would say. If everything works right, you find somebody who’s lying out of his ass and vote for him (just like politics!). As for people being mean, you gotta remember this game is basically where we pretend to gang up and kill each other. Tensions are going to rise and feelings will be hurt (especially for the people who turn out to be mafia).
Fishyfishfishfishsticksfishfishfish wrote:Mizz.Mafia, you should try to play an active role in the game, which includes reading all the posts and forming opinions on the other players. Anything less is bad for the town.
Mizz Mafia reminds me a lot of a girl I used to play poker with. She played the "tee hee I'm a girl" card a lot. You know, always asking the value of the chips and if it's her turn to bet, and what does check mean again? Laughing and giggling a lot, acting hurt when someone bets too much for her to call. You've know the drill.
Mizz posts a lot of friendly banter but most of it is play that reminds me of my friend. How do you use the quote function, what does spurious mean, etc. I get the feeling she's doing this on purpose, and not because she genuinely doesn't know. The play so far with Mizz seems to be feign innocence, and then when anyone says something that could shed a negative light on her she says something like "you're mean" which is an obvious appeal to emotion.
DDD wrote:Shouldn't he be more concerned about truth than how he appears to the rest of us?
Yes, ideally we'd all be more concerned with the truth. Unfortunately, only 2-4 of us know the full truth at the moment, so we'll have to go with how it appears for now
DDD wrote:It may not be a scum-tell, but it seems like anti-town behavior to me and it sure as hell is suspicious.
I mean it's obviously noteworthy. In the sense that all behavior in a game of Mafia is noteworthy. Whether or not it's suspicious has a lot to do with something we don't know right now.
na85 wrote:I don't think it was a joke. I think you meant it as a serious defense and then when somebody poked a hole in it you played it off as "oh ha ha just kidding lol"
I think the furthest I'm willing to go is that he was hoping I might focus more on discussing his "proof" than continuing to apply pressure. Which, having said that, makes it sound just about as damning.
But he was clearly not deadly serious about the fact that all terrible play is town play, and he was clearly not deadly serious about the fact that anyone voting for a terrible (town) player was suspicious, because
I'm going to ignore freeko's post because he's repeating the same old tired lines that I've already refuted and he hasn't even bothered to deal with those refutations.
na85 wrote:
Debonair Danny DiPietro wrote:In everyone's opinion is it reasonable (excluding a ZEEnon level meltdown) that you can be unhappy with someone's play twelve hours into the serious part of the game? I contend it is not reasonable at all.
Furthermore, the very act of claiming to be unhappy with my entire play (all one post in twelve hours of serious play) and suspicious of it suggests he knows that the single data point of the post where I agreed with him is not significant on it's own.
So there's one of two options that I see, 1) he's being honest, but entirely unreasonable in his opinions or 2) he's being dishonest and simply pushing for a town lynch. Either way his actions are anti-town. My vote stays on ZEEnon till he shows up again so I can get a better read, but freeko heads up the rest of the top of my current scum list.
So let me get this straight. Freeko thinks your play is bad, so that makes him scummy?
No, when I'm unhappy with someone's play they're either lurking way too much or have quit on a game or they're behaving in a blatently anti-town fashion. I'm never unhappy when people post content even if they're wrong about the content, so freeko's post seems like a stretch to me.
Sorry bud, I have to disagree on this one and while I don't think freeko has been acting particularly pro-town, I do think you're making a big deal out of nothing (much like you did earlier when you hopped on the ZEEnon bandwagon "crazy suspicious" etc.)
Perhaps in the quoted dialogue I'm focused too much on his word choice of the phrase "unhappy" because that expression doesn't make much sense to me in the context I would use it. More so, it was an attempt to get people to go back and look at my play and see if it warranted the tunnelvision freeko has acquired for it because I felt freeko's reaction was extreme.
I also like the subtle implication that lynching you would be a town lynch.
Debonair Danny DiPietro wrote:No, when I'm unhappy with someone's play they're either lurking way too much or have quit on a game or they're behaving in a blatently anti-town fashion. I'm never unhappy when people post content even if they're wrong about the content, so freeko's post seems like a stretch to me.
How is that different than what I said?
He's unhappy with your play, so you think it's a stretch and therefore he's scummy.
