Mini 737 - Hack Poetry Mafia (Game Over)

[Spolium]

i have no idea who Ice9 is

I find this statement alarming. You don't know who Ice9 is?

nor do i check peoples posting frequency or location as a matter of habit

Neither do I, but if the scope of meta available for a player was pertinent to something I wanted to know then I would consider it prudent to check their post history.

so i dislike people referring to meta in most cases, and when they do i prefer to question them on it and find out where they are getting it(unless i agree with them).

Interesting. Is there any particular reason that you didn't raise such concerns when I employed meta to explain Budja's actions?

[fhqwhgads]

I'm WAY out of this game, reading and will post then.

[don_johnson]

i have no idea who Ice9 is

I find this statement alarming. You don't know who Ice9 is?

i know he is in this game. i have never played in a game with them before.

nor do i check peoples posting frequency or location as a matter of habit

Neither do I, but if the scope of meta available for a player was pertinent to something I wanted to know then I would consider it prudent to check their post history.

which is part of why i asked the question. time is avaluable resource and i don't like to waste it. by asking questions i can narrow down where i need to look to find evidence myself.

so i dislike people referring to meta in most cases, and when they do i prefer to question them on it and find out where they are getting it(unless i agree with them).

Interesting. Is there any particular reason that you didn't raise such concerns when I employed meta to explain Budja's actions?

didn't catch it. i haven't had time to read everything and so have been skimming some posts. you guys are going on about quite a bit. i plan on rereading as much as i can before voting, but once we kicked out of the poetry it became a bit harder to follow.

also, note that i said "in most cases" meaning if you aren't using meta to make a major point, i am not going to fight with you. i pointed to meta when i voted springlullaby, but i didn't try to build a case on her for it. in Budja's case, i was asking a question to clarify their own statment for myself.

[Lynx The Antithesis]

First off how the hell can don not know who Ice9 is? Either not really paying attention to the game and trying to act like he's contributing or something just severely damaged his brain since his last post.

Now I've been unable to post all weekend and probably most people were in the same boat considering that Goat and Spolium made up nearly all of the posts. On an ungame related note, Goat and Spolium, you post some really long-wided responses. It's a lot of work even reading so imagine you guys put alot of damn thought into writing them.

Now I've read over your exchange maybe three times and the main reasons for discussion surround the Fhq and Spring business. As well as the whole coaching thing. Well in regards to Fhq and Spring, I think Goat was in the right on both accounts. I think Fhq was suspicious not because of the coaching, but because the implication of his statement and the change of direction he tried to institute. First, to imply that Budja's was being pushed by scum was a reach for me. It was a good way to really get out of the random stage and his acted did deserve some pressure. I didn't like the switch to the attack on the lurkers either as we were already gaining useful discussion from many players.


On the same token, I do feel like Ice evaded giving us a response to Spolium. Now there may have been much in the way to respond to necessariy, but the rather quick transition to a string of questions came off suspcious to me. Those questions come off looking as pro-town and useful scum hunting. In reality, they really produced nothing in the way of useful information. I think it was just an easy way to escape a true look into his pressure from Spolium, while still maitaining an appearance of towniness. Now I don't agree with the "continued evasion" labeling of Ice because it only happened once, but I do believe the first move was certainly evasion.

I also agree that a few of Spring's attackers were hypocritcal for not saying anything about earlier discussion, then jumping on him when they weren't contributing either. I'm one of the people who attacked Spring as well. Though I felt I made my stance clear on the earlier debate. I'm not liking Spring's play now even more so now because any useful information generated from a townie pulling off such a move would have been revealed by now. Now he's just not giving us anything to get a read off him which is getting scummier the longer he stays quiet. Now's the time to tell us what you gained from simply "watching"

[don_johnson]

First off how the hell can don not know who Ice9 is? Either not really paying attention to the game and trying to act like he's contributing or something just severely damaged his brain since his last post.

sorry guys, is Ice9 famous or something? i know he's in the game. i stated that. i have some interaction with them. that doesn't mean i know them well. i have never played in a game with them before, therefore i have no grasp as to whether Budja was referring to meta or this game. why is this an issue?

[Lynx The Antithesis]

Its not I thought you meant like you didn't know who was he was as in you never heard of him even with this game. Which made it seem like you weren't paying attention to the game if you didn't know who he was since he's a pretty key figure so far. Forget it now I took it wrong my fault.

