Mini 739 ~ Mafia Jailbreak, Game Over

[OhGodMyLife]

It occurs to me that a mafia containing a mafia doctor has added reasons to be paranoid about the presence of an SK.

[OhGodMyLife]

It also occurs to me that a mafia doctor gives paranoid scum an added reason to talk about how <2 kills does not rule out the presence of an sk.

I'm done multiposting I swear.

[RedCoyote]

Why is it bunk? Do you think it’s fabricated?

Well, I know it is. He's basing it off of one newbie game. That's allegedly his only real reason for his vote being up, because he wants to test a meta.

---

Sorry to see you go Korts.

Hey all, replacing for Korts.

Hi CF!

---

If you don't assume anything about my allignment, is an emotional appeal manipulative? Can you even argue that its scummy at all?

That just strikes me as more WIFOM Rhinox.

---

No, its not the same question or answer exactly, but it is the same point over and over again. Its not getting anywhere, and its bogging down the thread in huge posts that haven't got a thing to do with actual gameplay.

If pops has flown under the radar, you are at least guilty of trying to do the same thing by filling pages with the same damn argument back and forth about whether or not its OK to talk about whether or not there is an SK. I would call that an attempt to hide in plain sight.

Which is why I requested multiple times that the discussion needn't go on. I could see there was going to be no meeting of the minds, but there was an honest disagreement.

I know on epic people just can't get enough of day one claiming, and its very often the right strategy, but thats because the setup is entirely open, not semi-open. Semi-open is still also semi-closed. Just because there could be a town doctor or watcher does not mean there IS one of those roles, so a power role claiming is just asking to be nightkilled. In essence, you are blatantly role fishing.

About the response I expected.

Let me ask you OGML, if a defensive role "fishes" for roles with the intention on protecting them, that's bad in your eyes too?

Saying you want to play the newbie card is, in fact, playing the newbie card. I know you are a good player on epicmafia, I know you are not a stupid person, so I don't see how the above point about the difference between open and semi-open could really escape you, MS newb or otherwise.

Who said the difference escaped me?

Who says the risk of having a role come out is greater or lesser than that of the town mislynching or misreading another player?

Well, since you are on the RC wagon, I don't doubt that that is true.

What does this mean?

Translation: Anybody but meeeee!

Do you contend that town would act differently from scum in this respect?

What teamwork! Its glorious! Two scum, working in tandem to try to make the fact that I've got them nailed look suspicious.

What the heck does that fact that its an entirely new post have to do with it? I was reading along, didn't have time for an in depth post, but wanted to put my opinion out there so it would be situated near the post that set off alarm bells.

Oh, I just asked the town to make a note of it, I don't expect you to concede that it looks supicious of you to keep beating on the drum as it were.

What exactly is wrong with this, and why do you have to appeal it to the authority that is bio?

What about this do you consider appealing to authority? Did you miss post 228 when bionic said he misunderstood me?

Additionally, there's nothing wrong with it from your perspective. If bionic is having doubts about who is being lynched however, then there is indeed something wrong with his vote.

In this thread, RedCoyote appeals to fear.

Oh, well, it's just the truth. Don't let it be said that I didn't try my hardest to provide an alternative lynch for real reasons (which no one has rebutted) as opposed to accepting this wagon on me based primarily on "stating the obvious" and "not scumhunting".

I also think that if RC has a claim to make it should be made earlier rather than later.

We'll see what CF Riot has to say.

---

Exactly. So no RC, I don't want that one. I want the post, if it exists, where someone implied that we should assume there isn't an SK.

No, because now I disagree with the way you are defining the comment. I realize you are trying to trap me, and I don't think you are any more scummy for doing so, but you're getting overexcited about a conclusion that doesn't have the same definition that I do. You originally asked me why I said that I thought it was humourous that a player would assume there isn't an SK and told me no one said that.

But it was the implication that we should assume there isn't an SK,

You can't do that on Day 1, so saying we should assume there are two killing factions right now on D1 and play accordingly is silly.

I realize you disagree with me, I realize you don't think talking about the SK is good until you feel comfortable about it.

The impression I was getting around this town is that the SK doesn't exist until it is proven so, and that impression did not sit well with me.

It was all part of the same discussion.

No it wasn't.

I will gladly continue to talk

about why

I think it serves the town much

better to assume that there is an additional scum (e.g. Serial Killer)

than not, Day one or no.

You're trying to equate this statement with the idea that I wanted to talk about night actions and role possibilities.

Although that sort of discussion does not carry the same stigma with me, that is a far cry from talking about whether or not we should assume there is an SK today.

No I don't. Not at this stage of the game anyway. Putting pressure on you is legitimate scum-hunting.

Again, it's a matter of ignoring questions directed to me.

I contend that you (or another player) would've hated my ignorance of questions directed at me at least as much as my answers.

Unless you make the claim that it is not scummy for one player to ignore another.

Yes, I had noticed. It's interesting that you're nervous about it.

How is being comfortable with lynching someone "tying themselves" to them? Both you and OGML brought this up, and I flatly disagree.

I wasn't hassling you about the self-voting issue as such; just the fact that you asked a question, created a lot of discussion, but never showed any interest in the responses.

Mostly because Rhinox didn't say what I wanted him to say. I happen to agree with him in the sense that voting yourself draws unnecessary attention to yourself and unnecessarily away from the game.

I don't think it's enough to vote someone without regard to the context of the game, but I certainly can't say he's wrong. Basically I wanted to hear him say, "There's nothing wrong with self-voting, as long as you vote!" or something along those lines.

---

1.) What does Huntress or I have to do with answering questions presented to you?
2.) Why, in the name of everything holy, would you create a false dictomy and push a self-preservation wagon (even IF you thought Rhinox was 100% USDA Choice scum, this wording is a giant red flag).

1.) The fact that I already had quite a lot of points to respond to before either of y'all had made a recent post.

2.) I don't even know how I should respond to this. There are a limited number of days left today, indeed my most pressing issue should be self-preservation.

Due to the fact that no one was taking the initiative to provide an alternative lynch, I took the opportunity to lay a case against the person I thought to be most scummy.

I was the first person to vote Rhinox outside of the random votes.

