Mini 737 - Hack Poetry Mafia (Game Over)

[RedCoyote]

Wow, okay.

I think we all need to take a step back and analyze this, because I'm concerned this rush of sudden suspicion on me is absolutely scum-ridden.

Defending spring

This word, defense, is being thrown around much too casually. My

opinion

of spring is that she did a poor job lurking through the first part of the game, but lurking != mafia. When I bring up that players like Budja and fhq have been doing the same things and have been giving us the most, especially in Budja's case, inoffensive, vauge, and stereotypical positions that amount to almost nothing, I'm being called out for being spring's white knight.

This has nothing to do with my

opinion

on spring. I am of the

opinion

, after reading her notes and going back through my posts, that her post is genuine. I am of the

opinion

that it was not concoted, as has been suggested by multiple players. I am of the

opinion

that arguments against spring thus far have little to with anything and are almost fully derived in speculation over what someone meant or didn't mean, arguments which I think hold very little water.

Whether or not one wants to hold her more accountable for her lurking is not up for argument. I have said that I don't like it, but I've also said it would be hypocritical of me to continue to pursue that point chiefly because

I

don't think it's a rational scum move. Whether or not that position is derived in WIFOM is irrelevant because I'm not sping; I don't pretend to know why spring did or didn't do something. It's my

opinion

of her, not a stated defense of her. I told fhq my point (read: why I've gotten a different read on spring than he is) is that it didn't seem like something scum would do.

Moreover, I've said that lynching spring is acceptable today. Granted, I think that would be a bad move on the town's part, because I certainly don't think she's the most scummy player here, but spring has no one but herself to blame for ignoring the game as she hasn't given anyone an acceptable excuse of her behavior other than "deal with it".

I think especially Lynx, don, and Goat have been excessive in their characterizations of my positions and my hunting, to the point where don actually made this statement:

RC just seems to be defending spring by casting accusations that don't stick to anyone.

they

lumped several players together trying to create the impression that all the arguments against spring were one and the same when in fact, people had different issues with different areas of SL's play.

I don't know if that was a slip of tongue, but I think it's unwise to partner people up this early in the game, especially when it's based on little more than me buying spring's position over don's.

I will address more specific issues in my next post, mostly about Budja and Goat.

---

I'd really like it if people could point to specific areas as to where they'd like me to express my opinion.

Give us a general feel for every player in the game, quotes to back up what you are saying is always helpful.

Does post 185 sound fake? honest? helpful? unhelpful?

[Goatrevolt]

RC, my problem with your play is mostly based around your misrepresentation of my stances. You continue to "shoot down" or argue against positions that I have not taken.

Example: I've never said Spring's long post wasn't genuine. You argued that I was of that opinion. I think those points were her genuine take on the game. However, I simply don't feel that it's difficult as scum to make that post, and was suspicious of the lack of vote, or at the very least ordered list of preferred lynch targets.

Example: You argue that I find spring's lurking worse than Budja/Fhq/etc. This is false, because I am not voting, nor have I voted for Spring since her long post, and instead my votes have been on...fhq and budja.

Example: You argue that I said you should be equally suspicious of Budja/Fhq/spring, when I did not argue or suggest anything like that. I am not equally suspicious of those 3, why would you assume I'm telling you that you should be?

[Spolium]

Especially for Octopus, who do you guys have as your top three scum at this moment?

In your recap post, do me a favor and say who your top three scum are (and more if you've got it ;D)

Jebus, why are you so eager to obtain a list of those considered most scummy by everyone?

[fhqwhgads]

Damn, lost a post when my PC crashed:

I think we all need to take a step back and analyze this, because I'm concerned this rush of sudden suspicion on me is absolutely scum-ridden.

Possible... but I have to say, I'm rather warming up to the case against you. Spring isn't any less scummy to me ATM, but you certainly are getting scummier to me.

Fine, I take your point about your 'defending' of spring, but the matter of the fact is that you DO talk a LOT about her, and not much else. Also, most of your shooting down arguments are 'I don't believe that.' At one point you even questioned the 'errors' she made when she already admitted them!

At the moment this leads to one of 2 scenarios for me. Your spring's partner and is trying to protect her, or you KNOW spring's alignment already.

Moreover, I've said that lynching spring is acceptable today. Granted, I think that would be a bad move on the town's part, because I certainly don't think she's the most scummy player here, but spring has no one but herself to blame for ignoring the game as she hasn't given anyone an acceptable excuse of her behavior other than "deal with it".

This leads me to believe point 2 above, rather than point one. Hey, that's cake you have there, eating it too I see?

Either way, both paths above leads me to believe it might be a better move to change my vote.

