Mini 727 - Mafia in Standardville - Game Over

[LlamaFluff]

Vote Count

Lynx the Antithesis (4) - Darox, Panzerjager, Tubby216, Charter
Lowell (1) - Artem

Not Voting (5) - Master Ruck, Danchaofan, Lowell, Artifex, Lynx the Antithesis

[Lynx The Antithesis]

I think that there's a very good chance that at least one of our scum is riding my wagon at the moment. Each person that's jumped on has simply agreed with the person before them when they hopped on.

I think Darox should be looked into. He's come every couple of pages or so and just repeated his suspicions on me. He hasn't really expressed opinions or thoughts on any other players besides me. Tunneling like this isn't helpful to the town. He hasn't even really pushed for my lynch hard. He's only really just layed his vote on me and then just gone quiet. The only time he's really looked at somebody else was Panzer and that was simply for the deadline.

Everyone's just given him a free pass with his claim. It's basically granted him amnesty until end game. Artem brings up a valid point about these investigation-immune claims .

Vote:Darox

I don't think Lowell's scum. Just a lurker really.

[charter]

Lynx, basically every reason you gave is not really true. He's given suspicions and opinions on others. He made a case against you yesterday.

I'm actually inclined to believe he's a PGO. I'm a Hider which is a very uncommon role and PGO is a fairly uncommon role. I wouldn't be suprised to see others.

[Lynx The Antithesis]

Lynx, basically every reason you gave is not really true. He's given suspicions and opinions on others. He made a case against you yesterday.

I'm actually inclined to believe he's a PGO. I'm a Hider which is a very uncommon role and PGO is a fairly uncommon role. I wouldn't be suprised to see others.

I figured you'd be the first to speak out in his defense. The only reason you'd be more inclined to believe him is if your claim is really true. His vote has been on me for the entire game basically. He has pointed out things about others, but I feel like he's kept his suspicios very narrow. I know he made a case against me yesterday considering that all of you on my wagon have jumped on based on it. He doesn't seem like an active townie to me. When you just answer your prod to just say you have nothing new to say is scummy to me. It just looks to me that he's lurking.

[PJ.]

That makes him singleminded but not wrong. He's not singleling you out, for he had a vote on me late Day 1. Darox is a bit lurkerish but he has posted more content then 2-3 people in this thread, including you I believe.

[Darox]

And the hider ability is pretty dangerous because if you hide behind either scum or a targeted individual you die. So that means there's around a thirty percent chance you will die tonight(pending around two scum and one target) So depending on your claim being true, if you die we'd be dealt a serious blow tonight. Say we mislynched and you were caught by scum, We'd lose three townies. Are you required to use your night action?

Why are you suggesting that the hider should not try to clear townies?
Why are you suggesting the hider should not try to avoid the night kill?
What makes you think there are two scum?

If I wasn't voting you already this would be enough for me to vote you now.

I think Darox should be looked into. He's come every couple of pages or so and just repeated his suspicions on me. He hasn't really expressed opinions or thoughts on any other players besides me. Tunneling like this isn't helpful to the town. He hasn't even really pushed for my lynch hard. He's only really just layed his vote on me and then just gone quiet. The only time he's really looked at somebody else was Panzer and that was simply for the deadline.

I'm sorry to inform you that saying "He hasn't expressed as many suspicions about other people" doesn't invalidate the suspicions levelled at you. And using buzzwords doesn't give you a get out of jail free card.

As for 'hasn't even really pushed hard', do you want me to go and quote the walls of texts? I'll even make them extra bold font so you can't miss them.

And of course, you're alternating between "He's tunnelling and only pushing me hard, ignoring everyone else" and "He's not really pushing anyone hard, he's just laying low"

Everyone's just given him a free pass with his claim. It's basically granted him amnesty until end game. Artem brings up a valid point about these investigation-immune claims .

Vote:Darox

Speaking of these investigation immune claims Artem is talking about. It doesn't make much sense for charter. His ability clears townies. He's actively hurting the scum team every time he successfully hides behind a new person and confirms their innocence.
It's confusing, because Artem as town should know that charter as scum would be hurting his team by confirming Artem.

I don't think Lowell's scum. Just a lurker really.

