Open 123 - Vengeful Mafia - Game Over! before 752

[Crazy]

/confirm

[Crazy]

'Mmkay.

Vote: Tajo

for not having a capitalized name in the vote count.

[Crazy]

When someone's at L-1, one of the scum can hammer and get vigged (they'd be an obvious target), making a 2-1 endgame, if they think that works well for them.

I'm not sure scum would actually want to do that, but it's something to keep in mind.

1 vote is not dangerous at all; however, because then it would require both scum to hop on that wagon, which would mean an insta-town-win.

[Crazy]

The only difference, if we lynch the goon today, then we have 2 more lynches left in the game. If we lynch the godfather, then we will have insta-winned. Lynching scum > Vigging scum.

Though for scum, this probably still isn't ideal, because they can't win anymore by town vigging town.

(Yes, I find this setup interesting)

[Crazy]

Do the scum auto lose if the GF is vig'ed? is says if he is ever killed, but nothing about being vig'ed.

Only if the GF is lynched.

[Crazy]

Well i just felt it was a dangerous spot to be in, because i normally don't pay attention to votecounts in the RVS, and just vote whoever i feel like it when i look at the player list. So if any one else plays the way i do, popular may have been lynched in the first couple post.

Okay. I can buy this.

Unvote.

Crazy, Artem and Slicey, what do you think of my vote?

Your vote was fine, though I do think L-1 can be dangerous in this game.

[Crazy]

Okay, fair point. I'm not arguing that it's in the scum's best interests to quick-hammer, just saying that it's not entirely out of the question.

[Crazy]

Crazy, Artem and Slicey, what are the exact reasons for your agreement with my vote?

Being paranoid about L-1 and unvoting because of it is often scummy behavior... though I don't think that's the case in this game particularly.

[Crazy]

1. How experienced would you consider?

Me? I've been playing since May, so I guess I'm fairly experienced...

2. How do you scumhunt?

Hmm, I'm not really as pro-active as I should be... I'll basically just question people when I find something that looks suspicious.

[Crazy]

Crazy, Artem and Slicey, what are the exact reasons for your agreement with my vote?

Being paranoid about L-1 and unvoting because of it is often scummy behavior... though I don't think that's the case in this game particularly.

Can you elaborate on this... don't think i am getting what you are trying to say or something.

I've often considered when people are paranoid about L-1/L-2 during the random stage, especially in a small setup, to be a scum-tell.

2 votes are a serious wagon here, so I'm against throwing them around carelessly

However, I think this setup is an exception.

[Crazy]

Artem do you really think your vote on afatchic is justified?

I know this isn't my question, but not much has really happened except the Artem/afatchic thing.

I think afatchic's POV makes sense here; since he didn't check the votecount, it makes sense that he'd be worried about someone being quickhammered, since it's something that could potentially happen if somebody didn't check the votes.

What is notable, though, is that Artem commented on afatchic's vote but didn't vote him until Tajo brought it up.

[Crazy]

Huh? My comment was in post 26, my vote was in post 27.

I meant your comment in Post 14.

[Crazy]

But I didn't vote him because he put somebody at L-1. I voted him because he's concerned with accidentally quicklynching somebody but didn't pay attention to the votecount. Both facts have been revealed in post 19.

Yeah, you're right. Nevermind.

Umm, I am curious why you unvoted, though. What in particular did afatchic say that made you change your mind about him?

[Crazy]

Because there was nothing particularly scummy about his response, and because you and Tajo became more interesting with your "It's worthy to note...". It's almost like you're hinting at something I've done being suspicious, without explicitly stating that it is. The fact that you haven't said why something is interesting or noteworthy worries me.

Casting suspicion is sorta the point of the game. By "notable" I mean it's somewhat suspicious, but not enough for a vote, okay?

And I was wrong about that anyway, because I misunderstood the reasons for your vote.

But about this:

Because there was nothing particularly scummy about his response

You don't unvote someone because their response wasn't scummy, only if it made you understand his point of view and now you can see how he could have made that vote. If his opinion hasn't changed, and he hasn't clarified anything for you, I don't understand why you unvoted him.

As for Slicey, a prod would probably be more effective than a vote. Rarely do people ever not post for 6 days on purpose.

Mod: Prod Slicey please

[Crazy]

That's not how I play. The reason I vote and ask questions is to get a better read on a player from their responses. It was pretty obvious how afatchic could be not paying attention to the votecount and be concerned with a quicklynch at the same time. So no, his response didn't clarify anything for me that wasn't clear already. I wanted to see how he would answer my questions. His responses are coming off as slightly frustrated with my inability to understand his point of view. I'm reading that as town.

So you never found afatchic suspicious at all from the start?

You'd be surprised. Until a mod officially states that Slicey is to be replaced, my vote stays.

Well, I think it's more appropriate to see if they haven't forgotten about the thread first. Lurking that much to stay under the radar is just bad sportsmanship.

[Crazy]

Hello...I will catch up ASAP. I think I have played with all of you before even if some of it was brief.

Yes, I remember you.

Of course I was. That's why I pressured him.

