Mini 734 - GrimMafia - OVER

[zwetschenwasser]

Nuwen: I actually think that Zero's meta can be somewhat useful
Spring: Stop contradicting yourself, and what does Skillit have to do with anything?
Zach: Answer the damn question. You're just making yourself look like a question dodger.

Nuwen's flowery post is clearly just a "he's a noob" assertion (another reason why I hate reads and prefer concise arguments). I dislike BB's quick agreement with the "flawless logic". It seems like an attempt to distance yourself from Zero's lynch. Spring, you were almost nonexistent at the beginning of the game, and now you're trying to distance yourself from a Zero lynch. It seems that since everyone is assuming that scum will bus their scum buddies to death, you can fly under the radar by supporting him instead. Nuwen, your latest post is flawed, for the reason outlined in my last sentence. Zach: see above. You're dodging questions with BS reasons.

The ones in question, from towniest to scummiest:

BB
Nuwen
Spring
Zach

[springlullaby]

2. I said very clearly why I thought Zero was crapshoot, I think he has an equal chance of being awkward scum and awkward town. I also think the best argument against him right now is to get rid of the distraction.

Anti-town argument, if not scummy. No one appreciates being caught in LILO with an erratic, inexperienced townie -

but it's better than losing

. Cannibalizing "distracting" players who are little more than a "crapshoot" at being scum does nothing for town. This sounds like a thinly-veiled attempt to get Zero's (or any hapless townie's) wagon started up in earnest. A desire to lynch someone for

being town, albeit bad town

, is suspect.

1. I don't know if you realize you are actually saying the same things as I. IMO the best argument that can be made in the cases such as Zero is that lynching them will rid town of the distraction, which isn't to say that it makes for an ideal lynch. I thought my meaning was clear given the contest of my deciding to not lynch Zero.

2. Here you seems to suggest that my intention with that comment may have been to start a wagon on Zero 'in earnest', only the wagon didn't wait for me to make that comment.

[zwetschenwasser]

Spring 2. WHAA??

[springlullaby]

Spring, you were almost nonexistent at the beginning of the game, and now you're trying to distance yourself from a Zero lynch. It seems that since everyone is assuming that scum will bus their scum buddies to death, you can fly under the radar by supporting him instead.

I don't think I qualify for the adjective 'nonexistent' at any point in this game. As to your scumbuddy theory thing, I think that kinda argument is getting old. So in your mind the only explanation to my not wanting to jump on the Zero wagon is my being scum?

Skillit has to do with it that the default alignment I assign to lurker is scum, no excuses, and I think that for lurkers to not comment on a wagon is always ominous of a bad wagon.

[springlullaby]

Spring 2. WHAA??

what what?

[zwetschenwasser]

joke.

[Zachrulez]

Nuwen: I actually think that Zero's meta can be somewhat useful
Spring: Stop contradicting yourself, and what does Skillit have to do with anything?
Zach: Answer the damn question. You're just making yourself look like a question dodger.

Nuwen's flowery post is clearly just a "he's a noob" assertion (another reason why I hate reads and prefer concise arguments). I dislike BB's quick agreement with the "flawless logic". It seems like an attempt to distance yourself from Zero's lynch. Spring, you were almost nonexistent at the beginning of the game, and now you're trying to distance yourself from a Zero lynch. It seems that since everyone is assuming that scum will bus their scum buddies to death, you can fly under the radar by supporting him instead. Nuwen, your latest post is flawed, for the reason outlined in my last sentence. Zach: see above. You're dodging questions with BS reasons.

The ones in question, from towniest to scummiest:

BB
Nuwen
Spring
Zach

Question Dodger? WTF question am I dodging?

[Nuwen]

It seems that since everyone is assuming that scum will bus their scum buddies to death, you can fly under the radar by supporting him instead.

Painful WIFOM and some bad reading, effectively useless as a tell or point of reference.

1. Hopping on Zero was highlighted as a bus possibility

so,

2. Jumping off Zero relieves culpability from town players most concerned with remaining alive (arguably a bad town mentality).

thus,

3. According to you, a vote off Zero and suspicion in the direction of his strongest accusers is equivalent is 'flying under the radar.' Motivation-wise, this action is in opposition to tunneling members of Zero's wagon because it appeared scum-propelled, but will present almost identically.

[JereIC]

BB, just making sure I understand your argument: Spring is scummy because she tried to stop Zero's lynch. She did this, even though he's a townie, because she knew that his lynch would make evidence against other scum. Am I missing or messing up anything? Also, what in particular in Nuwen's post convinced you?

Nuwen, you believe that there's scum among the six players who were on the Zero bandwagon. Are you saying all the scum were in the bandwagon, or just some of them? If it's all of them, then I think you're severly underestimating the average player - how likely is it that all scum would associate themselves by joining the same bandwagon? If it's just some of them, I'm not sure I see your point - you could pick six players at random and you'd have a good chance that at least one of them would be scum. Do you think we should focus on the earlier or later voters maybe? Please expand on your thoughts about us six.