I'm asking you if that's the case (although I think you just confirmed it)
Debonair Danny DiPietro wrote:No, when I'm unhappy with someone's play they're either lurking way too much or have quit on a game or they're behaving in a blatently anti-town fashion. I'm never unhappy when people post content even if they're wrong about the content, so freeko's post seems like a stretch to me.
How is that different than what I said?
He's unhappy with your play, so you think it's a stretch and therefore he's scummy.
I'm asking you if that's the case (although I think you just confirmed it)
Circles, it feels like we're going around in them.
1) He claimed to be unhappy with the entirety of my play at that point.
2) The entirety of my play at that point was one serious post.
3) I find this to be an unreasonable position for freeko to hold.
4) Hence in my view he was being either unreaonable about #2 or dishonest about #1, which are both anti-town actions.
5) Coupled with later actions and posts I believe freeko the second most likely of anyone to be scum behind ZEEnon.
1 and 2 are facts, if 3 is true then 4 logically follows and I'm willing to extend to 5. If 3 is false then 4 is false and errodes some support for 5.
I believe 3 to be true, I believe that if someone were to look back at the first pages of the game and look at my serious post they could agree or disagree with the post, but they wouldn't have reasonable, rational grounds to be unhappy with my play up to that point.
EBWOP: 1 and 2 are facts, if 3 is true then 4 logically follows and I'm willing to extend to 5. If 3 is false then 4 is not the binary option I present it as and errodes some support for 5.
DDD: Fair enough, seeing how you present and go through a case (giving people a chance to see your logic, and if there are any missteps or points we've missed) helps out greatly. Regarding your #2, the entirety of your play also included several .."wacky" posts as well, so I could definitely see how people that might have a hard time looking at things from an inside perspective or another angle could have a problem with it. Also, I meant case as building a case for the person being either town or scum. It tends to work both ways for me.
Freeko: I was actually curious to see how far they'd go with their joking as it typically has a relaxed attitude, giving the rest of us either some insight as to how they truly act, or at least a baseline for something that they're creating, and have that as a counter-point (potentially) to how they act later in the game. The rest of us could either comment on that, or have a side conversation (since there's ten of us not including those two, it'd be pretty easy) both of which could have furthered the game, and judging by how they're acting now and what I had guessed earlier, they probably would've joined in the rest of us and been serious about it. Personally, the ... interesting .... acronym that DDD posted of DtF's name gave me some insight, not sure if it'll help his case or hurt it down the road.
Na85: Besides the fact that you bring up a metaphor that might or might not be wholly accurate, have you regularly lost to the female that you play poker with? If you play enough poker, it generally becomes easy to read people like that, and with a game based on concealment, being able to read somebody is a good thing. Also, judging by the join date for Mizz., (9 days ago from today) I think it's fair to cut her a little slack, while also helping her to "learn to fish" as the proverb goes. While this place always seems to be ripe with new incomers, it's also quite nice to be able to keep people that come here, and not just scare them away.
Mizz: Like has been said above, you're generally in two-three groups, depending on the setup of the game. An informed Minority (scum), an uninformed majority (town) or perhaps a semi-informed minority (miller or the like). Generally no matter which group you're part of, you want to play similarly. Go through each post, see if there's something suspicious that that person has said, or if something they said doesn't line up with something they've said before, and see if you can find "scum". As townie, you're actually going to be looking for the scum, while as scum you generally want to try to build a fake but strong looking case on town to get them mislynched. As it appears that many of us are much more familiar with this game than you are, mistakes can and will be pointed out and won't be very forgiving.
If you're up for it, either now or after this game ends, I'd suggest heading back into the Queue and signing up for a newbie game, or try to replace in to one, as they're more helpful to people with questions, as many people aren't familiar with mafia there. This will allow you to learn together and find your own style, as well as hopefully some good times that you can associate with this site.
Amished wrote:Na85: Besides the fact that you bring up a metaphor that might or might not be wholly accurate, have you regularly lost to the female that you play poker with? If you play enough poker, it generally becomes easy to read people like that, and with a game based on concealment, being able to read somebody is a good thing. Also, judging by the join date for Mizz., (9 days ago from today) I think it's fair to cut her a little slack, while also helping her to "learn to fish" as the proverb goes. While this place always seems to be ripe with new incomers, it's also quite nice to be able to keep people that come here, and not just scare them away.
My friend Ashley is an excellent poker player. Sorry, I should have clarified that to help explain the metaphor.