A. I understand that a townie may be concerned about a quicklynch but pays no attention to the votecount.
B. Player X is concerned about a quicklynch but pays no attention to the votecount.

(A & B) does not imply that Player X is a townie.

Okay, so those two points together imply suspicion. After you questioned afatchic, both of those points are still correct, yes? Just because his defense was not scummy doesn't mean the original thing was not scummy!

On a side note, what is 100% obvious in a mislynch is that scum ARE on the wagon. If we do mislynch today then I think the smartest move to make is for the vig to kill from the people on the wagon. There is at worst a 1 in 3 chance to hit scum but a potential 100% (if both scum are on the wagon) chance to hit town if we vig kill someone not on the wagon.

Yeah, I'll point to Artem's probabilities here.

[Crazy]

@Crazy: The original thing gave him scummy points. His response to my questions gave him townie points, that at the time I felt outweighed the original scumminess.

The point of defense is to turn scumpoints into nullpoints, by explaining the logic behind whatever that person did. Since afatchic's viewpoint has absolutely not changed, I don't even see how that can cover your original case on him. (Btw, I never agreed with it in the first place; your unvote just seemed suspicious.)

Well, first process of elimination. I know i'm town, and populartajo seems pro-town. Not sure about the rest. out of them Crazy seems the scummiest IMO. He hasn't contributed much in any type of scum hunting, and has just laid out baseless opinions in all of his posts until his most recent ones questioning Artem about the unvote on me. He seems to be hesitant with his vote, which i never view as pro-town. I think votes should be put out there, to either pressure or push for a lynch. Having it on anyone is better then not voting, IMO, as it at least places some pressure on someone.

Okay, you had never explained that your vote on me was anything more than a random vote. So how did you expect me to feel the force from your magical pressure wand if you never explained it? I'm sorry, but a single random vote on me doesn't make me crack from the incredible pressure. Random votes are good for getting the game started, but after a while, a sitting random vote is the same as a non-vote.

And if you didn't get it, I am questioning Artem because I find him suspicious. If that's not scum-hunting, I don't know what is.

Also, I am shocked to find the person that was worried about accidental quick-hammers earlier now getting on peoples cases for not having a vote out.

But really, what I find most suspicious is your sudden defense of Tajo. All he has done in this game is voted you, unvoted you, and then hasn't posted any real content for a while. That's so pro-town?

Also, could you please explain why you are now saying you'll vig Juls if you're lynched? All I see there is a big pile of OMGUS.

[Crazy]

So you just assumed i left it there for no reason?

Well, yeah, I can't say that I have my vote on Tajo for any specific reason.

And up until his lurking of late, yeah i would say populartajo has been protown.

Well, to be honest, I think Artem, me, and now Juls have done more scum-hunting than Tajo has.

And about vigging Juls- comes of scummy, and frankly i just don't like her. i have played a couple days with her in another game, didn't like her there, played a few days with her here, don't like her here. so its a mixture between thinking she's scum, and just can't stand her...

I don't really care if you don't like her; that shouldn't interfere with how you view her as scum or town.

Yet, you've really given no reason why you think she's scummy...?

[Crazy]

Based on the events since my last post, I'm inclined to think Tajo is the GF and afatchic is the goon.

Vote: tajo (L-1)

Crazy, if your vote is still random, you may want to reconsider it.

Okay, I agree with your case on afatchic you laid out... but I find you voting Tajo based on it complete bogus. I see your logic, yeah, and I had thought the same exact thing, but I

really

don't think we should be lynching someone based on what someone else said. We don't know afatchic's alignment (yet), and even if we did know he was scum, then we still wouldn't be positive that he just wasn't buddying up to a townie.

Afatchic is by far the scummiest player now, but I'm not going to assume that he's scum and lynch

Tajo

because I think he's scum! Even if he was the goon, we get two more lynches left in the game!

[Crazy]

@Crazy: I agree with afatchic being the scummiest player, but I want to turn every stone before a lynch. At the moment, Tajo is the least active player. In my experience, laying low is a GF-tell. (Yes, I see the V/LA until the 20th in his sig, but he needs to either post or request a replacement.)

Woah, but you didn't say that, did you? You voted Tajo after you laid out a case against afatchic!

[Crazy]

Also, I'm not ready to lynch Tajo yet. If you're not comfortable with him being at L-1, feel free to remove your random vote from him, but I really doubt afatchic or Juls will hammer at this point.

It doesn't bother me much now; my only concern was that scum might do it at the beginning of the game, get vigged, and then we'd have no information on Day 2.

But now... I bet it would help us more than them if they quicklynched (assuming Tajo is town, of course).

Oh, for crying out loud:

It also bugs me that Slicey doesn't post. In my experience, lurkers tend be the godfather.

I didn't say your suspicion of Tajo was inconsistent... but when you voted him you didn't say that you were doing that because he was a lurker... in fact, you voted him after making a case on afatchic!

[Crazy]

I didn't say I voted him because he was a lurker. I said I suspect him and afatchic as the scum pair with Tajo being the GF (I suspect Tajo being the GF because of the lurking). Wouldn't you agree that it makes sense to vote for somebody you suspect is the GF, because if you're right, it's an insta-win?

