Mini 720 - SPQR Mafia {Game Over}

[Patrick]

Ugh, this really was a painful one to watch after death and won't hold many happy memories. I could write loads about this, but it's probably not a good idea.

Assmaster should have been replaced on day 1 or 2, and as it turned out, his timing deprived town of a vote at a crucial time (though in this specific case, it probably wouldn't have helped). I'm fairly sure there was some point where he didn't post for 13 days, which according to the rules seems more than enough to be replaced.

The idea of the setup is presumably to make scum defend each other alot more than usual, and it was interesting, but too swingy for my liking. If the Godfather is lynched early, scum have very poor chances, especially since they've likely been defending him. It's a bit too much to put into one role, IMO. Having said that, dahill was ridiculously scummy and somehow never got lynched, so maybe high profile partners does counterbalance that. On the other side of the coin, 3 scum and a survivor means the town can be in some kind of semi-lylo in day 2. I thought scum could have claimed better on day 3 - maybe one of them claims hider who hid with dahill night 1. That would almost certainly be believed for balance reasons, and explains away part of the odd dahill defence; and even if the game had another day, nobody would expect a hider to pull a nightkill. Having one of Glork or Incognito claim masons with dahill might have worked too - and I expected it to happen after EA backed off Glork/dahill in a way that implied he thought that was the case.

For the record, my comment at the end of day 1 didn't refer to our nightkill making Glork more of a suspect. It merely meant that he should be run up because we wouldn't be around to do it; basically he was obviously scum at that point. I don't actually think that affected who scum killed at all, though.

Ether was scarily accurate, in retrospect. She nearly posted some comment about there being 3 scum in (Yos2, Glork, Incognito, dahill), or 4 scum in that group if an SK existed.

Well done scum, even though I think Incognito was the only one who was remotely convincing. There were a few points for the town where the puzzle was looking close to solved, but it just never seemed to translate to a lynch.

[Patrick]

Ugh, this really was a painful one to watch after death and won't hold many happy memories. I could write loads about this, but it's probably not a good idea.

Assmaster should have been replaced on day 1 or 2, and as it turned out, his timing deprived town of a vote at a crucial time (though in this specific case, it probably wouldn't have helped). I'm fairly sure there was some point where he didn't post for 13 days, which according to the rules seems more than enough to be replaced.

The idea of the setup is presumably to make scum defend each other alot more than usual, and it was interesting, but too swingy for my liking. If the Godfather is lynched early, scum have very poor chances, especially since they've likely been defending him. It's a bit too much to put into one role, IMO. Having said that, dahill was ridiculously scummy and somehow never got lynched, so maybe high profile partners does counterbalance that. On the other side of the coin, 3 scum and a survivor means the town can be in some kind of semi-lylo in day 2. I thought scum could have claimed better on day 3 - maybe one of them claims hider who hid with dahill night 1. That would almost certainly be believed for balance reasons, and explains away part of the odd dahill defence; and even if the game had another day, nobody would expect a hider to pull a nightkill. Having one of Glork or Incognito claim masons with dahill might have worked too - and I expected it to happen after EA backed off Glork/dahill in a way that implied he thought that was the case.

For the record, my comment at the end of day 1 didn't refer to our nightkill making Glork more of a suspect. It merely meant that he should be run up because we wouldn't be around to do it; basically he was obviously scum at that point. I don't actually think that affected who scum killed at all, though.

Ether was scarily accurate, in retrospect. She nearly posted some comment about there being 3 scum in (Yos2, Glork, Incognito, dahill), or 4 scum in that group if an SK existed.

Well done scum, even though I think Incognito was the only one who was remotely convincing. There were a few points for the town where the puzzle was looking close to solved, but it just never seemed to translate to a lynch.

[Glork]

you guys are morons

Seriously, town was really bad this game. I would have won, too, if the bastards didn't dick me over: either I would have helped push a dahill lynch, which would have given the town a great chance, or I would have won with the scum.

