Mini 734 - GrimMafia - OVER

[zwetschenwasser]

You never even asked a question!

[Zachrulez]

Well, Sipylus, what the hell do you want me to say, what could be meaningful at this point in the game? Not much if anything.

zwetschenwasser, you say it was a post to make it look like I was posting something meaningful, well I wasn't trying to make it look like that. It was a serious question and NOBODY had an answer, meaning that there is NOTHING TO GO BUY.

So what we got here is a guy that said there's nothing meaningful at this point of the game, and later on emhasizes the fact that there's nothing to go by. (Yes I corrected the spelling.)

This ignores... (I'm not claiming this to be a complete list)

1. Ecto's vote on me. Delved into an interesting discussion about possible scum motivations into my vote. (Even though it was just the first person and first crappy reason I could think of.)

2. Spring's bandwagon which pretty much resulted from stating that we should just lynch Ecto and call it a day.

3. Spring asserting a speedlynch is the best thing that could happen to the town on page 2. The reasoning to this afterwards was interesting, but I can't really say I agree with it.

All this before Zero's first post about what could be meaningful about the game at that point. (Hint, look at the posts where I got these 3 interesting things, and make sure to pay attention to some of the bandwagons that started forming early on.)

I am leaning minorly on the scum end for Spring and JereIC, my vote on Spring being the only major lead I could see when I made the vote, and finding myself curious about why JereIC called a spring 3rd vote reckless before recklessly casting a

4th

vote on spring without realizing it, and then unvoted to avoid any stigma or possible suspicion that would come with being the 4th vote.

Anyway, I'm bothered by the fact that Zero's vote is on Spring, that he hasn't bothered to retract the vote which on my understanding was, and still is random. He gets into a fight with Zwet over active lurking, which is interesting cause I don't see Zwet contributing all that much either... but yeah. Sitting on a spring bandwagon while emphasizing that we have nothing to go on?

I'm gonna do this.

Unvote Vote : Zer0ph34r

[Beyond_Birthday]

That is, as far as page 6 cases go, very strong Zach. *Zach loses percentages points.*

Additionally, I have to agree that Zero has been claiming some sort of question has been asked, but no such question has been manifested nor has zero clarified on what the question is or, more importantly, where it is.

I am thinking, however, that Zero doesn't necessarily connect to Spring... Yes, Spring has garnered a bit of notable suspicion, however, Zero, probably unwittingly but he may have planned this, seems to show a bit distancing in voting Spring and leaving it there for an extended period of time. It is both subtle and a strangely strong move to demonstrate that, by vote analysis, he was voting scum. (This statement assumes that both Spring and Zero are scum together, and I present this so the reader is capable of following my understanding on the possibility of Zero+Spring scum.)

I could be underestimating Zero (or Spring if scum had time to talk pre game) but by demonstrated play, I don't believe Zero would think to keep his vote on Spring for the purpose of late game distancing (on the assumption that Spring would be lynched before him. This would also work if Spring lived to late game.)

In either case, I do agree that Zero has been unhelpful and arguably scummy. Since my vote isn't on anybody and this would put Zero at L-4-5 (I'm not sure), I am comfortable voting him given the case by Zach. (Best so far, which I can conclude could work with my theory on Spring, who will need further investigation for me to clear her off strange play. [Spring, your gambit does work for me, but your early play leaves a bit to be desired. However, you are still in the gray and more helpful than Zero's active lurking.])

Vote Zer0ph34r

[Ectomancer]

*sigh*

Ok, Zero did ask a question, but he asked it of Sipylus who hasn't posted in 5 days.
Zero apparently forgot who he asked the question of, because he keeps asking Zwet for it.
The question has been in that quote pyramid I keep concocting, yet Birthday apparently missed that too, because he's asking Zero where he asked a question.

Zach however, has good points.

The rest of you shoot me in the head if this is going to keep up.

[Pablo Molinero]

The rest of you shoot me in the head if this is going to keep up.

No, me first plz.

From the past few pages, I've also sorted Zer0ph34r into the 'mildly worthless' category, but as I've seen in other games, it’s not necessarily scum. I share his sentiments of "nothing to go off of" but you gotta accept that's just the nature of the game and you can't be too distracted by it on Day 1. Instead of complaining about it, do some prodding and see what happens.

