Promised I would catch up. Fair warning, this is gonna be a big one...
BSG wrote:This has caught my attention as well. My actual rolename isn't named. From the look of the comments given by freeko and Vi, they weren't told if they wre masons or neighbours. All there was stated was that they didn't know the other allignment. So if this is the case as well with Raider, Juls and Korts (Is your role name mentioned in your PM or not), then there is a clash with the role PM you've got with those of ours. If two of the three mentioned above have their real role name mentioned, I'm willing to leave this aside. So Juls, Raider and Korts, could you please state if your role name is mentioned in your PM or not?
My roll PM and I don't have a typical role name - just a flavor name and description. I don't see how you can infer that mine did from the question I asked you, and I also don't see why it matters.
BSG wrote:And Rhinox, I'd like to know what is more scummier to you: Asking for a role name trade (like freeko did) or 'fishing' for a flavor name (like I did)?
Actually, I find both to be rather scummy. Probably, in a vacuum, I would find freeko's comment scummier, but we aren't in a vacuum. There are contexts to consider, such as freeko's claim, and all other actions.
BSG wrote:Rhinox, all the assumptions you have made in post 416, are completely wrong. Me and freeko have completely different roles, so how should I be able to compare it. And based upon the information I have received in my PM, I can tell you that scum don't have a reason to flavor fish names...
But this is one of those times you have to trust someone with their word, so I can understand that you won't accept this piece.
I find this statement worded rather oddly. I didn't really assume anything in 416. But, maybe I can better answer this question as part of an answer to Vi's question:
Vi wrote:Actually, we never saw the scum Role PMs, so I don't know if there were falseclaims out there or not.
I have no idea what ClockworkRuse was trying to do though, as Cass pointed out that a name-counter-claim would be highly unlikely.
The point being that I'm really not seeing this.
Lets see if I can better explain with an example... we're playing a generic theme game (I don't want to use this one, so lets say its meerkat manor mafia). All the town roles are meerkats, and there is an sk-predator role. Suppose Early in the game, a townie is forced to claim. He claims townie, and gives a flavor name. sk-predator starts asking, "Hey, uh, are you sure there is no other flavor?"
There are 2 reasons why I can see a player asking for more flavor:
1) player asking for more flavor is town, and wants to compare the flavor in the claiming player's PM to the flavor in his own PM, so as to verify that yeah, this player is probably telling the truth, scum wouldn't have been able to come up with the town flavor without knowing a town PM
-or-
2) player asking for more flavor is scum, and wants to know what flavor is in a townie role PM, so later in the game when he has to fabricate a fake claim, he can include townie flavor to make his claim more believable.
Let me also point out the differences between Meerkat manor mafia, and this game, so my argument isn't strawmanned by "BSG wasn't asking for all flavor, just a role name..."
In meerkat manor mafia, there were 12 meerkat names the mod provided, and all names were used. 8 (or 9, can't remember) were the actual town role names. the other 3 or 4 were included in the scum role PMs, so the scum had safe fake names to use if they had to fake claim. What they didn't have was fake town flavor - only their own scum flavor.
Now snap back over to this game. We know, or at least don't have any reason to assume that scum have safe fake names included in their role PM. So, BSG asks for a flavor name. Why? Same two options as before...
1) BSG wants to compare the flavor name in freeko's and Vi's claim to her own flavor name to see if freeko and Vi's claim is believable (I'm not saying BSG has the same flavor name, I'm saying that she's comparing more the flavor, than the name itself. Does Merchant make sense as a town role, taking into consideration whatever her town role name is?)
-or-
2) BSG is scum, say, a wolf. (Not saying I have any reason to believe all scum are wolves, but then again, I have no reason to believe they aren't). Later in the game, BSG might have to fake claim something to save herself. Without knowing anything about any of the town roles, how would she have any idea of a flavor name to use for her role? Thats why specifically asking for a flavor name is kinda scummy. For a while, scum could only assume sheep were town roles (due to the N0 flavor kill, and Occam mentioned something about sheep on cliffs). Thats why everyone should be suspicious of Korts claiming sheep, regardless of whether or not raider can confirm there are sheep in the game. Now scum also know there are non-sheep town roles, since freeko and Vi are merchant/companion. In other words, before freeko and Vi's flavor names were revealed, scum had no reason to believe there were any town flavor names other than sheep. Now, they have more flexibility in fake claiming later knowing they can come up with something other than sheep.