[fhqwhgads]

Ok,

Listen, seeing as it is a HUGE part of discussion, I'm going to give an explanation for my post on Budja:

I said that his retraction seemed sincere and thus his scummyness was lowered in my opinion. I also didn't really believe all the arguments against him was from scum alone. Goat just stood out because he was pushing the hardest at that time (I'm sorry if you think I implied you were scum). I do think everyone has ignored the fact that spolium pointed out his gameplay was verified by his meta. This was also one of the bases of my argument that we shouldn't tunnel on Budja, which I felt was happening at the time.

On the coaching front, I can see why you say that, but it certainly wasn't intentional. It was more of a challenge to Budja to defend himself more. This, in my opinion is a GOOD thing, because if he really is scum, it gives us more chance to catch a slip or a logical fallacy. Just accepting him as town at that time would have been more of a mistake, in my opinion.

Regarding the ice/spolium/goat debate. I'm kinda seeing both of their points. Goat's interpretations of my actions are valid, hence me trying to clear it up. Spolium read me pretty spot on and most of his arguments about my actions are spot on, hence I'm not going to repeat them here.

However, the argument about ice's dismissal of spolium's case perked my interest. I see the argument that he's not really being scummy of ignoring it if he stated he's going to ignore it, but the fact that he dismissed the WHOLE argument as OMGUS (which I believe is wrong) is what really makes piques my interest.

On another note, I probably should remove my random vote;

Unvote

[Jebus]

Hai, sorry for delay in my post.

I'm going to read the game in a couple of hours after I finish my paper, so for now if you've got anything you want me to look at specifically, make note of it so I see it when I read up. Thanks

[RedCoyote]

@RedCoyote

- In #72 you said to FHQ that "I have to admit I agree with Ice9 and Goat's suspicions of you". However, in #116 you said "I can't say I do much either" in reply to Budja's stated dislike for the FHQ case. I can't seem to find why this turnaround occurred, or even where it occurred. Can you explain?

Oh God Spolium, don't make me look at that.

I think you caught me being hypocritical.

A couple of my other games are at a fever pitch at the moment so I'm kind of giving them more of my attention I'm afraid.

There's nothing I can really do there but give you townie points for catching that. I'm not going to try and weasel my way out of what I said in those posts; I contradicted myself.

What I said in post 116 is inaccurate, I do find the suspicions of fhq justified.

And I can't give you a good reason for saying what I did to Budja. It's almost like, my gut tells me fhq is sincerely trying to stand up for Budja, but my brain tells me that fhq is suspicious.

Like you, I think Goat makes a good case against him.

---

I think spring should post sooner rather than later, and I think if she doesn't pick up activity that the

Mod should not be hesistant to replace her

.

[TonyMontana]

springlullaby

and

Azhrei

prodded

[don_johnson]

I also agree that a few of Spring's attackers were hypocritcal for not saying anything about earlier discussion, then jumping on him when they weren't contributing either. I'm one of the people who attacked Spring as well. Though I felt I made my stance clear on the earlier debate. I'm not liking Spring's play now even more so now because any useful information generated from a townie pulling off such a move would have been revealed by now. Now he's just not giving us anything to get a read off him which is getting scummier the longer he stays quiet. Now's the time to tell us what you gained from simply "watching"

springlullaby is female. or so she says. methinks she may have bailed.

There's nothing I can really do there but give you townie points

for catching that. I'm not going to try and weasel my way out of what I said in those posts; I contradicted myself.

in return, can he give you "scummie" points? just kidding.
but seriously, you feel that Goat has made a good case against Budja?

[Goatrevolt]

Fhq - Why are you sorry that I interpreted your post as placing suspicion on me? If you had to vote someone right now, who would it be, and why?

[Azhrei]

Sorry guys, I haven't had a lot of time lately, schools started and I'm pretty busy. Can't say much nw, im about to leave. I'll try and catch up tonight

[springlullaby]

I'm not sure how to take that replacement comment. Don't you want to see if I lurk all the the way?

[Lynx The Antithesis]

I'm not sure how to take that replacement comment. Don't you want to see if I lurk all the the way?

No. How is that even fun for the game? Oh and sorry for calling you he.

[Goatrevolt]

I'm not sure how to take that replacement comment. Don't you want to see if I lurk all the the way?

Why are you lurking?

[Jebus]

Hai, I'm here now.
Though my poetry can be fail.
And despite the length
Here's my game scale:

I'ma hold off on the poetry for the important parts, anyway. I've found it somewhat more time consuming to follow, when time is of the essence, or something like that

Anyway, right off I'm getting scum-vibes from fhqwhgads, though I'm not quite sure why. Just the feeling of his posts, I guess.

Post 30 - Ice9. I like this guy's style, though taking something in the RVS as serious is not quite something I'm fond of. I thought what he was referring to wasn't anything to look at, in particular :/

Post 32 - Budja jumps on wolfwagon. I like this move.

