Mini 729 - WaTR Mafia - Game Over!

[Rhinox]

mod: how recently was Rogue Shenanigans prodded?

RS was already replaced by megaflareon...

Korts, if you read the flavor of his lynching, It only required 6 of us (or one less than normal) to lynch him. At least that is what it looked like to me. It just seems that you are doing nothing but making decisions in this game that are totally one sided. You are thinking about yourself and not the good of the "town" as a whole, I think.

This absolutely sounds like you think we or at least korts should have known that the 6th vote was the hammer. If not, what are you saying then?

As far as Korts choosing to watch without the town's consent, its WIFOM to attempt to figure out if thats scummy or pro-town. Maybe Korts is scum, and watched so someone from the town couldn't, or maybe Korts is town and watched to prevent scum from taking watch. Even if Korts is scum, it doesn't mean he was lying about his watching results, and it doesn't mean we'll magically get his information if we kill him and he is lying. Therefore, lynching Korts based on his decision to watch last night is not a good idea.

I do have a theory, but it involves someone I know 100% is town to watch tonight. Since I'm the only player I know 100% is town, that means I would have to watch tonight. I'll talk more about my theory tomorrow, if I watch and have information that can confirm or disprove my theory.

In the meantime, lets actually try to find some scum, eh? Going to go analyze some players induvidually, PbPa style.

---

Mod-Edit Votecount 2-2

Prom King - 2 (BSG, Juls)
Korts - 1 (freeko)

Not Voting - 7 (Rhinox, Megaflareon, Prom King, Lunar_Tick, Korts, Sipylus, Raider)

With 10 alive, it takes 6 to lynch.

Currently seeking a replacement for Lunar Tick.

[raider8169]

I do have a theory, but it involves someone I know 100% is town to watch tonight. Since I'm the only player I know 100% is town, that means I would have to watch tonight. I'll talk more about my theory tomorrow, if I watch and have information that can confirm or disprove my theory.

In the meantime, lets actually try to find some scum, eh? Going to go analyze some players induvidually, PbPa style.

Are you asking everyone to just let you watch tonight and test out your theory?

[Korts]

For the first part, what are you talking about the L-1 vote being the hammer? As for the justification, I explained it quite clearly I thought. The claim of "cleric" seemed to fit only marginally with the theme, like a fakeclaim made up on the spot.

From the way I read, and I guess I could be reading wrong because I joined late and wasn't there as it transpired, but I was under the impression that the L-1 vote that you cast was actually the hammer vote unbeknownst to you or anyone else. When you removed your vote and then replaced it, it did not matter because he had long been dead. Is that correct?

Oh. That's correct. I thought you were accusing me of purposely placing a hammer.

I'm fine for the moment being to let Rhinox watch tonight. It's not a big responsibility anyway, according to my results.

[Rhinox]

I do have a theory, but it involves someone I know 100% is town to watch tonight. Since I'm the only player I know 100% is town, that means I would have to watch tonight. I'll talk more about my theory tomorrow, if I watch and have information that can confirm or disprove my theory.

In the meantime, lets actually try to find some scum, eh? Going to go analyze some players induvidually, PbPa style.

Are you asking everyone to just let you watch tonight and test out your theory?

yes, and no. Firstly, I figured we'd talk about who's watching tonight when tonight comes. Secondly, my theory is just that - a theory. Saying what I'm speculating won't effect the outcome, but IMO doesn't need discussed now because its all pure speculation, and doesn't help us catch scum today.

[freeko]

Huh? Where did you go from some random to 100% confirmed town? I must have missed that. Is there anyone in the game that can actually confirm your town alignment?

[Juls]

Freeko are you just not reading or do you often have difficulties understanding what people mean? He is saying that HE is the only person that HE knows to be 100% town (because he knows his role). He is NOT saying that we know him to be 100% town.

[Korts]

I have half a mind to just lynch freeko for all the misinterpretations and bullshit. Also why do I get the feeling that only three or four of us are talking? There should be ten of us still alive and pointing fingers for fuckssake.

[Rhinox]

Freeko are you just not reading or do you often have difficulties understanding what people mean? He is saying that HE is the only person that HE knows to be 100% town (because he knows his role). He is NOT saying that we know him to be 100% town.