/me sits stunned at pacman's request. Are you really asking them to not post everything that's on their mind just cause you don't feel like you can read for more than ~ 20 minutes? Even back when pacman was born there were books and stuff that people would read hours at a time, so not learning from when you (or your avatar) were a kid isn't an excuse.
Na85: Yea, that would've been more helpful. Still, with the join date it's fairly safe to assume that she's rather new to the game. Though it's duly noted that assuming about people's skill levels is quite dangerous. So Mizz, here's hoping you catch on quickly for this bunch, or at least not hold back quite so much if you know more than you let on.
I'm going on a crusade to put more thought into my posts.
DraketheFake wrote:To be fair, you saying "only scum benefit from voting during the random voting stage" is A. Ridiculous, and B. Not really that far logically from "townies shouldn't vote during the random voting stage" (because good townies shouldn't do things that only benefit scum, natch).
i admit, i did over-exaggerate in this part. but essentially random votes makes it easier for scum to hide their intentions.
DraketheFake wrote:Seems like a slip, because for all intents and purposes
I
was under the impression that the Mafia would also be penguins. You seem to imply knowledge that they aren't penguins, which would be unfortunate for you, but I think I may have started it by calling everybody "gentlepenguins" so I'll let it go for now.
why would penguins kill other penguins? are you implying that you are a traitor penguin? anyways, the description of the game does say predators, so i don't generally view penguins to be predators, but perhaps you do?
Mizz.Mafia wrote:wow.
this, among other posts of yours, have not added to discussion at all. please take the time to make more meaningful posts or else i may consider voting you. i feel this is a growing issue that cannot be overlooked.
also, i think that my irritation blinded my actions earlier. i apologize to all of you, i've had a bad week. you can meta me if you'd like, i apologized in all my games for not posting enough. anyways, continuing on . . .
FOS: pacman281292
for not posting any material relevant to the game so far. all of your posts have been 'jokes', or just observations. just like Mizz.Mafia, you are not really adding anything useful to discussion, and i see this as an attempt at keeping under the radar, so to speak.
Amished wrote:Personally, the ... interesting .... acronym that DDD posted of DtF's name gave me some insight, not sure if it'll help his case or hurt it down the road.
If this doesn't come out during the game you absolutely need to tell me what kind of read you got from this after the game is over. I simply have no idea how you guys get alleged reads off some of the things you do.
JereIC wrote:
I have to agree with na85 that Light-kun’s post was picking a troll. You can argue that na85 is active lurking by just agreeing with other people, but Light-kun’s post was just picking a fight without reason.
Did you even read my post? The cow thing was approximately 1/8th of my post's point and was generally tongue in cheek. (Granted, I assumed cow could handle it better, but I don't really care as it is all very unimportant and beside the point.)
I would like it noted that while Cow acted within reason, everything else in the post was actually game related and ignored:
Big, fat, meaningless FoS Danny and ZEEnon.
Thus far, I have seen several different arguments and am ready so:
0=Town, 100=mafia
DraketheFake - 29%
Fishythefish - 38%
JereIC - 32%
Light-kun - 100% (This is joke, as I am "Obvious Kira")
pacman281292 - 37% (Mostly due to the WTF-O-Meter
ZEEnon - 41%
Mizz.Mafia - --
na85 - 30%
Amished - 38%
Debonair Danny DiPietro - 40%
freeko - 31%
Nuwen - 27%
I don't really have much analysis at this moment, and I won't be making a joke at another player's expense. Sorry since that pissed people off enough to ignore the rest of my post. However, ZEEnon and Danny still owe me responses for that post.
Town: 2-3-0
Mafia: 1-0-0
Neu~: 0-0-0
-neu: 0-1-0
"To give a PM in an open game that isn't shown is bastard modding. [...] LK wouldn't do that." ~KMD4390
Light-kun wrote:However, ZEEnon and Danny still owe me responses for that post.
Light-kun wrote:
ZEEnon wrote:
"obvious sarcasm" you say? only scum benefit from 'randomly' voting ..
False.
ZEEnon wrote:i admit, i did over-exaggerate in this part. but essentially random votes makes it easier for scum to hide their intentions.
i agree with the rest of your points, so i didn't address them or else it would be seen as me agreeing with you too much and/or me just posting for the sake of posting.
). Bigger post probably coming this weekend.