Although

now

I'm under unfortunate circumstances, Rhinox was certainly not a name I picked out of a hat or decided to choose because he is the runner-up in votes. Believe it or not, I actually do think Rhinox is scum Spy. I can't tell you how disappointed I am that after you requested someone make an official case against Rhinox in a similar style to that of bionic, this is all you were able to get from it. The insinuation that me pushing Rhinox is based purely on motives of self-preservation is completely misguided. I've had my vote on Rhinox for a week now, so please don't tell me that this comes as some sort of shock to you that he would be the person I voted.

I'd like your response to this sooner rather than later, Spy.

I'm still perplexed at how hard it is/was/has been at gettign a concise list on Rhinox OR RC, really (sans bio).

In general I'm very disappointed in the response (or lack thereof) to the case I created yesterday. I'm disappointed especially in Spy and Huntress for outright dismissing it.

In Huntress' case I can only assume that she's not willing to hear other arguments, and in Spy's case I knew that he was the one more interested in seeing an official case on Rhinox, yet he didn't so much as acknowledge that in this quote here.

But

I hold out hope in Jahudo, Rishi, CF Riot, username, and MME to give the argument a fair shake before letting this lynch go through.

[Huntress]

It was all part of the same discussion.

No it wasn't.

I will gladly continue to talk

about why

I think it serves the town much

better to assume that there is an additional scum (e.g. Serial Killer)

than not, Day one or no.

You're trying to equate this statement with the idea that I wanted to talk about night actions and role possibilities.

Although that sort of discussion does not carry the same stigma with me, that is a far cry from talking about whether or not we should assume there is an SK today.

Looking back at post 108 I don't see how you can claim it wasn't part of the same discussion.

No I don't. Not at this stage of the game anyway. Putting pressure on you is legitimate scum-hunting.

Again, it's a matter of ignoring questions directed to me.

I contend that you (or another player) would've hated my ignorance of questions directed at me at least as much as my answers.

Unless you make the claim that it is not scummy for one player to ignore another.

I will always pursue unanswered questions; especially if I see cracks opening up in someone's arguements.

It wasn't the fact that you answered but the

way

you answered that we're picking up on.

Yes, I had noticed. It's interesting that you're nervous about it.

How is being comfortable with lynching someone "tying themselves" to them? Both you and OGML brought this up, and I flatly disagree.

I'm waiting to hear more from Pops before replying to this one.

I wasn't hassling you about the self-voting issue as such; just the fact that you asked a question, created a lot of discussion, but never showed any interest in the responses.

Mostly because Rhinox didn't say what I wanted him to say. I happen to agree with him in the sense that voting yourself draws unnecessary attention to yourself and unnecessarily away from the game.

I don't think it's enough to vote someone without regard to the context of the game, but I certainly can't say he's wrong. Basically I wanted to hear him say, "There's nothing wrong with self-voting, as long as you vote!" or something along those lines.

Post 108 was written

after

I made that point, in post 101, so does not negate it, if that is what you're trying to do by quoting it here.

In general I'm very disappointed in the response (or lack thereof) to the case I created yesterday. I'm disappointed especially in Spy and Huntress for outright dismissing it.

In Huntress' case I can only assume that she's not willing to hear other arguments, and in Spy's case I knew that he was the one more interested in seeing an official case on Rhinox, yet he didn't so much as acknowledge that in this quote here.

But

I hold out hope in Jahudo, Rishi, CF Riot, username, and MME to give the argument a fair shake before letting this lynch go through.

I had already given my opinion on the random vote episode in post 192. You already know my position on the theory discussions. I responded to one or two of the points you made in my last post. And the rest of your case seems to be that he is defensive and he uses WIFOM a lot, which means he should be watched, as should everyone, but doesn't amount to enough for a vote. I am perfectly willing to hear all the arguments, but that doesn't mean I'm going to just accept them, and your attempt to put me in a bad light here just reflects back on you.

[Rhinox]

Well, since you are on the RC wagon, I don't doubt that that is true.

uh... no, I'm not. Read the vote count.

This whole bit here is why I said what I did in post 211. Rhinox is trying to browbeat us into concluding that if one of them is scum, other can not possibly be.

FFS... NO, I'm NOT. I haven't even voted for RC, and I don't even think he is scum...

What teamwork! Its glorious! Two scum, working in tandem to try to make the fact that I've got them nailed look suspicious.

My meta on you says you're either playing extremely ignorantly, or you're scum. I don't see you as the type of player to have confirmation bias on even 1 player, and you've got it on 2 of us being scum together.

You are just feeding my paranoia about Rhinox being the scum power role here.

Thats the first thing you've said thats correct all game... you're paranoid (or scum)...

It occurs to me that a mafia containing a mafia doctor has added reasons to be paranoid about the presence of an SK.

So after shooting down RC's idea because we don't know if we have a watcher or a doctor, you go ahead and assume that the mafia has a doctor so there must be an sk?


I get the that OGML either hasn't read a majority of my posts, or doesn't care about them, or is diliberately misrepping them just to fit his argument. I know I'm long winded sometimes, but if you're going to insist I'm obvscum, I would at least hope you've read everything I've had to say. IMO, this is basically an acknowledgement that the case is fabricated...

vote: OGML

[popsofctown]

oh come ooooooooon spyrex lighten up

[popsofctown]

MME will never catch up to this thread.

Yes, I had noticed. It's interesting that you're nervous about it.

How is being comfortable with lynching someone "tying themselves" to them? Both you and OGML brought this up, and I flatly disagree.

I'm waiting to hear more from Pops before replying to this one.

Harrumph, i don't recall any questions from huntress, but i found this. I guess she just wants me to talk about the RC tying himself thing? I've never seen something like this before. Yes it makes me nervous, and if he's scum it's a pretty good tactic because i'm at that medium level of suspicion that the tie would get me D2 lynched pretty easily based on connection. So without precedent about what to do about that sort of thing, i decided to call it out. I hope you guys realize how strange his reaction to my calling it out was, if iirc, he started talking about his strong suspicions on me that he had supposedly had for a long time (i don't remember hearing about them) and somewhat forcedly talking about how much he'd like to see me burn.

[bionicchop2]

@RC, I read your bulleted case on Rhinox. I would say 50%+ of it I can see as potentially legitimate. Some of it feels like filler (the first few points). It gains a couple of townie points. I don't know how many of those were specifically mentioned by you earlier, or just added when put under pressure. For now I will drop that point in my case against you.

[OhGodMyLife]

So after shooting down RC's idea because we don't know if we have a watcher or a doctor, you go ahead and assume that the mafia has a doctor so there must be an sk?