Unvote

[Budja]

[...] or you KNOW spring's alignment already

That is a really good point.
Reminds me a fair bit of an quite insightful comment Goatrevolt said way back.

As for my own personal example, I was scum, and the other player was town. I was "coaching" him because I thought being helpful and telling other people how to play a better game made me look more pro-town. In reality it was a beacon of how insincere my suspicion really was.

unvote: Vote RedCoyote

Looks like you just overtook don on my scum-scale.

[don_johnson]

catching up and saw this:

RC just seems to be defending spring by casting accusations that don't stick to anyone. they lumped several players together trying to create the impression that all the arguments against spring were one and the same when in fact, people had different issues with different areas of SL's play.

I don't know if that was a slip of tongue, but I think it's unwise to partner people up this early in the game, especially when it's based on little more than me buying spring's position over don's.

they refers to you(RC). i interchange the terms in almost all my posts and games. mainly because when i started playing here i would get confused as to peoples genders and saw other players referring to people as they, so its somewhat subconcious. who did you think i was referring to?

[Spolium]

I don't know about anyone else, but I can't help but get a backpedalling vibe from RC when reading #300, particularly with regard to this comment:

Moreover, I've said that lynching spring is acceptable today. Granted, I think that would be a bad move on the town's part, because I certainly don't think she's the most scummy player here, but spring has no one but herself to blame for ignoring the game as she hasn't given anyone an acceptable excuse of her behavior other than "deal with it".

As for the rest of the post... well, when it comes down to it, explaining away an extended defence of a particular player as an

opinion

is meaningless. Everything at this point is an opinion (except for that which is forwarded by scum/investigators, neither of which will readily admit to claiming knowledge of alignment at this point).

Whether or not one wants to hold her more accountable for her lurking is not up for argument. I have said that I don't like it, but I've also said it would be hypocritical of me to continue to pursue that point chiefly because I don't think it's a rational scum move. Whether or not that position is derived in WIFOM is irrelevant because I'm not sping; I don't pretend to know why spring did or didn't do something. It's my opinion of her, not a stated defense of her.

It doesn't bother me that your argument derives from WIFOM - playing mafia well demands WIFOM, even if using it as an argument is something of a faux pas - my problem lies with (1) the fact that you are declaring other cases on Spring invalid for being WIFOM when your

defence

stated opinion of Spring is no better, and (2) your extensive white knighting of Spring based solely on WIFOM (with perhaps a hint of opinion). Your use of WIFOM is therefore quite relevant.

--
Here's something else which I noticed during a quick once-over of RC's posts, with regard to his

defence of

opinion on Spring:

I'm not ashamed to admit I've had a change of heart on spring. Do I agree with the way she played this game? No, and I've said as much. She says, essentially, "Well I did it, now call me out for it or don't".

If Goat or Lynx want to continue pushing her on that point, then I will await and see how much else they'll learn from it, but I don't think she's scum at the moment.

Goat called out RC on the basis that he carried on countering attacks on Spring, evidently contradicting the above declaration.

RC's reply, having quoted the emboldened excerpt above:

as I'm basically trying to say that I don't really see the necessity behind it but I will not completely shut my mind out to it if it produces anything.

It seems that Goat didn't really return to that point, but I feel it is a potent one. RC shifted from "

I will wait and see what they learn

" to "

I will not completely shut out any results

" in order to justify his continued rebuttal of points which he clearly implied he would allow to run their course. He has continued in this manner ever since.

[don_johnson]

Looks like you just overtook don on my scum-scale.

i would like to see your next post RC. latching onto the word "they" is another example of your weak reasoning. you seem to focus on small details of posts which otherwise contain good material for discussion. i accused you of lumping several players together in order to unify the arguments against spring. instead of defending that point and/or producing evidence to the contrary, you attempt to pull some sort of "tell" out of thin air. so answer these questions:

who do you think "they" referred to?

hypothetically, if your answer to the above question is correct, how does that affect the argument against you or the point i was making? i.e. how is it relevant?

[springlullaby]

I'm not buying RC scum atm, especially in light of the present arguments. If anything is indicative of him possibly knowing my alignment and buddying up to me it would be the fact that he was the first one to bring up the jester business, which is a good indication that he never believed I was scum in the first place, which however also makes his 'white knighting' coherent in the event of his being town.

I'm not answering don's last post addressed at me now because my keyboard is broken and it's painful to type, but know that I think it sucks and read scum.

Goat is also requested to state what he makes of my answer since he has made a show of asking about my note taking.

[Goatrevolt]

Goat is also requested to state what he makes of my answer since he has made a show of asking about my note taking.

