Mini 698 - Georgetown Mafia - Game over

[MacavityLock]

I am realizing that between

Like it wasn't already obvious how town Jazz is or something.

Always good to have more information from the obv-towns

and qwintz's claim of protecting Jazz last night, qwintz and LF would make for really good scumbuddies.

[Huntress]

Vote Count

Qwints 2 - (Apothecary, MacavityLock)
MacavityLock 1 - (LLamaFluff)
LLamaFluff 2 - (Elmo, Qwints)

Not voting 2 - (Corvuus, Jazzmyn)

With seven players alive, it takes four votes to lynch.

Deadline is

Saturday 28th February 11.00 am GMT.

@mod - Would multiple faction kills be apparent if a player was targeted for more then one kill in a night?

Not necessarily.

[Apothecary]

Apologies everyone, but I have to call in a replacement. Life has become rather busy. It was fun playing with you all.

[Corvuus]

Hope everything in RL works out for you Apoth.

Mod: i know we already did an extension, but in light of replacement/timing to get replacement, could deadline be pushed back again a few days?

A decision may be made without Apoth/replacement but who knows.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I'm going to try to re-read ML again in light of his reasoning/mentality but I think my own impression is similar to Jazz's.

I am not the clearest, concise or most articulate, but I didn't (and still don't) see why everyone bought into Primate's PR which at first I thought 'amusing/interesting' and then "anti-town, to the point of it having to be voluntary".

SC's reactions, responses and posts (SC said Primate 'could have evidence, he isn't saying that he doesn't' and his various other responses) made me think SC was scum confused by his scumbuddy (primate/ythill) posting on him. I was considering and pursuing this when Primate replaced out (Ythill was more helpful and townie than primate by a lot) and the fact that if SC and Primate were scumbuddies, then that only leaves 1 or 2 more scum, and more than 1 or 2 people were going after me and saying "that they could understand Primate's posts" (which later on, they couldn't) and that they thought I was scummy for going after a PR which they considered 'confirmed' or 'no reason to doubt'.

ML: You said you could understand Primate's post, kind of supporting/agreeing with SC that i was 'off'. This bothered me but then Apoth, and others did similar or 'worse' so it just confused me even more into a paranoia/extremist mentality.

I have to go back and check the chronology of it and referring to which posts and such but SC's post #38 in isolation has him quoting you (ML) saying you can see a case on SC, MM and 'you' (i don't remember who the 'you' refers to). SC says, 'whats the case on MM?', apparently ignoring the fact that you said you have a case on SC.

This made me think SC (as silly scum) just ignores cases on himself made by his scumbuddies (ML, Primate/Ythill) but he 'leaps' after everything else done by other players. We know that this isn't true with Primate/Ythill now (and I still don't know why SC let Primate say he is scum twice with no defense, reasoning, or anything and inconsistent with his own play this game) but it still leaves several questions for SC-ML.

I can see how you (ML) argue that you didn't ignore or leave SC alone (possible, but you didn't go after him that much) but what about SC leaving you alone or ignoring your comment?

There are other parts which bother me in terms of phrasing and design but I guess it amounts to this:

SC stated he had "reasons to believe" that the PR was real. (post #34, SC) A reason has never been given or appeared as to why it *should* be real and yet SC and ML both believed it, said they could interpret it, etc. I took this as 'buddying' with SC-Ythill/Primate-ML (which is why upon SC's scumflip, several of us said ythill is next) and it could explain why Ythill was nightkilled (assuming no crumb by Ythill, primate may have been crumbing that he was a power role with his "i got my eye on you, surveillance robber, convenience store thing") to simply break up the chain of SC-Ythill-ML. You, ML, also stated you had reasons to believe the PR or that you could interpret it (which threw me for a loop since I got nothing out of it but at least 2 players said they could 'figure him out'. SC saying he could understand and figure him out while Primate had SC as scum just seemed implausibly insane.

