Mini 698 - Georgetown Mafia - Game over

[Corvuus]

ok, i just don't have time.

so i don't know if this is how to do it but:

Mod: vote deadline extension

I think just a few days (at most a week) would be very helpful.

If I check in later and the deadline extension isn't possible at all, then I will be voting to lynch.

Corv

[Jazzmyn]

I, too, support the request for a deadline extension.

Regards,
Jazz

[Huntress]

Vote Count

Qwints 2 - (Apothecary, MacavityLock)
MacavityLock 1 - (LLamaFluff)
LLamaFluff 2 - (Elmo, Qwints)

Not voting 2 - (Corvuus, Jazzmyn)

With seven players alive, it takes four votes to lynch.

Deadline is extended to

Saturday 28th February 11.00 am GMT.

[LlamaFluff]

Somewhat drunken post but who really hares.

Well for the whole qeints doctor claim, wow. I thoguth that a doctor claim was a stupid one that would get a really quick lynch bur for some reason people have proved me wrong there. But anyways..

What am I really being wagoned for nbow? I saw elmo vote me for the whole thing where I wasnt reallg sure of quints claim, if Iw as either way the day would of already ended I can assure you that much given the way I saw SC play even though onyl one death a night and only one really twon player fying makes me hesitgate on that qeingts hammer.

I atill think that ML is likely scum with PoE at Cor if its who scum instead of one which I really wish kenw if the second existed sicne I am pretty scnceire with my suspciiosn at this potin.

Im going to ge somleep soom enogh, if anyone i wrote needs carifiyin tomorrow tell me since I dont hink this is leginble to a high exent

[qwints]

Mind clarifying how this:

Well for the whole qeints doctor claim, wow. I thoguth that a doctor claim was a stupid one that would get a really quick lynch bur for some reason people have proved me wrong there. But anyways..

is consistent with this:

I really dont think scum would be ballsy enough to claim the same thing that their scum buddy who already got killed would simply given that it just seems suicidal so the claim looks good [/WIFOM]

I dont like how qwints has played if he is a doctor, especially the protect of Jazz (who by far being the worse protection) who just seemed less likely to be NKed then a few others. The only reason I could of seen would of needed to be in someone elses shoes that earlier were hard to get in.

I just cant ignore the ammount of WIFOM behind scum claiming the same role and not just countering each other. While its an odd claim, I do buy it. I may not like the way he chooses to play (or even his N2 target), but there are others I would rather see lynched before him.
.

and this:

Wait... why are we thinking of lynching a doctor claim again?

In vino veritas, eh?

[Corvuus]

ok, extension. yay.

----

I have a freshman-BBQ to attend but i'll have time later today for re-read on llama and such.

(Note: when i asked for extension it was because my time would be late sat/sunday to respond and that would be too late for deadline.)

Corv

[MacavityLock]

I agree, deadline extension = good, especially since I wasn't around yesterday. Will add more tonight or tomorrow.

LF, please translate 978 when you get the chance.

[MacavityLock]

The fact that you are grasping desperately on to a single word out of all of my posts, in an effort to pretend that there is no case against you is quite ridiculous.

Actually, I'd like you to go more into this. As far as I can tell, your case on me can be found in its entirety in your iso 20 and can be summed up as "ML had limited interactions with SC on Day 1." Having read back over Day 1, this is either not true or just as true for Atlas/qwintz as it is for me, so I'm not sure I understand your focus on me.

[qwints]

ML, just because you were gone when the SC lynch happened doesn't mean that you can ignore my involvement. I clearly helped press for a SC lynch at the end of day 1. I also made several comments suggesting that I didn't believe his claim. I already explained that the reason I didn't do more was to avoid attracting scum's attention.

[MacavityLock]

ML, just because you were gone when the SC lynch happened doesn't mean that you can ignore my involvement.

Sorry, this is in reference to what? I've never ignored your involvement at the end of Day 1; I have wondered whether it was more likely a bus.

I already explained that the reason I didn't do more was to avoid attracting scum's attention.