It's a plausible response. I don't really know what to say about it, because I can't really prove anything one way or another. I think it's less likely that you compiled notes throughout the game, but deliberately chose not to post them, especially because your note post seems fluid, not choppy from multiple additions and compilations. It's not a big enough point for me to act on, though.

[Spolium]

Just to make my stance clear, my gut says RC is town but there are definately some questionable aspects to his play at present. I'm interested to see how he replies to the current volley of challenges.

[...] or you KNOW spring's alignment already

That is a really good point.
Reminds me a fair bit of an quite insightful comment Goatrevolt said way back.

As for my own personal example, I was scum, and the other player was town. I was "coaching" him because I thought being helpful and telling other people how to play a better game made me look more pro-town. In reality it was a beacon of how insincere my suspicion really was.

unvote: Vote RedCoyote
Looks like you just overtook don on my scum-scale.

I must be missing something - what is the link between FHQ's statement and Goat's statement, and why does it justify a vote?

[Lynx The Antithesis]

Sorry for the recent lack of activity. I'm back at school now so I should have more time to post.

RC though you may say that you've only stated your opinion. My "opinion" is that you definitely extended a defense for Spring over the last couple pages.

While I think it is anti-town not to engage, I think it's significantly worse to be in a position of you, Azhrei, or Budja and say spring should be our Public Enemy #1 when all of y'alls contributions have been rather on the light side. Budja in particular has struck the complete wrong chord with me.

Understandable considering that they really hadn't contributed much up to this point.

And I'll even go further than that and say that don, Goat, and Lynx have all slightly pinged back scummy to me for pushing this issue needlessly. I think spring is an easy out, and I would not be surprised if more than one scum is voting her right now...

Now this is where the defense is really coming through. You're basically calling out anyone going after Spring at this point. Like don said you basically "lumped" all of us together even though we were suspicious of Spring for different reasons. Don was going after spring for her analysis post due to a belief of intentional misrepresentations and ambiguities. I was on Spring for her intended Lurking and lack of vote in her huge post calling everyone else out for their milky play. Goat's problem was with Spring was similar to my own, but he wasn't even voting her. Why shouldn't we press the biggest lead and most questionable of the play? When you attack anyone after Spring I think it most definitely can be deemed a defense.

You even question Spolium later for his skepticism of Spring. I think that covered all the Spring pushers to address.

Moreover, I've said that lynching spring is acceptable today. Granted, I think that would be a bad move on the town's part, because I certainly don't think she's the most scummy player here, but spring has no one but herself to blame for ignoring the game as she hasn't given anyone an acceptable excuse of her behavior other than "deal with it".

You're saying it's acceptable, yet you were suspicious that one of the scum may be on her wagon? You seemed so certain that her move wouldn't be beneficial for scum. Then why would you be fine with her lynch. I think you just said this in an effort to shed the defending attacks thrown at you. Before you said you'd only move your vote to her in case of a deadline.

I do find merit in Spolium's post as well I do feel he changed his tone with wanting to see where the pressure went to very against it.

@Lynx, sorry for not clarifying this earlier. I didn't notice your question.
Calling my earlier vote random was silly. The vote was fairly useless virtually as soon as I had placed it, by my own fault.
I was mixing random with casual/generally unimportant as random votes generally are.


In short, I muddled my words up.

It seems like you've slipped alot this game. Poor play or are you just riding these frequent "slip ups"? Post 304 seems a little opportunistic to me as well. Yes, you've expressed some suspicion to Coyote, but I feel you hopped on for the very small, speculative suggestion of possible scum buddying to Spring. I proposed this earlier. Did it not catch your eye then? Seems to me like you were looking for any reason to jump off the completely stalled Don wagon onto the RC wagon.

Vote:Budja

I find it a little curious that all my new fellow Budja Bandwagonee's haven't really said much about Budja since their initial vote laying post. What does everybody think of his recent posts? Does it decrease or increase your suspicion of him? Or was it purely a deadline vote for all of you?

I'd like certainly like to hear the replacements stance on the game when they finally get caught up.

[Deuxieme Octopus]

unvote,
vote: Budja

There's no way around it after reading the entire thread straight through.

