Mini 745 - Moving Day Mafia (GAME OVER!)

[Zer0ph34r]

I don't get why you would want things to move along, but put the deadline in 2 WEEKS.

Erratus, not reading the post doesn't necessarily make you scum, it's just a stupid thing to do. I get it, some posts are incredibly long and boring, but you could at least glance through them. But it does seem suspicious or at least lazy.

Top of page 14 vote count:

ac1983fan 3 (q21, Erratus Apathos, Plonky)
killa seven 2 (Tovarish, dejkha)
ZEEnon 1 (Jazzmyn)
Herodotus 1 (ZEEnon)
Plonky 1 (don_johnson)
dejkha 1 (Herodotus)

Not voting: killa seven, Zer0ph34r

With 12 still packing it takes 7 to lynch.

Note: this vote count should be accurate as of this post.

Prods: Plonky

[ZEEnon]

i've been really busy lately so i apologize for the inactivity. i will try to leave a post everytime i get home right before i start studying .

And why did you think ZEE wasn't behind you?

i didn't understand this question at first, but i re-read, and yes, i wonder this as well. i obviously voiced my opinions on the killa seven lynch, so not including me in that list seems suspicious. also, right now we don't have solid evidence that he is scum. besides his inactivity, lurking, and short posts, which i admit are not very pro-town, it might just be his style of playing the game .

I don't get why you would want things to move along, but put the deadline in 2 WEEKS.

i agree with this. i read it a couple times because i thought i read it wrong.
the deadline is far off so i don't think it will help spark discussion for a while .

[Herodotus]

Basically I see his 24 hour warning as scum hoping the wagon would continue to grow and that he would have the opportunity to place his vote near the end of it to try to get some assurance that it happened. His warning means that when questioned about his vote he could say, "But I said I was going to do it."

This is possible. But it seems like if he voted, and the wagon didn't grow, his vote would easily be excused as "pressure."
Also, unless K7 had a major change of personality or replacement, AC was somewhat obligated to vote and "support K7's lynch." To fail to do so might have drawn suspicion; consequently AC didn't really stand to gain much in terms of assurance that he'd only have to participate in the wagon if it grew first.
Although this raises the question of his timing again. It's possible that the reason he didn't wait 24 hours is because he wanted to reach a lynch before anyone had an opportunity to unvote and/or because he thought being the L-1 was much better than hammering.

His comments about k7 not being scum, just unconstructive townie, seem like preparation for dealing with the fallout of lynching k7 and getting a townie flip.

I still think that, as scum, he'd be better off claiming a 30-40% scummy read on Killer. The fallout he's currently experiencing was pretty much inevitable, and harsher, than having an opinion that some townie he was voting was above baseline likelihood of being scum. Even 40% is less than half, so he could easily say Killer was more likely pro-town than scum but still above the "lynchworthy threshold."

The way your case is presented pretty much precludes dejka and acfan of being scum together (not to say that they can't be, just not using your reasoning) and I like my acfan vote at the moment.

I think that finding either to be scum would look good for, but not entirely clear, the other. I'm not sure about the implications for Killer and EA, but if AC is scum that would refute my strongest single point against EA.
AC has definitely given off some scum-tells today, so I can understand liking your vote on him. I'm not convinced he's scum, though. Maybe in a couple days I should reread him in isolation. I need a new frame of mind, because right now I'm reading him with a bias toward thinking he's pro-town because that's my current read.

[Herodotus]

there are plenty of people not doing shit, you guys are so focused on me "not helping" that you fail to see the others coasting it out, what about EA? he hoped on my wagon saying post or die.. then posted once then came back to hop on AC's wagon with another weak excuse once he was taking heat, i may be lazy somtimes but i dont just throw my vote around like a frizbee and abandon wagons because they lose steam.

I was taking heat? You were the only one attacking me, and like I said before: if I was scum, I wouldn't care one bit about you attacking me, since I'd know you're going to lurk your ass off rather than do jack shit to get me lynched.

Good point about not throwing your vote around by the way. It's sooooo protown to refuse to change your mind when new evidence comes up.

LOL this made me laugh

I don't get the joke. Both of his points are valid IMO.

[q21]

Just one point I'd like to carry further.

Basically I see his 24 hour warning as scum hoping the wagon would continue to grow and that he would have the opportunity to place his vote near the end of it to try to get some assurance that it happened. His warning means that when questioned about his vote he could say, "But I said I was going to do it."