Beyond_Birthday and PerArdua, you can't honestly think a scoring system or 'points' or any rubbish like that will actually work… do you?

zwet, surely you see the irony in arguing about posting useful content and then saying nothing else. Give us your thoughts on some people, or at least your top 3 to start with. Sipylus and nuwen, too.

btw: Zer0ph34r and spring are the ones that have caught my attention so far, what with being the centers of controversy so far. It seems like a scum's MO to stir things up.

[Beyond_Birthday]

Beyond_Birthday and PerArdua, you can't honestly think a scoring system or 'points' or any rubbish like that will actually work… do you?

First of all acknowledging that the "7for7" idea is a logical fallacy, I haven't lost with it yet. (Of course, I would say I am probably far more objective than most people, and how can you possibly have an objective rating system without numbers?)

Further: Yes... Yes, I do. I realize that this may be the game to beat me, but I feel that this is the best way for me to play and approach the game. Just need to remember that sometimes, numbers lie. (Too townie is a logical fallacy, but not too scummy isn't.)

[Ectomancer]

The rest of you shoot me in the head if this is going to keep up.

No, me first plz.

From the past few pages, I've also sorted Zer0ph34r into the 'mildly worthless' category, but as I've seen in other games, it’s not necessarily scum. I share his sentiments of "nothing to go off of" but you gotta accept that's just the nature of the game and you can't be too distracted by it on Day 1. Instead of complaining about it, do some prodding and see what happens.

Well obviously I disagree, but I can agree with the ending sentiment.

Beyond_Birthday and PerArdua, you can't honestly think a scoring system or 'points' or any rubbish like that will actually work… do you?

A number of people (notably Vollkan) use a scoring type system. Whatever helps you catch scum I reckon. Personally I put more stock into sniffing out others motivations rather than a ticker that moves every time someone posts.

zwet, surely you see the irony in arguing about posting useful content and then saying nothing else. Give us your thoughts on some people, or at least your top 3 to start with. Sipylus and nuwen, too.

Well really he did go after Zero even if his reasoning was a bit flawed. Also, it is time to get lurkers replaced.

@mod- Prods for those who haven't posted in the last 3 days please?

btw: Zer0ph34r and spring are the ones that have caught my attention so far, what with being the centers of controversy so far. It seems like a scum's MO to stir things up.

Well Zer0 isn't trying to stir things up, he's trying to figure a way not to contribute. Spring may be stirring things up, but what do you think would happen if we all followed Zero's example? (and yours to a degree if you also "have nothing to go off")
Scum's MO is a bad bit of a phrase. Scum and town will take many of the same actions (that's why it isn't the easiest thing to catch them). Rather than trying to say that "they are being the center of controversy" and calling that scummy, you need to try to figure out

why

they seem to want to be at the center of things, and watch

what they do

while they are there, and then

how

they get out of it. From there you can derive scummy motivations.

[Zer0ph34r]

Beyond, you think I planned Spring to be suspicious? How would I do that? My first post was a vote for him and then he was thought of as suspicious.

And as for the question thing, it wasn't directed towards anyone specific, just ANYONE. I would like to know what info we could've gone on at the time I posted it to lynch someone.

Jeez, I always come off as suspicious. I'm not going to just change my vote because someone tells me to, because then they'll think I'm scum and I can't stick with this vote or people will think I'm scum. So, I don't know what to do. But I will most likely stick with this vote because it was my original vote.

[zwetschenwasser]

Ectomancer: Town. Posts good cases that make sense and sticks with them until proven 100% wrong.

BeyondBirthday: A Little Less Town. Provides good justification for his votes, but seems a little too enthusiastic to jump on Zero (while posting a disclaimer that he's not eager to vote on Zero)

Zero: Slight Scum. He's just reiterating pointless rubbish and pretending he asked me a question. Active lurking.

So,

Unvote; Vote: Zero

[Zer0ph34r]

I did ask you a freaking question and you're just voting for me because you don't like me, not because you think I'm scum.

[springlullaby]

@ Ectomancer: I see now. I was thrown off by you saying 'I think you missed etc.', kinda unusual to see people interpreting other people to such a degree.

I'm still not liking JereIC, has actually contributed nothing now that the game is under way bar from a vague question about what I think of Zero. I'm not liking Beyond_Birthday either, I think his post sounds very self-conscientious. I'm kind ambivalent concerning Zero, could be awkward town or awkward scum at this point.

So Zero, what do you think of the game so far?