Also, Incog was *incredible*. Best performance by a scum in a while.

In all fairness, if you had given us any reason to believe that you were a survivor, we wouldn't have touched you.


Patrick: I had considered claiming masons with Dahill on D2 when Dahill was in trouble, but after re-reading my own posts on D1, decided it would have been too inconsistent.

Also, the chief purpose in all of us claiming vanilla was to ensure that, even if there was a power role, that the town would believe there to be only two scums, thus making our ability to quicklynch much easier. Though Tuber actually dropped the hammer, I think our claiming strategy accomplished exactly what we set out to do.

And your comment absolutely affected who we killed. To quote myself in the QuickTopic:

Pathetric dies, definitely... I would have been very hesitant to kill them up until Ether basically said "if we die tonight, seriously look at Glork."

I accidentally said Ether instead of Patrick, but that completely changed my mind about who to kill, because up until that post I was mentally gearing up to take you head-on throughout Day Two.

[Simenon]

you guys are morons

Seriously, town was really bad this game. I would have won, too, if the bastards didn't dick me over: either I would have helped push a dahill lynch, which would have given the town a great chance, or I would have won with the scum.

Also, Incog was *incredible*. Best performance by a scum in a while.

In all fairness, if you had given us any reason to believe that you were a survivor, we wouldn't have touched you.

I wasn't fantastic in this game, but my plan was to make myself an unattractive enough player to avoid being nightkilled (hence the extreme abrasiveness of my character, because that's what this alt really was).

[Simenon]

Most survivors survive by either indicating that they are a survivor or attempting to go under the radar. I wanted to test whether the opposite was also a viable strategy for a survivor. I definitely think it is.

[Incognito]

Also, Incog was *incredible*. Best performance by a scum in a while.

Wow thanks a lot, Sim!

I was really quite surprised when you flipped as a Survivor. We thought that of the remaining what we thought to be pro-towners, you were the most town-ish and this was the reason we decided to kill you off (plus you along with charter and Tuberkulos were pushing for a dahill1-lynch during Day 2 but by that time, you seemed to have slightly more "voice" in the town when compared to those two, which was terrifying).

you guys are morons

Seriously, town was really bad this game. I would have won, too, if the bastards didn't dick me over: either I would have helped push a dahill lynch, which would have given the town a great chance, or I would have won with the scum.

Also, Incog was *incredible*. Best performance by a scum in a while.

In all fairness, if you had given us any reason to believe that you were a survivor, we wouldn't have touched you.

This is probably true -- Sim would have made the LyLo situation a bit easier numbers-wise, but I'm afraid he probably would have just continued pushing a dahill1-lynch, which would have made it more difficult for us to win in practice.

[Yosarian2]

I was so sloppy on days one and two, it wasn't even funny.

But honestly, the town has nobody to blame but themselves. Xtoxm imploded Day One, and Yos led the charge against him, for the most part. Then Yos imploded on Day Two. And that made Day Three mostly elementary.

I didn't implode. I was in the process of setting up a trap for you, because I was so damn sure you were scum but I knew I didn't have enough to get you lynched yet. And it was working; you had already voted for me, but were refusing to explain why; I would have had you day 2. Then EA went after me for a crap reason, and I got all distracted...bah. Frustrating

Oh well. Well played, scum. Incog played incredibly well, he had me completly fooled; I'll make sure to keep an eye on him next time...

[dahill1]

I agree I probably would've gone down waaay faster if not for Glrok + Incog.
Planning on working my scum game a lot for next time around

[Ether]

I'm kind of bitter about this; I feel like the only reason we didn't lynch Dahill on Day 1 and subsequently force a win was the fact that he vanished for a perfectly understandable winter vacation.

Anyway, nominating Incognito for a title.

[Patrick]

The scum claiming strategy did achieve the desired effect, I'm just pointing out that against sterner resistance another strategy might have turned out better. Had dahill been lynched day 3, scum would still have likely lost, as people would have quickly figured out that the lack of nightkills were connected somehow with dahill's death - since there was no other role that could account for it - and once people make that leap, those unnatural looking defences of dahill start looking even worse.