Now consider BSG's quote above. She flat out denies that she was asking due to option 1. So, its either option 2, or some other role specific option that I can't possibly know since I don't know BSGs role. She asks us to just trust her, knowing full well that in mafia, asking for blind trust is usually reason enough to not give any trust... So, without asking BSG to fully explain herself through a role claim (which I'm not doing, btw), I am considering her asking for a flavor name scummy do to option 2 above. I voted before to get more of a reaction out of BSG. Since discussion on the topic is basically finished until BSG has to claim (and I'm not ready for that), I'm not voting BSG now because I'm not ready to commit to lynching anyone yet.
BSG wrote:Why I asked for a flavor name:
BSG wrote:I asked, because the claim has changed a lot. First they were masons, then when Vi comes in, it changed to neighbours. Nothing much, as this could be an honest mistake. But then I thought back of MM's role which was cleric. According to the mod, this meant that he was a doc. My role has also a completely different name than usual. This is most likely the case with everybody.
What I do find odd is that one of them claimed merchant, while the other claimed merchant companion, so I'm not sold yet on either claim.
Interesting... If you thought everyone had a non-traditional name, then what made you think that mason/neighbor was anything more than they're description of their role, since the flavor name wouldn't tell what the role can actually do. I guess maybe if you were checking to see if their role HAD a flavor name, or if it just said neighbor or mason, that would fit into option 1) above for why you were asking for a flavor name. I agree that if every town role had a non traditional name, and Vi and freeko's role PMs simply said mason or neighbor, that would be suspicious and possibly point towards the claim being faked.
BSG wrote:Uhm... freeko? You were fishing for my role, I was fishing for your flavor name. Two completely different things. In my opinion, what you did is much worse. As I've seen that you want to hear Korts' full claim (What's your reason for that anyway?) I'm really happy with my vote.
I agree that freeko is acting very scummy. Since the masons are unconfirmed, theres no reason to believe that freeko can't be scum. I agree with Juls that ever since Vi replaced in, freeko has been acting like he thinks he's bullet proof. Part of me wants to hold a gun.. er.. a pike rather up to his head right now to see if his confidence holds (that was artistic liscense for me saying I'm considering voting him for his scummy role fishing he's been doing, and his overconfidence he's been displaying since Big Brother Vi (or sister... god, I feel so stupid but i don't think I've ever known which.. do you have a preference as to which pronoun gender we call you by Vi? I'm assuming sister would be the appropriate one since you said 80lbs is almost all of your weight... unless you're a really skinny 12yo boy
) came in and backed him up. However, we've already got all we can get out of pressuring freeko by votes, so I would only vote him now if I was intending to lynch him.
BSG wrote:Don't like the votes from Rhinox and freeko against Korts.
Rhinox as he had only good things to say about Korts until Vi pointed something out, which made him suddenly obvscum.
Freeko's reason is just to see if Korts is teeling the truth about the watching, while there's also a different way to check this.
I want everyone to think very carefully and ask themselves this question: Did my vote on Korts really appear to be made with the intention of lynching korts? Vi, look at my votes in mafia 87, raider, you have that newbie game that just finished to look at, juls, do you still have the link to that game we were both in that you replaced out of? Everyone else, I've already linked Meerkat manor mafia. You guys can pretty much look at every vote I've ever made... When I'm ready to lynch someone, I make my intentions known.
'course, that just means the utility of me throwing my vote around like I've been doing up til now has just been shattered, so don't expect me to be doing as much of that for the rest of the game.
Also, I don't necessarily think I've had only good things to say about korts... I just like his playstyle for catching scum. Even if korts is scum, I think the way he's playing will help me recognize other scum.
BSG wrote:Will look at the battle between Vi and Rhinox tomorrow. I don't like quote wars...
