Mini 730 - Hard Nights in the City - OVER!

[SpyreX]

Star Lynch: The Wrath of Votecount:

Gerantim (1): don_johnson
don_johnson (1): Gerantim

Deadline: Thursday, January 29th, 10:30 PM PST.

[Juls]

Just got home....will try to have something up soonish.

[Danchaofan]

unfortunately, i don't think choosing his target is a good idea yet. if i had to choose now, i'd say me or himself. right now, i'd rather lynch him. until he starts contributing to the scum hunt and stops avoiding logical protown discussion i see no reason to believe his claim. also, mega's predicament implies the existence of a mafia roleblocker which could block ger, or serve as a convenient excuse for ger if he is lying.

Why are you quick to assume a scum roleblocker? This might be the case if we are 2/1/9 but if we're 3/1/8 I think a town rb is more fair.

[don_johnson]

deadline is thursday. i hate to beat the drum here, but i think a mass claim would help us figure out whose lying.

[Juls]

My opinion about Megatheory has changed. I kinda had a lightbulb moment while reading some of his posts and I think some things make sense to me. I would rather not share unless someone other than don_johnson really insists on it because I think it could be detrimental to town (especially given our current situation).

Now, I am still completely in favor of a don_johnson lynch. He is by far the most scummy.

deadline is thursday. i hate to beat the drum here, but i think a mass claim would help us figure out whose lying.

Don't ANYONE do that...I will try to get a post up about why I think don is most scum soon but wanted to post this in case anyone listens to him!

[Juls]

And just one more comment before I drudge through all this....

93 posts don? really?!?! Thats almost 1/5 of the total posts (including the mod!)

[don_johnson]

And just one more comment before I drudge through all this....

93 posts don? really?!?! Thats almost 1/5 of the total posts (including the mod!)

thank you. i like to contribute. look at that: 94!!

[Megatheory]

nameless lynched himself. don_johnson has all of one vote, it took seven to lynch. not only did nameless lynch himself, he did it instead of claiming a role, which if looked up in the mafiawiki is described as a possible "gamebreaker", that role being nurse. nameless self vote was quite possibly the single most anti-town action taken by a player on day 1. no wonder he got lynched.

Um, you jumped all over him when he implied that he wouldn't self vote like he promised he would. Besides, why are you heaping dirt on a dead townie?

sorry, not trying to heap dirt on the poor bastard. i don't remember "jumping all over him". i think that might have been you.

I would prefer a lynch over a no lynch, even if it is Nameless. We need to know some stuff in order to have a direction D2. If you turn up as town I will take a very thorough look at the others on your wagon.

i agree. not to argue, but nameless promised to self hammer.

if he doesn't then he is scum.

that is pretty good information going into day 2, and town will only lose townies to nightkills instead of having an extra mislynch.

You didn't jump all over him, but you did expect him to self vote after he promised to. It makes no sense to expect him to do something and then call it the most anti-town action in the game.

knowing that if nameless didn't self hammer, he would be outing himself as scum, why on earth did juls change her vote?

This is something you and I believed, but I don't remember Juls expressing this opinion. You are putting our words in her mouth.

nosirree bob. i had this conversation with juls. she may not have felt the same way, but i explained this line of reasoning directly to her.

So, really, you're just imposing your will on her. She saw what you wrote, but that doesn't mean she believed in it, and if she didn't believe in it, she didn't have to act on it.

i am mistaken. ip does not confirm mega. mega's posts seemed very town to me on day 1, but i could be skewed because we shared the point of view that nameless was scummy. i am not trying to spread misinformation. i would appreciate it if we could converse a little less argumentatively here on day 2. i am trying to help. my statement was pure speculation. juls, you are now calling for a lynch of on of two people. what was so scummy about mega from day 1?