Really? That's interesting, because a little further on...

[Darox] doesn't seem like an active townie to me. When you just answer your prod to just say you have nothing new to say is scummy to me. It just looks to me that he's lurking.

What is the difference you perceive between me and Lowell that has caused such a drastic split in opinion?

Lynx, basically every reason you gave is not really true. He's given suspicions and opinions on others. He made a case against you yesterday.

I'm actually inclined to believe he's a PGO. I'm a Hider which is a very uncommon role and PGO is a fairly uncommon role. I wouldn't be suprised to see others.

I figured you'd be the first to speak out in his defense. The only reason you'd be more inclined to believe him is if your claim is really true. His vote has been on me for the entire game basically. He has pointed out things about others, but I feel like he's kept his suspicios very narrow. I know he made a case against me yesterday considering that all of you on my wagon have jumped on based on it.

Again, focusing on you doesn't discount what I've said. There is no minimum requirement saying that I must post suspicions of X number of people before any of my points become valid.

[Lynx The Antithesis]

And the hider ability is pretty dangerous because if you hide behind either scum or a targeted individual you die. So that means there's around a thirty percent chance you will die tonight(pending around two scum and one target) So depending on your claim being true, if you die we'd be dealt a serious blow tonight. Say we mislynched and you were caught by scum, We'd lose three townies. Are you required to use your night action?

Why are you suggesting that the hider should not try to clear townies?
Why are you suggesting the hider should not try to avoid the night kill?
What makes you think there are two scum?


If I wasn't voting you already this would be enough for me to vote you now.

I suggested he does not use his night action because if his claim really is true, then we could be dealt a huge blow if he gets caught by the scum. We'd be down two more townies the next day. I don't even understand the wording of your second question. The two scum thing was simply speculation.

I think Darox should be looked into. He's come every couple of pages or so and just repeated his suspicions on me. He hasn't really expressed opinions or thoughts on any other players besides me. Tunneling like this isn't helpful to the town. He hasn't even really pushed for my lynch hard. He's only really just layed his vote on me and then just gone quiet. The only time he's really looked at somebody else was Panzer and that was simply for the deadline.

I'm sorry to inform you that saying "He hasn't expressed as many suspicions about other people" doesn't invalidate the suspicions levelled at you. And using buzzwords doesn't give you a get out of jail free card.

As for 'hasn't even really pushed hard', do you want me to go and quote the walls of texts? I'll even make them extra bold font so you can't miss them.

And of course, you're alternating between "He's tunnelling and only pushing me hard, ignoring everyone else" and "He's not really pushing anyone hard, he's just laying low"

I don't care about the suspicions aimed at me. The fact that you've been looking at me largely the entire game either makes you a narrow-minded townie or a scum really driven to lynch me. A real townie would looks at all of the other players because they can't trust anyone instead of soley focusing on one lead.

I do feel like you're laying low. Especially after your claim. I think you feel like you're untouchable because your claim prevents from any sort of harm from night action. So as long as you avoid being lynched you'd be cleared until end game. Precisiely why you come in every couple of pages with the same case, but not leading it so as to draw too much attention.

Everyone's just given him a free pass with his claim. It's basically granted him amnesty until end game. Artem brings up a valid point about these investigation-immune claims .

Vote:Darox

Speaking of these investigation immune claims Artem is talking about. It doesn't make much sense for charter. His ability clears townies. He's actively hurting the scum team every time he successfully hides behind a new person and confirms their innocence.
It's confusing, because Artem as town should know that charter as scum would be hurting his team by confirming Artem.

Why would you say that Charter is hurting his team as scum. By confirming Artem as townie he's trying to gain the trust of Artem and probably the rest of the town. If he was scum he'd know who was townie or not so he could easily pick anyone to say he hid behind. Considering that he's immune from night action as well no one can test him either. Another reason why it's an easy scum claim. Confirming Artem as town didn't hurt him either because Artem was already obv town at this point I believe.

I don't think Lowell's scum. Just a lurker really.

Really? That's interesting, because a little further on...

[Darox] doesn't seem like an active townie to me. When you just answer your prod to just say you have nothing new to say is scummy to me. It just looks to me that he's lurking.

