Mini 735 - Bad Times In Kuribonia- Game over!

[MonkeyMan576]

Why was it the best indicator?
I don't understand the need for speed?
I was fully prepared to vote for him as a suspicious person, but not to lynch yet, he was a crap player and i wanted to see him start using logic. When he cop claimed as far as i was concerned it was 50:50, and it was our duty as town to ensure that we got a full argument from him, and why waste day one by quicklynching, we could look for alternative targets?

Im sorry Monkeyman, but you and Ting gave the town 10 hours to object to a lynch against Reecer before you hammered. One other town member (TOVARISH) objected (apart from me and Ting who UNVOTED) and no one else even had time to comment. for me 6 of those hours were between 12 midnight and 6 am. I dont think a timeframe like that is indicative of someone who wants to avaoid a quick lynch

I agree there's nothing to be gained by a quick lynch. Might as well look for more scum.

Unvote
Vote: Prof. Guppy

Were you afraid more time and more targets would result more people thinking against a quicklynch? Maybe discovering your mafia?

Also after your hammer you said

Unvote:
Vote: Reecer

I'll explain tomorrow. If I'm alive.

but today you provide this explanation:

Looks like we have a pro-town killer, at least.

Anyways, the reason I hammered was I knew if we kept Reecer around as a cop, we pretty much couldn't trust anything he said, the fact that Reecer refused to say who he thought was guilty, and that coupled with the fact that Ting said he was "pretty sure" that reecer was scum, and then said he was ready to believe he was town the next page, gave me reason to believe that we'd be better off figuring out info from night action results than carry on the current course of discussion.

That being said, I am willing to take full responsibility for the lynch, and regret that we lost a cop, but still feel we're probably better off, given reecer's unreliable nature, provided we get some decent night action results.

For me this is totaly unsatisfactory. Why do you decide we cannot trust his cop suspicions. In retrospect his going with the flow was to avoid undue attention from the mafia (something i completely disbelieved and missed unfortunetly) . I do not think we are 'Better off' with him. He was erratic yes, but the chance of cop claim might have believed had the logic returned to his game.

So for me it absolutely has to be

VOTE: MONKEYMAN

will be rereading the game for more tells, and defense.

@TING

I find a case against you also.

Unvote.

We're in page 5. I don't think I'm comfortable with anyone being at L-1 so soon.

Then why, when finaly REECER becomes more forthcoming and role reveals a possible (and ultimetly truethful claim) do you then have no problem in a quicklynch?

I need to reread your game before any further questions however...

FOS:TING

On day one you defended yourself by saying you were one of reecer's greatest attackers, and now you are defending him, knowing he was town. Convenient, no?

[Kieraen]

Thats rubbish. I did say that I attacked him, however I withdrew my vote, I constantly asked him for confirmation of his posts, their meaning, his logic, explained to him why cop claiming was insificient etc

In short I investigsated his actions

I didn't just quicklynch him. In fact whilst attacking him (with my previous argument of causing pressure) I withdrew my vote not wanting a lynch yet.

When he claimed and started to chat more, I felt we were starting to see a bit more. In trueth I still had him down as number one suspect, but myself as well as TOVARISH asked for no quick lynch!

[MonkeyMan576]

Thats rubbish. I did say that I attacked him, however I withdrew my vote, I constantly asked him for confirmation of his posts, their meaning, his logic, explained to him why cop claiming was insificient etc

In short I investigsated his actions

I didn't just quicklynch him. In fact whilst attacking him (with my previous argument of causing pressure) I withdrew my vote not wanting a lynch yet.

When he claimed and started to chat more, I felt we were starting to see a bit more. In trueth I still had him down as number one suspect, but myself as well as TOVARISH asked for no quick lynch!

So you admit that he was your number one suspect, yet you vote for me for voting based on my convictions? If I had not voted for him, and he had ended up being scum, then I would have been attacked for withholding my vote, while stile having him as my top suspect. I am comfortable with my vote, and suspicious of you attacking me for voting with my convictions.