You only thought I was town for about 10% of the day. The rest of the time, you accused me of committing a mountain of scumtells. You only decided that I was town when I helped you get what you wanted (a Namless lynch). So what makes you so sure that I'm town?

nothing really. it is not odd in the least for someones suspicions to shift during the course of this game. sometimes players can have revelations about other players and shift their opinions quickly. it wasn't the fact that you jumped the wagfon with me that made me think you're town, it was your reasoning behind it. the fact that you were home last night helps a bit. though i wonder why you were clubbed...

I'm concerned that you are buddying with me. You keep supporting and defending me. On the other hand, you're defending me with what looks like solid logic. I keep coming up with reasons to suspect you, but nothing really sticks and overall, I can't build any kind of case or call you scum and actually believe it. I think you are town. If you are actually scum, you're good at using safe language because every theory I come up with is counteracted by the wording you use.

also the wifomic nature of your question helps to clear him. my bottom line: are you going to clear him for playing dumb? i have won as scum by playing dumb. its one of the easiest ways to skate through to endgame.

I get your point, but which is more likely: ger is playing dumb, or he really made a mistake regarding his role? In my experience, townies do make these kinds of mistakes. Do you have any reason to believe that he is playing dumb outside of this one mistake?

his play is terrible. i outlined the few other reasons i have. his post that significantly reduces my contribution to day 1 to "nothing of substance" and "more wasting time on the doc" just doesn't sit right. you can write it off as my ego, but i am tempted to do a pbpa of that post and point out everything he decided to glaze over. also, his denial of evidence is scummy. refute evidence. don't deny that it is applicable when it clearly is. a definition

straight from the mafiawiki

is not something that should be dismissed with a simple wave of the hand. has anyone in this game been in a game with a JOAT? if so, how many abilities did they have?

Do your PBPA. We need to lynch correctly today, so we need as much information on the table as we can get.

i am also not sure what to think of mega's "clubbing"? it may be an attempt to smear IP. IP admitted to going to mega's house. why would he admit that if there was some sort of foul play? also, what kind of role goes around clubbing people anyhow?

The only role I can think of that would club people is a roleblocker. If penguin is a roleblocker, he could club his target and claim that he tracked them going nowhere. But there's no way to prove that, so, really, we're back to square one: we have to decide to lynch him or not based on his merrits.

Or we can wait and see what his result is tomorrow.

TO ALL: if we are in a possible lylo, how do we feel about a mass claim? if we choose to do it, how would we go about doing it?

I don't like a massclaim with 9 living players. Too much wiggle room for scum. Plus, a massclaim would make things a hell of a lot easier for penguin.

@Everyone- I understand Lylo to mean you must lynch scum or lose the game that day? I think that we'd only be in that state tomorrow, and that's IF we cant catch scum today. What am I missing?

In a typical mini, you have three or four scum. 9 players - 1 lynch - 2 kills = 6 remaining. At that point, scum control the lynch.

That's a

horrible

breadcrumb, bro :p

But, even though, maybe even

because

, you flubbed your role, your claim makes 1000X more sense now, so I believe ya.

That post wasn't really a breadcrumb at all because it came after ger claimed and

in twilight

. It makes perfect sense for scum to have a plan of action by the time the day is over. His "breadcrumb" proves absolutely nothing. Why does his mistake make his claim more believable anyway?

also, i know he says he wanted to be honest, but why admit to being a "one shot vig" in the first place? it sets up the scenario for the explanation of a nk later in the game. this is a huge liability for town.

honestly, i don't believe him at all.

why mention the vig role, well i have always been taught to be truthful as town, don't lie. if i hadn't mentioned the vig and then later killed someone, how would i have explained that?