Even after, at least to me, I had confirmed that the PR was voluntary and such, SC still had nothing on Primate, and his responses/answers were interesting and strange enough that I bought into the whole 'Ythill-SC-whoever believed Primate's PR without explaining why or being convinced at some point' and you happen to be it ML.

I could go on but I don't know if I am being articulate enough or getting my point across. I simply don't see why you agreed with Primate's PR and him being interpretable and the interaction and stance with SC.

Corvuus

[MacavityLock]

I have to go back and check the chronology of it and referring to which posts and such but SC's post #38 in isolation has him quoting you (ML) saying you can see a case on SC, MM and 'you' (i don't remember who the 'you' refers to). SC says, 'whats the case on MM?', apparently ignoring the fact that you said you have a case on SC.

He asked for my case on MM. I answered him. Let's say you thought 2 players were scummy, Player A and Player B. Say Player A asked you straight up "what's your case on Player B?" would you answer or not? In your answer, would feel like you were required to say "By the way, I still think Player A is scummy"?

This made me think SC (as silly scum) just ignores cases on himself made by his scumbuddies (ML, Primate/Ythill) but he 'leaps' after everything else done by other players. We know that this isn't true with Primate/Ythill now (and I still don't know why SC let Primate say he is scum twice with no defense, reasoning, or anything and inconsistent with his own play this game) but it still leaves several questions for SC-ML.

So, you've now given an example of how SC ignored an attack on him from a proven townie. Doesn't that make me

more

likely to be a townie if he ignored my attack?

I can see how you (ML) argue that you didn't ignore or leave SC alone (possible, but you didn't go after him that much) but what about SC leaving you alone or ignoring your comment?

I can't answer for SC's motivations.

A reason has never been given or appeared as to why it *should* be real and yet SC and ML both believed it, said they could interpret it, etc. I took this as 'buddying' with SC-Ythill/Primate-ML (which is why upon SC's scumflip, several of us said ythill is next) and it could explain why Ythill was nightkilled (assuming no crumb by Ythill, primate may have been crumbing that he was a power role with his "i got my eye on you, surveillance robber, convenience store thing") to simply break up the chain of SC-Ythill-ML. You, ML, also stated you had reasons to believe the PR or that you could interpret it (which threw me for a loop since I got nothing out of it but at least 2 players said they could 'figure him out'.

Early on, I believed Primate's PR (no reason not to), and as I stated as long as I could understand, I was okay with it. Once it became clear that the PR was made up and he became intractable, I got fed up.

I don't see how any of your arguments make me more likely to be scum.

[Huntress]

I am looking for a replacement for Apothecary.

[Corvuus]

Well, let me try again then ML.

The game starts, and there is random voting. Fairly normal.

Cephrir is 'mindlessly bandwagoning' and you post "I agree with Cephrir mindlessly bandwagon EG! All aboard" (post #60 overall game). SC votes/FoSes Cephrir (and EG, who was being bandwagoned) but leaves you out of it, completely. Your post#75 is the follow-up where you say you don't follow EG being scummy at all, thought Cephrir was suspicious but think that those on his case for doing it are more suspicious and FoS/vote MM and SC. This is the only real time you say something about SC (everything else is in reference to this point) all the way up until you ask SC to claim.


------

Atlas asks in post #51, "are PR's normal in mini's?". SC (post #52) responds, "most likely no". Primate posts his 'pictures' and you do post "that is Crazy awesome" so you do see his "PR" and were there to comment and understand. SC post #83 is SC's first interpretation of Primate's post.

I show up at post #81 and re-read. I express doubt on the PR. So does Cephrir (#86), who also votes SC based on his response. EG, 2 posts later, also quotes 'truth' of saying that the PR is weird. There are various posts in between but SC was picking up votes (which I probably should have caught on to) but Primate begun bothering me more and more when I thought about it. Post#117, I post that I don't think Primate's PR is real or helpful, etc. Sminty post#119 agrees with me and thinks the PR isn't helpful.

