Mini 734 - GrimMafia - OVER

[Ectomancer]

Ecto unvoted 10 days ago. Both you and the mod apparently missed it. That's exactly why I mentioned the fact that you seemed to be reading a bit quickly. I wasn't being defensive, I was being offensive (though mildly because I had just done the same thing)

P.S. - Asking someone a question and then accusing them of being defensive is one of those pet peeves. It is a real bother because both town and scum will do it, and it is a catch 22 situation of damned if you do, damned if you dont.

Have you stopped beating your wife?

[Zer0ph34r]

Sorry for my absence, but damn. People sure did seem to talk about me a lot. Apparently it seems I am the first to go. (For the third time now.) People obviously don't like my playing style, but I don't care. People keep lynching me, they are one step closer to losing.

I claim to be a Townie. Not that it matters because none of you will believe me, anyway. But you asked. I have "thunked" about it and decided to change my vote.

Unvote. Vote: zwetschenwasser

People want a reason for my vote? Okay, how about the mere fact that I don't like this guy for making people hate me.

Everyone seems to find my scummy or at the very least suspicious. Every game I have been in so far, my fellow players have made the same mistake; lynching me; a Townie, on day 1. If you guys wanna be the third group of fools to do it, by all means, go right ahead. People may not LIKE my methods of playing, but too bad, I'm not changing it because I LOOK scummy, because so far, I never have been scum. Have any of you thought to yourselves, "Well, he's acting like he did in his other games, so maybe when he acts differently, he's scum?" If not, do so.

[springlullaby]

I'm up to lynch zero, the wifom is going to kill me. But I have a couple thing to say first so no one lynches yet. Posting tomorrow.

[Beyond_Birthday]

Sorry for my absence, but damn. People sure did seem to talk about me a lot. Apparently it seems I am the first to go. (For the third time now.) People obviously don't like my playing style, but I don't care. People keep lynching me, they are one step closer to losing.

I claim to be a Townie. Not that it matters because none of you will believe me, anyway. But you asked. I have "thunked" about it and decided to change my vote.

Unvote. Vote: zwetschenwasser

People want a reason for my vote? Okay, how about the mere fact that I don't like this guy for making people hate me.

Everyone seems to find my scummy or at the very least suspicious. Every game I have been in so far, my fellow players have made the same mistake; lynching me; a Townie, on day 1. If you guys wanna be the third group of fools to do it, by all means, go right ahead. People may not LIKE my methods of playing, but too bad, I'm not changing it because I LOOK scummy, because so far, I never have been scum. Have any of you thought to yourselves, "Well, he's acting like he did in his other games, so maybe when he acts differently, he's scum?" If not, do so.

Maybe I am a bit cold to this, but pleas to emotion are always null in my numbers. My vote remains. Also, the townie claim means that, if he isn't scum, it isn't a danger of hitting a power role. Still...

No, can't do it. I am trying to see this coming from ONLY townie or scum, but I can't really figure either one to me likely to do it. Frustrated townie and amateur scum (both categories in which I would place him) seem obvious. However...

I had rather there not be a hammer until we get some more opinions, but as I said, I don't buy pleas to emotion. I am leaving my vote where it is.

[Zachrulez]

Sorry for my absence, but damn. People sure did seem to talk about me a lot. Apparently it seems I am the first to go. (For the third time now.) People obviously don't like my playing style, but I don't care. People keep lynching me, they are one step closer to losing.

I claim to be a Townie. Not that it matters because none of you will believe me, anyway. But you asked. I have "thunked" about it and decided to change my vote.

Unvote. Vote: zwetschenwasser

People want a reason for my vote? Okay, how about the mere fact that I don't like this guy for making people hate me.

Everyone seems to find my scummy or at the very least suspicious. Every game I have been in so far, my fellow players have made the same mistake; lynching me; a Townie, on day 1. If you guys wanna be the third group of fools to do it, by all means, go right ahead. People may not LIKE my methods of playing, but too bad, I'm not changing it because I LOOK scummy, because so far, I never have been scum. Have any of you thought to yourselves, "Well, he's acting like he did in his other games, so maybe when he acts differently, he's scum?" If not, do so.

Hint: If no one likes your playing style, perhaps it's time to change it.

Claiming that Zwet made people hate you? Give me a break man. That is just ridiculous.

Zwet had nothing to do with me finding you scummy. My analysis of your play did.