Spring, you mention your default alignment for lurkers is scum. Does that not apply to active lurkers like Zero?

[Ectomancer]

I'm not convinced of Zero being scum, I also don't see where he is town either. The accusations that seemed to be based upon knowing his alignment are either suspicious or naive.
While a nice bookmark for later, throwing out a scumbuddy theory as a reason to lynch someone today when we haven't even lynched the first guy is premature.

[zwetschenwasser]

Nuwen, it's not that WIFOM. It's a good possibility.

[Zer0ph34r]

Alrighty, peoples. You want me to post a reason as to why you shouldn't lynch me? Okay, I have a couple:

1. I am not scum.
2. If you don't lynch me, you will be the first group of people to have my help after day one, where I can actually be a big help.
3. I think most people are having a tendency to keep questioning whether or not I am scum and not really thinking to much about whether or not anyone else is (or at least, not expressing it, anyway).
4. Give me a freaking chance.

May not be good reasons, but they are reasons.

[Ectomancer]

I don't believe that lack of a chance was what led us to this point. You have a chance now. Submit your scum theories if you don't mind.

[Zachrulez]

I do see why people are voting Zero, but there are also things I do not like about his wagon.
- the fact that he has played so very un-apologetically badly actually augment the risk of him being terrible town in my eyes
- the fact that the wagon was so linear, it seems very much too easy
- the fact that skillit, our resident lurker, has not reacted to it on way or another

These are factors which make me doubt about Zero, and I want to know why you, amonst others, do not seem to consider them. What do you say?

I don't like dismissing or pegging terrible play as bad town. Do we really want to risk someone acting out this role as a defense when they are scum by tolerating such horrible play?

I can see your point about the wagon, but it hasn't resulted in a speedlynch, and with the deadline being extended, a lynch on Zero doesn't really seem easily forthcoming now.

Skillit's non response is not relevant because he's lurking anyway.

What else do you propose anyone base their arguments on if not on bad arguments and bad play?

Eh, I guess I can see why you find him scummy. I don't find him as scummy as Zero however.

[Zachrulez]

Alrighty, peoples. You want me to post a reason as to why you shouldn't lynch me? Okay, I have a couple:

1. I am not scum.
2. If you don't lynch me, you will be the first group of people to have my help after day one, where I can actually be a big help.
3. I think most people are having a tendency to keep questioning whether or not I am scum and not really thinking to much about whether or not anyone else is (or at least, not expressing it, anyway).
4. Give me a freaking chance.

May not be good reasons, but they are reasons.

1. Are we supposed to take you at your word?

2. So far, you've been little help.

3. Untrue. Read some of the more recent posts.

4. If you want a chance, then do some actual scum hunting please.

[Zer0ph34r]

Alrighty, peoples. You want me to post a reason as to why you shouldn't lynch me? Okay, I have a couple:

1. I am not scum.
2. If you don't lynch me, you will be the first group of people to have my help after day one, where I can actually be a big help.
3. I think most people are having a tendency to keep questioning whether or not I am scum and not really thinking to much about whether or not anyone else is (or at least, not expressing it, anyway).
4. Give me a freaking chance.

May not be good reasons, but they are reasons.

1. Are we supposed to take you at your word?

2. So far, you've been little help.

3. Untrue. Read some of the more recent posts.

4. If you want a chance, then do some actual scum hunting please.

Do you honestly think I would post this if I didn't want you to take my word on it? I realize I've been little help, but as I've said quite a few times now, I don't believe there's much to go by, and when the first person is lynched, I will have much more to say, to be able to find scum and such. I have read more of the recent posts, and sure people claim that others seem suspicious, but (most) people's overall suspicion is on me. And if you really want me to scum hunt, fine.

ANYONE WHO IS SCUM, TELL ME, SO I CAN VOTE TO LYNCH YOU AND NOT A TOWNIE.

There.

Oh, and the pretty much the only person I would consider to be scum is zwet because he seems to only be having it out for me. He's gotten angry whenever anyone tries to back away from lynching me. OBVIOUSLY I could be wrong about him, but that's how he comes off as to me.

[Beyond_Birthday]

Nuwen: I actually think that Zero's meta can be somewhat useful
Spring: Stop contradicting yourself, and what does Skillit have to do with anything?
Zach: Answer the damn question. You're just making yourself look like a question dodger.