I understand this, but I still have a hard time with:

It's simply not worth the risk of a mislynch.

[Corvuus]

hm.

i just finished re-reading Llama.

I thought he was town-ish from day 1 comments and interactions (the Wall of posts between him and Ythill, i thought both were town just duking it out) and he does make points on ML that I agree with.

I don't quite understand why it seems like the Llama player on day 1 and the one we currently have are completely different now. The posts seem to drop in quality/quantity and I can understand why people think he is less townie now then compared to before and i don't know if alcohol is the only explanation. I'd still consider Llama more town than not though.

My vote and comments on ML will be forthcoming.... rereading Llama closely took more time than I expected considering he only has 59 posts.

Corv
P.S. I thought Atlas was fairly townie as well. PoE still has ML as most likely.

[Elmo]

Hm, Jazz.. ML went for Apoth over SC. And he's consistently pushed Apoth as possible scum for a while now. The problem with saying he's scummy for that is that we don't know Apoth's alignment yet. If Apoth was known town, I would weigh it a bit less but I'd see what you're getting at; as it is, Apoth is on your list of suspects. I've had something like that happen to me; I pushed hard for the lynch of person A, while being "meh" about person B, and person B was lynched as scum. Then people were suspicious of me for pushing someone else over person B; of course, person A turned out to be scum as well.

From my POV:
# Jazz says ML had a complete lack of interaction with SC
# ML says "complete" is wrong
# Jazz says the general point still stands

I don't see anything suspicious in either, really. ML's objection seems reasonable, and Jazz's initial attack doesn't look like deliberate mischaracterisation. I do think he's answered the general point in 939 before he brought up "complete". I can't find your (Jazz) response to that.

I am more than willing to listen to arguments against people, but I just don't see a whole lot in ML's interactions (or not) with SC that would indicate he's scum. Yes, if he were scum (and Apoth was town), that's probably what he'd do, but there doesn't seem to be a strong reason to believe he wouldn't do that as town. Maybe I'm biased since I already see him as townish, maybe I'm missing something in your argument, whatever; I don't see it. :\

I would also like people to seriously reexamine their view of Apoth. I have not heard any real explanation of why SC was definitely not bussing him, and yet everyone seems to have taken it for granted. My position was never that he should be cleared permanently, but should live a bit longer than he otherwise might. If you remove SC's interactions with him, you're left with someone who actually looks pretty freaking scummy, for example his mysterious turnaround on whether SC was suspicious.

[Elmo]

Above is mostly addressed to Jazzmyn.

To Corvuus, my experience is that it's far easier to look pro-town when you're bussing someone.

[Jazzmyn]

@MacavityLock

The interaction (and lack thereof) between you and StrangerCougar is very suspicious to me. A review of your posts on Day 1 show a remarkable lack on interest on your part regarding StrangerCougar, who was hands down the scummiest player in the game. A review of your posts also shows that when you did mention him, you usually did so either peripherally or in a way that excused or pooh poohed away his scumminess, and sometimes even in a manner that looks like efforts to draw suspicion away from him.

Let's review.
On October 28, the vote count was:

Evilgorrilaz 3 - (MacavityLock, Primate, StrangerCoug)
Primate 1 - (Atlas)
Atlas 1 - (SmintyLost23)
Apothecary 1 - (MiteyMouse)
Corvuus 2 - (Zeppo007, Evilgorrilaz)
MacavityLock 1 - (Cephrir)
MiteyMouse 1 - (Corvuus)
Not voting 1 - (Apothecary)

Then Cephrir dropped a 4th vote on EG without providing any reasons, and SC unvoted EG and voted Cephrir for 'mindless bandwagoning'.
Then you posted:

I approve of Ceph's bandwagoning. Hey everybody, let's quicklynch!

Nobody else voted for either EG or Cephrir in the meantime, so Cephrir had all of one vote, at which time you posted:

In fact, I think that people who don't see that are

jumping on the easier Ceph-bandwagon

. The first semi-suspicious thing that happens in this game, and you don't want to reason it through? Also, I'm not following on Gorillaz-scum at all. So, yeah, I'm going to unvote him.