Holy misrepresentation batman! Where did I say there

must

be an SK? I said its a reason for a scumbag to be worried about the possible presence of an SK.

[Rhinox]

Holy misrepresentation batman! Where did I say there must be an SK? I said its a reason for a scumbag to be worried about the possible presence of an SK.

I wouldn't call it a misrep... you are so stuck on the idea that RC and I are scum partners. You think I'm the one with a power role, so you make up a story that I'm a mafia doc, and RC is worried about an SK because I'm his mafia Doc scum partner, and having a mafia doc is an explanation for why RC is "worried" about an sk... This is nothing but a wild conspiracy theory, based on no facts, that you have to fabricate to justify your argument. In other words, you're playing exactly how I played in our newbie game, when I was scum coming up with crazy scenarios to justify a case to get you mislynched

[SpyreX]

You are just feeding my paranoia about Rhinox being the scum power role here.

If by feeding the paranoia you mean not buying the scum route, yea. I'm just not seeing it on either wagon and I'm aggravated to no end that I cant devote enough time / words / special sauce to get pops on the radar.

2.) I don't even know how I should respond to this. There are a limited number of days left today, indeed my most pressing issue should be self-preservation.

Due to the fact that no one was taking the initiative to provide an alternative lynch, I took the opportunity to lay a case against the person I thought to be most scummy. I was the first person to vote Rhinox outside of the random votes. Although now I'm under unfortunate circumstances, Rhinox was certainly not a name I picked out of a hat or decided to choose because he is the runner-up in votes. Believe it or not, I actually do think Rhinox is scum Spy. I can't tell you how disappointed I am that after you requested someone make an official case against Rhinox in a similar style to that of bionic, this is all you were able to get from it. The insinuation that me pushing Rhinox is based purely on motives of self-preservation is completely misguided. I've had my vote on Rhinox for a week now, so please don't tell me that this comes as some sort of shock to you that he would be the person I voted.

Now, see, thats the thing. I don't care how much time is left and if you're on the block or not - the goal isn't self preservation. The goal is finding scum.

The fact that you brought up self preservation as such a huge point is telling and bothersome.

HOWEVER, you are correct and you did lay suspicion on him much, much earlier. So, I will give you that.

AS for not responding to your case yet. Well, as you can tell from my initial response, the "self-preservation" route almost immediately made me downplay it. In rereading it from a neutral point: there's a lot of filler and conjecture - but there are a few solid points. For the most part this reads as a justification after the fact, though.

But I hold out hope in Jahudo, Rishi, CF Riot, username, and MME to give the argument a fair shake before letting this lynch go through.

You realize this is the same "appeal" business you're getting after Rhinox for - and you're acting like I, who do think BOTH of you are town still, am ignoring whats going on.

I wouldn't call it a misrep... you are so stuck on the idea that RC and I are scum partners. You think I'm the one with a power role, so you make up a story that I'm a mafia doc, and RC is worried about an SK because I'm his mafia Doc scum partner, and having a mafia doc is an explanation for why RC is "worried" about an sk... This is nothing but a wild conspiracy theory, based on no facts, that you have to fabricate to justify your argument. In other words, you're playing exactly how I played in our newbie game, when I was scum coming up with crazy scenarios to justify a case to get you mislynched Wink

...What?

Seriously. What?

I, in fact, may be misreading this but are you saying OGML is scum because this parallels what you did as scum in a different game?

[Rhinox]

...What?

Seriously. What?

I, in fact, may be misreading this but are you saying OGML is scum because this parallels what you did as scum in a different game?

I think this is a case of reading one line out of my last 3 or so posts out of context and using it to come to a completely incorrect conclusion.

[SpyreX]

No, I've read the others. Believe you me. HOWEVER, that post I quoted is not saying that there is a parallel in how you played as scum in a different game?

[Rhinox]

No, I've read the others. Believe you me. HOWEVER, that post I quoted is not saying that there is a parallel in how you played as scum in a different game?

I think its scummy for what it is, and it just happens to be a parallel to how I played as scum.

-not-

Thats how I played as scum, so its scummy now.

[Rhinox]

So spy... what do you think of this comment then?

after overanalyzing BC (i decided too since there's not going on right now), i'm going to count the SK discussion against him more than i would initially, because i think i'd do it if i was scum.

I don't seem to remember any melodramatic suprise out of you after pops made this comment...

[bionicchop2]

So spy... what do you think of this comment then?

after overanalyzing BC (i decided too since there's not going on right now), i'm going to count the SK discussion against him more than i would initially, because i think i'd do it if i was scum.

I don't seem to remember any melodramatic suprise out of you after pops made this comment...

That is Spyrex's top suspect, so I am not sure what you are getting at here.

[SpyreX]

BIO HOW DARE YOU STEAL MY THUNDER

But yes, good job comparing scumbolina to you in a maneuver to not... appear... scummy.

If its scummy for what it is, why the qualifier. Thats the issue. Much like RC's whole "self-preservation" move. Why qualify scummy behavior?

Its like you two want me to want to lynch you, I swear.

[popsofctown]

Its like you two want me to want to lynch you, I swear.

Does that include me?
I actually do want you to hate me, in this funny trollish way. I don't want to actually get lynched though, that'd kind of suck for everyone involved.

Maybe i should quit antagonizing you, since your tunneling is probably a net negative for the town (although it is giving me reads off you, which i like).

Hm... to annoy SpyreX, or take this game seriously....

I'm just not seeing it on either wagon and I'm aggravated to no end that I cant devote enough time / words / special sauce to get pops on the radar.

I taste really good dipped in salt and special sauce SpyreX. Especially if i'm flamebroiled.

[Vi]

Vote Count:

RedCoyote (L-2) ~ Huntress, bionicchop2, popsofctown, Rishi, iamausername

Rhinox (L-4) ~ Jahudo, RedCoyote, OhGodMyLife
popsofctown (L-6) ~ SpyreX
OhGodMyLife (L-6) ~ Rhinox

Minimum (L-7)

Not Voting:

My Milked Eek,

Rhinox,

CF Riot
[size=0]bionicchop2 - 0 | Huntress - 0 | iamausername - 2 | Jahudo - 0 | CF Riot - 1 | My Milked Eek - 2 - PROD1 3 | OhGodMyLife - 0 - PROD1 5 | popsofctown - 0 | RedCoyote - 0 | Rhinox - 0 | Rishi - 1 | SpyreX - 0[/size]

First Deadline Review: Saturday, Feb 14 2009
Current Deadline: Wednesday, Feb 18 2009

[CF Riot]

OK first things first. Since I'm replacing Kso;rt, I decided to be a good replacement. I didn't have much time left on the computer (use library) so I decided to print the remaining 3 pages and take them home to read. Printer friendly version.