[zwetschenwasser]

Zero. You are nuts. You're calling us fools, flailing in random emotional pleas. You said you've been the first to go in two other games, yet you forgot to mention that Wolf did a meta on you and found that you actually were more helpful, pro-town, and excited about finding scum in other games. You are lying to your teeth, and taking parts of arguments that you find most appealing, and discarding the rest.

[Zer0ph34r]

You all are saying I was emotional? I don't recall this at all. When did I say anything emotional? I think people take me defending myself as emotional. And okay, zwet apparently didn't make people hate me, but it sure did seem like it because nobody had beef with me until after zwet and I got into a brawl. And as I said, I'm not gonna change my gameplay just because you don't like it. I was excited in my first game because IT WAS MY FIRST GAME. That's why I wanted to find mafia, because I thought it was gonna be easy and fun. Before I realized how stupid people were in this game. And if you knew more about my gameplay, which you don't, I never lie in this game, that's why I would make a terrible Mafia Member (for the mafia that is). But as I said before, go ahead and lynch me, you'll be one step closer to losing.

[zwetschenwasser]

100% Unemotional post right above, right?

[Pablo Molinero]

Ugh. For zwet,

unvote

, you're solid, mang. Zero, you aren't helping your cause. Instead of "woe is me" at least try and give us a legit reason not to vote for you OR perhaps someone why someone is more scummy than you. Right now, you've only given us a OMGUS.

I have a legit question for people: how often have you, personally, seen mafia compared to townies utilize appeals to emotion in their final throes?

Mod:

What's our vote count at?

[zwetschenwasser]

I usually see Mafia flailing like that right before they're lynched. He's trying to get people to feel sorry for him for being a noob that was the first one lynched in three games. Well, you know what Zero? I was the first one lynched in all the six games I played in another forum and I'm not whining about it. You sound more and more like scum the more your posts become more whiny. Post something useful, dammit!

[JereIC]

I was about to say the same thing as zwet, but actually looking over some other games it's about 50%/50%, although I only found about six games where there were appeals to emotion like this. That doesn't really weaken the case against him IMHO. He still hasn't contributed much to the game (active lurking), and his only defenses have been modified versions of the newbie defense.

[Ectomancer]

I hate the "too scummy to be scum" type of play. I've pulled it off successfully myself a time or two.
The question is whether Zero is actually trying that style gambit. Not trying to be insulting, but I don't think he has the finesse even if the elevator can reach that floor yet.

I hate to meta people, but if he's only got 2 games, I'll look at this accusation of being a better scum hunter in earlier games.

[zwetschenwasser]

In a newbie game I'm in the townie that was lynched day 1 made no appeal to emotions at all. He hardly cared that he was being lynched, he simply provided the town with the information he knew and his final opinions and bam.

[springlullaby]

JereIC has hit a nerve with a few people, but looking at his most recent posts, something stood out: he says that using Zero as scum, "I think we'll be able to use that to implicate other players as scum" (or something like that). It's full of confidence, but if he's wrong, we'll have nothing to go off of to make said implications. Now, unless he's bussing on day one to set up lynches later (seems very unlikely), it dosen't seem to me that scum would make that assumption. ...did that make sense to anyone?

I'd like you to explain why you think the comment made by JereIC is anything but scummy.

Because to me that comment is one of the scummiest he has made, it is the equivalent of saying 'we should lynch scum because it's good to lynch scum', which says exactly nothing.

------------------------------

Ectomancer, I'd like to know what you think of JereIC.

[springlullaby]

Honestly, the only person I think he can implicate now is Spring. Mostly thinking of how he voted for her at the random stage, how she hasn't found him acting weird, and how she seems to be helping him out now. If he's scum, I think all that indicates she's scum too. If not, she still may be scum, but we can have a lot more fruitful day tomorrow.

This passage is what bad arguments is made of,

1) Here you seems to say that you want to lynch Zero to implicate me, that just doesn't compute.

2) Please back up words like 'she seems to be helping him out', and 'she hasn't found him acting weird'.

[Nuwen]

Hi.

My request for a replacement in this game has been twice overlooked, so it appears that I'll be playing with you guys out of necessity. There are worse motivations, I suppose.

I'm going to touch on a few key points of this thread and interact with you lot prior to posting any comprehensive analysis. Asking for one equates a vapid gesture on your part, valuing rote participation over genuine contribution. Don't do it.