I feel like I'm being told to "show your work" in a math class. :/

If you said you voted Tajo because he was a lurker, I'd feel much better about you. Rather, you voted Tajo after making a case on

afatchic

, which made me believe that you voted Tajo because of afatchic's link to him. (the buddying).

That

is scummy.

[Crazy]

Crazy is reaching a bit with his arguments on you

You don't find it scummy if someone votes someone based completely on the relations of someone else with that person? Artem has claimed that wasn't his only reasoning, but you can see how my mind saw that, right?

I really want to hear from tajo at this point.

Second that... I don't want to lynch anybody without Tajo checking in again. Now if you check his posts, he hasn't posted on site for 2 days, yet between his last post here and him disappearing... he had 20 posts elsewhere on site.

So essentially it's a combination of lurking and V/LA.

[Crazy]

...but I wasn't sure if I wanted Crazy to know that I suspect him before Tajo posted (because if Tajo and Crazy are both scum, Crazy is parking an L-1 non-justified vote on his partner, which is a dangerous thing to do, so Tajo's reactions would have been good to see). So I saved this into my notes instead. Crazy's behavior just doesn't match up with his "suspicions".

Despite me not moving my vote around... I'm sure that I've been 100% clear with my suspicions. If I understand right, the only reason that scum don't like to vote is so they don't have to take a stand, but when it's clear where I stand, I don't see how that's scummy on my part

Also, I really doubt anybody is going to hammer Tajo right now:

-Juls has just stated that she wants to wait until Tajo checks in before a hammer.
-Afatchic thinks that Tajo is the most pro-town person around.

[Crazy]

Okay, let me get it straight then.

I am suspicious of you and afatchic. The only reason I'm not pressuring afatchic right now is because currently

he's not posting!

When he comes back, I'll pressure him. He

is

my top suspect.

I've made two cases against you, and I never retracted either of them. If you voted Tajo because he was lurking and

only

because of that, that's fine... but you could easily be lying about that.

My earlier case was when you retracted your vote on afatchic. This made absolutely no sense to me, because afatchic had never posted any new information in the time he defended himself. Same opinion before; same opinion after, so

your

opinion of him shouldn't have changed.

Now this is the first time I really put those two together like that, but it's excellent the way it worked out, because

both

of them point to a you-and-afatchic scum-team!

Now do I need to vote one of you to make that clear? Does it really matter?

[Crazy]

if you are suspicious of Artem and afatchic why is your vote on tajo, putting him at L-1?

'Cuz I haven't bothered to change it. But my point is it's not scummy since it's quite obvious what my opinions are anyway.

[Crazy]

Ugh, sorry, I think I was just holding my vote on Tajo to prove a point here. I will maintain that it's not scummy for the reasons I mentioned, but there really is no point in me keeping it there, as town or scum...

Unvote, Vote afatchic

(L-1)

If Tajo or Artem hammers, then they're obvscum, so I don't have a problem with that.

[Crazy]

Ugh, sorry, I think I was just holding my vote on Tajo to prove a point here. I will maintain that it's not scummy for the reasons I mentioned, but there really is no point in me keeping it there, as town or scum...

Unvote, Vote afatchic

(L-1)

If Tajo or Artem hammers, then they're obvscum, so I don't have a problem with that.

Any sort of a case against me?

Also the whole baffling about how me/artem are a scum team, yet putting/leaving 'tajo at L-1 pretty much confirms my vote on you.

1. You accuse me of not using my vote, yet you're the one that's always feeling paranoid when someone's at L-1. Tajo wasn't going to be quick-hammered, obviously, which is why I didn't care about my vote on him. I still don't see how that's scummy.

2. Your pro-town view on Tajo is so far-fetched that I think it's either scum buddying up to his partner, or to a townie, especially since Tajo is currently in last place in terms of "scum-hunting."

3. You said you'd vig Juls if you died in Post 84. That was completely unfounded OMGUS. When asked, you said part of it was just a grudge from a

past game

?

[Crazy]

Okay so lets all pretend i get hammered, and i'm a vig. who would you want me to vig?

I don't think that's a really good question to ask... since if you're town, half the other people are scum, so really you should go off your own opinion. As long as you don't do something stupid like vig Juls because you don't like her (you need a real reason), your guess is as good as mine.

[Crazy]

You're leaving one important detail out of the equation. afatchic could be scum.

If he's scum, he won't be quickhammered. Hence, the quickhammerer will always be scum.

Why do you need to assume that Tajo is town for this statement? If somebody hammered and Tajo flipped scum, that too would help "us" more than "them". (Assuming "us" is town and "them" is scum.)

Okay, well, since lynching scum is pretty much the #1 goal for today, I don't see how somebody quick-hammering scum could be a bad thing. Hence, I thought it would go unsaid that if Tajo flipped scum, that would be good. So the only thing I really had to state was how it would be if he flipped town (and killed obvscum quicklyncher.)