This is possible. But it seems like if he voted, and the wagon didn't grow, his vote would easily be excused as "pressure."
Also, unless K7 had a major change of personality or replacement, AC was somewhat obligated to vote and "support K7's lynch." To fail to do so might have drawn suspicion; consequently AC didn't really stand to gain much in terms of assurance that he'd only have to participate in the wagon if it grew first.

[snip]

From his perspective as scum if no one voted in his 24 (read:11) hours then his vote could have been construed as pressure. If people did vote (as they did) then he has the opportunity to move the lynch forward.

As for being obligated to support k7's lynch. For a while, yes, but if interest in k7 dies he can change after a while without much problem as its not unusual for townies to give up on lynches that look like they aren't going to happen.

[Herodotus]

But the question is whether AC, as scum, would gain any advantage from the pseudo-vote. The same explanation, pressure, could be used for an immediate vote on a wagon that did not go farther. Is his pseudo-vote more likely to bring pro-towns to the Killer wagon than a regular vote would? I can see how that is possible, but only if it drew extra attention, which he would not want if he's scum. Or is the pseudo-vote more justifiable in the event that Killer is later proven town?

I don't get why you would want things to move along, but put the deadline in 2 WEEKS.

I don't get why you would want things to move along, but put the deadline in 2 WEEKS.

i agree with this. i read it a couple times because i thought i read it wrong.
the deadline is far off so i don't think it will help spark discussion for a while .

Wanting the deadline to arrive sooner is quite anti-town. Also, it will make the Killer lynch you say you oppose more likely.
And if either of you is interested in moving things along or sparking conversation earlier, all you have to do is post ideas and questions.
Here's a question for ZEE. If I recall correctly, the last argument you made that someone was scummy was against me for wishy-washy voting. Do you find me the most suspicious? If not, whom?

[ZEEnon]

Here's a question for ZEE. If I recall correctly, the last argument you made that someone was scummy was against me for wishy-washy voting. Do you find me the most suspicious? If not, whom?

My last post to do with accusing someone:

you are just jumping to conclusions and making random theories, aren't you? i must have forgot to include them, but their reasons were probably the same as the others. plus you are all attacking killa seven, but perhaps he isn't scum. then you would have learned nothing besides the fact that the eager mafia were on his bandwagon. i think it would be better to pressure other people, such as me. Jazzmyn threatening it doesn't me that she is downright scum. i think the fact that she didn't do it shows a little more townie side of her, but i can't automatically assume she is town.

I do not find you the most suspicious. On the contary, your abundance of posts is certainly pro-town for the most part. I'm just confused as to why you are on the killa seven bandwagon for the reasons I posted in my previous post. If you have more reasons to be suspicious of him, please post them and I will consider them. I'm voting you because I do not support a killa seven lynch right now and I find you, if you are scum, to be the most suspicious out of the voters.

[Zer0ph34r]

I didn't say I wanted the deadline sooner, I said [READ POST]. That doesn't say anywhere in there that I want it to happen sooner.

[ac1983fan]

I didn't say I wanted the deadline sooner, I said [READ POST]. That doesn't say anywhere in there that I want it to happen sooner.

What exactly did you mean in the post? Did you mean to ask the mod to change the deadline in the title from March 12 to Two weeks? Because march 12 is in two weeks from yesterday, for everyone who didn't notice.

[Erratus Apathos]

And yes scum do have a reason to post that they think their target is town, namely their target usually IS town and they don't want to look bad for accusing an innocent. By hiding behind "sacrificable innocent" bullshit, they can lynch an innocent without looking bad for a plan going wrong.

Sure, but it would be easier to hide behind "guess I was wrong." Especially consider if the lynch doesn't go through -- if AC said he thought K7 was scum, and K7's alignment is never revealed, AC would probably never have to be held accountable for being on his wagon. But even if the lynch happened, we all know that everyone makes mistakes. There are pro-towns on the wagon practically every time a pro-town is lynched, and normally it's because they were mistaken about their target's alignment.

So? That hasn't stopped (and shouldn't stop) anyone from scrutinizing players on a mislynch. Not that saying "it's okay to sacrifice (townie)" does either, of course, but it's nowhere near as common.

"scum-like mistakes that scum would purposely avoid"? Are there scum-like mistakes that scum would

not

purposely avoid?

Maybe not; I don't know. Ask someone who is better at this than I am*. One possible example is things they wouldn't know better than to do, i.e. relatively unknown scumtells. But either way, I was referring to things that scum would specifically avoid doing. My sincerest apologies if my statement was redundant. That would be semantically incorrect of me.