FoS: StrangerCoug and MiteyMouse

. In fact,

Vote: MiteyMouse.

StrangerCoug at least is saying original things. MM is just following the trail SC is blazing.

And that is the entirety of "suspicion" you point at SC up until the point where he is at L-1. You FoSed him for casting a single vote on Cephrir, by couching it in language that suggests he's "jumping on the Ceph-bandwagon" when no such wagon existed. In the same post, you immediately voted for MM, who had not voted for Cephrir at that point either, and then you quasi-compliment SC in the process, by saying that he is saying original things.

No wagon on Cephrir ever materialized, and SC unvoted him a page later.

A while later, a wagon started on SC. You were nowhere near it. You never commented on it, and you never voiced any actual suspicion of him. All you did was mention vague references to some past voiced suspicion, but the only voiced suspicion you ever made of him was for that vote of his for Cephrir noted above.

On November 1, SC was up to 3 votes, with no comment about SC from you at all. SC voted for Corvuus on that day and you followed with a FoS on Corvuus on November 2, ostensibly for not noticing that Primate had voted for SC at the end of one of his stupid picture posts and you thought that Corvuus should have noticed. That is a ridiculous reason to cast suspicion on someone, and it looks like you were trying to divert attention from SC to Corvuus. On November 5, Apoth jumped on with a vote against Corvuus. You returned on November 6 and 7, saying nothing about SC or his wagon at all, then on November 8, you

FoSed Corvuus again, for "jumping all over SC"

and by hinting at Primate and SC being two townies going after each other.

You wrote that despite the fact that on November 7, SC himself agreed with Corvuus that he had been ignoring Primate's accusations against him for too long, and despite the fact that SC wrote some questions to Primate regarding the basis for his suspicions, etc. You didn't mention that at all, and just went after Corvuus for questioning SC, misrepresenting him the process. You went further and sort of defended SC by asking how anyone can attack Primate for his logic and reasoning while Primate is only posting in pictures (which you supported and previously said you were able to comprehend) and you suggested that if Primate thinks that SC is scum, it is up to him to convince the town that SC is scum. This looks like you are completely disinterested in SC's scumminess, while simultaneously wanting to keep Primate around as an utterly useless townie.

On November 10, you answered a question that SC asked of Apoth by saying that just because Primate hasn't said what his reason for voting SC was doesn't mean he doesn't have a reason. No comment about anything that you think might be scummy about SC, no questioning to try to see what it is that others find scummy about SC; it almost looks like you thought you may have gone too far in your last post trying to paint SC as town, and decided to at least comment on the possibility that someone might have some reason to think SC might be scum, without actually offering up any suggestion of suspicion yourself.

On November 12, you posted solely to avoid a prod, saying you have nothing new to add. When called on that, with regard to SC, you said:

SC, I mentioned early on as having suspicions of. He has not done anything to remove those suspicions. Nothing new to add.

But, in fact, the only suspicion you had voiced of SC by that time was your FoS of him back in October for allegedly jumping on a non-existent Ceph-wagon. Then you added, to Corvuus:

You, I recently mentioned that your attacks of SC are full of flawed logic. I saw your explanations and wasn't particularly convinced. Nothing new to add.

In fact, you had misrepresented Corvuus' posts about SC by claiming that he said that townies should attack other townies if they are attacked, when that wasn't what Corvuus was saying, but rather that he thought SC should have been defending himself from Primate's attacks, etc. (See your November 8 post referenced above in which you hinted at SC being a townie). You added that MiteyMouse and SC were your top targets at the moment, but still you had not voiced any basis for your alleged suspicion of SC other than that post from October.

Then SC asked you what your case on MiteyMouse was and you responded:

Like I said, I called MiteyMouse out early for his blindly following you in your bad logic.