QFT

I have half a mind to just lynch freeko for all the misinterpretations and bullshit. Also why do I get the feeling that only three or four of us are talking? There should be ten of us still alive and pointing fingers for fuckssake.

and... QFT. Well, minus the lynching freeko part. I don't think freeko is scum, I just think he's completely off track with his scum hunting. If he were scum, with a faked mason claim, I would expect him to start lurking to hide behind his facade of innocence... oh hey, kinda like what Prom King is doing

[raider8169]

I have half a mind to just lynch freeko for all the misinterpretations and bullshit. Also why do I get the feeling that only three or four of us are talking? There should be ten of us still alive and pointing fingers for fuckssake.

and... QFT. Well, minus the lynching freeko part. I don't think freeko is scum, I just think he's completely off track with his scum hunting. If he were scum, with a faked mason claim, I would expect him to start lurking to hide behind his facade of innocence... oh hey, kinda like what Prom King is doing

Prom King has yet to respond to the claimed mason part if I am not mistaken.

[Rhinox]

Prom King has yet to respond to the claimed mason part if I am not mistaken.

Thats absolutely true... PK hasn't said anything about the mason claim since he said "*wink wink* I know freeko is town". I don't know whats so hard for him to actually answer a question and paraphrase his role PM for us...

[Megaflareon]

I'm remaining undecided on the freeko situation until Prom King claims or denies the mason claim.

[freeko]

Did you even pay attention to day 1 at all? Or did you just jump in and not bother to ready any of it?

Anyways. My speculation is that PK is trying to hide something from me. He did not participate in the discussion at all. All he really did was force me into tipping my hand and making me need to claim my role all the more relevant to my survival. The problem always has been that I cannot confirm him, but he can confurm me. Then I recall saying that Occam can clear us with an ability he has, and shockingly he is the one who goes bye-bye during the night phase (presumably NK'd?) though its not official yet it seems as his role has not been revealed. So I am now quite pissed off because 2 of the people who would be able to "help" me are gone from the game in one way or another and the other has not bothered to do anything for about 10 days, though PK is still supposedly in the game.

[raider8169]

Did you even pay attention to day 1 at all? Or did you just jump in and not bother to ready any of it?

Anyways. My speculation is that PK is trying to hide something from me. He did not participate in the discussion at all. All he really did was force me into tipping my hand and making me need to claim my role all the more relevant to my survival. The problem always has been that I cannot confirm him, but he can confurm me. Then I recall saying that Occam can clear us with an ability he has, and shockingly he is the one who goes bye-bye during the night phase (presumably NK'd?) though its not official yet it seems as his role has not been revealed. So I am now quite pissed off because 2 of the people who would be able to "help" me are gone from the game in one way or another and the other has not bothered to do anything for about 10 days, though PK is still supposedly in the game.

You said Occam can clear you? I dont recall reading that. How do you know that he could clear you?

[freeko]

Go read post #186 again then.

[Korts]

Reading that I can on one hand imagine at least one of freeko and PK being scum and killing Occam because they're afraid of an investigation; on the other hand, Occam had already vouched for PK and freeko being town right there and then. I'm interested to see where this takes us.

freeko, did you say that you can't confirm PK's alignment?

[Juls]

If I recall in that post he said he can confirm PK on one night and freeko on another night. Read my theory under the Occam section of my big long post. I think that is where he has wandered off to and what he is doing during the day.

[Rhinox]

If I recall in that post he said he can confirm PK on one night and freeko on another night. Read my theory under the Occam section of my big long post. I think that is where he has wandered off to and what he is doing during the day.

Thats... a very interesting thought.

[Rhinox]

freeko, did you say that you can't confirm PK's alignment?

What was said, is that, alegedly, PK knows 100% that freeko is town, but freeko is unsure of PK's allignment and can't confirm him.

Possibilities:
1)PK is scum, freeko is town. My feelings, Its possible, but unlikely. Here's why: PK voluntarily confirmed freeko. It wouldn't make sense for scum-PK to do that. Instead, PK could have hoped freeko was lynched, and shown up as mason. Then later in the game, if/when PK was found suspicious, he could have claimed to be freeko's mason partner, and there would have been no counter claim. He also could have stated they were confirmed to each other, and it never would have been known that PK wasn't confirmed. Of course, freeko would have claimed before getting lynched, as it seems it was getting to that point anyways, and the specific role information would have then got out anyways. PK's flaky play so far makes me think that the early role reveal is on par with flaky play, and not some scheme to make us think he's town for being so willing to prevent his townie mason partner's lynch.