Ectomancer

• Ecto's assertive playstyle is belligerent and, early in the game, appeared to focus on a target with little provocation and even less lucid logic. Originally, his insistence on an arbitrary end to the random voting stage irked me; he appeared to be providing himself with herring ammunition to be used against any player questioning what he called 'logic.'
  
  I didn't like Ecto's cavalier willingness to "persue" players on self-dictated constraints shared by no one else in the thread. This behavior presented itself as active scum weeding, with the effect of following illogical or immaterial leads. See post 66, where at no time did PerAdua recommend retrograde motion back to the RVS. He, like I, was highlighting Ecto's tendency to seize a herring. The proof-positive to PerAdua's suspicions is, ironically, in Ecto's response in 70:
  

  PerAdua, your assessment of Ectomancer's play so far please.

  Seconded. I'm confounded by a player so determined to get their random voting phase. Random vote away. Please get it out of your system so that you can play the game with the rest of us.

  Rather than addressing Per's concerns about Ecto's jaunty pressure tactics, he continues with his accusatory style, dismissing the point via strawman. I don't believe his play is particularly scummy, but I do wonder if Ecto knows that blind pressure can flip the finger of suspicion back in his direction - as a town player, he lacks caution.

Zer0ph34r

• People want a reason for my vote? Okay, how about the mere fact that I don't like this guy for making people hate me.
  
  Everyone seems to find my scummy or at the very least suspicious. Every game I have been in so far, my fellow players have made the same mistake; lynching me; a Townie, on day 1. If you guys wanna be the third group of fools to do it, by all means, go right ahead. People may not LIKE my methods of playing, but too bad, I'm not changing it because I LOOK scummy, because so far, I never have been scum. Have any of you thought to yourselves, "Well, he's acting like he did in his other games, so maybe when he acts differently, he's scum?" If not, do so.

  This is a piss-poor defense for your play; it's a small wonder you're a repeated d1 lynch target. If you commit actions with scummy origins, even while playing town, then your peers have little choice but to believe that you're as scummy as your play suggests. Yes, you do need to change your play - playing to win as a town member involves
  finding scum
  , not witlessly drawing attention to yourself and
  away
  from potential scum. As a vanilla townie, there is only one certain axiom: "I am town." Behaving in any manner contrary to that is aiding scum and distracting the town.
  
  On this note, I really doubt that Zer0ph34r is scum. He's a flop-eared ninny, too stupid to set up the complex WIFOM situation that would certify him as scum. Idiotic, emotional, and unable to defend himself, yes. Obvious scum, no.
  
  Because of this...
  
  {JereIC, Zwet, Beyond B, Zach, Sipylus, WolfBlitzer}
  
  There is scum on this wagon. Zero is an easy target, as new players usually are. His erratic play and inability to grasp advanced Mafia theory makes him an ideal d1 herring, a perfect opportunity to force a claim from him (and potentially other town power-roles, in an attempt to validate or disprove Zero's original claim) and put themselves in a wet dream on night 1.

Speedlynching

• A big scrub-scum mistake is double-teaming someone to start a speedy bandwagon or jumping on the l-1/hammer votes to secure an ineffectual lynch. Because of this, a quicklynch can provide
  more
  incriminating information than a dozen pages of mutable discussion. Voting patterns are quotable, brief, and far more tangible than semantic-drive suspicion six pages into day 1.
  
  A short day is bad for town because it limits
  quality
  and
  quantity
  of information gathered that day. However, if the day is shorted
  because
  quality information was presented - two scum buddies foolishly jumping on a quicklynch - then the trepidations behind a short day are moot.
  Think about the logic behind wiki axioms before applying them
  .

[zwetschenwasser]

I disagree with you. You've overlooked that Zero had acted much more protown in other games.

[Nuwen]

Three games is not a sample size I'm going to trust in meta decisions about a new player with 121 game posts. The only cogent conclusion I see is that Zero is new.

[JereIC]

2) Please back up words like 'she seems to be helping him out', and 'she hasn't found him acting weird'.

In posts 135 and 144 you said you're ambivalent about Zero without commenting on the actual case against him.