Post 35 - RedCoyote. About halfway through he declares the RVS over, something I've learned is a bad move. Other than that, good kickoff post.

Post 44 - Ice9 said: "I do find it interesting that Red Coyote is trying to cover for him." Though I disagree, I'd like to look into this somewhat further.

prose?
i suppose...
now,noone knows
how far we could take it?
best mafia game ever,
had we chosen to make it.

I believe the word would be 'epic'.

Post 52 - Another statement I'd like to look into further.

Post 53+54 - Budja defends by doing something previously noted as a could-be scum technique. Dependent tell, imo.

Post 55 - RC with a little bit of his position on Budja (though virtually meh~)

Post 58 - Something about this, though I can't put a finger on it, just screams "OMG I'M SCUM" to me. Kinda like the "I'm here, but I'm also off to the side where you can't see me." Very dependent tell.

Post 60 - Scratch what I said for 52, Budja's admittance of playing badly takes away that suspicion. I'd have expected someone to walk around it rather than backing off completely. Good move, either way.

Post 67 - fhqwhgads: "I am however, willing to accept Budja's retraction. I just get this funny feeling that he's being the scapegoat here..."
The mention of this is very noteworthy to me.

Post 69 - Sort of helps solidify the scumvibes I have towards fhqwhgads. (This one was by Goatrevolt)

Post 73 - Spoliom with a generally overreacted (imo) post against Ice, saying he jumps to conclusions. Only one or two of the 7~ quotes you have actually support that idea, imo.

Post 77 - BAD, springlullaby. Lurking when you've got time to post is anti-town.

Post 83 - Ice adequate responce to Spoliom 73.

Post 87 - Springlullaby: "I have an opinion alright, but nothing I feel strongly about, so I'm not wasting my breath. For the time being, I'm happy to watch. What you makes of it doesn't concerns me."
Post it anyway, it could give us a moderate idea or two.

Post 88:

Thought you weren't an active lurker? Well now you are. It's such a convenient excuse that you're happy to watch. The next end game I'm in I'll have to be sure to use it.

lolumwot? (aka, what are you saying?)

Post 96 - Spoliom: "Preview Edit: I see Ice9 has managed to call OMGUS on me, refuse to address new arguments against him and demand better answers from those who answered his questions, all at the same time. Quelle surprise."
Valid, though goes two ways - butting heads, as he said, gets us nowhere fast (and gives us mountains of text to read). Going around it and freshening the hunt helps about as much, but has greater growing potential. And better he announce it than flatout ignore your points. Still pro-town thinking, though.

Post 98 - RC: "Opportunistic or not, spring's comment was unacceptable."
So why've you not voted Spring over Budja yet?

Post 105 -

I have to say I don't really like the fhq case.
Fhq said that he considered me a scapegoat after I had stated my actions.
I think he was just trying to stop the town becoming too tunnel-visioned, not that that was a problem in this case. A few people have also at least partly accepted my explanation (e.g Spolium,Lynx). I don't see why fhq should be singled out here

What singled out fhqwhgads for me was how he said it - he thought you were being used as a scapegoat. The general connotation of the post was just off.

Post 131 - Strong recovery, fhqwhgads.


Current list of scum/town:

Azhrei - ~?
Budja - ~town
don_johnson - ~town
fhqwhgads - ~town
Goatrevolt - ~town
Ice9 - ~town
Lynx - ~town
Plonky - ~hello who are you
RedCoyote - ~scum
Spolium - ~scum
springlullaby - ~anti-town town

My scum'd be, then, RedCoyote and Spolium. This is to be looked into later, since at the moment I've not got enough solid case to put up that'd withstand general activity/etc.


Overall, the quote-wars and walls of text are excruciatingly painful to read. I'm aware of the hippocracy, but if we could avoid making every post something that makes China's Great Wall look tiny...

On the Spolium/Ice front, it seems to me from my skimming that it seems to be a bit circular, and getting not too far not too fast.

Any questions for me now?

[Jebus]

EP: Oh, and

Vote: Springlullaby

The reasoning should be obvious.

[RedCoyote]

in return, can he give you "scummie" points? just kidding.
but seriously, you feel that Goat has made a good case against Budja?

Far be it from me to tell player's how to assign their scummy points, I can only point them in the right direction.

And did you mean to say fhq instead of Budja there?

I think Goat has made a good case against fhq, and I would not be opposed to an fhq lynch today.

I still think Budja is the better choice.