Yes, scum only avoid scumtells they know about. Thing is, so do townies. Nobody intentionally makes scumtells. I guess what I'm saying is, if scum would avoid saying something if they knew it would lead to suspicion on them, why wouldn't a townie also? Why is this a thing that town is more likely to do?

You know what's better than semantics? Anything else at all. Yes there are very rare circumstances where intentionally lynching town is beneficial, who gives a fuck? And when I said I didn't believe AC's story, I'm pretty sure AC being scum wasn't a part of that story

What I could not figure out is why you said that you don't buy (this does mean the same as believe in this context, yes?) that AC thinks K7 is a townie who should be lynched. To break it down into two parts: Do you believe AC thinks K7 should be lynched? Do you believe AC thinks K7 is town?

Well, yes. I guess when I said I don't believe those things I should have specified that I didn't believe he was town and also those things. Obviously I lose at semantics.

If I believed killa seven was town, I would absolutely not be voting him

WTF? I didn't say I thought he was scum in that post.

Are you just referring to the level of certainty you were using? If so, you are nitpicking.

It is not nitpicking. There is a world of difference between a policy lynch and a regular lynch.

Obviously you didn't say you were sure he was scum, but the point is that this was the first post in which you indicated either way whether you had more of a town-read or a scum-read on K7.

I didn't really indicate my read, so much as deny that I had a town read. (This, on the other hand, is nitpicking.)

It's a lurker pressure wagon. Joining in any order is inherently advantageous to town.

And joining when you and Dejkha did is even more advantageous to scum.

Okay. How is advantageous to scum? Oh wait I remember, because I was voting obvtown k7. And also that k7 is obvtown because I'm scum trying to lynch him. I guess I used the "circular logic" joke too early.

Try again.

There's no need. It is unlikely that I haven't just either voted or FOS'ed either one or two scum. The only questions are which of you to lynch first, and whether maybe only one of you is scum, while the other just stumbled into looking scummy.

Somehow, I think if your voting order tell was really that likely to catch scum, it'd be used in every game, or at least in a lot more than just this one. On the off chance that you didn't pull it out of your ass, where did you get it from?

Are you not reading the thread?

HE CLAIMED VANILLA

. He is, therefore, either a townie, a member of the mafia with a claim which I've never seen stop a lynch wagon, or a really stupid power role. I obviously have no actual idea if he's town or scum or some sort of jester or some other wierd shit. I'm voting him because he has displayed the most ANTI-TOWN behavior, i.e. NOTHING HE HAS DONE HAS HELPED THE TOWN. If he comes up scum, he was playing as really bad scum. Really bad.

Ah shit, you got me, I am in fact not reading the thread. I didn't read post 255 where you say he's probably town, I didn't read post 273 where you say you have no idea if he's town, and I didn't read post 276 where you estimate his odds of being scum at 1/6. Good thing for you that I didn't read them, because publicly noting that sort of inconsistency would make it hard for you to survive.

I was being somewhat sarcastic. But seriously, you didn't respond to the point I was making.

Nor you mine, I note.

You say you think k7 is town, but are willing to lynch him anyways because "he has displayed the most ANTI-TOWN behavior". So? If he's town, that's still a mislynch. Why are you trying to mislynch? Is it because that's how you win?

First of all, there is really no reasoning for why he would be scum, because the only reason anyone (including yourself) have been voting for him, is because he has not been posting, which is his early game playstyle (which most of us agree is incredibly anti-town)

He has too been posting. Not anywhere close to satisfactory levels, but it's enough for an early read.

@EA and dejka: Could you each tell us why you are voting for Killer Seven?

Because I don't tolerate lurking.

(Not because you think he's scum?)

How in the world would I be able to guess whether he's scum? In case you haven't noticed, he's a lurker!

I don't see you saying anything to anyone else voting for him. I'm pretty sure most of them think that he is town, since scum knows claiming vanilla will likely not save them.

Uhhh, no. If I believed killa seven was town, I would absolutely not be voting him, because lynching town flies

directly

in the face of my win-con. I don't buy for one second that you believe k7 is town but think he should be lynched regardless.

Unvote
Vote: ac1983fan

This might not be particularly scummy; you're leaving the most promising wagon for the second most promising. You could have scummy or pro-town reasons for doing so.
But it's kind of weird that you indicate that you think K7 is scum

for the first time

, then unvote in the same post.