What is the difference you perceive between me and Lowell that has caused such a drastic split in opinion?

Lynx, basically every reason you gave is not really true. He's given suspicions and opinions on others. He made a case against you yesterday.

I'm actually inclined to believe he's a PGO. I'm a Hider which is a very uncommon role and PGO is a fairly uncommon role. I wouldn't be suprised to see others.

I figured you'd be the first to speak out in his defense. The only reason you'd be more inclined to believe him is if your claim is really true. His vote has been on me for the entire game basically. He has pointed out things about others, but I feel like he's kept his suspicios very narrow. I know he made a case against me yesterday considering that all of you on my wagon have jumped on based on it.

Again, focusing on you doesn't discount what I've said. There is no minimum requirement saying that I must post suspicions of X number of people before any of my points become valid.

I never said it discounts what you say or makes any of your points less valid. But I don't think it's townie play to tunnel and not look over everybody. This wasn't a defense against your points against me. I already defended myself against those. This was why I think you're scummy.

My respones are in bold

[Lynx The Antithesis]

That makes him singleminded but not wrong. He's not singleling you out, for he had a vote on me late Day 1. Darox is a bit lurkerish but he has posted more content then 2-3 people in this thread, including you I believe.

I wouldn't bring up content when all your posts are basically two sentences. I mean your reasons for your vote on Charter was that he was a "Scummy McScumFace".

Oh and I forgot to say in my response to Darox. The difference between you and Lowell is that Lowell is basically non-existant. He hasn't really been playing the game at all. On the otherhand, you have been here and playing. You're actively lurking while Lowell is just really inactive.

[Artifex]

Okay, re-read the whole friggin game. Hope I don't have to do that again for a while.

@ Artem- you asked me at the beginning of this day if I still felt the same about Darox, ie voting for him. I do still feel the same- that Darox is hiding a separate win condition from us. I'm thinking that it was a bad idea to try to get him lynched for it in Day 1, though, and I have my doubts that it's the smart thing to do for Day 2. Here's my reasoning:

My opinion of the timing of Darox's claim, as laid out way back in 281, remains unchanged. Darox took the one valuable thing his role had out of the running almost instantly, and his reasoning that it would be too dangerous if a cop or doctor targeted him seemed off to me. We had just started the game. Darox had just replaced in. It seemed premature to view this as a danger. It's a great move, though, if all you have to do is survive to the end of the game to win. Since then, Darox has had it made, just as Lynx pointed out- he's basically untouchable. I feel like he's directing action from a big lawnchair and a drink with an umbrella on the sidelines of the field. It makes me nervous.

But I don't think he's mafia- and as I think it's to his benefit to do so genuine scumhunting, I'm giving his Lynx argument some real thought. I don't agree with everything that's been said. The whole 'you're wording it wrong' argument, as outlined in 490, is a nulltell to me. It's obvious what Lynx meant regarding charters switch from Xdaamno, and it was a concern more than one of us pointed out pre charter's claim. That he did, indeed, word it wrong does not seem scummy to me. I'm not convinced by a couple of people on the Lynx wagon anyway, but I'll outline that later. The one real scummy thing that Lynx has done is, indeed, what Darox pointed out- suggesting that charter not use his power. At best, that's a lousy idea. This is a powerful chance town's been handed- as I read it, it's basically an investigation and a protect (well, for charter, but that's a good thing) all wrapped into one. We need every single successful use of this we can get. There's just no benefit to town with your plan, none at all. At worst, it's scummy.

@MR- don't direct the doc! If we followed your suggestions, we'd have made it nice and easy for the scum to pick the one of us off, knowing exactly where protection was gonna be.

[Artifex]

@ Artem- back in 497, you said you thought charter was likely town. Has your opinion of that changed any? Because I'm reading doubt in several of your posts later:

The problem is that you're effectively telling scum who they should kill next by naming a confirmed townie each day. That also means that I am not likely to see Day 3.

Another strange thing is that Lowell says charter is town in 77 and charter is reluctant to go after Lowell. While I believe charter's claim, these two facts make me wary.

Also, what do you think are the chances of scum having some talking on Night 0 and deciding to claim obscure (yet, investigation-immunity guaranteeing) roles throughout the game?...I admit, it's some wild speculation, but I have to throw it out on the table, since I am not likely to see the next day.