Ceph, SC and MM all say that they don't associate PR with the game but they don't think it is scummy, maybe anti-town but they don't know if it is real or not. MM asks if Primate can post.

Primate and I have our post exchange next. SC votes me for not seeing Primate's vote (which was on SC) and SC and ML both post 130/131 that they are ok with Primate's post/PR. and SC agrees with you in 132 that he can understand the PR and pictures. You both are lying as you both can't post or respond as to what Primate is trying to say.

post 169 is your comments on the PR and followed by your post #174, it seems like you were getting ready to bandwagon him based on his answer. I had read his response, considered him likely to be town, voluntary PR and that he had SC as scum from earlier voting and I unvoted, so did Ceph, and then your post 174 is just frustrated for 'no real reason'. Things proceed and then post #183 by me.

On Primate and SC. SC's response is quite horrible in #186, and #189. i suck at quoting, and clarity, but SC's responses just make me more sure that at least SC is scum and I can leave Primate to worry about later.

The next part confused me and that is when both Cephrir and ML posted against me and ignored SC. SC's responses were horrible (primate may have evidence i am scum, etc. etc.) yet you both ignored that and went after me. Even if I am craplogic/unclear, etc. SC's response was quite telling. This threw me off since I didn't expect that kind of response from Cephrir (who i had viewed as town at that point) so I kind of reconsidered things. Post #190-191. When OGML said scumteam is
SC-Cephrir-ML-Primate I assumed his reasoning was from this kind of interaction and such but I don't remember OGML ever saying why.

Time passes on (yay for me being extremist) and players get prodded/replaced. We have our 'alteration' in post #217, 218 and then followed by SC in post #219.

I posted that I didn't like you posting to avoid a prod since you could supply more info. (in particular you, since I wanted more reads from you). You respond in 218 that you have suspicions on me, SC and MM and nothing much has changed.
This strikes me as scummy since you only see SC suspicious from "early game" (your first vote for SC) but you don't find his response to me horrible or bad at all? I was convinced SC was scum by that point but I couldn't see why town (since not everyone can be scum) couldn't see his crap answers, etc.

219 is SC ignoring the suspicion on himself (remark by ML) and asking about MM.

The rest of the posts follow, post 226 you get sort of fed up with me and I'm at a loss for what to do since town (or players i view as town) think I'm an extremist or scum trying to rile people up, etc. And I don't see how I can move forward towards a SC lynch without getting lynched instead. I didn't see why people ignored SC's scummy response and you said you were suspicious of him but also ignored it and made no comment or real progress which is why I went after you to restate your positions, say more, etc. It could be you just didn't have time (which you claimed) or you could be actively ignoring SC despite your words to the contrary.

My post#252 kind of sums up my feelings. I was working on SC but without Primate there or anything, everyone is just ignoring SC. I also felt ML was strange but I got called out on my "FoS" by Cephrir and i felt that the tide was turning against me so I had better back off, and be extremist (to be consistent) and see what happens with replaced players.

llama replaces in, and I'm pretty happy about that. So does Elmo.

Llama post #275 agreeing with me on SC is good. even if my 'attack/case' is screwed up, SC failed his defense. I realize how I could have done it better, so I try to regather my thoughts when Ythill replaces in. Ythill gives me pause since I view Ythill as town and I'm not too sure how to proceed on SC and Ythill votes Atlas (which threw me off since I thought he would address SC *more* due to his response/interaction with Primate). I didn't like ML, how you continued to ignore SC and still go after MM.

You (ML) in post #289 ask me about how i messed up. I was still thinking then.

Then the replacements (ythill, Elmo), others and ML go after Apoth. I was hoping to go after SC.