In regards to what Lynx just said about why the people on Budja's bandwagon haven't said much, it's because his case is almost self-evident, and these recent posts do nothing to help his case. I can't say they're particularly more scummy than his midgame crap, but he hasn't supplied a legitimate defense at all. (legitimate as in based on evidence that the town at large can see and qualify)

[TonyMontana]

Vote Count

As nightfall draws near, the righteous despair
They see now what burden this fight makes them bear
The evil are scheming, they knows what's at stake
When good folk are dreaming, they might not awake

L-1

Budja

(6) RedCoyote, Spolium, springlullaby, Goatrevolt, Lynx The Antithesis, Deuxieme Octopus
L-4

RedCoyote

(3) don_johnson, jebus, Budja

Not Voting:

fhqwhgads | Plonky | millar13
With

12

alive, it takes

7

to lynch

Deadline in about

3 days and 15 minutes

[Budja]

I fully believe my defence was legitimate.

The worst thing I did was fail to show suspicions IMO and I have being attempting to become more active lately to combat this failure.

I have a bad habit of misplacing words, of using the wrong word when I mean another. I have done this a couple of times to my disadvantage but I can hardly defend myself beyond correcting my mistake. Not much else I can do.

I never really strongly believed in the don case. I simply believed in it more than any other case at that time. I was been hassled to place my vote so I placed it in the best position at the time.
RC's became more scummy, I changed my vote.

The quote from Goat was not meant to confuse or prove anything in particular. It was a comment that loosely reminded me of this case. Perhaps I shouldn't have posted it but it did influence me a bit and I thought it best to show one of the reason I was changing my vote.

Please note that fhq's post is what convinced me the most. The quote was just a minor thing in comparison.

Um well, at this stage do you want a claim?

[Lynx The Antithesis]

I fully believe my defence was legitimate.

The worst thing I did was fail to show suspicions IMO and I have being attempting to become more active lately to combat this failure.

I have a bad habit of misplacing words, of using the wrong word when I mean another. I have done this a couple of times to my disadvantage but I can hardly defend myself beyond correcting my mistake. Not much else I can do.

I never really strongly believed in the don case. I simply believed in it more than any other case at that time. I was been hassled to place my vote so I placed it in the best position at the time.
RC's became more scummy, I changed my vote.

The quote from Goat was not meant to confuse or prove anything in particular. It was a comment that loosely reminded me of this case. Perhaps I shouldn't have posted it but it did influence me a bit and I thought it best to show one of the reason I was changing my vote.

Please note that fhq's post is what convinced me the most. The quote was just a minor thing in comparison.

Um well, at this stage do you want a claim?

You may have put up somewhat of a defense. I just believe that most of it rely's on everybody believing that you've made poor decisions as a player rather than actually explaining your actions. If you didn't believe strongly in the don case, you shouldn't have layed your vote down. You should never just vote simply to appease the town. You just look like you're trying to escape the pressure on you. The possibility that FHQ presented seemed like way too minor a reason to switch your vote.

Anyway I'd like a claim

DO, did anything else stand out in this game besides Budja? What about spring? She's been a pretty big focus so far.

[Jebus]

Especially for Octopus, who do you guys have as your top three scum at this moment?

In your recap post, do me a favor and say who your top three scum are (and more if you've got it ;D)

Jebus, why are you so eager to obtain a list of those considered most scummy by everyone?

Why do you make it sound like a bad thing? Comparing notes has never hurt.


Also, willing to hammer budja closer to the deadline.

[Spolium]

Why do you make it sound like a bad thing? Comparing notes has never hurt.

Did I make it sound like a bad thing? I'm just asking why you want everyone's top three.

[Deuxieme Octopus]

I'm still working out my opinions on Spring. I'm leaning in the negative direction, but I guess that's pretty much where everyone starts out to begin with.

[Jebus]

Why do you make it sound like a bad thing? Comparing notes has never hurt.

Did I make it sound like a bad thing? I'm just asking why you want everyone's top three.

I thought you did, but I can see how you weren't just as easily

I wanted everyone's top three for the sake of comparing notes, so I know that some of my suspicions aren't ridiculous, and so that I've got something to look back on after future lynches/kills.

[don_johnson]

Um well, at this stage do you want a claim?

i think a claim is appropriate.

[Budja]

The vote on don was not just a "vote to appease", it was also a vote on my greatest suspect. I was hassled about not placing a vote, true, and probably for good reason. Having a vote generally shows where your greatest suspicions lie and applys pressure to the target.

FHQ's reason just seemed right to me. call it gut instinct but after I read that paragraph, I felt that it had great possibility.

And well I guess I'll claim then..

I am the Doctor.

[Goatrevolt]

Unvote

for now.

[Goatrevolt]

I need to reread in order to decide whether or not Budja's claim is enough to outweigh his scummy play, and whether or not his play fits his claimed role.

[Spolium]

Well, the claim sort of explains Budja's terse posts, and it's fairly bold for a D1 fakeclaim (in my experience, at least).

Unvote

I will also reread.