100 PAGES LONG.

No exaggeration. But you better believe I can play the mega post game too. It's in Player-by-Player order rather than chronological order, but that was the only way I could take notes and keep my thoughts straight.

Rishi, Huntress, and MME

I'm getting a lurker feel for all three of these players. If Spyre's salt theory is right, these are the kids we're looking at. MME seemed like honest lack of time, but it's continued, and his latest post excusing himself from posting looks put on. Rishi has 6 posts. Yeah. 6. His post 200 seems like a wagon jump as well.

Huntress is actually borderline, and her latest involvement in the RC wagon is making her look better. The one thing in my notes regarding her is that while I agreed with

most

of Post 161, I didn't see how this lead to the vote on RC that came with it. Jahudo I think picks up on this in Post 167. Huntress explains it's mainly the rolefishing, although that was one point I didn't agree with. RC is toeing the line on how far role speculation should go, but I don't see anything he's done that has the potential to force a PR to come out. (More on RC further down.)

SpyreX, OGML, and Bionic

Post 153 touches on what I had been thinking about Pops pre-replacing.

If I am right about pops and I end up being a mislynch tomorrow for it, fine. 1-1 is alright by me.

Fits my general town meta of SpyreX, although I admit I have no scum meta to compare to. In the past I've tended to think a lot like Spyre, this game is no exception.

I agree with OGML posts 198 and 240, particularly his analysis of Rhinox. When I was reading along I noticed a few questions/accusations thrown against Korts and I'm not sure if he responded to all of them or not. I'm going to assume you're content with what Korts said and I can't really say what he was thinking anyways, but if there's something sticking out for you please re-ask and I'll try to answer it.

Bionic has seemed protown throughout. There was one post I remembered agreeing with a lot that I didn't write the number of. 216 is good posting, and is actually the

only

decent case I've seen raised against RC, although I still think this is dwarfed by Rhinox's scumminess.

Red Coyote

I honestly couldn't believe RC was at L-1 when I was around pages 7 and 8. I see the votes, and I see the reasoning, but it just doesn't add up for me. Until RC started taking pressure, I didn't see anything wrong with his SK discussion and considered him to be fairly protown if anything. He has seemed to squirm a little since he started being attacked. His defensive posts come off seemingly hostile towards those arguing against him, and not only towards Rhinox or Pops, which I think is a small tell. However I agree with his Rhinox case, and the speed with which his wagon blossomed says to me that something's amiss.

The fact that in the face of what I view to be equally damning cases, RedCoyote is the one who attracted the L-1 wagon and Rhinox isn't means one of two things: RedCoyote is not on Rhinox's scumteam, and Rhinox's team is lynching RC.

My train of thought is similar to this, although as I've said I don't think RC is scum. I see some of the points against RC, but they all sound like "You're wrong!" statements rather than "You're scum!" statements, yet that's exactly why people are voting him. I think that's the work of the Rhinox scumteam is using this to tilt the vote towards RC.

Pops

I like Spyre's analysis of Pops from 153. This is my minor scumspect for D1. Early reading had me leaning his way. His posts seemed to be all filler. Korts picked up on this waaay early in 44, which can be excused as RVS or early game or w/e, but to me it hasn't really changed since then. Pops's 162 seems like an exaggeration of the usefulness of his tell. It comes off to me as more of an attempt to promote his towniness to the masses than of protecting a tell. 185/186 is a super wagon-jump tied with a crap reason for leaving the Rhinox wagon, and I'm surprised no one has mentioned it. All in all, I could've easily supported a Pops lynch today, were it not for Scumzilla, King of the Mobsters.

Rhinox

Coming in late, it's hard to list everything Rhinox has done to deserve a lynch. I know a lot of this has been said, but I simply can't leave it out. Page 7 was full of tastey nuggets.

So, you insult everyone by thinking that any town power roles would be too stupid to take into consideration any possible roles when making their night choices? Thats what all this has been about? So you can state the obvious, in an attempt to look like a perfect little highly informative townie?

This is a huge stretch, and AtE which Rhinox is guilty of throughout the day.

Although even good scum players can make some mistakes, do you think a good scum player would make the obvious mistake that I made?

Blatant WIFOM.

Unfortunately for me, there just hasn't been enough time for ANYONE to have stacked up a mountain of overwhelming town play... if you guys quicklynch me, that won't change. If you don't, then maybe I can turn around and be more pro-town.

Blantant WIFOM and AtE in the same sentence.


Jumping to post 171:

We all know the setup possibilies... stated very clearly after the rules... And you still haven't shown how any particular town role should play D1 differently by assuming there is an sk.

Of all the rolefishing accusations thrown at RC, I think this one by Rhinox stands out worse than any of them. He's blatantly asking for speculation on

specific

town power roles, and I see it as instigating on top of that.

But, You can't have a conversation with someone without thinking you're being attacked? Sounds overdefensive, imo...

Utter BS coming from Rhinox, who has already said;

So you don't 100% believe my explanation. Fair enough... I haven't really given you or anyone a reason to trust anything I've said. So I guess the question I should be asking everyone right now is if the initial suspicion from my contradiction is strong enough for a lynch, are I can't say anything to alleviate that initial suspicion, are you all prepared to end the day now with a quick lynch on me, or do you feel conversation should continue?

This is not only AtE, but it's calling out

anyone

who votes for him after this point, and is setting up for future lynches if he can shift the wagon from him today when he doesn't even know who will vote him yet.

Resulting to ad hom now to try to get me lynched...

At least I was man enough to admit when I messed up.

Not scummy but a flat 180 from "oh ad hom, you must not have a case," to using it himself. Same post.

Now this is interesting... On one hand, maybe you're trying to make a point, or just be an ass, by unvoting the player you're ALREADY VOTING FOR and voting them again... On the other hand, this makes me think you're not playing serious enough to remember who you were voting for. This really makes me think you are just fabricating this case on me -

if you had genuine suspicions of me, you would have remembered you were already voting me

...

This line is mega-BS. I assumed RC just forgot he was voting Rhinox when I read the post in question. But are you really trying to say he's scum slipping up because he's not paying attention, after the entire Pops fiasco where you claimed VI and said, "Scum wouldn't make such an obvious slip would they?" It's almost the exact same thing Rhinox did himself, except Rhinox admits to it while RC's looks like a simple mistake.