[Prof. Guppy]

In my first game on this site, I came under heavy suspicion and was backed into a role claim. I claimed Cop, cuz I wuz. Everyone pulled their votes off of me, except one guy, who kept saying that a cop claim shouldn't save me from the noose. This guy was lynched, and he turned up Mafia.

I have every reason to believe the same thing is happening again.

[MonkeyMan576]

In my first game on this site, I came under heavy suspicion and was backed into a role claim. I claimed Cop, cuz I wuz. Everyone pulled their votes off of me, except one guy, who kept saying that a cop claim shouldn't save me from the noose. This guy was lynched, and he turned up Mafia.

I have every reason to believe the same thing is happening again.

So you believe that claiming cop should prevent you from being voted on no matter what your behavior?

[Tovarish]

Hey everyone. I'm dead now. Bye.

[qwints]

MonkeyMan, you're continually confusing voting for with lynching. No one is saying that putting pressure on Reecer was a bad idea, but you hammered after someone specifically asked you to wait.

You seem to be saying that you didn't want the town talking itself out of a lynch. That would have been a good thing. (But only in hindsight) More importantly, we would have more information to work with.

I also don't like your evaluation of what happened overnight. I didn't and still don't see anything that would have caused a vig to go after 12.

vote: MonkeyMan

[MonkeyMan576]

MonkeyMan, you're continually confusing voting for with lynching. No one is saying that putting pressure on Reecer was a bad idea, but you hammered after someone specifically asked you to wait.

You seem to be saying that you didn't want the town talking itself out of a lynch. That would have been a good thing. (But only in hindsight) More importantly, we would have more information to work with.

I also don't like your evaluation of what happened overnight. I didn't and still don't see anything that would have caused a vig to go after 12.

vote: MonkeyMan

It could have been a sk, I was just thinking since scum was killed maybe he was a vig.

I don't think reecer would have been any help to us, because if he was town we wouldn't have trusted him, and if he was scum, well, he was scum. I think it's better to get rid of a possible scum/possible untrustworthy townie than to lynch someone that's reasonable. I think we can have a far more reasonable discourse without Reecer in the mix, than with him, and in the long run we'll be much more efficient this way in finding and lynching scum. Reecer was only setting us back. I regret the cop being lynched, but I don't regret Reecer being out of the game,

Could we have had more information, possibly, but more than likely it would have been more of what we already knew, and this way we have night action results to work with(if people speak up), and we don't have reecer to deal with. Like I said, I take responsibility, and if you think lynching me is the best thing, then that's the towns perrogative, but I still think I made the best move, even if going out on your own isn't always popular, especially when you lose a town cop.

[ting =)]

Then why, when finaly REECER becomes more forthcoming and role reveals a possible (and ultimetly truethful claim) do you then have no problem in a quicklynch?

1. I didn't believe his claim. I doubt the majority of us did. Would you have lynched anyone other than reecer? Do you think the majority would have changed their opinion on him and lynched someone else?
2. I don't think it's a quicklynch at all. A scan through Little Italy shows that our timing was relatively standard. Heck, there's a 29page game in day 4 already. I get annoyed when people want long days for the sake of long days. If you have enough info, then lynch.
3. I'm not monkey man, don't tie me to his hammer. I advocated receer's lynch, yes. But I wouldn't have hammered given that at least one player didn't want a lynch yet.

[Kieraen]

@TING Yes and Im slightly less suspicious of you that monkeyman. However you did agree to the lynch. One thing helps your case however; your removal of the vote against REECER on page 5. I just think that we had time for a little more argument and you lynch as REECER began being (slightly) coherent and logical.
I also disagree with your thoughts on a length of a day. A day length should be based on how many suspects you have and njot how long we played. We had one suspect, as the cases against me, prof guppy and tovaresh were weak. I felt we could have played longer, even to see if anyone defended Reecer.

@MONKEYMAN, yes but don't confuse his personality with his play. I was hoping his play would begin to make sense, Thats why I asked him (as did TOVARESH) to not claim, as at this point it wouldnt defend him (and it did not). We both asked for logical and coherent argument.