[Crazy]

2b)Crazy started good but somehow has become unreadable to me. Do you sincerelly support afatchic's case? What do you think of Juls?

The fact that both Crazy and Artem both support(ed) afathic case is strange enough to think about a remote possiblity about them being the scumpair taking advantage of Juls making the case for them...,, Artem and Crazy could you specify your position against or pro afatchic?

I think afatchic is scum. The newbtown thing is ridiculous, because I

have

seen afatchic play well before... (Open 106, Open 95). Afatchic has a higher post count than I have, so I wouldn't call him a newb.

You think me and Artem are a scum-team? I thought Artem said that he thought afatchic was newbtown...

I don't see the case on Juls, really... I don't see why the vote/unvote quick like that is scummy (weird, yes... scummy, why?), and her case on afatchic seems fine to me.

[Crazy]

I said my case in Post 119:

http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... &start=119

I don't see how "poor play" can make someone town. How do we know he isn't scum using WIFOM by buddying up to you, trying to confirm you as town (or scum)?

[Crazy]

Okay.

Okay.

Doesnt seem fine to me.

You said Juls was exaggerating the case against an easy target. Afatchic

is

an easy target (doesn't make him town), but could you please explain the "exaggeration" there?

[Crazy]

I'd normally agree with you; something similar happened with me in Lovers' Multiball.

However, I'd hardly say WIFOM that obvious was part of a "master plan." Saying "I'll vig Juls if I'm lynched right now" could certainly be done by poor scum.

[Crazy]

I have a few comments about your Juls case but I'll wait 'til Juls responds first.

"Ill vig anyone you choose" could?

I don't understand this.

I'm not convinced that afatchic must either be stupid-town or crafty-scum. What is it exactly that afatchic did that would be impossible for him to do as scum unless he was really crafty. I do enjoy these WIFOMy arguments (I became confirmed town in Open 86 due to something similar, as I already mentioned), but what is it in particular?

[Crazy]

My entire point is that afatchic could be town playing poorly. I read him as town and you are free to disagree. But you and Juls seem to discount that possibility for reasons I cant understand. See the difference with Artem?

I'm not discounting afatchic being town... but if you think he is, I want to hear your argument.

From what I understand, you basically said that afatchic was either poor-town or crafty-scum, yes? Well, what in particular did he do that would only be possible as scum if it was part of a brilliant scheme?

[Crazy]

1) Afatchic is prob obv noob townie. From his posts, we know this guy isnt very experienced. Calling someone protown (me) with such conviction, in my experience, is way more probable in newbie townie than in newbie scum.

That could be basic WIFOMing. You don't need to be a master mafia player to buddy up.

Also, she is asking us for deciding his target if he is lynched, more probable again in panicking townie about to be lynched rather than experienced scum trying to appear townie.

I don't find that completely unreasonable at all... considering he might have just been trying to ask our opinions.

Finally, threatening Juls with her death is something very interesting. Normally I would have expected afatchicscum to defend himself knowing that half of the town wants him dead, not threatening someone else with her death.

Most townies would defend themself rather than a death threat as well, yes?

Of course I could be wrong, and afatchic could be tricking me well, but I really think afatchic fits more the newbie town player than the calculating scum role.

So, I just don't see why those are the only two options. Someone of afatchic's caliber could easily have done what he did as scum.

[Crazy]

Actually, to make it easier, can everybody say who they would like to see lynched and if that person flips town, who they would like to see vigged. In other words, which two people do you want to see cardflipped the most?

For me, Tajo lynched if Tajo flips town, Crazy vigged.

My preference would actually be (assuming the person lynched is town, of course):

-If Tajo's lynched, vig Artem.
(Artem/afatchic)
(Artem/Juls)
(Juls/afatchic)

-If Artem's lynched, vig Tajo.
(Tajo/afatchic)
(Tajo/Juls)
(Juls/afatchic)

-If afatchic's lynched, vig Artem.
(Artem/Juls)
(Artem/Tajo)
(Tajo/Juls)

-If Juls' lynched, vig afatchic.
(Artem/afatchic)
(Tajo/afatchic)
(Artem/Tajo)

The pairs in parentheses are the possible scum-teams if the lynchee is town, (from my POV, since I know I'm town, of course) listed in order from what I think is the most likely scumteam to the least likely scumteam. The person I want vigged if X is lynched is the one that's in both top scumpairs, if X is town.

If the question is just who I want to lynch, it's Artem or afatchic.

Am I the only one that thinks that her attacks for not reading the wiki are not an exaggeration?

I reread Juls' post... and you are really twisting her words there, don'tya think? Her case was that afatchic was playing ignorant (again, he doesn't need to be brilliant to pull it off, feigning ignorance about the setup to appear town is fairly common) Juls was not attacking afatchic for not reading the wiki; that's just ridiculous.

[Crazy]

I don't have time to post now, but I will later. My last post made me want to analyze further all possible scum-pairs.