177 is a stretch that looks like fishing for a reason to press Korts, which is kind of minor. But it's also a misrep of Korts's stance on Pops, as pops was continuously posting fluff to hide non-contributing, while Korts's post was obviously a check-in until he made a real post.

Rhinox has also been strongly pushing the RC wagon along, (see everything above) and yet he's doing so from the sidelines by holding his vote. He's devoting all his posts to attacking RC, and he hasn't called anyone else scummy, but he's not voting. Why? So he can shuck the responsibility for it when RC flips town. In 207 he calls out the entire RC wagon. Not those who hopped on, or those who look suspicious, the whole wagon. This is setting up a D2 vote if RC gets lynched and shielding from getting votes on D2 by having something to point at and say he was "against" the RC lynch.

Yeah, I did say that. But that was only 1 possibility. I don't know why I didn't list every possibility. Maybe I just thought it would be assumed.

Backtracking. Obviously I might add. 254 is his first real vote in god knows how many pages, and it looks solidly like OMGUS to me.

If all you mean by 'suspicious' is "It's possible they're scum, because it's always possible that somebody is scum", then why bother pointing out specific behaviours as 'suspicious'? Isn't everything anyone says 'suspicious', by your definition?

I agree with this, and it's another example of Rhinox squirming around with different explanations for scummy actions. (This is out of place, but I had it noted under IAUN instead of Rhinox for some reason, and I don't remember where it goes.)


In conclusion, Rhinox is hard-core scum and I can't fathom how RC has more votes than him. There's consistent WIFOM, AtE, stretching/exaggeration, backtracking, and sidelines wagon pushing. I would much much much rather see a Rhinox lynch than an RC.

Vote: Rhinox

[Rishi]

Rishi has 6 posts. Yeah. 6. His post 200 seems like a wagon jump as well.

Yes, I realize this is bad. For me, it's a lack of free time as well. I can't really play while at work. I've been trying to make my posts count for something, but I'm not one of those people who has time to log on every five minutes. I'm lucky if I can get on once a day, which makes the intense reading in this game that much harder.

As for trying to bandwagon, RC, I had been attacking him since my first substantive post. True, the vote came pretty late, but the suspicion (using it in the "scummy" way, not the Rhinox definition) was there all along.

[bionicchop2]

V/LA the next few days per my signature

[Jahudo]

RC is saying that emotional appeals are blatantly manipulative... but that is only assuming that I'm scum intending to be manipulative. If you don't assume anything about my allignment, is an emotional appeal manipulative? Can you even argue that its scummy at all?

Any attempt to appeal to emotion in that case backfired so it didn’t succeed at being manipulative. But if we were to have given you the benefit of the doubt, dropped a few votes to allow you to regroup but still kept an eye on you, and later on you flip scum then yes that is an action with a manipulative purpose.

Well, since you are on the RC wagon, I don't doubt that that is true.

The vote count above this post disagrees with this statement. OGML: Did you think he was voting RC or did you think he was going to vote RC?

And now...
A very concise list of why I find Rhinox > RC > pops suspicious in that order:

Rhinox:

1. Appeal to emotion by saying he's playing like a VI when he was caught being contradictory but only had 2 votes on him at the time so the pressure seems inflated.
2. WIFOM of how scum do not fall themselves into obvious holes and keep digging themselves deeper.
3. Paired RC and pops by saying "a bad attempt at distancing" without giving other scenarios that don't pair them as scum.
4. Burden of proof on what you'll flip tomorrow.

RedCoyote:

1. Post 78 asks everyone to give their opinion on pops' suspicion without giving his own opinion first. Possibly feeling up a wagon to see if it's viable.
2. Said he was open to discussion role possibilities but didn't go into mafia roles. Selective to the SK role.
3. Misrepresenting Rhinox's position on SK talk. RC says Rhinox finds it "useless" day 1; Rhinox says it's better tomorrow when we know more.

popofctown:

1. Continuing to write fluff posts every now and then.
2. Joining a wagon with minimal effort to state reasons.

[Rhinox]

Sorry about the forthcoming wall... but you guys aren't really giving me much of a choice...

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

But yes, good job comparing scumbolina to you in a maneuver to not... appear... scummy.

It just seems more like you're selectively calling out tells... In your case on pops, I don't recall a point being "its scummy for pops to call bio scummy because of something he (pops) would have did as scum"

Just seems more like you're adding fuel to my plane thats crashing and burning.

I also realized a scum (sk) who was selectively calling out tells in a previous game. Meerkat manor mafia. Linked to it before. CKD said using varients of "to be honest..." was a valid scum tell. Bussed his scum partner with it. Later in the game, a townie used the phrase. CKD completely ignored it, until I pointed it out to him. Just to show that I have a precedent for thinking that selectively calling out tells is suspicious...

If its scummy for what it is, why the qualifier. Thats the issue. Much like RC's whole "self-preservation" move. Why qualify scummy behavior?

It wasn't a qualifier. It was just a nod to OGML, since we have a history. If I'd have left that line out, my point would still be completely valid.

Its like you two want me to want to lynch you, I swear.

I'm tellin' ya... guard jester... woulda been a big hit I think.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I understand now why players flake out and give up - there is literally nothing I can say now that isn't followed by an "ZOMG SCUM!!" (example: this will be quoted as another AtE... )

I'm a

Vanilla Townie, aka Officer Rhinox, a night watchman

. I'm claiming now because there is absolutely no way to defend myself right now. Either you believe me, or you don't. Also, I have unreliable access this weekend and into next week, so I don't want to cause any delays which may or may not interfere with deadline.

I've now seen 2 pretty clear cases laid out against me, by RC and Riot. I feel both are completely 1-sided and biased, completely ignoring everything I had to say in defense of myself, so I'll dedicate the rest of this post responding point by point to the 2 cases as sort of a final word on it. After that, if you guys decide to lynch me, I suggest tomorrow you look very hard at everyone on RC's wagon, (specifically those that switched from me to RC), as well as OGML. Its pretty clear that since I made myself so lynchalicious, scum would keep me around as an easy mislynch for later - maybe even outright defend me (I'm eyeing up bio and Rishi). OGML, I know from meta does not fall into confirmation bias, and when town, argues that simpler explanations are usually more accurate. In this game, the more the discussion goes on, the more outrageous the story becomes to continue to support his pet theory that RC and I are both scum.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Response to RC's case:

"No Random Vote"

Nothing too bad here as the game is just beginning. I just wanted to point out how I wasn't very fond of "I think such-and-such is anti-town, but I'm not going to talk about it".