The problem is that you never previously directed any accusation at SC for his alleged "bad logic" so why direct an accusation to someone else who you claim was agreeing with it? I don't see a single post in which you cast suspicion at SC for his "bad logic". Perhaps you can point one out.

Then, despite having just said that MM and SC are your "top suspects", in your next post on the same day, you said that

MM is still at the top of my scum-list, but you're [Corvuus] 1A.

And just like that, SC is down your list again. It seems as though when you found yourself in a position of having to actually refer to SC, you made sure to add suspicion of others so as to direct attention away from SC.

On November 15, SC answered a question that you directed to MM and you asked SC why he answered for her. You said that you wanted her to answer but then you went on to to invite SC to elaborate on his answer anyway. Hardly consistent with claiming not to want him to answer it. Then, when he elaborated as you requested, you went on to say that wasn't what you were looking for and then you went back to MM. In hindsight, this exchange looks forced, particularly in light of the fact that you had previously answered a question that SC had directed to Apothecary, without there being any reason for you to do so (back on November 10). It almost looks like the two of you were aware of your serious lack of interaction and wanted to get some in, on safe grounds, in order to later to try to avoid the accusation that you were too distant from each other on Day 1... as now, for instance.

Then you immediately went back to your bogus case on MM, started in on Apoth, FoSed Zeppo, and you said nothing at all further about or to SC while he continued to attract votes, until he got up to L-1 at which time you immediately quoted Ceph's post that put him at L-1, in which Ceph said, "That SC wagon looks better every minute", by saying you "tend to agree" and call for SC to claim.

I found it kind of humorous that you wrote in one of your posts previously that you had called for SC to claim as though it was somehow a point in your favour. It is just as likely that you were watching the votes without casting any suspicion at him but ready to jump in to request a claim to prevent anyone from hammering your scumbuddy before he had the opportunity to fake-claim.

Up to the fake claim, it seems that any interaction you had with SC had someone else as the main focus and him only peripherally. You didn't voice any specific suspicions about him, just vague things that you didn't elaborate on or follow up on.

After SC's fake claim, you went back to attacking Apoth, then SC started a bandwagon on him, which you were, of course, happy to jump on. You mentioned SC a few times in your posts after his fake claim, but only addressed him directly a couple of times (once on a semantics point and once to say, "sorry, I'm a bit confused" about something he said about his suspicions on Ythill and Zeppo being minor any more, which seemed a very odd post at the time, and even stranger in hindsight), and any other references you made to him seemed peripheral in nature. That is, when you mentioned him, you mentioned that others were more suspicious to you. You even went after Corvuus again after the fake-claim, criticizing Corvuus for continuing to attack SC and for continuing to say that he didn't believe SC's claim.

Anyway, to continue the chronology, on November 22, you started with a FoS on Apoth, which SC quickly followed with a vote and the beginning of the Apoth wagon, and after Ythill jumped on, you added your own vote that same day. That wagon eventually got Apoth up to L-1 and when Ythill suggested on December 15 backing off of the Apoth lynch to go for an Atlas lynch, you were opposed and said:

Bandwagons that don't start until this close to deadline are dangerous, and if we do end up lynching Apoth and he flips scum, I'll be looking very closely at you. Conversely, if Apoth flips town, I think that your points on qwintz and his presupposing Apoth-town aren't bad ones, and I'll be looking at him. Yay for day 2 targets!

,
So, although you were one of the prime instigators of the Apoth wagon, you had your Day 2 targets all lined up no matter which way Apoth flipped. That smells funny.

Then, of course, there was a last minute wagon against SC which resulted in lynching scum. Those who voted to lynch SC were OGML/MM, Qwints/Atlas, LLamaFluff, Cephrir, and Elmo. Right after I said I would hammer, SC self-hammered. You weren't anywhere near either one of SC's wagons, ML. I realize that you later said you were busy with school for his second wagon, which is fair enough, but still, your lack of suspicion and lack of interaction with SC overall over the course of events between October and December 18 look like the actions of a scumbuddy to me.