WTF? I didn't say I thought he was scum in that post.

So you do think he might be scum, but you don't think he's scum, but you're voting me because I don't really think he's scum? please explain your logic here?

I never said I didn't think he was scum. Just because I do in fact think he could be scum, doesn't mean I can't ask Herodotus about how he came to his conclusion.

So then why are you voting for me if you don't think I'm scum? unless you do think I'm scum, and you just word your posts really oddly.

I never said that either.

If k7 is scum, he's bad scum, or just really doesn't care, because scum generally don't (and shouldn't) expect a vanilla claim to protect them.
I'm not complaining about odds; 13 games isn't enough to make a statistical conclusion. If you surveyed 200 completed games in little italy, the number of scum lynches day 1 would probably be between 45 and 65 (I'd say 45-55, but there are some minis which have night start). I'm not saying it's impossible, but with day start games, you have very little info to go on. So lynching somebody who's not contributing but likely a townie is far better than some of the other possibilities, like lynching the cop or doc.

So given the choice of lynching probable townies, or lynching probable scum who

might

be power roles, you'd rather lynch townies. That would be the most anti-town thing I've ever heard of, had I not heard of killa seven.

That's not what I said, I said given the choice between lynching a noncontributing probable townie, and lynching another player who seems a

little

scummy to me, I would rather lynch the player with the clear anti-town behavior, esp. on day 1 when we have no information other than hunches and behavior to go on. Please refrain from twisting my words.

"Twisting my words" is probably the most useless phrase in mafia vernacular. Nobody ever interprets a post

exactly

the way the poster intended. Your words will be twisted, get over it.

With that aside, I feel this a typical protown response - scum just don't bitch about being misunderstood like this.

You're still wrong, though. The reason there are fewer mislynches on later days is because there are fewer suspects. If we don't lynch a suspect today, tomorrow will be just as "hunches and behavior" as today. But at the same time, scum can and do claim vanilla, so k7 shouldn't be removed from the suspect pool for his claim.

Erratus, not reading the post doesn't necessarily make you scum, it's just a stupid thing to do. I get it, some posts are incredibly long and boring, but you could at least glance through them. But it does seem suspicious or at least lazy.

Get a sarcasm detector.

(Not that I never skip posts, though, but nobody in this game has a signal-to-noise ratio even close to BM's so I wouldn't be concerned.)

Unvote

[Zer0ph34r]

What I meant by that post was that I just found it odd because to me, 2 weeks is a while away, and the mod said that she wanted to move things along quickly.

Erratus: Sorry, but it's hard to detect sarcasm when it is typed and you assume the tone of what someone's saying. So, don't say that like it's easy to detect it.

[Herodotus]

I'm just confused as to why you are on the killa seven bandwagon for the reasons I posted in my previous post.

I'm not. It is still possible that I would support a killer lynch today, but I haven't been voting him since page 9, and I don't expect to return to him without a good reason. Note also that my current suspicion is based on guessing he is town-aligned.

And yes scum do have a reason to post that they think their target is town, namely their target usually IS town and they don't want to look bad for accusing an innocent. By hiding behind "sacrificable innocent" bullshit, they can lynch an innocent without looking bad for a plan going wrong.

Sure, but it would be easier to hide behind "guess I was wrong." Especially consider if the lynch doesn't go through -- if AC said he thought K7 was scum, and K7's alignment is never revealed, AC would probably never have to be held accountable for being on his wagon. But even if the lynch happened, we all know that everyone makes mistakes. There are pro-towns on the wagon practically every time a pro-town is lynched, and normally it's because they were mistaken about their target's alignment.

So? That hasn't stopped (and shouldn't stop) anyone from scrutinizing players on a mislynch. Not that saying "it's okay to sacrifice (townie)" does either, of course, but it's nowhere near as common.

The point is the relative degree of suspicion/scrutiny. I said it's

easier

(more effective might be a better way to put it) to defend yourself saying you misread someone's alignment than it is to explain that you wanted to lynch someone you admit you feel is a townie. Also, if Killer's alignment is not revealed (i.e. if scum-AC's plan to get him mislynched fails,) then AC never has to worry about being scrutinized/suspected over having believed him to be likely scum. Since the scum have freedom in manufacturing their opinions, taking the path of greatest resistance is not generally worthwhile.

"scum-like mistakes that scum would purposely avoid"? Are there scum-like mistakes that scum would

not

purposely avoid?