I get confused a lot, and people have written me off as townie/extremist/stupid but in the end, the wagon shifts back to SC as Elmo, Llama, Cephrir etc. find his responses 'strange/scummy'. Post#345 is you asking SC for a claim at L-1 and saying he isn't really town looking after ignoring him the whole time before.
Ythill had also ignored him (probably due to linking primate) but with SC's actions, Ythill responds with "huh, he is distancing himself from me, maybe I should look at the case on SC more".

SC claims doc in 348.

Ythill and Atlas post in #353 and 354 now convinces me that Atlas/Qwints is the doc. Ythill says "lets do this before some fool counterclaims". Atlas says "i don't believe the claim because of what Ythill said". Ythill hadn't said anything about the claim itself, just that 'fool doc' shouldn't counterclaim so I take this as Atlas' response showing that he is the doc.

The whole 'slip' by Apothecary happens, wagon shifts, OGML shows up, SC gets lynched. I wish Atlas had posted less on Ythill and more on SC or something else so I could believe Qwints more, but that is where it has to stand.

---------------

Maybe I didn't do a good job of saying it or proving it, but basically, I see you as scum. I posted everything (my viewpoint) since somehow I am labeled as your scumbuddy (which doesn't even make sense to me) for what I think i am doing in this game. You did ignore SC and did try to shift attention elsewhere, and I did ask you (in that don't post to avoid prod) to update your case on SC but nothing was changed. I didn't understand why 'everyone else' was ignoring SC's posts/scumminess at that moment in time but the replacements did read it or figure it out eventually, SC was lynched and you are his buddy.

Corv
P.S.

unvote, vote ML

.

[MacavityLock]

Corv, I don't see a case in there on me. You recounted Day 1 and then completely independently called me scum.

[Jazzmyn]

I am posting this from a neighbour's house as I have been having a problem with my home Internet service since Monday and I am not supposed to post from work so I have not been able to post for the past few days as I have had only horribly sporadic to non-existent access. I am told that the problem is with the outside portion of the Bell line, and that it should be repaired by Friday. If it isn't, I will snag a laptop from work and use some random wi-fi in the neighbourhood to post throughout the weekend.

I have been able to read along from work but posting from work is a major no-no, so I'm pretty much up to date on things but just not able to actually post (except I think for once when a post went through before timing out). It's very frustrating, but it should all be sorted out by Friday when I get home from work.

I see that Apothecary is being replaced and that an extension is possible as a result but I will definitely find a way to post and vote before Saturday in any event, come hell or high water.

Regards,
Jazz

[Corvuus]

fine. I don't wish to spend more time on this and that is apparently all you are ever going to say despite anything i could clarify or add to it.

If you can deem it nice enough to respond to one thing or clarify your own thoughts and intentions regarding it, then when I posted about you 'posting to avoid a prod' and you said you had nothing further on SC, did you read his comments or defense towards me and Primate? What did you think about it, what was going through your head, etc?

If you still don't see it or want to respond, then please start scumhunting now otherwise I see you being lynched anyways.

Corv

[MacavityLock]

If you can deem it nice enough to respond to one thing or clarify your own thoughts and intentions regarding it, then when I posted about you 'posting to avoid a prod' and you said you had nothing further on SC, did you read his comments or defense towards me and Primate? What did you think about it, what was going through your head, etc?

To the point when I made my "post to avoid prod" your arguments with SC mainly dealt with his reaction to Primate and the PR, as well as whether he was defending himself or not. I thought both of those points were null-tells, and not scum-tells. Looking back at it now, I don't think my views have changed. I don't see how SC's reaction to the Primate and the PR made him more likely to be scum. I don't see how SC defending himself in the limited way he did against Primate made him more likely to be scum. Just because you happened to be right doesn't mean your arguments were.

So, discounting your case which I considered to be null, I was left with the suspicions I had to that point: MM, SC, and you Corv, all of whom I had previously posted about.

You make it sound as if everyone had locked and loaded on SC by the time of my avoid-prod post, but that's not true at all. You were probably the only one to have decided on him as def-scum at that point.