I didn't catch this before. It's pretty bizzarre to expect a townie to lie.

ger conveniently clears himself and the other tracker. however, later in the game he could easily make the case that he only knew IP was out. this still leaves IP in the hotseat for a mislynch. yeah, i'm reaching a bit, but its plausible. making others look town can easily help any one of us look more town. like i said, i'd like others input. noone seems to be sure of anything. i guess i am just believing IP's "dumb" act more than ger's, and due to the fact that neither one of them was targeted in any way makes me think at least one is lying.

i have not cleared penguin at all. all my result shows is that no one came to penguins house, penguin can still be doc, SK or mafia. if you are thinking me an penguin are paired because i have cleared him, then you are making assumptions based on very foolish thinking.
i hope you go back now and rexamin your thinking knowing that i have not cleared penguin at all

That's not what you claimed at first:

so was kinda weirded out and realised the blunder when i got told by mod i was a watcher and not tracker. my plan was, thinking i was a tracker, track penguin, see where he went and that would confirm him one way or the other.
all i got was that penguin's house was empty.

Can you describe what your watcher power is supposed to do?

MTs wording seemed to be pretty clear that "

Either

he is scum and dropped a case that he saw wasn't working,

or

he is town and caught a scum, but became discouraged too soon. Unless you can suggest an alternative scenario with evidence, then the best play is to lynch one of you." i.e. one possibility is NL is scum and don is town, the other is that NL is town and don is scum. There are no other possibilities, unless you search the thread and come up with evidence. He neglects the possibility of 2 scum parties, 2 towns, partners busing, etc. Furthermore, he uses burden of proof to further suggest that none of these other possibilities are possible.

You keep harping on the specific wording of this one point, but you aren't looking at the whole situation. I posted that don or Namless should be lynched, then Namless comes along and heaps dirt on me but doesn't address the reasoning in what I posted. At that time, I thought it was highly likely that he was scum, and when he posted what he did, I thought he was just ensuring his survival and limiting his liability by protecting don. I posted reasons to believe that lynching one of them was the best play, and Namless suggested that it was equally likely that they were both townies but he didn't provide any reasoning behind it other than that it was a possibility. So, thinkin that he was scum, I insisted that he provide some kind of evidence that the two of them were townies.

(we're talking about nameless right =P) Let's assume two town are seriously debating. And both are under close scrutiny for lynch. Mafia can subtly put forth a statement that one or the other has to be scum. Come day 2 and one of the lynchee flipped town. The mafia pick up the other wagon (which had to have evidence if both were in consideration for lynch) and continues under the premise that one of the two had to be scum. Thus, the mafia ensures two mislynches. Meanwhile someone comes along and says, "hey, what if these two guys are just two townies" Your line, puts burden of proof to find evidence that BOTH are town. There may not be evidence, both townies probably had scummy actions due to them being lynch candidates, but, the possibility is discredited due to lack of "evidence".

You didn't quote the part of my post that pretty much destroys your assertion, so I'll tell you again: Scum gain absolutely, positively nothing by doing what you suggest. If the scum leads the lynch on one, they still have to push for the other. There's no subtlety in it either. You're asserting that I wrecklessly setup up two misslynches but did absolutely nothing to protect myself. If you're going to insist that I can distance myself from those lynches, I've got news for you:

I will never distance myself from the Namless lynch or a don lynch if it happens

.

Can you go back and find where NL said it was "equally" likely that they are both town. I don't think NL ever protected don. NL's posts seem fairly confident that don is scum but concedes the possibility that both NL and don are town.

You've got me there. I can't find anything like that. When I wrote that part you quoted, I just wrote my thoughts from memory.

I'd really,

really

hear why Juls thinks don is so suspicious because I can't find

anything

on him at this point.

[Juls]

Note post #s refer to HIS post #s in isolation, not the global post numbers.

don_johnson
=============================
Scummy Thing #1:
=============================
We all recall the unbearable theory discussion between Megatheory and don_johnson. But for the large portion of the conversation, neither voted the other. I thought maybe they just disagreed on the merits of self voting or the argument was staged by both of them. But on re-read, I noticed after Plum made her post (the first big shift from the theory discussion) that don felt inclined to vote Megatheory. I think don's motivation in that argument was to make Megatheory out to be scum. If you read the conversation, don prods MT a lot trying to get him to react. Strong reactions tend toward scum. On top of that, his vote would have been second on the list so he wouldn't be accused of starting the wagon and he also saw it as an opportunity to buddy Plum (since she voted for MT). I think this statement proves that he had these ideas in mind at the very least subconsciously:

if mega is lynched he can point to others on the wagon, with me he would be the first real player making the case against me and therefore bear more of the responsibility if i am lynched.