Maybe not; I don't know. Ask someone who is better at this than I am. One possible example is things they wouldn't know better than to do, i.e. relatively unknown scumtells. But either way, I was referring to things that scum would specifically avoid doing. My sincerest apologies if my statement was redundant. That would be semantically incorrect of me.

Yes, scum only avoid scumtells they know about. Thing is, so do townies. Nobody intentionally makes scumtells. I guess what I'm saying is, if scum would avoid saying something if they knew it would lead to suspicion on them, why wouldn't a townie also? Why is this a thing that town is more likely to do?

1) It is my suspicion that scum are more guarded about the things they say. I might be wrong about that.
2) Town-sided people tend to want to get more information about their thoughts out. A townie knows that lying just to avoid suspicion may be sabotaging his own team. Thus all else being equal, openly admitting something that you know could be used against you makes it a pretty weak tell in general.

Well, yes. I guess when I said I don't believe those things I should have specified that I didn't believe he was town and also those things. Obviously I lose at semantics.

This is a written game. If you write something, don't count on everyone assuming you mean something completely different. Plenty of scum-tells are based on people (accidently) writing what they really mean instead of what they want others to think they mean. Check out the comments about Plonky, in this game.

If I believed killa seven was town, I would absolutely not be voting him

WTF? I didn't say I thought he was scum in that post.

Are you just referring to the level of certainty you were using? If so, you are nitpicking.

It is not nitpicking. There is a world of difference between a policy lynch and a regular lynch.

Obviously you didn't say you were sure he was scum, but the point is that this was the first post in which you indicated either way whether you had more of a town-read or a scum-read on K7.

I didn't really indicate my read, so much as deny that I had a town read. (This, on the other hand, is nitpicking.)

And this is convoluted. You were voting for Killer, but you wouldn't have been voting for Killer if you believed he was town, but you didn't think he was scum, and didn't indicate any read when you said that? Nonsense. And even if it made sense, you would be admitting that you still hadn't told us at the time whether you found Killer scummy. It was already suspicious to think that you waited until the post in which you unvoted.

It's a lurker pressure wagon. Joining in any order is inherently advantageous to town.

And joining when you and Dejkha did is even more advantageous to scum.

Okay. How is advantageous to scum? Oh wait I remember, because I was voting obvtown k7. And also that k7 is obvtown because I'm scum trying to lynch him. I guess I used the "circular logic" joke too early.

It's not circular at all, because I never used your scumminess to clear AC and K7 (though if we lynch/vig/investigate/etc. you two and you both come up as scum, then we will have evidence in favor of both of them, I think. And me, because I wouldn't bus two scum partners out of the blue.) But even if it were circular, that wouldn't make it wrong. There are only a finite number of possibilities, and the argument I made fits with the information available. It would be an even stronger argument if K7 and AC were proven town, but arguing from probability is acceptable.

Somehow, I think if your voting order tell was really that likely to catch scum, it'd be used in every game, or at least in a lot more than just this one.

It's not in every game that someone says "I'm going to vote for you later!" then "I'm going to vote for you 24 hours from now!"

On the off chance that you didn't pull it out of your ass, where did you get it from?

Are you asking because you want to learn about new strategies, or to discredit my argument? Because in the first case, you'll have to wait until the end of the game. And in the second case, you are making a genetic fallacy by requesting that I appeal to authority when I'm arguing from reason, not authority.

[q21]

Reading through the EA/Hero exchange that's been going on. EA comes out looking the worse of the two and possibly a little scummy for that. However, I'm not convinced that that isn't just because Hero's better at arguing than EA... Will keep a closer eye on EA from here on, though.

[ac1983fan]

Are you not reading the thread?

HE CLAIMED VANILLA

. He is, therefore, either a townie, a member of the mafia with a claim which I've never seen stop a lynch wagon, or a really stupid power role. I obviously have no actual idea if he's town or scum or some sort of jester or some other wierd shit. I'm voting him because he has displayed the most ANTI-TOWN behavior, i.e. NOTHING HE HAS DONE HAS HELPED THE TOWN. If he comes up scum, he was playing as really bad scum. Really bad.

Ah shit, you got me, I am in fact not reading the thread. I didn't read post 255 where you say he's probably town, I didn't read post 273 where you say you have no idea if he's town, and I didn't read post 276 where you estimate his odds of being scum at 1/6. Good thing for you that I didn't read them, because publicly noting that sort of inconsistency would make it hard for you to survive.