[Crazy]

Unvote

Okay, I'm not going as in-depth as I thought I would, but whatever. And obviously my opinions have changed slightly since my last real post. From least likely scumteam to most likely, IMO:

I don't think Juls and afatchic are scum together, because it would mean that they were both bussing each other on Page 4.. and whether afatchic is scum or town, I think his emotional appeal "I'll vig Juls if I'm lynched, etc." was real (I've never seen scum fake something so ridiculous) which means I'm doubting a Juls/afatchic scumteam.

Juls and Tajo also requires a double-bus. And since Tajo has been so dead-on tunneled on Juls, and Juls put Tajo at L-1, it's still hard to see it.

Earlier I was thinking that Tajo/Artem was a strong possibility, mainly due to Artem's urging to take Tajo off L-1 (LOL!), but with the recent battle between those two, that possibility is much lesser now.

afatchic/Artem is still a strong possibility in my mind. Artem's unvote off afatchic early Day 1 still sticks out, as well as voting Tajo after making a case on afatchic. I've said all this before.

afatchic/Tajo is one of the most obvious conclusions to come to out there... due to afatchic's ridiculous buddying earlier today, as well as Tajo's refusal to see him as scum. I'm just worried that this scumteam is

too

obvious.

Artem/Juls is currently my top pick. I'm at school right now, though, and the bell just rang, so I gotta go. I'll explain later, bye!

[Crazy]

I think that Crazy was over-pushy in two situations:
-My unvote for afatchic. Even though I've explained over and over that I unvoted because I got a townie read from his responses;
-His idea that I built a case on afatchic but voted Tajo instead, even though the real reason for the vote came from:

For the first one, I explained why I thought that was bull-crap. You accused afatchic for a certain reason. After he explained, that reason still didn't change. The point of a defense is not to give out townie points, but it's to clear your name of what you originally did. The same facts were true before his "defense," and the same facts were true after.

-His idea that I built a case on afatchic but voted Tajo instead, even though the real reason for the vote came from:

You voted Tajo for "the events that have happened since my last post." Why would you think I would assume that to mean "because Tajo has continued to lurk" instead of "since what afatchic said about Tajo." Someone lurking is not an "event," you know.

Why should I vote for who I think is the goon rather than who I think is the GF?

Because, as I understood your original case, you based your vote on Tajo completely on afatchic's buddying up to him. (Maybe that's not true, but you could see how I could interpret it my way.)

Look, Artem, I'm not saying my case on you is perfect, but I don't think it's as scummy or "far-reaching" as you say. What you're really doing is attacking me for scum-hunting. Should I just hold my opinions until I get a perfect, "X is obvscum" case?

[Crazy]

Oh yeah, I forgot I was supposed to say why Artem/Juls were the scumteam. I will later, though.

My other top picks are in my last post, there.

[Crazy]

Hi, I was just out of town for the past 2 days and just got back now; I forgot to indicate V/LA. I'll check on all my stuff tomorrow.

[Crazy]

I suspect everyone that jumped against afatchic. I assume one scum was aggressive (Juls) and the other is trying to be subtle. Thats why its hard to decide between you and Crazy. There is some subtle defending of Juls in some posts. Im not too sure about that arguments that have been far-reaching. Could you point me to them?

I'm subtle? I'm actually more assertive here than I am in most of my games. I don't think Artem is really subtle either.

I still think Crazy is trying to appear townie like he would in a non-vengeful game.

Umm, yeah. Trying to appear like scum usually doesn't help you regardless of alignment. (And yes, finding scum is a higher priority, of course, but who says you can't do both?

What happened to afatchic?

He's there... I see both him/you and him/Artem as likely scumpairs. Him/Juls is not, for obvious reasons. Just because I think Artem/Juls make a really likely scumpair doesn't make them my top suspects (Juls in particular, since tbh it's hard to see her as scum with anybody

but

Artem.)

Can afatchic be town playing poorly? Sure...but of the people in this game I think he is the most scummy. Why can't you open your eyes up to that instead of having me bend to your will? I put forth a lot of effort to try to show you where I am coming from and all I see from you is excuses for him. And being that I think you are the other scum, why would I trust your instincts on afatchic?

I see your case on afatchic. But why the vote on Tajo? That's what's not making sense to me.


Oh, and an Artem/Juls scumpair is actually looking less likely now than it was before. The association between them is very high (both suspect Tajo and either me/afatchic as the other person, right?), but if I remember correctly, neither of them really have the

scum

-tells that set them off. (Townies often show links between each other.

Really, this just occurred to me because of Artem's early post here; and the rest just kind of followed in when I realized that both of them seem to think the other is town.

Because there was nothing particularly scummy about his response, and because you and Tajo became more interesting with your "It's worthy to note...". It's almost like you're hinting at something I've done being suspicious, without explicitly stating that it is. The fact that you haven't said why something is interesting or noteworthy worries me.

It also bugs me that Slicey doesn't post. In my experience, lurkers tend be the godfather.

Unvote; Vote: Silcey to get him participating.

You'll see I commented on this as soon as he posted it. What bothers me is that Artem thinks a vote is going to be more effective than a prod. When Slicey was replaced, he unvoted. Well,

why not just ask for a prod?

Did you really think that Slicey was purposely lurking

that

much?