I later come to Huntress' defense, and still think her position was justified in that breaking from the norm (RV) can indeed provoke an emotional response from other players. A response can easily lead to a great way to begin the game's discussion.

This is nothing but filler. Its a disagreement on game theory, and not an indication of allignment. I think not voting in the random stage hurts the town, or rather, limits the flow of information to the town. Think of how a game would go if nobody decided to random vote, or if nobody voted at all until they were "sure someone is scum". I decided not to make a big post on it at that point in the game because I was trying to prevent myself from going on tangents and making big posts so early in the game, and because similar conversations I've had have not added anything to the game. After being pressured for an explanation, I was happy to talk about it as long as necessary.

"Not Questioning MME as well as huntress"

This rubs me the wrong way too. It doesn't seem genuine.

I think it's more likely that Rhinox simply forgot about MME, he didn't notice him because he didn't write the same thing that Huntress wrote.

Again, nothing major, it just feels fake to me.

I've explained that I felt MME was just confirming at that point. Maybe he didn't know the game started, or maybe he didn't have time to do anything but confirm. My PM said to confirm in thread, so I came to the thread and quickly scrolled down to the quickreply box to just /confirm, until I realized other players were saying stuff other than confirming. Huntress, on the other hand, made a conscious decision to not vote.

Saying that "This feels fake" accomplishes nothing more than adding filler to my case...

Going back to earlier. Maybe Rhinox sincerely feels this way, but to me it sounds like he's going to great lengths to basically justify calling Huntress out for not voting.

Again, nothing but filler. I've pointed you to games where I've called out players for not random voting before. I'd say that pretty much means I'm sincere about it.

"Discussing the SK"

I don't see how this should be a point against me at all... The core of my argument has always been, "No town players decision should be effected D1 by assuming anything about factions". RC argues that decisions would change if we assume there is an sk, but I have still never seen a reason why. Is there anything scummy about my statement?

Extending on this, this is also partly why I'm suspicious of OGML (and now CF Riot as well)... they are assuming faction information to support a theory that says I'm scum. They are completely false assumptions. Its also circular logic. "I'm scum, so I must be a separate faction from RC. If I'm part of a separate faction, I'm scum..."

"Pairing up"

This is when I start to think Rhinox is bad news instead of just someone I have an honest disagreement with.

Nowhere in post 82 is pops defending me. In fact, contrarily, he says he's already getting a slight scum vibe off of me. pops makes it clear that he understands the point I was making, and that's about all I can get from it.

Moreover, pops was only addressing me to begin with because Rhinox asked him to. Is he setting pops up for certain circumstances?

I've already explained that it was an honest mistake where I forgot that I asked pops about you. Is that something scum would do more than town? If I'm scum, did I just think that 8 or 9 town players just would't have noticed that I specifically asked pops about you? Does this sound like something scum would intentionally do, knowing they would probably get called out for it?

That being said, when I realized my mistake, I dropped it. There is or never was any pairing up. I find it overdefensive to assume that me thinking pops was defending you means that I was trying to announce a scum pair - there are many reasons for a player to defend another player. It was like page 2, it seemed like something good to talk about.

I tell him in post 152 that his appeal isn't good enough for me. Essentially, I'm not writing this off as a simple mistake. Not only does Rhinox end up using this mistake to his advantage (discussed below) but his quick punishment of pops for "defending me" sounds completely artifical. The fact that he suggests pops

may be

attempting to distance himself from me by calling my position "slightly scummy" seems almost entirely founded in creating something out of nothing.

Key words: MAY BE. They carry the obvious implication: MAY NOT BE. Again, it was like page 2 or 3, and seemed like a nice conversation starter. At the time, my inconsistency was the fatal point, and prevented any good conversation from coming out of it. Saying I was trying to pair pops and RC is nothing more than looking back, after the fact, trying to post-rationalize it into something its not in an attempt to tie off every loose string to "prove" that I'm scum.

"Suspicious vs. Scummy"

Seriously? This is actually a point against me? wtf everyone... I have my definitions of suspicious vs. scummy: namely, suspicious = potentially scummy. I also use suspicious to mean, "I'm suspicious of everyone who's not confirmed town, no matter how pro-town they seem". What is possibly scummy about this? I really think this is just piling crap on top of other crap, in a quantity over quality sort of manner - basically, everything thrown at me so far has to be so construed and distorted to indicate that I'm scum - but because theres like 10,000 of these points, at least 1 of them must be true... and thats just a complete fallacy.

"WIFOM"

I feel like everything RC said in this block was completely slanted and manipulated... It reminds me a lot of the "ORLY Scum?" fallacy.

To boil down the entirely block into facts and not a creative writing short story, this is basically my entire use of WIFOM:

I'm asking the town to consider whether making a mistake/inconsistancy like I did is something that town are more likely to do, scum are more likely to do, or either can do equally.

Instead of actually answering the question and giving reasons, everybody just jumps to the conclusion of "ZOMG you're using

WIFOM

. You must be scum just trying to get us to ignore the point because town are just as likely to be inconsistent." The problem with this is, the obvious point is being overlooked: town is actually just as likely to be inconsistent, if not more likely. But, it makes me scum to point that out?

The reason my explanation posts about my inconsistancies were so emotional and extra wifomy is because I guess I put more weight onto my initial error than the rest of the town... If I would have seen that inconsistency made by another player, I'd have jumped all over it. I would have viewed it as a fatal mistake. So I was frantically and desparately trying to explain how it was just an honest mistake. I'm starting to get the feeling that the reason I'm being voted/suspected now has little if anything to do with the actual inconsistency I had, and more to do with me frantically trying to explain it. Thats discouraging, because basically thats saying that just the act of defending myself, and being honest, is actually making me look scummier. I'm starting to think it would have been better to lie and make up a BS excuse about it, or just try to forget it ever happened, than to actually give an honest explanation. So much for the idea that townies should never lie.

bionic refers to a meta game in which Rhinox and himself were both a part of. He implies that the mafia was actively using WIFOM to defend themselves, and asks why Rhinox appears to be blantantly using WIFOM here if that's the case.

Rhinox response was that the game wasn't "fresh in his head", despite it being his most recently completed game.