2)Both are scum. My feelings, its possible, but unlikely. It would be a gambit, but with freeko being "confirmed", and PK not, this seems on paper like it would be a perfect ploy to make freeko seem like town after lynching scum-PK. Freeko's mention of wanting to lynch PK makes me worry this is possible. However, I doubt this is something that freeko and PK could pull off and improvise on the fly after the freeko wagon started, so for this to be the case, it would have to have been prepared in the night. I find it unlikely that, especially in a mini with probably either 3 or 4 on the mafia team, that a gambit would be tried D1 to intentionally sacrifice 1 member, and implicate another, with the chances of it working being less than if the scum just played straight.

3)Both are town. My feelings, most likely, based on the unlikliness of the alternatives. Either way, based on my feelings of option 2, freeko is probably town. PK may or may not be town, but shouldn't be our focus today. There are probably 3 other scum in the game even if PK is scum. Our focus should be on finding the other scum, and worry about PK later in the game if he makes it that far.

4)freeko is scum, PK is town. Impossible, unless PK doesn't understand his role PM, and freeko is lying about being confirmed. Given PK is being flaky, that is why

PK really needs to paraphrase his role pm for us

But if we hope to acomplish anything productive today, we need the other half of our town participating. Me, Korts, Juls, Freeko, and Raider have been posting mostly regularly today.

Sipylus, LT, and PK pretty much need replaced.

BSG and megaflareon have been posting, but I would like to see some more participation... mf moreso than BSG.

[Juls]

PK is scum, freeko is town. My feelings, Its possible, but unlikely. Here's why: PK voluntarily confirmed freeko. It wouldn't make sense for scum-PK to do that. Instead, PK could have hoped freeko was lynched, and shown up as mason. Then later in the game, if/when PK was found suspicious, he could have claimed to be freeko's mason partner, and there would have been no counter claim.

(This is a rushed post, I have to leave in 4 minutes for class)
I disagree with this a little. I think it would more advantageous for PK to claim while freeko is still alive so that freeko CAN confirm him. He probably didn't count on people questioning his alignment and that is why he claimed so early. I would have to go back and read but it was PK that claimed, not freeko. Plus, freeko has clearly stated that he doesn't know PK's alignment and PK seems to be avoiding the question. The way I look at it, PK is unconfirmed. Freeko is unconfirmed as well but I would tend to believe him more than PK because he brought up the alignment question. I say we treat them as unconfirmed. If they are the best to lynch they are the best to lynch. I would say a PK death that flips mason confirms freeko's alignment but I am not sure I would say the same the opposite way.

(Sorry if this makes no sense, if it is unclear I will clarify tonight when I get home)

[raider8169]

PK is scum, freeko is town. My feelings, Its possible, but unlikely. Here's why: PK voluntarily confirmed freeko. It wouldn't make sense for scum-PK to do that. Instead, PK could have hoped freeko was lynched, and shown up as mason. Then later in the game, if/when PK was found suspicious, he could have claimed to be freeko's mason partner, and there would have been no counter claim.

(This is a rushed post, I have to leave in 4 minutes for class)
I disagree with this a little. I think it would more advantageous for PK to claim while freeko is still alive so that freeko CAN confirm him. He probably didn't count on people questioning his alignment and that is why he claimed so early. I would have to go back and read but it was PK that claimed, not freeko. Plus, freeko has clearly stated that he doesn't know PK's alignment and PK seems to be avoiding the question. The way I look at it, PK is unconfirmed. Freeko is unconfirmed as well but I would tend to believe him more than PK because he brought up the alignment question. I say we treat them as unconfirmed. If they are the best to lynch they are the best to lynch. I would say a PK death that flips mason confirms freeko's alignment but I am not sure I would say the same the opposite way.

(Sorry if this makes no sense, if it is unclear I will clarify tonight when I get home)

Out of all the opitions I think this one makes the most sense to me. The next being both of them town. Why else could one confirm the other and not get it in return. Maybe he was hoping that freeko would confirm him anyways even if it wasnt in his PM. For that matter if is was in one person PM and not the others that should mean something. Reguardless PK needs to post.