Throughout the entirety of Day 1, SC never voted for or FoSed you once, although he did every other player in the game except for MM, who was your main target on Day 1 prior to SC's fake claim. You FoSed SC only once, back in October, and never again, and you never voted for him. This, despite the fact that you FoSed or voted the second largest number of players in the game (after SC). But the hands down scummiest guy in the entire game, you virtually ignored, in relative terms.

Regards,
Jazz

[Jazzmyn]

LF, please translate 978 when you get the chance.

I second this request.

Regards,
Jazz

[Jazzmyn]

i just finished re-reading Llama.

I thought he was town-ish from day 1 comments and interactions (the Wall of posts between him and Ythill, i thought both were town just duking it out) and he does make points on ML that I agree with.

I don't quite understand why it seems like the Llama player on day 1 and the one we currently have are completely different now. The posts seem to drop in quality/quantity and I can understand why people think he is less townie now then compared to before and i don't know if alcohol is the only explanation. I'd still consider Llama more town than not though.

I agree with this.

What does PoE mean?

I would also like people to seriously reexamine their view of Apoth. I have not heard any real explanation of why SC was definitely not bussing him, and yet everyone seems to have taken it for granted. My position was never that he should be cleared permanently, but should live a bit longer than he otherwise might. If you remove SC's interactions with him, you're left with someone who actually looks pretty freaking scummy, for example his mysterious turnaround on whether SC was suspicious.

I agree with this. I have not dismissed the possibility of both Apoth and SC being scum, and I am pretty sure that I mentioned previously that it could have been a matter of two scum both happening to be on the lynching block on Day 1 that caused SC to go after Apoth as he did. It is not as statistically likely for 2 scum to both be on the lynching block rather than one town and one scum on Day 1, but certainly not impossible.

Regarding your other post, as you can see, I was composing a lengthy post while you were posting yours.

Regards,
Jazz

[qwints]

Corvuus has been using PoE to mean process of elimination.

[LlamaFluff]

I know ive been distant recently. I got really busy with life and games I was more involved in pushed this one back a bit too far.

A translation of the post I dont remember writing in entirety:

I never thought the doctor claim would actually be accepted given how it was tried once already and it seems like the best move would of been to counter SC once the wagon backed off him a bit. This didnt happen however though for some reason.

I still am not entirely sure of why I have votes right now. The rest of this I dont even understand entirely but... heres my best interp. If I knew more about the setup I would of probably been acting a bit differently over the claim from qwints since there might be a way to force a win here unless im really just being naive over what is known. One death a night though is just confusing me beyond all reason given how players we know the alignments of have acted.

@mod

- Would multiple faction kills be apparent if a player was targeted for more then one kill in a night?

Right now I also think that ML-Corv would be the two scum if there are really two left. Jazz looks town, Elmo looks town and all things considered I dont think qwints really is going to be scum at the end of all of this.

[qwints]

LF, what makes you think that there are two killing factions? - Is it just SC talking about there being two scum?

[LlamaFluff]

LF, what makes you think that there are two killing factions? - Is it just SC talking about there being two scum?

Thats the biggest reason, there is one other big reason, but that one really is convoluted and I want to see if I can clear away the dust before I make it known.

[Elmo]

Hmm. 988 is real interesting. Certainly (assuming the reread checks out, and I think it will) I get the case against him, now, and I'm definitely wavering on him.. I asked ML a variant of this a while back, but I guess it bears asking again:

ML, why were you markedly

less

suspicious of SC than virtually everyone else was?

[MacavityLock]

Well, I'll try to answer 988 point by point as well as I can, but I'll need a bit of time to collect each point and try to remember my mindset as of 3 months ago. All I can say as a blanket statement is that those were my legitimate suspicions at the time.

As for

ML, why were you markedly

less

suspicious of SC than virtually everyone else was?

I really don't think this is true. If you have to compare me to others, I'd ask that you re-read both Atlas/qwintz and Apoth on Day 1.

[Apothecary]

Apologies for being offline for a while.
Been very busy for a while, and might not be able to continue the game. If so I'll request a replacement.