Most survivors survive by either indicating that they are a survivor or attempting to go under the radar. I wanted to test whether the opposite was also a viable strategy for a survivor. I definitely think it is.

Did you push dahill over Yos on day 2 because you thought he was more likely to be scum, or were you at that point trying to keep scum alive?

[Simenon]

Did you push dahill over Yos on day 2 because you thought he was more likely to be scum, or were you at that point trying to keep scum alive?

Well, I thought nobody could kill someone who says "I'm going to hold off of this wagon until the last minute to make a statement." Too reckless a townie to keep alive.

[charter]

I still don't see why we didn't lynch dahill day one.

Thanks for modding OGML!

[Elmo]

Lulz. I read the game after I replaced in and went "damn, I really really wish I were scum right now". Do I even need to say anything more? gg

Apparently I'm cursed or something in OGML games, sorry about the lack of being around but it really, really couldn't be helped. :/

[Tuberkulos]

Incog played the best game. I was quite sure that he was town the whole time...

It's funny how I always had a bad feeling about Glork, but couldn't really put a finger on it so I just let it go.

Even though I was absent almost 50% of the game, I really liked to play with experienced players. I actually learned a thing or two.

[destructor]

sigh

Scum out-played us. Congrats. Incog gets MVP, fo shure. Glork's explosions on Elmo and I were actually really effective and it took us a while to realise that we needed to ignore him if we were going to actually get any scum-hunting done.

I'm glad I was right about 3/4 of my suspects from the get go. I'm thoroughly disappointed that the only one I got to lynch was the one I was wrong about.

I'm wondering if Elmo and I could have changed thing if we both didn't have serious access issues throughout. =/

Thanks for the game OGML. Thanks for double-heading with me Elmo. Thanks for playing everyone.

[Ether]

(5:49:56 PM) CaffieneDeity: Glork and Incognito are going to be scum together in OGML's game and try to pass this off as proof that they are not alts.
(5:49:59 PM) CaffieneDeity: Don't fall for it.

[OhGodMyLife]

I think that this game proves that most people on MS are too eager to bus their scumpartners. As Glork pointed out, if his scumgroup hadn't been hampered as it was his natural instinct would have been to bus dahill on day one, but he protected him instead and the scum managed a spotless win.

The design of this game started with the idea of forcing scum to keep multiple members alive to endgame and evolved from there. I would not repeat the role mechanic I used for Mark Antony, but not because it in itself is too swingy, which I don't think it is. Its just that it really limited what kind of town power I could include - roleblocking and tracking were right out the window, and I wanted to make sure he was immune to any investigative role I included. I also really enjoy heavily mountainous games. I'm interested in feedback on the Brutus-Caesar-Octavius mechanic as well if anyone has any comments.

Congratulations to Incog for playing a great game, as many of the players have already commented. But also to Glork and dahill, who despite apparently being disappointed with their own play deserve credit for taking down the win in the face of a barrage of suspicion on both of them.

I'd also like to say that I think Corio/Sim played a fantastic game. Survivor is a really, really hard role to play well, and one that I never thought as a game designer I would include, but it fit this game very well flavor wise and from a mostly mountainous standpoint - there isn't a more vanilla third party role. I'm not one to take sides in a game I mod, but I was disappointed when he got nightkilled.

[Glork]

I can't say that I would have tossed Dahill under the bus, but I certainly would not have gone way out of my way to defend him like I did.

[Elmo]

I think that this game proves that most people on MS are too eager to bus their scumpartners.

Not really. Dahill would have been lynched on day 1 except for people being stupid about Xtoxm, and he would've been lynched on day 2 except for me pushing Yos. All it shows is that scum can do pretty much whatever they want if the town collectively is an epic failure, and it's dumb to rely on that happening. (shrug)

I rather like the setup but I do think it's too swingy, personally; pretty much what Patrick already said. If dahill1 had been lynched day 1 and I was in e.g. Glork's shoes, I'd be pissed off at the setup. Thanks for modding, anyhow. My opinion of short games is a bit mixed, I'm happy this didn't last very long, but I would probably have felt rushed if I'd been able to play.