It just looked like a pathetic distancing attempt to me... but well, I could be wrong. *shrug*

I should reread the thread more...

[Crazy]

@Crazy: I'm having a hard time understanding your distancing/strong connection argument.

Also, Crazy, if you were to be lynched right this second, who would you viggie?

Your vote on Slicey was crap. Why didn't you just ask for a prod?

The other thing is, both you and Juls seem to have each other pegged as town... which is something I just can't understand.

As for who I would vig, the person who quicklynched me obv. But seriously, I don't know at this point... though I'd probably be leaning on you, because you're the only person I can really see as scum with

anybody

else.

About Crazy. I have played games with him and I know I should be careful with him if scum. As town he is helpful but until now I cant feel that I could call him obv town or slightly town. His attacks to afatchic didnt help and Im willing to hear more from him.

Oh, Tajo, my scum-meta is absolutely horrible. I've only won as scum twice, and neither of those I came even close to deserving. (But thanks anyway, though I'm not sure when you ever saw me as scum.)

Just for you all know here are the current possibilities I have in mind. We are starting with the premise that I know Im town and that there are big probs that afatchic is town, too.

1. Juls is scum. Still deciding weather Crazy or Artem is the other pair. Im leaning to this prob right now.

2. Juls isnt scum, just hyper agressive townie. Crazy and Artem are using her as a way to get afatchic lynched. Afatchic vigs Juls. GG. Remote possibility but still possible.

Can you ALL show your current possibilities?

You're

that

sure that afatchic is town?

[Crazy]

Yeah, I didn't see that as anything remarkable. What makes you think that has to come from town?

[Crazy]

Why would scum ask us something like that?
It only makes sense from a townie point of view wanting to increase the odds for his team or from a really calculating scum that could predict my reaction to it. Knowing afatchic, you already know what possibility Im discarding.

I want to love your reasoning on your defense of afatchic, Tajo, because that's just the type of stuff I love about mafia, but I can't. Logic like that only applies if what the subject did is generally considered

scummy

. Talking about your vig target would generally be considered neutral or slightly pro-town, and looking pro-town is something

every

scum tries to do, so I don't see why you're placing afatchic as not capable of doing that.

[Crazy]

Im really having a hard time imagining afatchic doing that to "look" pro-town.
Lets play a little game.
What do you think is more probable?
a) Afatchic is town and asks us for a vig-target so he can maximize his odds of winning by asking others' opinions.
b) Afatchic is scum and instead of trying a defense he asks us for a vig-target to try to "look" protown.
...............................
Dont get me wrong. Afatchic could have done that as scum. The odds are low, though. Do you disagree?

Yes, I do. That's not tough WIFOM there, that's not a gambit, it's a simple do-this-because-it's-what-you-would-do-if-you-were-town. People can grasp something that simple in their first newbie game. If you're scum, try to look like town. You insisting afatchic is town based on that is completely ridiculous!

[Crazy]

So you think he is scum?

My point isn't to attack him. My point is to prove that your "townpoints" on him are
just loaded WIFOM. That doesn't count against him; that counts against

you

.

Crazy has a trend of backing off arguments when pushed a little. In Post 51 he starts down a line of questioning with Artem then in post 55 he changes his mind and stops. Another instance is when in Post 117 he changes his vote to afatchic after Artem and I pressure him for having it on tajo and keeping him at L-1. Somewhat akin to that is when he says he thinks Artem and I are a scumteam in Post 183 and then never really goes anywhere with it. It seems as if he may have been testing the water a bit to see if anyone would bite.

In post 55 I clarified a misunderstanding... what's wrong with that?

Before Post 117 I was just being stubborn... there was no real point in me keeping my vote on Tajo then.

I clarified why I think you/Artem could be a scumteam a little later... probably not as much as I would have liked... but certainly you can see that you both seem to agree on

everything.

And hello Empking.

[Crazy]

Replying to stuff as I'm reading along... my opinion could certainly change by the time I'm finished with this post:

So you think he is town or scum? Please specify.
About me, why posting in thread that I think someone is town counts against me? We disagree in our points of view, anything else?

Afatchic is probably about 65-70% likely to be scum in my eyes. You're in that range too; Artem's a little higher; Juls is a little lower. Keep in mind that in just brute scumminess, afatchic places 1st, but Artem is the only one that could really be scum with

anybody

here.

Posting that you think he's town doesn't make you scummier, but posting it with incorrect logic does.

If you want to see what I don't like about how you defend afatchic, I'm sure it's in my previous posts.


Oh, wow, Empking's analysis. I'll take it one by one:

Artem: Artem appears to be solidly contributing in a pro-town manner and I don't think he's lurked yet. I don't fremember him comitting a scum tell.

This part is pure gut but then I suppose it's okay.

Juls: She's seems to be contributing well but her OMGUS-like behaviour and distracting the town by talking about another unrelated game is scummy.

You know

afatchic

brought that up, right? Although I see the OMGUS part, but only if you're talking about Tajo, not about afatchic.