Nuwen's flowery post is clearly just a "he's a noob" assertion (another reason why I hate reads and prefer concise arguments). I dislike BB's quick agreement with the "flawless logic". It seems like an attempt to distance yourself from Zero's lynch. Spring, you were almost nonexistent at the beginning of the game, and now you're trying to distance yourself from a Zero lynch. It seems that since everyone is assuming that scum will bus their scum buddies to death, you can fly under the radar by supporting him instead. Nuwen, your latest post is flawed, for the reason outlined in my last sentence. Zach: see above. You're dodging questions with BS reasons.

The ones in question, from towniest to scummiest:

BB
Nuwen
Spring
Zach

It isn't quite mere distancing, would it? I unvoted him, you know. I have two scum picks today, and they are Zero and Spring. Zero's fallen through, and while some may disagree, I think that her logic makes sense. However, I think most will agree that Spring looks very scummy, so while Zero doesn't get a free pass for the game, I do think that looking at him later is better at the moment. See how he comes up.

BB, just making sure I understand your argument: Spring is scummy because she tried to stop Zero's lynch. She did this, even though he's a townie, because she knew that his lynch would make evidence against other scum. Am I missing or messing up anything? Also, what in particular in Nuwen's post convinced you?

No, you got it down for the most part. A few other points were in there, but that is some of your argument, and his attack on you. I felt you were sensible, and Spring was irrational. Since scum must fabricate facts...*vote Spring*

I am one of (I think) one votes on Spring, but her reactions already bother me, so my vote remains for the moment. (Also, I would reason that scum would find that not lynching quickly on an easy and convincing wagon is better to scum in the long one than the temporary +1 from lynching a townie. )

@Ecto: I think that using an assumption makes for pressure votes (which is what my vote on Spring is, just gussied up. *yes, I think it served its purpose, but will remain for a bit more*)

Unfortunately, I get to see Zero's post...
Maybe... and I am being easily swayed between pretty arguments and stupid posts, Zero and Nuwen are scum together and Nuwen is desperate to save him... *slams head on desk* I'm going to have to reread, I just know it...

*Grabs Zero's wrist* STOP MAKING THIS DIFFICULT!!! *Beats his arm to the point the bones break.*

As a side note, I like's Zach's recent posts... and I will have to reread...

*Sighs* I hate rereading...

I will leave my vote on Spring until I see a reason to affirm it or switch it back.

*Makes a cup of sugar cubes, adding a little coffee to make a nice, black molasses.*

[Pablo Molinero]

...outstanding, Zero. Once again,

mod: votes?

You're getting damned close to getting my frustrated throw-my-hands-in-the-air vote.

I was seriously considering bitching about spring's question-question-question style, but it seems Nuwen beat me to the punch. Unfortunately, annoying =! scum. There's that contradictory statement of "I don't want to/wouldn't mind lynching Zero" that I paused at, but it with further thinking it doesn’t seem to be a big deal considering that's basically my line of thinking right now as well.

Anywho: Any kind of early bussing theory is kinda crap from my first-hand experience and logic; keep it simple, people, no way it happens this early in the game. I would bank on one or two of our scum pushing the wagon right now, although perhaps they jumped off seeing that it would stop short, so really we need to look at who was heading the charge at its peak. Feh. I'll get on that.

[Grimmy]

Updated² current vote count

SPRINGLULLABY - (1 OF 7)

Beyond Birthday

ECTOMANCER (1 of 7)

Nuwen

SIPYLUS (1 OF 7)

Skillit

SKILLIT(1 OF 7)

Ectomancer

Zerofear (5 of 7)

JereIC
Zwet...
Wolfy
Zach...
Sipylus

JereIC (1 of 7)

Springlul.

Zwetsomethingorother (1 of 7)

Zero

The Dreaded UNVOTED VOTE LEFT IN LIMBO

Pablo

Day ends sometime ...whenever.

rough week, so here is a cheer for our beer! hoorah

Grimmy
Sanity Challenged

[Grimmy]

ANYONE WHO IS SCUM, TELL ME, SO I CAN VOTE TO LYNCH YOU AND NOT A TOWNIE.

<--raises hand, then remembers that he is not a player in this game, and sheepishly lowers his hand and pretends he was yawning...


Carry on (said in an official "authoriative " voice to piss off Ecto.)

Grimmy

[Ectomancer]

unvote

the lurker.

ISP told me it get be up to 14 days. I'm looking for another...

[Beyond_Birthday]

Spring has allowed a certain amount of chaos then cleared it up later in an out-of-the-box revelation. However, one might view that Spring's primary motivation for this would be to make opinions and votes while keeping a real intention and suspicion from actually being seen. In a way, she is under the radar while being perfectly active.

As JereIC points out, Spring is attempting to hold off the lynch for Zero despite being all for the lycnh. Why? For favoritism of more discussion. However, this reason doesn't hold any water. While I now disaagree with a Zero lynch due to Nuwen's post, I think that allowing him to be lynched would have revealed more and led to better discussion day 2 for more accurate hunting. So, concluding that likely: Zer0 is town aligned; then I can logically percieve the idea that Spring, as scum, did not want to be associated with the lynching vote.