I was being somewhat sarcastic. But seriously, you didn't respond to the point I was making.

Nor you mine, I note.

You say you think k7 is town, but are willing to lynch him anyways because "he has displayed the most ANTI-TOWN behavior". So? If he's town, that's still a mislynch. Why are you trying to mislynch? Is it because that's how you win?

Alright, I'll explain myself fully. I have no actual information to know if killa seven is town or not. He seems, however, to have a playstyle that is incredibly anti-town in nature. He has also claimed townie. Scum aren't usually saved by a townie claim, because lynching a townie is far from the worst lynch possible on day 1. And at the time, there were really no other cases I felt compelled to agree with. Because the only alternative being presented at the time was to lynch me, which I obviously don't want to happen.

@EA and dejka: Could you each tell us why you are voting for Killer Seven?

Because I don't tolerate lurking.

(Not because you think he's scum?)

How in the world would I be able to guess whether he's scum? In case you haven't noticed, he's a lurker!

I don't see you saying anything to anyone else voting for him. I'm pretty sure most of them think that he is town, since scum knows claiming vanilla will likely not save them.

Uhhh, no. If I believed killa seven was town, I would absolutely not be voting him, because lynching town flies

directly

in the face of my win-con. I don't buy for one second that you believe k7 is town but think he should be lynched regardless.

Unvote
Vote: ac1983fan

This might not be particularly scummy; you're leaving the most promising wagon for the second most promising. You could have scummy or pro-town reasons for doing so.
But it's kind of weird that you indicate that you think K7 is scum

for the first time

, then unvote in the same post.

WTF? I didn't say I thought he was scum in that post.

So you do think he might be scum, but you don't think he's scum, but you're voting me because I don't really think he's scum? please explain your logic here?

I never said I didn't think he was scum. Just because I do in fact think he could be scum, doesn't mean I can't ask Herodotus about how he came to his conclusion.

So then why are you voting for me if you don't think I'm scum? unless you do think I'm scum, and you just word your posts really oddly.

I never said that either.

Well, the way you've been wording your posts, it just sounded like you were saying you did think k7 was scum but then said you don't think he's scum... I was probably just reading it wrong.

You're still wrong, though. The reason there are fewer mislynches on later days is because there are fewer suspects. If we don't lynch a suspect today, tomorrow will be just as "hunches and behavior" as today. But at the same time, scum can and do claim vanilla, so k7 shouldn't be removed from the suspect pool for his claim.

Well, fewer suspects and more information are together reasons why their are fewer mislynches on later days.

[Jazzmyn]

My home Internet access has been fixed. Upon rereading, I see and understand the cases presented for and against killa seven, but I see much more reason to support his lynch than to shy away from it and give him a free pass. I also see the case presented for and against acfan but I don't see anything there sufficient to support an acfan lynch. Call me naive if you want but I believe his posts about his family issues and I believe that those kinds of issues would interfere with his game, so I am not willing to jump on a bandwagon that started only when he bared those personal issues in the thread.

I also see and understand the case presented on plonky, and I think that plonky is a better target than acfan at the moment.

And, for the sake of completeness, I also see the cases presented on dejkha and EA, but they, too, seem to be lacking in evidence thusfar.

But I just can’t stand the scumminess, selfishness, and grossly anti-town play of killa seven. I feel very strongly that NO player here should be permitted to deliberately and willfully refuse to play the games that he signs up for purposes of building up a meta that he can later exploit to garner himself a ‘get out of jail free on Day 1 card” in every game he plays, as a means to excuse him from playing in subsequent games. Permitting this puts every townie and every town power role at greater risk in

every single game he plays, whether he is town or scum.

Because if he’s town, he sits back, contributes nothing meaningful, and gives the scum a smaller pool of townies to try to lynch, putting every townie at greater risk. And if he’s scum, he puts every townie and every town power role at greater risk because not only does he fly under the radar by virtue of the meta he’s created, he deliberately increases the opportunity for his scum partner(s) to mislynch a townie, while simultaneously getting away with posting nothing at all for use by the town in later days that could otherwise be used against him and his scum partners, which he would not be able to do if players who play the game as it is meant to be played would not meekly accept his deliberate refusal to play the games he signs up for in the manner in which they are meant to be played.