I think town would probably have lost if we'd lynched dahill on day 2, although it would have been less of a walkover. If Glork or Incog had been GF in roughly the same situation, I have no idea how what I could have done; like I said, it just seemed completely fucked, even if the scum were mod-confirmed to me. You've a) got basically nothing solid to build a case against anyone on since d1 was such a shitstorm, b) basically everyone else thinks Incog/Glork are town or at least not at all scummy c) virtually every townie in the game is a possible mislynch. Even if me and Des were both actually here, I'm really not sure how one 'role' is going to wade through that. I'm curious if anyone else shares the view, I don't want to try and avoid a fair portion of the blame, but I just don't know what I'm meant to take away from this game.

I'm curious that no-one seems to be criticising me for pushing Yos' lynch, it seems like a really fucking stupid mistake to me, he even seemed obviously town to me on my initial read-through; I have an obscure explanation for why I made it, but no-one cares. It would be nice if people just bluntly said what they thought of my play, really.

I'm kind of conflicted about Sim. I correctly predicted he'd be killed off, and I was sad to see that, but I don't think he played "well" as a survivor. I think his idea could work, but he just seemed far and away the most pro-town player, and I don't get why he'd put himself in that position, it just seems obvious what's going to happen. I do think it's nicer than just epic lurking, though; I have thought about doing something similar if I ever got a survivor role, but then it's the kind of role I'd hate to have to play.

[Assmaster]

Yeah. I'm not going to play another game in a long long while.

Incog was good, though. I thought he was scum and tried to make a case on him day 2ish, but there was just nothing there that would have been convincing.

[Yosarian2]

I'm curious that no-one seems to be criticising me for pushing Yos' lynch, it seems like a really fucking stupid mistake to me, he even seemed obviously town to me on my initial read-through; I have an obscure explanation for why I made it, but no-one cares. It would be nice if people just bluntly said what they thought of my play, really.

That was actually why I thought you were probably scum; when you first said "Elmo thinks Yos is town and Des thinks Yos is scum", I totally bought that; you can usually read me pretty well, I think, whereas Des seems to always think I'm scum. Then when you suddenly flipped on me after I went after EA, I decided you were probably his scum partner.

I will mention that it's really difficult and frustrating to debate a double-head. Between you, Des, and Glork all dropping walls of words on me, I literally was not capable of responding to everything that was said to me; it just wasn't possible.

[Glork]

Elmo, I'm still 100% confused as to how you could possibly have thought that the "Imperial Threat" equated to Caesar without bringing flavor into the equation.

[Elmo]

whereas Des seems to always think I'm scum

It's funny you mention that, he said your play was really close to Crackers, and I argued it was totally different. Your reaction to my flip makes sense, I thought EA was scum until Des assured me otherwise. I think the short deadlines amplified the problem of the amount of stuff... I think my posts were relatively short, but, well, see sig .

Glork, imperial means "related to an empire or emperor", and the word for emperor in several languages (German Kaiser, Russian Czar) is descended from the latin Caesar. So imperial is literally synonymous with Caesar. That and the fact the town role PM basically says "you're here to kill Caesar, you win when the imperial threat is gone". It's pretty obvious that A = B.

[Glork]

But you're still pulling from out-of-game, theme-centered sources to draw this connection, which is still a

flavor argument

. I would also argue that, even if I agreed that "Imperial" is synonymous with "Casear," that "the Imperial threat" would not be, due to a number of political ties, including Caesar's self-chosen successor. I think that if Casesar's death meant the end of the game, that it would explicitly have said that we won when Casear died, and not when "the Imperial threat" had ended.

[Elmo]

Where am I pulling from outside the game in what I posted? Beyond that, I honestly don't understand what you're trying to do.