[springlullaby]

*conscious

[PerArdua]

My apologies to all for not keeping up with this after I returned from my trip. Monday morning at 4:30 am my girlfriend's house was rather bored with its look and decided for a new one. It caught fire, I had to move my girlfriend into my house for the time being and I have not really had time for mafia. With all the subsequent issues we still have to work out I'm afraid I can no longer commit to this game. Thus I am requesting replacement and hope one can be found quickly so that my situation doesn't slow down the game.

Good luck all!

[JereIC]

I'm sorry to hear that, PerArdua.

My top suspects right now are Zero and spring. As other people have mentioned, Zero hasn't contributed much but posted to appear like he was. His insistence that his question may be a distraction tactic too - let's talk about what there is to talk about, not who's scum or not.

Spring really hasn't contributed much either. I'm beginning to think that she was trying to speedlynch Ectomancer with her "random" vote, and originally thought up the whole "speedlynches are good for town" argument to try to explain that. When the bandwagon swung around to her, she used it instead to try to knock us off-topic. On the other hand, she's right about Beyond_Birthday's posts - their tone is self-conscious, like he's constantly evaluating his own behavior.

By my counting, this is the fifth vote on Zero. I think he's scum, and I think we're going to be able to use the fact that he's scum to implicate other players.

Vote: Zer0ph34r

[Zachrulez]

Beyond, you think I planned Spring to be suspicious? How would I do that? My first post was a vote for him and then he was thought of as suspicious.

Good point. I will give you this. That argument was a stretch on his part.

And as for the question thing, it wasn't directed towards anyone specific, just ANYONE. I would like to know what info we could've gone on at the time I posted it to lynch someone.

See my case. It explained some of the things we had/have to go on.

Jeez, I always come off as suspicious. I'm not going to just change my vote because someone tells me to, because then they'll think I'm scum and I can't stick with this vote or people will think I'm scum. So, I don't know what to do. But I will most likely stick with this vote because it was my original vote.

You should be more worried about whether your vote is a good one or not rather than what changing/leaving it will have us thinking. I'm bothered by the fact that you're more concerned about the latter.

Also noticing that my vote came on post 126 and was only the 2nd vote (correct me if I'm wrong.) By post 138, Zero is up to 5 votes. Was my case really that good?

[Zer0ph34r]

Alright, two things;

1: I will consider changing my vote since people obviously have a problem with me casting a random vote.

2: Everyone keeps saying that I just keep posting useless info as a way to look like I am being helpful. I'm not! I just find it odd that NO ONE has yet to answer my damn question, they just keep saying that I'm posting useless info, and maybe it is, but why can't ANYONE answer it?! 1 Person just answer and it will be done with!

[Ectomancer]

I've answered your question. Stop pretending as though I haven't. In fact, I spent my first few posts explaining why I was not in the random phase this game, ever.
My impression is that you just don't have the desire to do any work. I was very serious when I told you to read the first 2-3 pages of several games if you really want to know how to derive a conversation from very little.

Yeah, I'm so cuddly

Listen, I know you have to work your mind a bit, and yes early on things are going to be obvious stretches of some kind, but believe me, there are things you can comment on. You've got 5 pages right now. It only took me 1 post from another player to find something to talk about.
I really don't know how to help you except to tell you to read the first 2-3 pages of every game to see how each one got out of the random stage. That will give you an idea on how to derive information from this one.

[Zer0ph34r]

Yeah, because there's so much work to do right now. SOoOoOoOoOo much to go on. [That's sarcasm.]

[Ectomancer]

Get replaced then. Regardless of your alignment, you aren't helping your side at all right now.

[springlullaby]

This is looking so bad, I kind of have difficulty believing in it.

Zero, no opinion on anyone at all?

[springlullaby]

I'm sorry to hear that, PerArdua.

My top suspects right now are Zero and spring. As other people have mentioned, Zero hasn't contributed much but posted to appear like he was. His insistence that his question may be a distraction tactic too - let's talk about what there is to talk about, not who's scum or not.

Spring really hasn't contributed much either.

I'm beginning to think that she was trying to speedlynch Ectomancer with her "random" vote, and originally thought up the whole "speedlynches are good for town" argument to try to explain that. When the bandwagon swung around to her, she used it instead to try to knock us off-topic. On the other hand, she's right about Beyond_Birthday's posts - their tone is self-conscious, like he's constantly evaluating his own behavior.