Also, please please don't condescend to me. I really don't appreciate it.

If you still don't see it or want to respond, then please start scumhunting now otherwise I see you being lynched anyways.

I think I've made my cases on qwintz and Apoth quite clear. As it turns out, I'm really busy this week, and given Apoth's replace would definitely be in favor of an extension, even though this game has been going forever.

[Corvuus]

I don't find that an acceptable answer.

I never said my arguments (or my original reason for suspecting him due to Primate) were right. I even mentioned earlier how i was 'right' for all the wrong reasons.

The point is this:

Hypothetical: Someone random voting stage votes for a person who happens to be scum. Completely random vote for all the wrong reasons.

The scummy person 'freaks' out and ends up 'slipping' and saying scummy things.

Georgetown: I vote SC for 'wrong reasons' (buddying/defending Primate when Primate was attacking him, etc.), SC responds and says things like:

"I'm not saying he doesn't have evidence that I'm scum"
"Primate has a reason for it, I'm sure"
and then flipflopping on it with more nonsense.

The reason why I was ok with Cephrir's lynch (and yours) is because instead of say actually reading SC's response and seeing how nonsensical and crazy this was, both of you ignored SC and made comments on me being 'extremist'.

It actually is worse for you than Ceph since you state that SC was one of your "top 3 suspects" then how come you didn't read his reactions and see how weird/nonsensical they were, make any comment on it, or do anything with it at all? You really had nothing to say or add from your post #75 (in response to my 'don't post to avoid prod') all the way until you ask SC to claim at L-1?

I could go on and on and list how you weren't really scumhunting and such, how SC did drop out of your suspicion (pointed out by Jazz) but you would probably say 'null-tells', 'i don't see it that way', etc. so I guess it is going to be that we 'agree to disagree' and you aren't really going to do much to try to show that you are town.

-----

I think your scummy, you think you aren't; but you don't have anything else to say or help your case? If a sign of what happened to Cephrir is anything, then I think you should worry more and post more.

As for the "please don't condescend to me" comment. It doesn't help you at all since my post was in response to your "one line post" of "i don't see a case". There is a case, the fact that you got mentioned by OGML, Jazz and others means *there is a case* and you waving it off with a extremely "condescending attitude" of "i don't see a case, null tells to me" doesn't change anything but paves the way for your lynch.

Corv

[qwints]

I need to re-read, but corvuus is coming off a lot better than ML to me right now.

LF - do you still see ML-Corv as scum buddies?

I don't like Jazz's relatively long post to explain her activity without saying something about the game especially when she says she's reading the game. That tends to be a pet peeve of mine. She has, however, continually provided in-depth analysis.

ML - I don't think that your case on apoth is particularly clear. Could you sum it up for me? I think you're referring to your claims that he's been inconsistent and has lurked.

[LlamaFluff]

LF - do you still see ML-Corv as scum buddies?

Not as much thats for sure. I just am a little confused right now since everything I keep trying to plan someone makes me need to immediately tweak. I really need to start reaching a bit to start finding other pairing for ML that dont completely go against the rest of my notes and reads which just is causing me to ignore this game out of frustration over the hand ive been delt.

ML should still be lynched today

@Mod

- Does kill flavor have significance?
Will there be a deadline extension? (just to know if I should check in Friday night or not)

[MacavityLock]

It actually is worse for you than Ceph since you state that SC was one of your "top 3 suspects" then how come you didn't read his reactions and see how weird/nonsensical they were, make any comment on it, or do anything with it at all?

This is horrible logic. You're saying that because I had earlier found SC scummy for something completely unrelated to Primate, I have to agree with you that his actions in reference to Primate were scummy. That's clearly ridiculous.

I could go on and on and list how you weren't really scumhunting

No way was I not scumhunting on Day 1 or any day of this game.

I think your scummy, you think you aren't; but you don't have anything else to say or help your case?