=============================
Scummy Thing #2:
=============================

juls: i believe it is a well earned fos and would be happy to say that if one of us flips scum, town should definitely lynch the other before lylo(if the situation arises). i do understand the inherent risk of the self vote and am more than happy to live(or die) with the consequences. wifomic? yes. but only until my death.

I mentioned this at the time and it still bothers me. I think he knows MT to be town and put this as a back-up plan. He would know that MT would flip town and therefore, in his mind, this statement would clear him as town. Further, if HE flipped scum, it would put enough doubt in our heads that if MT made it to lylo we would lynch him.

=============================
Scummy Thing #3:
=============================
Leading the doctor. I will let his quotes speak for themselves:

if we have a doc, and we lynch scum, then doc doesn't have to protect him. let the mafia confirm him or leave him be.

i am not saying to direct the doc, but agreeing on some guidelines that would help us in confirming our "tracker" would be helpful to town. if all tracker can do is confirm vanilla townies then we needn't waste protection on him.

what's wrong with partially directing the doc? this is a team game.

ultimately, if we have a doctor they are always free to make up their own mind, but in the case of ip, i strongly suggest not wasting the doc's ability on them if, and only if, we lynch scum today.

tracker results, as many have now pointed out, have the distinct possibility of outing a town power role, so protecting said player would be silly in any case, but if we lynch scum today, protecting them is unecessary.

i am saying that the doctors power would be wasted protecting ip, if we lynch scum today. i am speaking in terms of a town strategy, not trying to tell the doctor what to do.

Note: There is more leading in post #39 if you wish to view it for yourself, I didn't want to quote it all.

also, what if our "doctor" isn't so bright and needs help? do you suggest we stop talking strategy altogether?

also, no one has explained why using the doctor to towns advantage is bad.

you say you are so smart, but noone here claims to see the benefit of discussing the doctors(if we have one) role in town strategy.

well if they are so smart then why would you even care if i was leading the doctor? if town is so smart then they would know better. anyhow, the point is moot. i never attempted to lead the doctor, i only sought town's help in developing a strategy to deal with ip.

=============================
Scummy Thing #4:
=============================
Doubting both claimed town power roles. Granted IP is fishier than tuna but he also doubts geraintm in post #52. I am leaning toward believing both of them at this point given that we have all but confirmed either two mafia families or a mafia family and a serial killer. Obviously town would have to have some power roles to counter that. Nameless was a Nurse but that is the only town power role that has flipped. So if we have 3 anti-town roles left it would be logical to think that town would at least have 2, possibly 3 more power roles. But back to don. His excuse for not believing geraintm is weak. His claim that JoaT would have more than 2 based on the word "several" is beyond weak. He further tries to push this argument in post 56, post 57, and he revisits this argument in D2.

And a quote for emphasis...he wanted flavor to determine the EXACT details of the information. This benefits scum more than town:

penguin was allowed to paraphrase. so are you. i suggest you both pm the mod. paraphrase your role pm's and send them to spyrex and let him decide if you are allowed to post. BOTH OF YOU SHOULD DO THIS. why would we have a "tracker" and a "jack of all trades"? reasonable, yes, but until i see some flavour i don't know who i can believe. why do you believe ip?

=============================
Scummy Thing #5
=============================
I don't like that MT suggested a self vig from geraintm but I think that this is obviously an opportunity for scum to agree.

mega's last few posts have been nothing but town to me. their reasoning is solid, and being the first to suggest the self vig gives them townie brownies from me.