Pop: Pop seems to be going a way that at first glance only makes sense if he's town (from my point of view), that bit of WIFOM doesn't take away the scummy thing he's done.

Buddying is fairly common, you know.

Crazy: I have read the whole game just a couple of minutes ago and I don't remember a single thing he's done save say hello to me. It looks like he's flying under the radar in a scum-like manner.

Lolwut? Out of all the things that I've done that you could accuse me of, you pick

THAT?!

Seriously, I've been in at least two games with you as town in which I lurked more than I have here! (Open 94, Open 107)

Because in Vengeful, it's just as important to be town-hunting as it is scum-hunting and I feel that I found one of the other townies.

By the way, a question for Tajo, Empking and Crazy: what do you think of me and Juls as a pair? Are we scum together, townies together, or of the opposite alignment?

(I think Crazy views us as a scum pair, not sure about the other two.)

I'm not dead set on a scum-pair... but the interactions between you two just seem very fishy.

Crazy and you know how I play as town. Damn, this game shouldnt be that hard.

Stop it. Defending people is fine; I often do it. It's

how

you're doing it!

I think you or Crazy are most likely to be scum and I think I might be overestimating the scum tell on Crazy.

Umm, yeah, I think you are. Seriously, nobody here is "under-the-radar." It's really hard to be in a 5-player game.

Here's one very simple reason why I think Juls is town: she's done more scumhunting than the three of you (tajo, afatchic and Crazy) combined. I like her posts 198 and 230. I too originally thought that afatchic was a townie player playing poorly, but those posts really make me wonder and lean to afatchic/Crazy pairing. Which would make you (Tajo) town and which is why I'm making this post now.

Although the rest of this post is awesome... bits of exaggerated buddying like this really make me wary of you, Artem.

Btw, I'm not ready for a lynch yet. I'm having an incredibly difficult time with all this intense buddying coming from, well, all of you (not Empking, but his predecessor afatchic). This doesn't mean I'm completely neutral... but this is a tough decision that needs to be elaborated more.

[Crazy]

85% - afatchic/Empking
51% - tajo
40% - Crazy
1% - Artem
0% - Juls

Lol, that adds up to 177%. It needs to add up to 200%.

But seriously,

1% on Artem?

You don't think an Artem/Empking pair has any merit? What about an Artem/Tajo?

Crazy: What else could I have accused you of?

Nothing, preferably. But people seem to be accusing me of "reaching." I think that's bogus, but definitely not as bogus as you accusing me of flying UTR.

Crazy, so you think my defense of afatchic is illogical. As illogical as my EMpking's defense in the other game we played together with farside?

Open 94? I don't recall Empking defending anyone... but even if he did, I hold you to a higher standard of logic than Empking.

@Crazy:
You said that my vote/unvote on Slicey could be seen as distancing. I think the same argument can be made for afatchic's vote on you. As far as I can tell, he never really explained his vote on you other than:

Well, afatchic at least put out

something

. Why didn't you just ask for a prod for Slicey?

So you decided that he's scum and now trying to come up with things to accuse him of? Seems a little backwards to me.

XD

No. I've accused him of something because Crazy thinks he committed some scum tells I haven't noticed.

You accused me of "flying under the radar," which is just the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard. My comment meant that basically any other thing you could accuse me of would have more merit than

that!

I do not like the case that Artem/Juls/Tajo has on me based on reaching/whatever, but at least that makes a whole lot more sense than the crap you're putting out.

[Crazy]

I'm starting to wonder if all of you are scum... XD

Juls is probably the most pro-town overall of all of you, but her vote on Tajo in her post #20 is what's sticking out as a sore scum-thumb. (And of course, buddying up to Artem)

afatchic/Empking both clearly have no idea what they're doing. Their actions are so ridiculously scummy that they almost appear pro-town. (note: almost) Afatchic's insisting that Tajo was town under absolutely no evidence, for example, as well as Empking's case on me for "flying under the radar."

Tajo is all too tunnel-visioned for me. He apparently thinks Juls is obvscum, and that afatchic is obvtown. I've said why I don't like his argument about afatchic, and the argument that Juls is scum isn't much better. If anybody here is

reaching

, it's Tajo.

Artem is all fine on first glance, but is the only one that could possibly be scum with all three of the others. If Artem is scum, the person that's most likely

not

his partner would probably be me! I believe I've explained all these links... I'll admit that none of them are particularly strong, which is why I don't have him pegged as obvscum.

[Crazy]

Crazy: I have read the whole game just a couple of minutes ago and I don't remember a single thing he's done save say hello to me. It looks like he's flying under the radar in a scum-like manner.

[Crazy]

But Empking also strikes me as town. He wouldnt have revived this thread asking for his innocence if he were scum.

Looking at that thread again (best game ever, btw), indeed you did.

Empking in the other hand is scummy as hell but as I thought, hes just one of those weird townies that cant lose a fight.
Just trust me in this one.

[quote="Tajo", Open 94"]
I still dont know if Empking is scum or just one of those dumb townies who cant lose a fight. [/quote]
This still seems different to me, though. I can definitely see how being stubborn is a town-tell, but asking for a vig target? Meh.