The conspiracy theorist in me is starting to panic a little that a bunch of us have decided to accept charter's claim, without question.

[Master Ruck]

@MR- don't direct the doc! If we followed your suggestions, we'd have made it nice and easy for the scum to pick the one of us off, knowing exactly where protection was gonna be.

Still, if the doc protection isn't directed, then we pretty much rely on luck or a damn good doc to guess who is likely to be targetted. Not that it matters, as your point is valid and refutes mine, I just wanted to say this. I'm kinda realising I'm not the best townie to confirm anyhow. My posts are uncommon, useful content more-so and even then it never led to much. Though...

Why are you suggesting that the hider should not try to clear townies?

I suggested he does not use his night action because if his claim really is true, then we could be dealt a huge blow if he gets caught by the scum. We'd be down two more townies the next day.

This stood out to me as a really weak argument. Let's assume Charter's claim is true as Lynx does. He hides behind a person, there is that chance the shield is killed and charter along with it. Near end game, this is something to seriously consider as it could end the game like that with 2 townie deaths. However, this is not end game, and if he hides behind a person and survives, then that person is town through and through making one less person to waste time looking at for scum tells. Counting in all the pros, cons, and the luck factor of charter's hiding place being guessed by the scum where there's about 8 townies to choose from, I see no reason at all why Charter should not use his skill for now.

The only ones who would want him to stop are scum who are afraid of more confirmed townies narrowing down the scum choice to them...unless Lynx can come up with some other reason to say Charter shouldn't hide other than "It's too risky". In this case, high risk=high reward so that won't fly anymore.

[Lynx The Antithesis]

Ok perhaps it was a little early to consider if Charter should not use his night action. However, I do agree with Artem that clearing towines basically hands them their death sentence. Usually a cop doesn't claim as to avoid a certain death by night kill. It simply narrows down his suspects of who to pursue the next day.I think Charter's claim was premature because if he hadn't claimed he could still clear townies and perhaps wasted a scum night kill while he was at it. If he didn't claim, the scum may have targeted him. But considering if his claim's true and he is hider, then the scum's kill would have been nullified because ALL night action fails against him.

Maybe it's my "fence sitting" nature and cautiousness that you've classified me as, but I just felt it a huge risk to the town to lose two townies through simple chance. But now we know towards end game if Charter's still alive he has to use his night action. Which means he will doom the town's chances as we proceed further along. His chance of choosing town goes down, chance of choosing scum goes up, and scum chance of picking him goes up. This is why I considered it so detrimental to the town.

[Master Ruck]

The odds of Charter hiding behind town only change depending on the roles that get lynched/NK. If we keep constantly mislynching, then yes, your last 2 lines can be considered true, but it is all circumstantial and not worth thinking too much about. What also has to be considered is that Charter has claimed and that's that. We can't erase it from our minds or from the thread now, so we simply have to work on a day-by-day basis and not bother wasting time by arguing over it for this long. Unless his claim is proved false, I personally think we should just believe it for now and not let it dominate our thoughts.

[Artem]

Speaking of these investigation immune claims Artem is talking about. It doesn't make much sense for charter. His ability clears townies. He's actively hurting the scum team every time he successfully hides behind a new person and confirms their innocence.
It's confusing, because Artem as town should know that charter as scum would be hurting his team by confirming Artem.

Unless, charter simply kills who he confirms the following night. The down side is, yes, there will be one (and exactly one if played correctly) confirmed townie each day. But look on the up side, with every confirmed townie charter-scum would be instilling even more confidence into his claim, thereby having an easy, soft ride to the end-game.

(This is all hypothetical talk, since I happen to believe his claim, at least for now.)

@ Artem- back in 497, you said you thought charter was likely town. Has your opinion of that changed any? Because I'm reading doubt in several of your posts later:

His dismissal of Lowell makes me wary. To date, three people have dismissed Lowell as a lurker but not a threat (Panzer on Day 1, charter and Lynx on Day 2). charter and Lynx had no problems using lurking a scummy point against other players, however. (charter against Panzer and Lynx against Darox)

I don't like the double standards. I also don't like that Lowell is basically given a free ride card. He lurks, provides no content, and appears disinterested in the game (could easily be a fake dis-interest). If he's scum, he's having it really well right now.