I've answered every question anyone's asked me. Maybe you're not satisfied with my answers, but honestly, what more can I do?

As for the "please don't condescend to me" comment. It doesn't help you at all since my post was in response to your "one line post" of "i don't see a case".

That comment wasn't supposed to help me in this game. It's about common courtesy, and I'd ask you to just watch how you phrase things, because your responses are pissing me off in a way unrelated to the game.

As for my one line "I don't see a case" it was specifically in reference to your post 1006. I seriously don't see any reasoning suggesting I'm scum in that post, and yet you voted. I'm not saying that there has never been a case.

[MacavityLock]

Ooh, cross-post fun.

ML - I don't think that your case on apoth is particularly clear. Could you sum it up for me? I think you're referring to your claims that he's been inconsistent and has lurked.

I'll work on this, but I really am busy the rest of this week, and I really won't be able to guarantee anything unless we get another extension. Sorry about this.

[MacavityLock]

Sorry for the triple post, but hey, you asked.

ML - I don't think that your case on apoth is particularly clear. Could you sum it up for me? I think you're referring to your claims that he's been inconsistent and has lurked.

A good place to start would be my iso 58, the bottom of my iso 71, and my iso 78. When I get a chance, I'm going to go through my notes on the game to see if I have anything else to add. But given Apoth's general lurkiness, the posts I listed probably do a pretty good job of covering my case on Apoth.

[Corvuus]

oh i messed up the vote tag.

vote ML

I don't find my phrasing offensive, and I am sorry if it comes across that way to you.

In the end, it still all comes down to PoE (process of elimination).

I believe Qwints is doc. Jazz, Elmo are town to me, Llama so-so. So that leaves ML and Apoth.

Apoth may be scum, who knows. But compared to everyone else here right now the "circumstantial evidence/null-tells" that you 'scoff' at are going to get you lynched.

Corv
P.S. as for you saying you were scumhunting early day 1, I say 'no'.

[Huntress]

@Mod

- Does kill flavor have significance?

No.

Will there be a deadline extension? (just to know if I should check in Friday night or not)

I'm going to move the deadline to next Wednesday.

[Elmo]

Wow. I still have zero motivation. I feel like picking a name out of a hat.

# The thing with ML is he's not playing like he did in that other game. But there, there was a special mechanic, town didn't know they were town, so at the time I wrote off a bunch of his play that I'd normally have found scummy. It's possible he was only doing it there because he felt he could get away with it. Dunno.
# I remember being perturbed by a bunch of stuff Jazz posted but haven't reread it yet. Obv interested in what ML has to say.
# I still think the Cephrir wagon begged for scum to jump on somewhere. The problem is that I thought the whole thing was bad, so it's hard to figure out where people are just being opportunistic.
# TBQH I'd be real interested in saying hi to Apoth's replacement.
# What are we doing about claims? Apoth claimed townie, but we can't wait until near deadline for the others, and it seems whacky to have four people all claim without massclaiming. Might be optimal, but it's weird.
# Actually, considering we're in LyLo tomorrow with a mislynch, what do people think of a massclaim now? It seems a bit early, but tomorrow might be a bit late, if you see what I mean.

[Elmo]

Oh, I missed that I was assuming three scum. I have to stop doing that, worst case is not the only case. Although I think if there are only two scum total, we have a pretty good shot anyway, so maybe it's worth the assumption.

Hmm. qwints, how many scum do you think there are?

[qwints]

My limited experience with mini-normals suggests that three is the norm. Given the fact that we have at least 3 power roles and no sk, I would expect there to be three.

[Corvuus]

i'm ok with massclaiming but i don't see what added benefit there is really.

if it was a doc cc then maybe, but an existence of another town power role?

hmm..

actually, I take it back. I favor massclaiming.

C

[Elmo]

[Corvuus]

is that supporting massclaim or just your ability to post dancing smilies?