By my counting, this is the fifth vote on Zero. I think he's scum, and I think we're going to be able to use the fact that he's scum to implicate other players.

Vote: Zer0ph34r

BTW, part in bold is a really crappy argument.

[zwetschenwasser]

Maybe I could answer your question if you reasked it... Also, I'm voting for you because you're acting antitown, not because I don't like you.

[Zer0ph34r]

I have asked and re-asked it many times. WHAT INFO CAN WE GO ON TO LYNCH SOMEONE [at the time].

Ecto, I will not get replaced because all mafia games are like this, I just always have to say the same exact thing and people find me scummy or suspicious or whatever for it.

And I do have opinions of people, Sipylus, just no real reason to lynch anyone.

[Pablo Molinero]

How the hell did you get through your first games here, then?

[Beyond_Birthday]

Beyond, you think I planned Spring to be suspicious? How would I do that?

First: It is a stretch. I suppose I have failed to explain my way of posting in this game.

In all of my post, you get my full thought process up that point. This is a result of not using any notes at all. Additionally, it is easier to follow up on previous thoughts by being able to look at exactly what I thought at point X. (Versus a page full of notes, and using time tables, whatever.)

As for the stretch: It is a note on my exceptionally complex formula to come up with your percent of being scum. These numbers, for everyone, is always unusually HIGH. The reason for this is because I take every possible motivation and scale it, posting the more interesting ones for later reference. If a series of "stretches" forms a pattern, it is worth noting. If it is not followed by a matching occurrence (ie, scum/town flip, or another stretch theory that matches the same MO or works with it to increase probability) it works together to generate a case.

As for my vote: I see no issue in voting people. While, yes, I would be okay with a Zero lynched, I am more concerned with his reaction under pressure. (Saying a vote is a pressure vote instantly nullifies the pressure. In mind of the accused, pressure vote=/=intent to lynch and thus loses pressure.)

I will return to you later.

I'm not liking Beyond_Birthday either, I think his post sounds very self-conscientious.

I don't notice it, but upon reread, you may have a point. I accept this as legitimate criticism.

Back to Zer0 now:

Alright, two things;

1: I will consider changing my vote since people obviously have a problem with me casting a random vote.

2: Everyone keeps saying that I just keep posting useless info as a way to look like I am being helpful. I'm not! I just find it odd that NO ONE has yet to answer my damn question, they just keep saying that I'm posting useless info, and maybe it is, but why can't ANYONE answer it?! 1 Person just answer and it will be done with!

This is called wasting my time. Repeat the damn question. I am not going to go look for it, and if what Ecto said is true (next post), then your entire point two is null. And as for the random vote, let me explain this to you:
The townie's (town aligned's) job is NOT to look protown or not look scummy or avoid making controversial arguments. The town's job is to be USEFUL. To HELP in finding scum. Having everyone look for this ghost question and to post generic, unrelated, or otherwise pointless posts. THIS is the primary reason people might vote you. (Though, other reasons have been given.)

I have asked and re-asked it many times. WHAT INFO CAN WE GO ON TO LYNCH SOMEONE [at the time].

Ecto, I will not get replaced because all mafia games are like this, I just always have to say the same exact thing and people find me scummy or suspicious or whatever for it.

And I do have opinions of people, Sipylus, just no real reason to lynch anyone.

We, at that point, do not lynch people for being scummy. You basically vote people for being stupid. (ie, lacking logic.) When someone votes for person A (the stupid) with crappy reasoning/no reasoning, someone will attack this person B. With the discussion of person A and Person B, either:

Someone will look scummy by going out of their way to protect person A or B.

Someone else will look scummy.

Sides are formed and person A or B is lynched, giving info for day 2, or etc.

Your posts at that point seem to avoid this trend, which is a scummy (albeit, weak supported to prove) tactic. (Avoiding pulling to a side/avoiding to attack or defend a player/other similar basis.) On day 1, however, this looks very scummy because there are no revealed/confirmed alignments, which prevents us, the town, from making stronger and more definite arguments. (Note, if players play poorly or just happen to follow the wrong guy, then day 2 could be a mislynch. Since no mafia game (I should think) would end on day 3, however, the odds of lynching scum are high. Additionally, the same tactics used on day 1 apply, just with more to go on.

How the hell did you get through your first games here, then?

They do not filter out bad player, Pablo. They just instruct, which may or may not be ignored by the amateurs.