As a side note, Panzer told Lowell to "post or be lynched" in post 94, which makes it unlikely that they are scum together and actually buys Panzer some townie points.

[charter]

Artem, I said panzer lurking isn't helping him, that's not why I'm suspicious of him. I'm suspicious of him for his crackpot theories day one that don't make sense, and how he has now flipped on them completely (and how he flipped a bunch yesterday).

[Artifex]

I'd really like to hear from Lowell and what he thinks about what artem has said.

@Lynx- I actually agree with you that the claim was premature, but MR is right in that what's done is done. You and artem have raised enough concern about this current plan that I'd rather focus on what can be done to possibly prevent the idea that the scum will kill whoever charter names as town. Should charter perhaps not name who he hides behind tonight unless artem survives as well?

Still, if the doc protection isn't directed, then we pretty much rely on luck or a damn good doc to guess who is likely to be targetted.

I realize you've already conceded the point and all, but what the heck does this even mean? The town doesn't have any other means to decide this sort of thing besides luck or good guessing- they're in the same boat as the doc.

[Master Ruck]

It didn't really mean anything, I guess. My game as it stands now is still based on somewhat basic play so my thoughts and posts will sometimes reflect this with me saying simple, obvious things.

[Artem]

Artem, I said panzer lurking isn't helping him, that's not why I'm suspicious of him. I'm suspicious of him for his crackpot theories day one that don't make sense, and how he has now flipped on them completely (and how he flipped a bunch yesterday).

Sure, your current vote on him doesn't hinge on lurking, but here's you using lurking as a scummy point during Day 1:

As a side note, Panzer has been lurking lately, likely waiting for the Xd thing to blow over.

Welcome to the thing I find most suspicious about him now. Ever since his vote on Xdaamo, he's said nothing about Xdaamo. He's just sitting tight on the wagon. Now it's almost deadline and he's still lurking (though he did say he was away) but it doesn't excuse him clinging to his Artem+charter scumbuddies but voting Xdaamo terrible logic. He gets called out on it and all of a sudden just drops it.

[LlamaFluff]

Danchaofan has been prodded

[Lynx The Antithesis]

Artem the difference between Lowell and Darox to me is that I think there is a reason behind Darox's lurky play. While Lowell I think is just plain inactive(And if scum want to use this style to secure a win, then fine it's just a game, but you're not playing it for the fun value of it). Darox I think is deliberately lurking soley because he believes his claim has secured him. The only thing for him to avoid is being killed is by lynch since his alleged role prevents any night action. Therefore, all he has to do is avoid drawing to much attention and cruise right along to end game. Hence, why I belive he hasn't been actively scum hunting and pursuing all leads.

Artifex, I don't think confirming the townies is the problem. The problem was about the claim. Which you're right there is no use to discuss because what's done is done.

Master Ruck, unless my feared, dire situation happens where Charter and another townie are both taken down in one, we will not know whether his claim is true or not. I think following the belief that the claim is true and Charter is "confirmed" town is dangerous. You have to take all these claims with a slice of skepticism. Right now I definitely believe his claim over Darox's though.

[charter]

Artem, I said panzer lurking isn't helping him, that's not why I'm suspicious of him. I'm suspicious of him for his crackpot theories day one that don't make sense, and how he has now flipped on them completely (and how he flipped a bunch yesterday).

Sure, your current vote on him doesn't hinge on lurking, but here's you using lurking as a scummy point during Day 1:

As a side note, Panzer has been lurking lately, likely waiting for the Xd thing to blow over.

Welcome to the thing I find most suspicious about him now. Ever since his vote on Xdaamo, he's said nothing about Xdaamo. He's just sitting tight on the wagon. Now it's almost deadline and he's still lurking (though he did say he was away) but it doesn't excuse him clinging to his Artem+charter scumbuddies but voting Xdaamo terrible logic. He gets called out on it and all of a sudden just drops it.