Yet, this is what killa seven is doing and some people seem content to let him just get away with it. I do not understand it. I do not understand why anyone thinks that it is okay for a player to willfully and deliberately put himself and his own meta above the interests of the town if he is town. I can see how getting away with it benefits killa seven personally and how it benefits scum when he is scum, as noted above, but I see nothing at all beneficial to the town and I see nothing at all beneficial about it to the game of mafia overall or to this site as a whole. If everyone played like killa seven, this site would cease to exist very quickly, since no game would ever progress beyond Day 1, and the posts would consist of nothing more than “I’m here,” “I’ve been prodded,” “I’m not interested in Day 1,” “**** you,” “Maybe on Day 2, I’ll participate,” and similar nonsense. He has made it clear that he is not interested in posting any meaningful content and he won’t ask to be replaced, so he is anti-town no matter how you slice it, and more likely to be scum than town, given that his refusal to play on Day 1 benefits scum much more than more than town, no matter what his alignment is.

[can you tell that i dont care by now?

I dont care if im lynched on a day one game that i have put no effort in

And yes i care if my team wins allways

One of these things is not the like the others, one of these things does not belong. [/singalong]

So, killa seven is the player whom I am most inclined to lynch today if he continues to refuse to resile from his pro-scum play style - because that is what it is, make no mistake about it - he is not just acting in a manner that is “anti-town”, he is acting in a manner that is pro-scum.

I fully appreciate that it is neither necessary nor desirable to lynch anyone right this minute as we still have lots of time to talk things over before deadline, and we should use all of that time for purposes of garnering information, so I am not suggesting that anyone should be lynched immediately. But if it comes down to a deadline and the choice is between killa seven and someone who has at least contributed meaningfully to the game, I know where my vote will be. Damn the torpedoes and all that...er, jazz.

Unvote. Vote: killa seven

Can someone who is pointing fingers at acfan(since he's the player with the most votes at the moment) please itemize the case against him? Because he doesn't look particularly scummy to me, and I'm getting the impression that he's being railroaded by scum.

Regards,
Jazz

[ZEEnon]

Before I didn't fully understand the case on killa seven, but since Jazzmyn nicely made a summary of most of it, I can see where all of the people that agree with his lynch are coming from. I actually agree with her post. He should not be allowed to use that as a free day one card. It isn't fair for the players that actually contribute and discuss. It also raises the chance of a townie being lynched if he is not held responsible for his play. Due to all the evidence presented so far,

Unvote. Vote: killa seven .

[Herodotus]

We're not going to see proof on day one. We could if someone were to really mess up, but we shouldn't expect that.

I feel very strongly that NO player here should be permitted to deliberately and willfully refuse to play the games that he signs up for purposes of building up a meta that he can later exploit.....

In fact, they are not. It's a violation of the Forum Rules and Guidelines. It's entirely up to the mod to decide whether and how to respond, but if Raider decides that Killer is not playing to win this particular game, we may see a forced replacement.

[q21]

Call me naive if you want but I believe his posts about his family issues and I believe that those kinds of issues would interfere with his game, so I am not willing to jump on a bandwagon that started only when he bared those personal issues in the thread.

My vote for acfan was for some odd comments he made early in the game with regards to plonky and EA. It was reinforced when he started spouting the view that k7 was more likely to be town, but that he wanted to lynch him anyway.

Nothing to do with his personal issues.

The others voted well after he'd mentioned those issues if I remember correctly.

[Zer0ph34r]

I'm simply annoyed with ac1983fan's methods of trying to get attention or suspicion on me [like that lame what did you mean by post #325 thing]. That seemed a bit dumb to me.

Vote: ac1983fan

[ac1983fan]

I'm simply annoyed with ac1983fan's methods of trying to get attention or suspicion on me [like that lame what did you mean by post #325 thing]. That seemed a bit dumb to me.

Vote: ac1983fan

WTF, I had no idea what you meant, I'm not trying to do either of those things. I didn't initially understand what you meant by this:

I don't get why you would want things to move along, but put the deadline in 2 WEEKS.

Until rereading it this morning.
At first, I thought you meant to say to the mod to change the wording of the title post from March 12 to 2 weeks. Now I understand that you confused as to why the mod's deadline was in 2 weeks as opposed to sooner.
Seriously, WTF? How could anyone interpret that as trying to cast suspicion on you?

[Tovarish]

I don't see why some people are discounting k7 as a suspect. ^ How does asking for clarification count as scummy or "lame?"

Mod- replace killa seven

?

He is meeting the posting requirements so that is not possible.