[Rhinox]

Out of all the opitions I think this one makes the most sense to me. The next being both of them town. Why else could one confirm the other and not get it in return.

So you're saying that just because PK isn't confirmed, that automatically makes him scum, because otherwise the role doesn't make sense? Isn't that kinda a form of trying to outguess the mod? If thats the case, why would PK have bothered to confirm freeko, unless he didn't know freeko couldn't confirm him. But if thats the case, how does freeko know PK can confirm him?

I would expect the role PMs to be consistent, like:

PK, you are scum/town. you are mason with freeko, and you know freeko's allignment, but he doesn't know yours; freeko, you are town, and a mason with PK, and you don't know PK's allignment, but he knows yours

-or-

PK, you are scum/town. you are mason with freeko, and you know freeko's allignment; freeko, you are town, and a mason with PK, and you don't know PK's allignment.

Of course, I guess that means I'm sorta playing the outguessing the mod game as well...

@Juls: I agree, if PK is dies and is revealed Town mason, or scum mason, then freeko is definately town. I don't see how paired scum masons makes much sense, considering scum already can talk to each other at night. If PK dies and is scum, w/o the mason part, then we should probably assume freeko is scum.

I'm starting to rethink right now... the only other game I've played in with masons, they both claimed to be confirmed, so they were either both town, or both scum, for sure. So, it was considered bad to lynch them because if they were town, scum would pretty much have to lynch 1 or both of them by LyLo anyways, since confirmed town players are dangerous to the scum, and if they were scum, The likelyhood that an sk would have taken one out, or a cop investigating them to confirm by day 3 or 4 when it would be getting close to LyLo would have made two scum faking confimred masons practically suicide. Lynching PK, if he is the best choice, might confirm freeko, even if that makes freeko the likely nk choice.

Since PK has been dodging questions, which is definately scummy, and assuming he's unconfirmed, thats a good enough reason for a vote IMO. I certainly don't find any of the other active players as scummy as PK is right now.

vote: prom king

time to start talking.

[raider8169]

So you're saying that just because PK isn't confirmed, that automatically makes him scum, because otherwise the role doesn't make sense? Isn't that kinda a form of trying to outguess the mod? If thats the case, why would PK have bothered to confirm freeko, unless he didn't know freeko couldn't confirm him. But if thats the case, how does freeko know PK can confirm him?

I would expect the role PMs to be consistent, like:

PK, you are scum/town. you are mason with freeko, and you know freeko's allignment, but he doesn't know yours; freeko, you are town, and a mason with PK, and you don't know PK's allignment, but he knows yours

-or-

PK, you are scum/town. you are mason with freeko, and you know freeko's allignment; freeko, you are town, and a mason with PK, and you don't know PK's allignment.

Of course, I guess that means I'm sorta playing the outguessing the mod game as well...

By no means am I saying his is scum. It just made the most sense to be as why else could they not confirm each other. PK needs to post and help this make sense. He was replaced out of his other game so its very possible he has left the site.

The vote is pointless for now but it should help when he is replaced.

@freeko, do you have anything that can help this make more sense?

[Korts]

For what it's worth raider I was unconfirmed mason with my partner being confirmed in Pick a Player (link in my wiki if interested, I'm too lazy atm), and we were both town, so that point doesn't stand; since this is Jebus' first modded game anyway, we can't try and guess the likeliness of certain roles in a setup of his based on modding meta.

[freeko]

@raider: I pretty much laid everything out on the table except my exact role pm. There is nothing more I can do with this. Rhinox has it right on the money when he said that PK knows my alignment and I do not know his. I will say that since this is a unconventional game, I am equating what the actual given role I have to the closest thing that I know exists within the mainstream mafia roles. I function exactly like a mason would in a "standard" game. The doctor was called a Pagan Cleric and seemingly required 1 less player to lynch him. So not everything is completely standard, and I presume that many people have little twists like this in their role pms as well. Though I have the basic town win condition of "find the scum", I think I am likely to be an indifferent 3rd party. As I only care about getting to the next town alive. Most of this is all stuff I have said before, a little reading would have shown you this. I know and PK knows that I am town aligned. I do not know his alignment though.

[Korts]

vote: Prom King

Post or perish.