---

I'm not sure how to take that replacement comment. Don't you want to see if I lurk all the the way?

I hope you take my comment seriously. I've played with you before where you didn't lurk.

How is one supposed to analyze a player who doesn't play?

---

springlullaby - ~anti-town town

...

My scum'd be, then, RedCoyote and Spolium. This is to be looked into later, since at the moment I've not got enough solid case to put up that'd withstand general activity/etc.

Vote: Springlullaby

The reasoning should be obvious.

Explain how the reasoning is obvious when your conclusion is completely different from your vote.

FoS: Jebus

[RC] why've you not voted Spring over Budja yet?

Because I have no basis to vote spring.

I mean, pressure votes don't work if the person just doesn't want to play the game. That's why I asked that the Mod take a firmer stance toward her if need be.

If she doesn't think this game is interesting enough to comment on, or whatever her exact terminology was, then she should excuse herself. I mean that in as inoffensive and as impersonal way as possible.

The town is going to have a very difficult time reading her if her activity stays the way it is. It gets people unusually incensed (with good reason) and it gives the scum such a great opportunity to draw attention away from themselves.

So, to answer your question, I don't like the way spring is playing, and that certainly makes me suspicious, but at the moment I'm not prepared to say she is scum.

[Goatrevolt]

EP: Oh, and

Vote: Springlullaby

The reasoning should be obvious.

Oh, I'm sure the reasoning of why you're suspicious of SL is obvious enough. The reason why you decided to vote "anti-town town" over "scum" isn't.

If she doesn't think this game is interesting enough to comment on, or whatever her exact terminology was, then she should excuse herself. I mean that in as inoffensive and as impersonal way as possible.

I agree. Seriously, if you're going to keep up with prods but have no intention of actually playing, you might as well just replace out.

[Spolium]

Post 32 - Budja jumps on wolfwagon. I like this move.

Can you be more specific? Why do you like it, exactly?

Post 35 - RedCoyote. About halfway through he declares the RVS over, something I've learned is a bad move.

Same goes for this - why would you consider such a declaration to be a "bad move"?

Post 67 - fhqwhgads: "I am however, willing to accept Budja's retraction. I just get this funny feeling that he's being the scapegoat here..."
The mention of this is very noteworthy to me.

Noteworthy in what sense?

I have to say I don't really like the fhq case.
Fhq said that he considered me a scapegoat after I had stated my actions.
I think he was just trying to stop the town becoming too tunnel-visioned, not that that was a problem in this case. A few people have also at least partly accepted my explanation (e.g Spolium,Lynx). I don't see why fhq should be singled out here

What singled out fhqwhgads for me was how he said it - he thought you were being used as a scapegoat. The general connotation of the post was just off.

Can you elaborate on what you consider to be "

the general connotation of the post

"?

Additionally, perhaps you could explain why you've labelled me as likely scum? You pointed out that I overreacted, and that despite the lack of progress in butting heads with Ice my thinking was nonetheless "pro-town". What is it exactly that makes you think I'm scum?

The Spring vote discrepency has already been highlighted by others, but I'll third the request for an explanation as it is such a significant oversight.

[springlullaby]

I'm not sure how to take that replacement comment. Don't you want to see if I lurk all the the way?

Why are you lurking?

I haven't had my epiphany about this game yet and I'm waiting for it.

Also, for the sake of being contrary, a little. Which is interesting in itself.

[Plonky]

Um, I have just read the thread and consequently have a huge headache and am extremely grumpy. Seriously, the walls of text that have already emerged I imagine are limiting participation - I know that at times, I've just been lost.

I will post later.

[Spolium]

Also, for the sake of being contrary, a little. Which is interesting in itself.

A little...?

I must've missed something - to what do you refer in this comment?

[don_johnson]

And did you mean to say fhq instead of Budja there?

no i did not. that's why i asked.

And I can't give you a good reason for saying what I did to Budja. It's almost like, my gut tells me fhq is sincerely trying to stand up for Budja, but my brain tells me that fhq is suspicious.

Like you, I think Goat makes a good case against

him

.

i couldn't tell who the

him

referred to.

i have to agree in wanting some explanation from jebus. i know the whole townie/scum list is common when one replaces in, but spolium and goat have pointed out peculiar "inconsistencies"(if you can call them that). of interest to me is why you vote "anti-town" over scummy. i hate situations like this. once out of the rvs you should be voting who you find scummiest. if you don't have a "scummiest" player then you vote for pressure. if you have a "scummiest" player, but vote elsewhere for "pressure", you then siphon away much of the actual pressure from your vote. leaving town with nothing but headaches trying to figure out why you would do such a thing.