[Corvuus]

as qwints pointed out, I use PoE as Process of Elimination. I don't know if it is in common usage or anything (or if mafiascum.net players think in terms of it) but I think it is useful to describe things that way in certain situations. i.e. We can't all be town, and not all scum will be obvious, so sometimes it comes down to who is 'least' likely to be town/most likely to be scum.

Jazz... did an amazing job and put it far better than I could. One of the things that kind of threw me off on day 1 was that people were either ignoring or siding with SC or Ythill/Primate and there was strange interaction/reaction to me but... to put it simply, I was extremely worried about what people were saying/doing but they "couldn't all be scum" so it left me feeling that i was being paranoid since I was FoSed/voted by several players for the whole Primate 'fake PR', SC lack of care/defense, etc. etc.

At any rate, Jazz's point of view on the chronology of previous events is good and I would be interested in hearing the response.

Elmo: I understand what you mean by scum busing each other, I just think that it is weird for Apoth-scum to make a comment on SC-scum being town but not doc and SC-scum to jump on it like that. At the time of SC's claim, I felt that SC was lying and that Apoth "may" have been the doc but (for some weird obscure reason) thought SC was town and so didn't counterclaim but said SC was not the doc, but town. If Apoth had counterclaimed and explained that is why he said what he said, then I may have believed it and part of me didn't want to focus on Apoth that much because of this possibility. The... 'newbieness', weird defense, no doc claim, and subsequent actions now does make it possible that Apoth is scummy if I 'remove' the wifom/mindgame of SC going after a scumpartner. It could also be why Apoth flip-flopped and behaved kind of erratically on SC's doc claim.

I'll have to think about it more, but I can imagine a SC-Apoth-ML scumgroup.

Corvuus

[MacavityLock]

OK, I did my best to pull what I could from 988. It's long.

Then Cephrir dropped a 4th vote on EG without providing any reasons, and SC unvoted EG and voted Cephrir for 'mindless bandwagoning'.
Then you posted:

I approve of Ceph's bandwagoning. Hey everybody, let's quicklynch!

Nobody else voted for either EG or Cephrir in the meantime, so Cephrir had all of one vote, at which time you posted:

In fact, I think that people who don't see that are

jumping on the easier Ceph-bandwagon

. The first semi-suspicious thing that happens in this game, and you don't want to reason it through? Also, I'm not following on Gorillaz-scum at all. So, yeah, I'm going to unvote him.

FoS: StrangerCoug and MiteyMouse

. In fact,

Vote: MiteyMouse.

StrangerCoug at least is saying original things. MM is just following the trail SC is blazing.

And that is the entirety of "suspicion" you point at SC up until the point where he is at L-1. You FoSed him for casting a single vote on Cephrir, by couching it in language that suggests he's "jumping on the Ceph-bandwagon" when no such wagon existed. In the same post, you immediately voted for MM, who had not voted for Cephrir at that point either, and then you quasi-compliment SC in the process, by saying that he is saying original things.

A few things here. First off, I highly approved on Ceph's vote, which I found to be a blatantly pro-town way to get out of the random vote stage. While MM did not produce a vote on Ceph, I felt that her posts with respect to agreeing with SC about Ceph constituted her joining that bandwagon. I can completely understand if others don't agree with that view of the situation, but that was my interpretation. As for the "original" comment, I do find it more pro-town to come up with one's own argument than to parrot someone else's. So, when 2 people make basically identical scummy posts, it seems like a reasonable tiebreaker to me.

A while later, a wagon started on SC. You were nowhere near it. You never commented on it, and you never voiced any actual suspicion of him. All you did was mention vague references to some past voiced suspicion, but the only voiced suspicion you ever made of him was for that vote of his for Cephrir noted above.

On November 1, SC was up to 3 votes, with no comment about SC from you at all.

The wagon as of Nov 1 was Primate, Ceph, and Zeppo. Take a look over their posts to that point. None of them had provided any more complete reason for their vote than I did with my MM vote and SC FoS. In fact, Zeppo's vote on SC looks basically equivalent to my vote on MM, except with the vote recipients reversed.