In post 78 Sipylus made his case against Zero. In post 83 you started the discussion of speedlynches, and in 91, 97, and 104 demanded that everyone answer questions about speedlynches - right as the discussion about Zero was heating up. In 161 you told him to claim, then in 177 said you were up to lynch him but that we should wait a day so you could make a post. However, your posts today weren't about his case, it was about your case against me. That's twice you've tried to sidetrack the discussion from Zero to something else.

[springlullaby]

2) Please back up words like 'she seems to be helping him out', and 'she hasn't found him acting weird'.

In posts 135 and 144 you said you're ambivalent about Zero without commenting on the actual case against him.

In post 78 Sipylus made his case against Zero. In post 83 you started the discussion of speedlynches, and in 91, 97, and 104 demanded that everyone answer questions about speedlynches - right as the discussion about Zero was heating up. In 161 you told him to claim, then in 177 said you were up to lynch him but that we should wait a day so you could make a post. However, your posts today weren't about his case, it was about your case against me. That's twice you've tried to sidetrack the discussion from Zero to something else.

Then I'll point to you that I've made my mind about Zero clear enough and discussed him as much as you did.
Tell me, what do you want to discuss about Zero?

Then tell me, what make you so sure Zero is scum to the point that you think discussing anything else is scummy?

[JereIC]

You haven't made your opinion clear at all. You said yesterday you were up for lynching Zero, but you haven't voted for him. You say it's a crapshoot as to whether he's scum, but don't explain why the case is weak. You haven't commented on Nuwen's analysis, which could support your case against me pretty well, but would require you to talk about Zero.

My point's not just about content - your timing and apparent unwillingness to discuss Zero, even when it's in your interest, are suspect. That's what makes it look like you're trying to cover for him while distancing yourself from him, and if he turns out to be scummy, that's going to make you look scummy too.

[springlullaby]

You haven't made your opinion clear at all. You said yesterday you were up for lynching Zero, but you haven't voted for him. You say it's a crapshoot as to whether he's scum, but don't explain why the case is weak. You haven't commented on Nuwen's analysis, which could support your case against me pretty well, but would require you to talk about Zero.

1. He was at L1, I didn't want to hammer because there were other things I wanted to comment on.
2. I said very clearly why I thought Zero was crapshoot, I think he has an equal chance of being awkward scum and awkward town. I also think the best argument against him right now is to get rid of the distraction.

My point's not just about content - your timing and apparent unwillingness to discuss Zero, even when it's in your interest, are suspect. That's what makes it look like you're trying to cover for him while distancing yourself from him, and if he turns out to be scummy, that's going to make you look scummy too.

[/quote]

1. Apparent willingness to discuss Zero, where? I said everything that there is to say about him already. Please point out where you discussed him in any detail.

2. What you say here would be remotely workable only if Zero is scum. Which led me to the question, what make you so sure Zero is scum?

___________________

Ok, I've got enough I think. I decided that I'm not lynching Zero.

Vote JereIC

: circular logic, generalities sprouting, bad arguments. See my discussion vs him.

I think it's a much better vote than Zero who has a higher chance of being just an idiot.

[Beyond_Birthday]

[Insert long and intelligent analysis here]

Brilliant. If Zero is scum, you are the obvious scum partner. Therefore, Zero is not scum, and you are scum. (This is tongue in cheek, do not take seriously. But seriously, bravo, and I agree with your logic.)

Unvote

Now, moving on to the next point:

Actually, your initial play and the questions relating to them, Spring, are a bit scummy in my book. Your questions have offered you a bit of defense, but JereIC, I feel, has a better point in your unwillingness to lynch him. It could either be:

A) you do not want to lynch a townie.

OR

B) You do not want to lynch a scum partner. However, this is severely lacking. I think if you were both scum, then you would rather bus him off, by your current logic.

As a result, I am working off of Zero is stupid townie (this and Nuwen's argument), and as a result, I think that your defense "[JereIC's] argument would apply if Zero is scum" is false. I think that

Vote Springlullaby

is a better place for my vote.

(As for Ecto, I don't think his aggression was scummy, so I agree with you to that end, Nuwen.)

[springlullaby]

I'm not getting why you are voting me Beyond, please explain better.

[Zachrulez]

Honestly I haven't been paying much attention through most of the weekend, so I have been reading in order to attempt to catch up with the discussion.

I do not like Spring's vote on JereIC... in fact after reading JereIC's points against Spring, and looking back at the game context, I really don't like her much at all.

I'm just finding it hard to believe that JereIC's points against Spring are scummy.