I wouldn't consider what Vi and I are doing as quote wars... I would say it seems more like a pissing contest to me
Seems Vi agrees:
Vi wrote:3) More pointless ad hominem and taunting with Rhinox (with the occasional on-topic point) will come later.
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Raider wrote:Not sure how I can enlighten you anymore then I already have. There is
another
sheep role. I am 100% positive on that. Korts claimed sheep with no counterclaim so I have no reason to not believe his claim. I also think the sheep role is town and thought that as of the start of day 2.
Very interesting comment here... Raider, feel like commenting on your use of the word 'another' here?
Juls wrote:I am glad I could humor you. :p My point is that I felt relatively confident that PK was scum. You have said a few things that are still inconsistent but truckloads better than what PK was giving us, thus the confusion. Plus, you have thrown out somethings that I had missed/not thought about (e.g. Korts sheep slip comment). All valid points, I am just now confused as to what I should weight more heavily...PK or you.
At this point, I'm pretty confident in forgetting PK ever existed. He really didn't do much but claim for freeko, then vanish. Its possible it means something that PK didn't elaborate more on his claim when asked, but assuming the masons are not confirmed, then basically it was stupid for him to even come out and say freeko was town. Thus, any analysis of his play/comments can be explained away due to "PK was an idiot" The only thing that makes me wonder is that scum mason-pk would know freeko is town, where town mason-pk would not. The only reason pk would call freeko town, then, is if pk was scum. But wait... "PK was an idiot..." now the observation is unreliable for use as any sort of basis for a lynch...
While I'm thinking about it... @Vi: someone used that "scum are mostly likely to be the 3rd (or 4th) vote on wagons" BS tell in one of my previous games... It was used to get a townie mislynched. I went back through my completed games (well, the ones that were completed at the time) and found that scum were the 3rd or 4th vote on only 2 of every wagon (not just the ones that led to lynch) in my completed games. In post game discussion, players insisted that it was a valid tell, but based on my own experiences and games, I have nothing to suggest that lynching someone because they were the 3rd vote on (almost) every wagon in the game increases the chances of lynching scum. I still have to take a closer look at your other reasons for voting juls, but I sure hope there are better reasons than just this one.
Juls wrote:@everyone: It occurs to me that we could all be just talking circles around each other and that the scum have abandoned the game. It's possible but not likely. I think its reasonable to think that 1 or 2 of the people who aren't currently active could be scum. Recall that Occam just "disappeared", it didn't say he was killed. It is possible that there was no nightkill sent in at all. And I do realize there are some other scenarios that would cause this to occur too but I am going to withhold my vote until we get at least 2 replacements who are participating. I don't want to be going down a wrong path just because we are the only people talking.
I don't think now is the time to consider policy lynching inactives, unless we have reason to believe that every active player is town. Considering we've already mislynched once, and if Occam is dead, then a mislynch today could basically put us in LyLo tomorrow.
Juls wrote:Congratulations! Don't name your first born Rhinox! (my first born is named after another character name I used before...Juliet will be my second child's name if we have a girl)
Hmm... Rhinox... what a pretty name...
hehe
Regarding all the non-game discussion we seem to be having: I actually kind of like it, so long as its not distracting us from the business part of the game. It makes the game seem to have another dimension to it, as I feel like I "know" a little bit who i'm playing with. I just hope it doesn't cause any hurt feelings if things get heated later on. I don't want anything to get personal, so to speak.
Vi wrote:I'm counting my replacement in here on YOUR tab, btw.
As you should. However, you should also know I would replace into any of your games without even having to think about it.
Vi wrote:Oh, stop.
Why the congratulation, though?
Not so much congrats... I just meant that irregardless of anyones role, you're doing a very good job arguing in this game (unlike in mafia 87 where I said I thought you were scum due to meta and you kinda just folded...)
Vi wrote:Actually, we never saw the scum Role PMs, so I don't know if there were falseclaims out there or not.
In meerkat manor mafia, after the rules, the mod posted the 12 meerkat names, and said the ones that weren't used for actual town roles were included in the scum PM's as safe claims. I thought that was very clear, and never really understood everyone's confusion about it, nor the potential for name counter claims. Anyways, I've already covered the rest above...