...that's not what I was getting at. What I was saying was scummy was how he didn't say anything about Xdaamo after he voted him. He did the same thing with everyone else he's voted. I agreed with the "waiting for the Xd thing to blow over" not the lurking lately, which I even said in my post that Panzer said he wasn't going to be here. I don't care about the quantity of Panzer's posts, but the quality of a lot of them I find to be lacking.

As a side note, Darox is a chronic lurker.

[Master Ruck]

Master Ruck, unless my feared, dire situation happens where Charter and another townie are both taken down in one, we will not know whether his claim is true or not. I think following the belief that the claim is true and Charter is "confirmed" town is dangerous. You have to take all these claims with a slice of skepticism. Right now I definitely believe his claim over Darox's though.

Oh yeah, of course. Every claim should always be taken with a grain of salt, but not so much that we focus too much attention on it. I agree with you as well that Darox should be of even greater concern, but if we assume the basic roles of doc and cop, along with a claimed hider and maybe another role or two (though only maybe. This is a standard game so I wouldn't expect a role-heavy game) then a PGO becomes a little bit more believable. Either way, it would help if he added some more to the active scumhunt.

*Is well aware of the hypocrism*

[Darox]

Maybe it's my "fence sitting" nature and cautiousness that you've classified me as, but I just felt it a huge risk to the town to lose two townies through simple chance. But now we know towards end game if Charter's still alive he has to use his night action. Which means he will doom the town's chances as we proceed further along. His chance of choosing town goes down, chance of choosing scum goes up, and scum chance of picking him goes up. This is why I considered it so detrimental to the town.

This is nothing but scaremongering. "He might die" is the worst excuse I've heard for not using a hider ability in anything but an endgame situation.

There is no good reason why charter should not use his ability at every opportunity.

Artem the difference between Lowell and Darox to me is that I think there is a reason behind Darox's lurky play. While Lowell I think is just plain inactive(And if scum want to use this style to secure a win, then fine it's just a game, but you're not playing it for the fun value of it). Darox I think is deliberately lurking soley because he believes his claim has secured him. The only thing for him to avoid is being killed is by lynch since his alleged role prevents any night action. Therefore, all he has to do is avoid drawing to much attention and cruise right along to end game. Hence, why I belive he hasn't been actively scum hunting and pursuing all leads.

I'm not sure what you are trying to say here. You think I'm lurking and cruising through trying to go under the radar, not scum hunting and staying low?
And you continue to think this despite acknowledging my controversial claim as well as the fact I'm the primary mover behind your wagon?

Please clarify for me, because it seems like your trying to discredit me for reasons that clash with what has actually occurred.

[Lowell]

I'm not sure what artem wants me to comment on. My lurking isnt' intentional, nor is it a strategy. I don't have that much of a footing in this game.

I'll try to do a post-by-post recap from the last time I really paid close attention, sometime next week.

Offhand I'll say I don't understand the lynx case, and I find artem's suspicion me a little (a) OMGUS, and (b) convenient. If there is something to the lynx case, however, I think artem is doing a great job of derailment.

[Lynx The Antithesis]

It's not just him dying, but another townie as well. It doesn't hurt to take precaution. There is about a thirty percent chance that he will get caught. Which is a fairy big chance of death.I've already said that I said I might have said it a little early. You just keep trying to drill this same point home. Do you feel he should use it even when there's a fifty percent chance he'd die? I bet you would take such a gambit. Considering there's a chance you fake claimed on your first post of the game.

You've lurked once you felt your claim had granted you enough security to lay low, Since no one really challenged your claim other than a few FOS's and perhaps that one vote from Artifex, you knew you could play this way. It's been effective too because nobody really has gone after you in anyway.

Primary mover? Haha. Far from it. On Day 2 you layed your vote on me with my Charter vote. You were looking for any little thing to get your vote right back on me. After that you don't even come back until the prod adding completely nothing to your case(not pushing the wagon whatsoever). Panzer's the one who got the ball rolling. Tubby jumped on saying he agrees with "Panzer's" case, not Darox's. Then, Charter jumps on which just looks like a pressure vote. So in reality, your reasons were used by Panzer, but Panzer's the one who got the wagon going. You just sat back obviously by your lack of anything to say.

Lowell, if you're not gonna make a commitment to the game, then do us all a favor and replace out. If you really are gonna try and get back into it hurry it along already.