Sorry if this wasn't clear, as I posted in a very weary state...

1. This is a bad circular argument. 2. Here you propose to justify your vote on by an assumption of Zero's alignment, which you again propose 3. to justify based on conjucture as to the motivation of my actions coming from scum.

Numbers are mine:
1. Oh? I was completely unaware.
2. I justify my vote on the basis that you didn't want to lynch Zero, regardless of his alignment, solely on the basis of discussing more today. Well, you proposed the argument that a speedlynch is good for town as it provides a ton of information. However, a regular lynch with decent discussion must be the iceberg to sink us! What was so important it couldn't have waited? The only person who has any right in claiming that their lack of a hammer vote on Zero are people who DID NOT think he was scummy. (I am pretty sure that is Nuwen, and that's about it.)
3. Of course my vote is based on the conjecture that you're scum. If you were not scum, I wouldn't vote you.

I also don't like your first paragraph, 1.it is in my opinion saying very much of nothing. 2. Tell me, don't you think that "one might view that Spring's primary motivation for this would be to make opinions and votes while keeping a real intention and suspicion from actually being seen." can be said about anyone a propos anything?

1. I am not saying anything. I am saying that you are trying to offer opinion and lead town to your way of thinking while at the same time appearing as someone who has played little part in the actual decisions of town.
2. No, the motivation of a player, particularly the town aligned, should be self evident. I [we the town] are not here for personal preservation, but are here to play to the best of our ability to scumhunt and demonstrate a useful opinion so that if/when we die, the remaining town can make a more educated guess on who is scum and better trust/distrust arguments offered by the deceased players. Does this mean look scummy and throw our lives away? No. But is does mean that scum hunt>looking protown.

In addition, after rereading a bit, I think you have been strawmanning JereIC (or at least, been excessive in forcing him to explain himself.) Either you are setting him up, or you are scum with him.

I dunno, might be reading too far into JereIC there, but it doesn't help make you look any better.

[Ectomancer]

Most thoughts I have seen have been conjecture on whether scummy is townie, or speculation about someone else's alignment based upon an assumption of Zero's.
Looking at the voting, we don't even have a clear cut second candidate.
Are we squeezed for a deadline, or will enough of us ask for an extension of the deadline for the mod to grant one? We need enough time to expand an existing or sprout a new bandwagon.

[zwetschenwasser]

Zero: I'm scum because I think you're scum? Makes perfect sense. And you pick now to tell us that you can be more helpful if you're given the chance? And you'll say that tomorrow and do the same thing. If you're not remotely trying to be helpful now then why should we assume you'll be better tomorrow? That's gotta be the stupidest argument I've ever seen. Pablo, there are good reasons to vote zero you seem to be ignoring.

[springlullaby]

Numbers are mine:
1. Oh? I was completely unaware.
2. I justify my vote on the basis that you didn't want to lynch Zero, regardless of his alignment, solely on the basis of discussing more today. Well, you proposed the argument that a speedlynch is good for town as it provides a ton of information. However, a regular lynch with decent discussion must be the iceberg to sink us! What was so important it couldn't have waited? The only person who has any right in claiming that their lack of a hammer vote on Zero are people who DID NOT think he was scummy. (I am pretty sure that is Nuwen, and that's about it.)
3. Of course my vote is based on the conjecture that you're scum. If you were not scum, I wouldn't vote you.

2. This is strawman because you are playing off the idea that I have said speedlynch are good, I can't consider that more discussion may be good also.

3. No, you are basing your vote on the conjecture of Zero being town, which you justify by my defending him. This is what circular logic are made of.

1. I am not saying anything. I am saying that you are trying to offer opinion and lead town to your way of thinking while at the same time appearing as someone who has played little part in the actual decisions of town.
2. No, the motivation of a player, particularly the town aligned, should be self evident. I [we the town] are not here for personal preservation, but are here to play to the best of our ability to scumhunt and demonstrate a useful opinion so that if/when we die, the remaining town can make a more educated guess on who is scum and better trust/distrust arguments offered by the deceased players. Does this mean look scummy and throw our lives away? No. But is does mean that scum hunt>looking protown.

In addition, after rereading a bit, I think you have been strawmanning JereIC (or at least, been excessive in forcing him to explain himself.) Either you are setting him up, or you are scum with him.

I dunno, might be reading too far into JereIC there, but it doesn't help make you look any better.

1. Yes, and this is a bad argument because you do not propose any in thread evidence to back your argument, the consequence of which is that it could be said of anyone a propos anything.
2. What is this paragraph in aid of? How is it relevant to the argument? I don't see how it concerns me in anyway.

Now, please evidence in which instance you think I have strawmanned JereIC.