One more thing. I agree with the hypothosis óf their being a serial Killer. Can't read anything into 12's play except that someone got lucky lynching him.

[ting =)]

However you did agree to the lynch.

One thing helps your case however; your removal of the vote against REECER on page 5.

I just think that we had time for a little more argument and you lynch as REECER began being (slightly) coherent and logical.

I also disagree with your thoughts on a length of a day. A day length should be based on how many suspects you have and njot how long we played. We had one suspect, as the cases against me, prof guppy and tovaresh were weak. I felt we could have played longer, even to see if anyone defended Reecer.

We'll have to disagree on this. I think a day should end when you feel that you've gotten enough information to move on.

A lot of players had him as their top suspect. So did you. I agreed to a lynch, yes, just not the timing.

Again, I didn't lynch him. I would have supported his lynch, as did others, but I wouldn't have hammered seeing as how some people mentioned they didn't want the day to end yet. Monkey's hammer seemed as out of the blue to me as it does to you.

[Kieraen]

post 210

Monkey's hammer seemed as out of the blue to me as it does to you.

NO....sorry, but...

post 180

I think it's about time to hammer reecer?

post 181

I concur.

Vote:Reecer.

That's L-2 again, I think.

qualified with an, 'L-2... I think'.

You may be the unfortunate townie who was the only one who gave MONKEYMAN permission (whilst TOVARESH disagreed), however you must agree this does put you in a suspicious position.

also I dont think we are disagree with the length of day rule. I wouldnt want to arbitrarily drag out a day for more information that cant be had (in this we agree, end the day when there is no more information). I just disagree that this day had ended. I felt i didnt know anything about half the players here, that the town was tunnelled on REECER, and that he was beginning to talk sensibly for the first point in the game.

So what are your feelings regarding the rest of the day ones action? Who else do you suspect? Where do you go from here?
I feel I should ask you because you have already dismissed the night tells, which puts us (at least i believe you are saying), back at a Random Voting stage. If im wrong please correct me or show me the way to finding scum.

post 197

kier wrote:
"However first question. Why TOVERISH? He was a loud player so there should be loads of reads and tells. I am aware that due to an early argument with him, I could be in the frame, but what others?"

I don't support nk speculation. For wifom/framing reasons.

post 197 makes me suspicious. You dismiss any suspicion on the voters of Reecers lynch due to his scummy play, but surely some of them must have been bandwagoning mafia? there must be some credence to examing and suspicion? Do you maintain this view, because it would seem to me that this is a purely defensive measure from a player who basically Seconded the hammer.

I disagree. Reecer was acting scummy, I can't suspect anyone who genuinely found him suspicious. It'd be surprising if no one at all found him suspicious. I'll reread later to figure out who I think seemed like they were just hopping.

So my over all question TING is where does our evidence come from?

[ting =)]

I don't support nk speculation. For wifom/framing reasons.

post 197 makes me suspicious.

You dismiss any suspicion on the voters of Reecers lynch due to his scummy play, but surely some of them must have been bandwagoning mafia? there must be some credence to examing and suspicion? Do you maintain this view, because it would seem to me that this is a purely defensive measure from a player who basically Seconded the hammer.

I don't support nk speculation in any game. Nk speculation is essentially built on pretenses.

No, I never said to dismiss suspicion on Reecer voters - what I said was that being Reecer voters did not make them inherently scummy. Let's assume you're in a park bench with someone, and you see what looks like a duck crossing the street. He says, 'hey, a duck is crossing the street.' It gets hit by a car and turns out to just be a toy. Do you call him a liar for not knowing it was a toy? No, it looked like a duck, so he called it a duck.

Likewise, Reecer painted himself scum. All the voters on him said, 'hey, he looks like scum.' They had no way of knowing he'd be a cop since he looked like scum, so they called him scum. You're more than welcome to look at them, but I don't think the mere fact that they voted Reecer makes them suspicious. If you think one of the voters were bandwagony, or didn't really have valid reasons for voting reecer though, then that's different.