Refer to my last post for a response to this point.

Putting this statement under WIFOM for a specific reason. The point he's trying to make is that by not lynching him he will be able to prove he is town.

It's an appeal, it's as if he wants us to believe that if he were scum, he would not be able to create a "mountain of overwhelming townie play", but because he is town, he needs to be kept alive to do it.

Call it circular reasoning, call it WIFOM, call it an appeal... I'll just call it bad news.

No. Actually, I was saying that it was too early in the game to have a mountain of pro-town play, considering that my play up to that point had been poor. If I wouldn't be lynched, then that would be a chance to turn my game around and be pro-town. Thats not to say that only a town player can be pro-town, nor is that saying that it would "prove" that I'm town.

If you really thought I was scum at that point, but maybe having a little bit of a doubt, maybe it would have even been a good strategy to hope that I would be so worried about self-preservation that I would be so anxious to bus my scum partners to look pro-town, that I would actually lead the town to the rest of the scum.

And by the way, the last sentence of the quote above is a prime example of the manipulative spin all throughout RC's case on me - just a trick to make something sound a lot worse than it really is.

Ugh. It's like he says understands why his statement is scummy, but asks if it counts anyways (because Rhinox's statements are too scummy to be used by scum).

No, thats not what I said at all. What I said, in a melodramatic sarcastic way, is that nothing I could say would help me. And thats been proven to be true 100%. Nothing I have said has helped me, and everything I've said has just been digging a bigger hole. So it is true, and my statement does count.

"Passive-Aggression/Defeatism - Emotional Manipulation"

I have a personal tell that I look for. I say personal because I'm not sure if it is widely-recognized or not.

I don't like it when people get pessimistic.

To me, townies should always have some sort of zeal, some sort of indignation in their hearts when they are being voted or fear they are going to be lynched.

Granted, not everyone has the same sort of personality, but I will accept a townie getting supremely frustrated with their fellow players before I will accept a townie beating themselves up, even in jest, over being voted.

If you agree with that, then this statement would likely stand out to you as well.

I have not been pessimistic, I have not given up, and I have not beat myself up over being voted. I have beaten myself over making a stupid mistake, and any AtE I'm being accused of have been my honest feelings.

But as I said before, I can't really respond to any AtE without it sounding like another AtE, so I'll just leave it for what it is. As this is the only thing I don't really have an answer for, then I guess I can't really complain if you guys lynch me for excessive use of AtE. I think the rest of the stuff is twisted and distorted crap post rationalized to explain how every single post I've made somehow supports me being scum.

What I will say, as I've been saying all along, is... when I'm eventually revealed as town, then either I haven't been using AtE, or AtE isn't a valid scumtell. I guess I shouldn't be too worried about it though... This game should really help out my meta whenever I'm in a game where I'm

actually

scum... :shrug:

See my previous posts for an explanation about the "Cry me a River" Comment.

"Missing some pieces"

Moar filler please... Just more crap piled on in hopes to overwhelm with quantity.

Anyways, its pretty much par for the course for how I've been playing this game... I "forgot" Korts explanation because we each happened to be in 2 games together at the same time, and I got confused over what comments were made in which games.

"Summary"

Summary:

∙ Potential cover-up for his ignorance of MME, unnecessarily frustrated with Huntress and unwillingness to explain why

*I don't see this as a point, but I do see you spinning this in a way that makes it sound worse than it really was. I wasn't ignorant of MME, my frustration with huntress wasn't unnecessary (strange accusation coming from someone who's position has been that no conversation is useless), and I did explain myself.

∙ Potentially dragging out the SK argument longer than necessary, blowing parts out of proportion in order to detract from tells he has been exhibiting

*This point is a complete fabrication, and a stretch to come to this conclusion from our sk conversation. You're just as guilty as dragging out the argument longer than necessary as I am, and again, this is a very strange accusation coming from someone who doesn't think any conversation is useless or unnecessary. I dind't blow anything out of proportion, and nothing was meant as a distaction. The whole argument boils down to me asking you how the town should play differently if we assume there is an sk, and you skating around the answer, never giving a clear response.

∙ Intentionally misrepresenting the relationship between pops and myself based on circumstances he created

*So you're basically saying that I intentionally contradicted myself to try to get you and pops both lynched as scum partners, just hoping that nobody would notice my contradiction. I hope people realize how rediculous this accusation actually is...

∙ Retracting said misrepresentation noth with the motivation of clarification but rather with the continual motive of self-preservation

*motive of self-preservation... this is a new one. The retraction and subsequent defenses were honest. I've pretty much given all the ways I could have defended or explained my contradiction... I chose the "be straightforward and honest" approach. Is there any other way I could have clarified my action in a way that would have been honest, believeable, and not seemed like only self-preservation? If so, please tell...

∙ The flagrant, admitted use of WIFOM in order to make defensive statements

*I think I explained this well enough above

∙ A conspicuously close relationship with bionic that seems to produce little in the way of hunting.

*great... link me to someone else while you're at it. I must be playing really bad if I've given away my entire scum team on D1 (that was sarcasm, btw). Seriously, this point seems pulled out of thin air, as its the first time its been mentioned. But whatever you can do to continue to overwhelm with quantity, right?

∙ The flagrant, admitted use of appeals to manipulate other players in instances that are primarily preemptive but also in response specifically to those who show suspicion of him.

*As I've said, its only manipulative if I'm actually scum, making this circular reasoning. Unless you're trying to say that I'm being a manipulative townie. And I'm going to continue to pound this point home. When I'm eventually revealed as town, everyone will either have to admit that I wasn't using AtE, or that AtE aren't always reliable scum tells.

∙ Forgetting two important happenings in the game that have caused him to apologize for not properly reading/recalling the game (e.g. asking pops a question/Korts' activity)

*Right. Here's the point that I should be considered most suspicious for, but its kinda being thrown on as an afterthought. The actual act that sparked the entire D1 conversation isn't even a major point against me. Thats probably the most frustrating part.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Response to CF's presentation of the case:

This is a huge stretch, and AtE which Rhinox is guilty of throughout the day.

That was not a stretch at all. RC admitted he was talking about the sk to warn the town to take an sk into consideration when making night choices. The implication is that RC didn't think the town was smart enough to take into consideration all roles without someone telling them. The only emotion I was expressing was my own suprise in that being RC's reasoning for talking about the sk. And RC still never said how any town player should play differently, assuming there is an sk, on D1.