SC voted for Corvuus on that day and you followed with a FoS on Corvuus on November 2, ostensibly for not noticing that Primate had voted for SC at the end of one of his stupid picture posts and you thought that Corvuus should have noticed. That is a ridiculous reason to cast suspicion on someone, and it looks like you were trying to divert attention from SC to Corvuus.

I would absolutely expect someone who has just re-read to know where the current vote is of the person he is voting for. I don't think it's unreasonable to bring it up. I do admit that a FoS is an over-reaction here, and at the current stage of my MafiaScum career, I would not have FoS'ed.

On November 5, Apoth jumped on with a vote against Corvuus. You returned on November 6 and 7, saying nothing about SC or his wagon at all

The SC wagon at this point had reduced to only Primate and Zeppo. Other than Corv, had anyone else said something about this wagon at this point?

[Then] on November 8, you

FoSed Corvuus again, for "jumping all over SC"

and by hinting at Primate and SC being two townies going after each other.

You wrote that despite the fact that on November 7, SC himself agreed with Corvuus that he had been ignoring Primate's accusations against him for too long, and despite the fact that SC wrote some questions to Primate regarding the basis for his suspicions, etc. You didn't mention that at all, and just went after Corvuus for questioning SC, misrepresenting him the process. You went further and sort of defended SC by asking how anyone can attack Primate for his logic and reasoning while Primate is only posting in pictures (which you supported and previously said you were able to comprehend) and you suggested that if Primate thinks that SC is scum, it is up to him to convince the town that SC is scum. This looks like you are completely disinterested in SC's scumminess, while simultaneously wanting to keep Primate around as an utterly useless townie.

Wow, this whole paragraph is a misrep of me. First off, I think my point on Corv's wall-of-words posts around this time was totally reasonable. I read Corv as equating defense and attack, and I think that's a flawed way to draw your suspicions. I have put two relevant Corv quotes at the bottom of this post, because I don't want to interrupt the flow here.

As for the deal with Primate, I had

already come around

to the conclusion that I wasn't going to stand for him posting without reasoning anymore. (See my iso 12 and 13.) So you saying that I wanted to keep useless-Primate around is a misrep.

On November 10, you answered a question that SC asked of Apoth by saying that just because Primate hasn't said what his reason for voting SC was doesn't mean he doesn't have a reason. No comment about anything that you think might be scummy about SC, no questioning to try to see what it is that others find scummy about SC; it almost looks like you thought you may have gone too far in your last post trying to paint SC as town, and decided to at least comment on the possibility that someone might have some reason to think SC might be scum, without actually offering up any suggestion of suspicion yourself.

SC's question of "Hasn't it been established that Primate voted me without a reason?" is not specific to Apoth. In fact, if anyone disagrees with SC's assumption here, they've got to refute it so as to establish that what he's saying is

not

true. Also, at this point, the only person making comments about SC's scumminess is Corv. No one else is commenting at this point either, not even the other people on his wagon.

On November 12, you posted solely to avoid a prod, saying you have nothing new to add. When called on that, with regard to SC, you said:

SC, I mentioned early on as having suspicions of. He has not done anything to remove those suspicions. Nothing new to add.

But, in fact, the only suspicion you had voiced of SC by that time was your FoS of him back in October for allegedly jumping on a non-existent Ceph-wagon.

So? Doesn't mean those suspicions went away.

Then you added, to Corvuus:

You, I recently mentioned that your attacks of SC are full of flawed logic. I saw your explanations and wasn't particularly convinced. Nothing new to add.

In fact, you had misrepresented Corvuus' posts about SC by claiming that he said that townies should attack other townies if they are attacked, when that wasn't what Corvuus was saying, but rather that he thought SC should have been defending himself from Primate's attacks, etc. (See your November 8 post referenced above in which you hinted at SC being a townie).

I still think my interpretation was reasonable at the time, and not a misrep. Having seen his responses to this, I think it is less scummy than I thought at the time. I may have misunderstood and disagreed with him, but I didn't misrep him.