Vi wrote:The absolutely hideous reason for voting freeko, and associated lining up of lynches. The cryptic responses to questioning about the Lunar_Tick wagon. The shoving of words into BSG's mouth regarding the claim request. The being scum.
Ok... lets go through these one by one:
The absolutely hideous reason for voting freeko:
I've already explained my reasoning. Silly me, I thought the countless times freeko said that PK could confirm him, I thought that was because it was actually in freeko's role pm (i.e. I thought freeko's role pm said something like, "you don't know your partner's allignment, but he knows yours"). Thats why I kept asking PK to elaborate more on his role and whether or not it actually said they were confirmed masons (I might as well have been talking to my dog... would have gotten more of a response). After you replaced in, you said you couldn't confirm freeko. I thought that was solid evidence that freeko was lying about his role, in order to seem to be confirmed town. Turns out it was a big misunderstanding. I guess it just proves the point that we should be suspicious of players claiming to be townie over and over again... constantly repeating something doesn't make it true, but it can make the mind think it is.
and associated lining up of lynches:
The only lining up of lynches was because I thought if freeko wasn't lying about his role (and it really did say that pk did know his allignment), then you would have been lying about saying you couldn't confirm freeko. In that situation, if freeko was town, you had to be scum. When i realized that freeko never said the pk could confirm him part was actually part of his role PM, then obviously there was no more lining up of lynches.
The cryptic responses to questioning about the Lunar_Tick wagon
Didn't I already answer for this, or did you not read that part. LT's wagon was a utility wagon. Pretty obviously, it was. My crypic responses were meant to buy some time to get LT to respond the the wagon that grew. If I had answered straightforwardly, it would have been "LT was my random vote, and I'm only keeping my vote here to pressure LT and try to catch scum jumping on the wagon, or ignoring it". Obviously, that would have not only eliminated the utility of my vote, but also blown an opportunity to try to catch scum by letting everyone know what I was looking for... Are you saying you've never voted for/wagoned someone with an intention to get reactions from other players, without intending to lynch the person being wagoned?
The shoving of words into BSG's mouth regarding the claim request
I've already answered for this, and believe I at some questions for you in return. If not, I'll re-ask them now. Take this post into consideration:
Rhinox wrote:I wasn't trying to push an explanation on her, I said why I thought flavor fishing was scummy, and the unfortunate part was that I gave her an out and gave her the answer for why a townie would flavor fish. First I should have asked her why she wanted to know the flavor, waited for her answer, and then explained why I felt flavor fishing was scummy. All I can see is that it was a mistake for me to make while scumhunting, as it pretty much makes any discussion about why BSG was flavor fishing worthless now, but I don't see how it makes me scummy...
... and answer these questions for me:
1) How was I putting words into BSG's mouth?
2) What words was I putting into BSG's mouth?
3) What is scummy about it?
Also, explain in what context was a backpedaling. Yes, I voted korts, then backed away. Explain to me the context of whats so scummy about that.
The being scum.
D'oh! You got me here...
Vi wrote:Question @Rhinox, Juls, and raider: Who's suspicious - other than me or freeko?
You're quite paranoid if you think I'm only suspicious of you and freeko. I've clearly expressed suspicions of BSG and Raider in the thread. Korts and Juls I'm still reading, but I wouldn't say I'm not suspicious of them. Then there are the inactives, but I've already given my feelings on them.
Vi wrote:I'm going to be honest - maybe it's because I don't have anything to lose but this dancing-around-what-our-roles-are bit is getting old. I'm not asking for a massclaim, but seriously, I'm getting sick of the vague attacks and defenses based on private information.
This sounds an awful lot like asking for a mass claim, while saying you're not asking for a mass claim. You figure you claimed, so everyone else might as well?
raider wrote:Rhinox has said some things that has made me wonder if he is just trying to get anyone lynched. TBH I really wish we had those replacements in. They hold alot of information that could really push the game in the right direction.
What have I said?
Also, what makes you think the replacements have roles that could give us any information we don't already have?
I think this is all... Let me know if I left anything important out
smiley)