I concur. Vote:Reecer.

You may be the unfortunate townie who was the only one who gave MONKEYMAN permission (whilst TOVARESH disagreed), however you must agree this does put you in a suspicious position.

Context. Look at the timing. I concured before tovarish mentioned he was against ending the day yet. After he did, I was still questioning Reecer and waiting for answers, not calling for someone to hammer. I'm more than willing to quote if you want.

I feel I should ask you because you have already dismissed the night tells, which puts us (at least i believe you are saying), back at a Random Voting stage. If im wrong please correct me or show me the way to finding scum.

NO. We have absolutely no information at random voting stage. At the moment, we have 9 page worth of info.

So what are your feelings regarding the rest of the day ones action? Who else do you suspect? Where do you go from here? [snip] So my over all question TING is where does our evidence come from?

Reread. I haven't had time to do it yet, but it's what I intend to do. I'll get back to you on this when I wake up.

[MonkeyMan576]

People have a lot of opinions on what happened. This is good. We learn a lot more having this discussion than discussing Reecer.

[Prof. Guppy]

In my first game on this site, I came under heavy suspicion and was backed into a role claim. I claimed Cop, cuz I wuz. Everyone pulled their votes off of me, except one guy, who kept saying that a cop claim shouldn't save me from the noose. This guy was lynched, and he turned up Mafia.

I have every reason to believe the same thing is happening again.

So you believe that claiming cop should prevent you from being voted on no matter what your behavior?

That's not what I'm saying at all. I'm just saying, the mafia saw reecer's scummy behavior, they knew his cop claim was probably legit, they knew they could get him lynched and pass it off as a pro-town thing, and they probably couldn't resist.

[MonkeyMan576]

In my first game on this site, I came under heavy suspicion and was backed into a role claim. I claimed Cop, cuz I wuz. Everyone pulled their votes off of me, except one guy, who kept saying that a cop claim shouldn't save me from the noose. This guy was lynched, and he turned up Mafia.

I have every reason to believe the same thing is happening again.

So you believe that claiming cop should prevent you from being voted on no matter what your behavior?

That's not what I'm saying at all. I'm just saying, the mafia saw reecer's scummy behavior, they knew his cop claim was probably legit, they knew they could get him lynched and pass it off as a pro-town thing, and they probably couldn't resist.

The implied part of your statement that you're not saying, is that there are probably only 3 mafia, and it would have taken 4 townies at least to get enough for the lynch. That means that a majority of the votes on Reecer were pro-town. Why? Because he was acting scummy.

I'm not saying hammering a townie isn't naturally suspicious. I'm saying trying to cast excess suspicion on an easy tartget doesn't make you more pro-town. You should at least admit that reecer was highly suspicious, and that hammering someone that's acting that anti-town is hardly the most suspicious thing in the world.

[qwints]

No, but hammering a claimed cop after someone specifically asks you not to is very suspicious.

[qwints]

Mod, could you prod houseofcards?

I just saw that he's being replaced in another game while browsing the replacement thread.

[kuribo]

Done, houseofcards has been prodded.

[MonkeyMan576]

No, but hammering a claimed cop after someone specifically asks you not to is very suspicious.

You obviously didn't read my sentence.

[Kieraen]

Yes but the likelyhood is that the mafia are contained in the group voting for REECER. and MONKEYMAN and TING are my top suspects.

[MonkeyMan576]

Yes but the likelyhood is that the mafia are contained in the group voting for REECER. and MONKEYMAN and TING are my top suspects.

Well, for what it's worth, I targeted ting with my night action, which I'd rather not reveal at this point.

[houseofcards]

srry ive no been posting, ive been really sick the past week couldnt even stand up, and that lynch was way too quick, as kierean said noy many people had time to object to such a quick lynch, and where is Queenofhearts?

[houseofcards]

noy=not srry

[Kieraen]

And Monkeyman? as vague as you can be (as it is your night action) but was the action/result positive or negative?