That said, I'll shamelessly admit that I'm intimidated as hell by the massive quote pyramids and TL;DR ( I did read though) nature of the EA Hero debate. ummm, to me they both made their points well and I'm getting town reads from both of them.

[killa seven]

Are you not reading the thread?

HE CLAIMED VANILLA

. He is, therefore, either a townie, a member of the mafia with a claim which I've never seen stop a lynch wagon, or a really stupid power role. I obviously have no actual idea if he's town or scum or some sort of jester or some other wierd shit. I'm voting him because he has displayed the most ANTI-TOWN behavior, i.e. NOTHING HE HAS DONE HAS HELPED THE TOWN. If he comes up scum, he was playing as really bad scum. Really bad.

Ah shit, you got me, I am in fact not reading the thread. I didn't read post 255 where you say he's probably town, I didn't read post 273 where you say you have no idea if he's town, and I didn't read post 276 where you estimate his odds of being scum at 1/6. Good thing for you that I didn't read them, because publicly noting that sort of inconsistency would make it hard for you to survive.

I was being somewhat sarcastic. But seriously, you didn't respond to the point I was making.

Nor you mine, I note.

You say you think k7 is town, but are willing to lynch him anyways because "he has displayed the most ANTI-TOWN behavior". So? If he's town, that's still a mislynch. Why are you trying to mislynch? Is it because that's how you win?

Alright, I'll explain myself fully. I have no actual information to know if killa seven is town or not. He seems, however, to have a playstyle that is incredibly anti-town in nature. He has also claimed townie. Scum aren't usually saved by a townie claim, because lynching a townie is far from the worst lynch possible on day 1. And at the time, there were really no other cases I felt compelled to agree with. Because the only alternative being presented at the time was to lynch me, which I obviously don't want to happen.

@EA and dejka: Could you each tell us why you are voting for Killer Seven?

Because I don't tolerate lurking.

(Not because you think he's scum?)

How in the world would I be able to guess whether he's scum? In case you haven't noticed, he's a lurker!

I don't see you saying anything to anyone else voting for him. I'm pretty sure most of them think that he is town, since scum knows claiming vanilla will likely not save them.

Uhhh, no. If I believed killa seven was town, I would absolutely not be voting him, because lynching town flies

directly

in the face of my win-con. I don't buy for one second that you believe k7 is town but think he should be lynched regardless.

Unvote
Vote: ac1983fan

This might not be particularly scummy; you're leaving the most promising wagon for the second most promising. You could have scummy or pro-town reasons for doing so.
But it's kind of weird that you indicate that you think K7 is scum

for the first time

, then unvote in the same post.

WTF? I didn't say I thought he was scum in that post.

So you do think he might be scum, but you don't think he's scum, but you're voting me because I don't really think he's scum? please explain your logic here?

I never said I didn't think he was scum. Just because I do in fact think he could be scum, doesn't mean I can't ask Herodotus about how he came to his conclusion.

So then why are you voting for me if you don't think I'm scum? unless you do think I'm scum, and you just word your posts really oddly.

I never said that either.

Well, the way you've been wording your posts, it just sounded like you were saying you did think k7 was scum but then said you don't think he's scum... I was probably just reading it wrong.

You're still wrong, though. The reason there are fewer mislynches on later days is because there are fewer suspects. If we don't lynch a suspect today, tomorrow will be just as "hunches and behavior" as today. But at the same time, scum can and do claim vanilla, so k7 shouldn't be removed from the suspect pool for his claim.

Well, fewer suspects and more information are together reasons why their are fewer mislynches on later days.

the first thing you said is really scummy, i dont feel like shuffling through all the quotes.

[ac1983fan]

the first thing you said is really scummy, i dont feel like shuffling through all the quotes.

The fact that I dislike your incredibly anti-town playstyle is scummy?
Or the fact that I want to lynch you for not contributing?

[dejkha]

I'm simply annoyed with ac1983fan's methods of trying to get attention or suspicion on me [like that lame what did you mean by post #325 thing]. That seemed a bit dumb to me.

Vote: ac1983fan

WTF, I had no idea what you meant, I'm not trying to do either of those things. I didn't initially understand what you meant by this.

I'm inclined to agree with this. Even I had no idea what Zer0 meant. I just assumed he was mentioning how the game had a deadline... That's hardly a good reason to vote for him and a weak one at that.

[raider8169]

Prodded: don_johnson, Plonky

Plonky did not pick up his prod from Friday, he has until tomorrow to pick it up and post before I start looking for a replacement.