Then SC asked you what your case on MiteyMouse was and you responded:

Like I said, I called MiteyMouse out early for his blindly following you in your bad logic.

The problem is that you never previously directed any accusation at SC for his alleged "bad logic" so why direct an accusation to someone else who you claim was agreeing with it? I don't see a single post in which you cast suspicion at SC for his "bad logic". Perhaps you can point one out.

This was about my iso 4. "Bad logic" refers to the Ceph-scum and Gorillaz-scum cases at that point.

Then, despite having just said that MM and SC are your "top suspects", in your next post on the same day, you said that

MM is still at the top of my scum-list, but you're [Corvuus] 1A.

And just like that, SC is down your list again. It seems as though when you found yourself in a position of having to actually refer to SC, you made sure to add suspicion of others so as to direct attention away from SC.

I found Corv's harping on my completely null actions at this point to be very scummy.

On November 15, SC answered a question that you directed to MM and you asked SC why he answered for her. You said that you wanted her to answer but then you went on to to invite SC to elaborate on his answer anyway. Hardly consistent with claiming not to want him to answer it.

I did not want him to answer for MM, but once he did, I think its reasonable to press him on his answer. Specifically, I couldn't actually make sense of his answer, so I don't see why it's a bad thing to ask about.

Then, when he elaborated as you requested, you went on to say that wasn't what you were looking for and then you went back to MM. In hindsight, this exchange looks forced, particularly in light of the fact that you had previously answered a question that SC had directed to Apothecary, without there being any reason for you to do so (back on November 10). It almost looks like the two of you were aware of your serious lack of interaction and wanted to get some in, on safe grounds, in order to later to try to avoid the accusation that you were too distant from each other on Day 1... as now, for instance.

And how would we have set up that kind of coordination to interact here? Also, I have addressed the "question directed to Apoth" bit already. Seriously, you're reaching here.

After SC's fake claim, you went back to attacking Apoth, then SC started a bandwagon on him, which you were, of course, happy to jump on. You mentioned SC a few times in your posts after his fake claim, but only addressed him directly a couple of times (once on a semantics point and once to say, "sorry, I'm a bit confused" about something he said about his suspicions on Ythill and Zeppo being minor any more, which seemed a very odd post at the time, and even stranger in hindsight), and any other references you made to him seemed peripheral in nature.

As I already stated, once he made the doc claim, I considered him both off-limits and too scummy to pay attention to, so I did my best to ignore him.

Throughout the entirety of Day 1, SC never voted for or FoSed you once, although he did every other player in the game except for MM, who was your main target on Day 1 prior to SC's fake claim. You FoSed SC only once, back in October, and never again, and you never voted for him. This, despite the fact that you FoSed or voted the second largest number of players in the game (after SC). But the hands down scummiest guy in the entire game, you virtually ignored, in relative terms.

He also never voted or FoSed Atlas/qwintz except for a random vote. I'll ask you the same thing I asked Elmo: Please re-read Atlas/qwintz and Apoth on Day 1.

There's more to 988, but I think I've covered everything else there in either this post or previous posts. The only things I specifically haven't addressed are Jazz's assumptions of my intent, i.e. I tried to distract from SC's scumminess. I wasn't trying to do that at all, but if that's what she thinks, that's what she thinks, and there's nothing I can say that will change that. If anyone does have something that I haven't addressed here or any other questions, let me know.

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Corv quotes referenced above:

It also doesn't explain your defense of Primate and refusal to believe my points. If you don't believe them, then why don't you attack them like you try to attack everyone else?

But you don't. You say you don't believe my points, etc. but then you don't think I am scummy and just keep voting after other people.

Primate has a ven diagram where he has you shown as 100% scum. Shouldn't you be angry? Shouldn't you fight back? Explain why you don't attack Primate's logic, his diagrams, etc. and why you don't think he is scum for what he is doing when you clearly think others are scum when they are doing virtually the equivalent.