Of all the rolefishing accusations thrown at RC, I think this one by Rhinox stands out worse than any of them. He's blatantly asking for speculation on specific town power roles, and I see it as instigating on top of that.

Not role fishing at all... we have a list of all town roles in the game. I think if RC is so confident that assuming there is an sk will make any difference in how any one of those roles play D1, he should be able to go down that list and explain how at least 1 decision would be different than not assuming anything about factions.

I also ask you what your definition of role fishing is? The way I understand it, role fishing is trying to get information to slip out about a particular players role - clearly not what I'm asking. You might say this is role speculating, but as we already know every possible role in the game, there is nothing left to speculate about. Did you not realize the semi-openness of the game because you were just so anxious to jump on my wagon? At worst, its role theory speculating - i.e. A player is

role A

. That player can either assume there is an sk, or assume nothing about scum factions. Will that player's actions change at all as a result of either assumption? I believe the answer is no, and I believe RC has not effectively answered that question, despite his insistance to the contrary.

This is not only AtE, but it's calling out anyone who votes for him after this point, and is setting up for future lynches if he can shift the wagon from him today when he doesn't even know who will vote him yet.

Wow... I must be magical. I'm trying to shift a wagon off myself that doesn't even exist. Or didn't you realize that the wagon has been on RC much more than me so far.

This line is mega-BS. I assumed RC just forgot he was voting Rhinox when I read the post in question. But are you really trying to say he's scum slipping up because he's not paying attention, after the entire Pops fiasco where you claimed VI and said, "Scum wouldn't make such an obvious slip would they?" It's almost the exact same thing Rhinox did himself, except Rhinox admits to it while RC's looks like a simple mistake.

wtf... so just because I made a simple mistake, I lose the right to call anybody out the rest of the game for something that may or may not be a simple mistake?

Also, what bullshit is it that my simple mistake is viewed as anything but, but RC's simple mistake was automatically assumed to just be an honest mistake...

177 is a stretch that looks like fishing for a reason to press Korts, which is kind of minor. But it's also a misrep of Korts's stance on Pops, as pops was continuously posting fluff to hide non-contributing, while Korts's post was obviously a check-in until he made a real post.

I'm sure there will be something wrong with this explanation as well, but whatever... I feel a common fault of townies under pressure is that they become 100% defensive, and stop making cases. Then, right before they're lynched, someone throws on top "you haven't even been scum hunting all game, you've only been focused on not getting yourself lynched" as sort of a nail in the coffin. Its understandable thought... its hard to get a word out when you're getting screamed at from every direction. Despite being under enormous suspicion, I was at least trying to continue scumhunting, but even that turned out to be total phail due to an oversight on my part.

Rhinox has also been strongly pushing the RC wagon along, (see everything above) and yet he's doing so from the sidelines by holding his vote. He's devoting all his posts to attacking RC, and he hasn't called anyone else scummy, but he's not voting. Why? So he can shuck the responsibility for it when RC flips town. In 207 he calls out the entire RC wagon. Not those who hopped on, or those who look suspicious, the whole wagon. This is setting up a D2 vote if RC gets lynched and shielding from getting votes on D2 by having something to point at and say he was "against" the RC lynch.

Another case of spinning everything into a way that supports a theory... I haven't been pushing the RC wagon at all. We have been having a conversation. Maybe you've been a part of too many D1 1 on 1 assaults to realize that two players can disagree about something without tunneling in on each other. Maybe you'll also notice how I spoke up against the RC wagon after it quickly grew to L-1. I stand by my point that its extremely peculiar for everyone to say I'm so obvscum, yet use my logic and arguments to justify wagoning RC.

if I'm really scum, why would I speak out against the RC wagon, knowing that the obvious place for suspicion to turn back to would be right back at me? It wouldn't be a case of a scum (me) trying to look good by defending a townie (RC), it would be more like a case of a scum committing suicide by derailing a townie wagon knowing that I would be the next choice. Also, when RC was at L-1, I could have hammered. Of course, that means I would have probably been lynched tomorrow, but it would have prevented me from being lynched today, and would have given my scum partners a great opportunity to bus me tomorrow and ensure they all make it to D3 without any connections to me, as well as limiting the D2 conversation to how obvscum I was for hammering + all of D1.

^^ struck for sarcasm purposes... its wifom, so I better not say it. Even if it makes complete sense.

Backtracking. Obviously I might add. 254 is his first real vote in god knows how many pages, and it looks solidly like OMGUS to me.

Translation: lets throw out a couple more buzzword accusations... see how much bigger the pile of crap can get. Its not backtracking, obviously. Since you didn't explain why it is, I don't have to explain why its not. Also, its not OMGUS - I gave reasons for my vote. Asked asked questions, and waited for answers. If everyone wasn't allowed to ever vote for someone who was voting for them (and if thats always OMGUS, and if that always means the person doing it is scum), then all scum would ever have to do to ensure that they win is just vote a townie first. I believe it was OGML actually who taught me that little nugget of information.

For a vote to be OMGUS, it requires a lack of other explanation or reasons, which my vote did not lack. So no, sorry, not OGMLUS.
--------------------
Guys if every vote by a player for a player already voting him were automatically OMGUS, then all the scum would have to do to win is vote a townie first.

I agree with this, and it's another example of Rhinox squirming around with different explanations for scummy actions. (This is out of place, but I had it noted under IAUN instead of Rhinox for some reason, and I don't remember where it goes.)

This is complete BS... Does anyone even remember what sparked this lttle side rant? Rishi made a case about bio, and I said I didn't find bio scummy. Rishi asked me why I didn't find bio suspicious - which started this whole thing about suspicious vs. scummy...

So how bout instead of calling me scum for not agreeing with my definitions of words, somebody goes back and tell me how I'm scum for not agreeing with Rishi and thinking Bio was scummy. That might actually be something legitimate to add, instead of all this crap slinging that seems like nothing more than an attempt to overwhelm me into digging myself a bigger hole, or just giving up.

In conclusion ... I can't fathom how RC has more votes than [Rhinox].

WE AGREE! Only when I speak concerns about the RC wagon, I'm obvscum pushing the wagon from the sidelines, and when you do it its not?

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Premptive EBWOP for jah's cross post: Just acknowledging that I read it, and I think I've covered all the points in this post.

[OhGodMyLife]

V/LA for the next couple of days. Just found out somebody I knew was on the plane that crashed near Buffalo.