[Crazy]

*sigh* Maybe not. But the thing is, afatchic usually does play better than he did here. Empking does not. And I still don't see for the life of me how asking for a vig target is anything but a null-tell. It's really not that hard of a thing to pull off.

[Crazy]

This game is losing me. Not much has changed about my opinion of the players and I doubt there will be anything drastic enough happening in the remainder of Day 1. I'm fine with a lynch of Empking, Crazy and, to a lesser extent, Tajo. So, as soon as Crazy decides he's ready for a lynch, I say we go ahead and move on.

*sigh* I guess. Really, the chance of a scum win Day 1 isn't that high. We do have information; I just really can't tell who's scum.

About your logic on afatchic/Empking, Tajo; it sucks... and you can't really convince me otherwise. I just don't know if you actually believe it, because I know I've seen better from you in the past.

What's with the unvote, Tajo?

(Btw, Artem/Juls isn't my top thing anymore. It's rare that I see people that buddy so hard up to each other to be scum. One of them is simply buddying up to a townie, and whichever one is the townie is just buying into it.) For the same reason, I'm doubting Tajo/Empking. That leaves Artem/Tajo and Empking/Artem. Juls is prob town.

What's the case on me, anyway, especially as for being a GF?

Everyone

here is suspicious of me and the first thing you think of is GF?!!! Why doesn't "goon" come to your mind first, if I'm scum at all?

[Crazy]

Juls is not being subtle about being scum. That indicates she is the goon.
Really? So of Juls/Artem do you think Artem is the more likely scum?

Juls made a

very

OMGUS-y vote on you at one point, and you've been bussing her extremely hard. I'd be shocked if you two were scum together.

Juls and afatchic is similar; it would require a great deal of distancing for them to be scum together.

Artem was the only other person I could see Juls scum with. I haven't ruled her out, but the links between them weren't necessarily

scummy

in the first place, and the buddying between them just seems to dang strong to be between two scum. (Yes, that's WIFOM, but I use it anyway.)

If you're judging people individually, then yes, Juls is scummier than Artem.

[Crazy]

You know, I could go for an Empking/afatchic lynch. Individually, there's nobody that's even close to him. Afatchic's buddying to Tajo is even worse than vice versa, since at least Tajo backed his up with "evidence." And I hate to make this sound OMGUS-y, but his case on me for "flying under the radar" is just horrible. Yes, I know Empking is hardly renowned for his great scum-hunting, but usually his cases are based off of something that's actually

true

, no matter how pointless it is. (His big case on farside in Open 94 was stupid, but was based on stuff that was actually said, at least.)

Juls, I know you think he's scum.
Tajo, I know you think he's town.

Artem, you said you'd be fine with a lynch of either me or Empking. Well, he was pushing hard against me anyway, so even if he's town, I'm dead. Either way, you get your wish. (Kidding though, I really wish he wouldn't vig me if he turned up town, since I do know that would be a loss.)

Vote: Empking

Enough stuff has been said today. And yes, he could be what you call an "easy target," but that doesn't mean anything regarding his alignment, right?

[Crazy]

Ugh, I just realized that the person that's likely to hammer is the person that would be most likely to be Empking's partner.

Well, I suppose Empking/Tajo

is

still a possibility... but just about the only scummy thing about Tajo is his link with afatchic. *sigh*

It could be Artem/Tajo. The things that stand out most about that pair are Tajo's remaining neutral between me and Artem for so long (and of course, when he finally decides, he picks me )... and I mentioned the other part earlier:

Crazy, if your vote is still random, you may want to reconsider it.

Also, I'm not ready to lynch Tajo yet. If you're not comfortable with him being at L-1, feel free to remove your random vote from him, but I really doubt afatchic or Juls will hammer at this point.

Voting someone but then wanting someone else to get off the wagon just makes it look like you didn't want that person at L-1 to begin with.

Empking, if you

are

town (assuming Artem hammers you), then I would strongly suggest vigging Artem or Tajo, preferably Artem because Artem/Juls is more likely than Tajo/Juls.

[Crazy]

Artem, you said you'd be fine with a lynch of either me or Empking. Well, he was pushing hard against me anyway, so even if he's town, I'm dead. Either way, you get your wish. Smile (Kidding though, I really wish he wouldn't vig me if he turned up town, since I do know that would be a loss.)

Or you could be trying to save your hind, because Tajo put you at L-1 yesterday.

Yeah, for 3 seconds.

But besides, why shouldn't I be interested in not dying? If I'm lynched, the best that can happen is a 2:1 endgame; or it could be a loss if I vig the wrong person, which could certainly be possible.

Do you really think I'm more likely scum than afatchic/Empking? What could you possibly be basing that on?

[Crazy]

Meh, I still don't agree with your logic on afatchic, Tajo.

That was fun, though... I always find these micro-games enjoyable... and I think Juls and I put forth a good effort. But good job Tajo/Artem for catching us.

[Crazy]

I don't mind you posting the QT, Plum.

[Crazy]

Wow, I thought if I did an early hammer like that then I would just be pegged as obvscum.