Of course he wants geraintm to self vig! That's one less townie he has to pick off. (Dont do it geraintm!). This is not something I see as particularly scummy but annoying is that he admonishes geraintm for not night viging him after that. Oh really? geraintm? The one you don't think is a JoaT.

=============================
Scummy Thing #6
=============================
On day 1 he says...

if geraintm and atronach put their votes on nameless

he has promised to self hammer. whether or not he does would be quite a telling scenario.

so, vote your conscience. a "no lynch" uncovering one scum is better than lynching a townie.

i agree. not to argue, but nameless promised to self hammer. if he doesn't then he is scum.

On day 2 he says...

not only did nameless lynch himself, he did it instead of claiming a role, which if looked up in the mafiawiki is described as a possible "gamebreaker", that role being nurse. nameless self vote was quite possibly the single most anti-town action taken by a player on day 1.

So basically nameless was damned if he did, damned if he didn't.


=============================
Scummy Thing #7
=============================
Please read post #72. In it he restates the points that just because nameless is town doesn't automagically make him scum. The fact that he brings this up in twighlight (and with everything else he has done) makes me see that he is thinking up defenses at all times. Scum tend to think up defenses before they are attacked, not townies.


=============================
Scummy Thing #8
=============================
Requesting a mass claim when we are no where near ready for that. If we lynch scum today we are still in the game. We are not truly in lylo until D3 in my opinion especially with a vig kill.


=============================

Now, I have made my case against don and my vote will stay on him. We ARE two days from deadline so please vote as soon as possible in case last minute craziness occurs. Further, I want to note that don has already claimed vanilla so if he claims anything else he should be lynched on grounds of lieing alone.

Vote: don_johnson

=============================

Some of you have expressed suspicions of me moving my vote. I am sorry but 13 hours before deadline putting someone at L-1 is not too early IMO. I did not hammer. I wasn't sure if I would have access that day as I have 3 classes and work ( I can't access Mafiascum at work). It turns out I did have access that day but it is never guaranteed. I made a bad decision, I wish I had went with my gut. If you read my posts in isolation you will see that I wasn't buying the nameless wagon. I felt though that if we learned nameless's alignment it would give us some insight into D2.

[Juls]

Damnit! I meant to include one more thing:

Happy Birthday Mod!

[Atronach]

I didn't notice that until you said something Juls. Happy Birthday Spyrex.

I saw there was very little activity today. I, myself, was indisposed for most of the day. Big snow storm here. Point is, deadline is fast approaching. We need to decide on a lynch now, or we risk a no-lynch. We also need to decide on directing geraintm's vig shot. However, I want to hear Don's defense against your case before I vote anyone.

[geraintm]

don, i don't want mega to claim, scum alredy know too much about who isn't the doc to improve their chances of getting him/her.

i take back the bit about the me saying cleared myself, i misremebred, sorry.

and mega's post on the several, lets just say then we really, really disagree on the intpretation of what you said

also, WHY DON"T YOU VIG ME? IT WOULD AT LEAST AVOID A MISLYNCH AND REMOVE ME FROM THE ACTUAL LYLO SCENARIO? maybe its because you can't...

also, WHY DON"T YOU VIG ME? IT WOULD AT LEAST AVOID A MISLYNCH AND REMOVE ME FROM THE ACTUAL LYLO SCENARIO? maybe its because you can't...

Having him choose his own target completely defeats the purpose of having town direct the kill.

What I'd like from you, Don, at this point is clarification. Is gera still your vote for the day or do you want him to use his power? And if so, what target are you nominating?

unfortunately, i don't think choosing his target is a good idea yet.

just pointing out those two lines

i would like people to discuss the pros and cons of a mass claim.

stop doing this. cause later on you are going to say something like you never wanted peopel to mass claim.
no wait, in 503 you actually come out with it being a good idea...
i'll go on record, mass claiming has to be bad, pushing it don makes you look more and more untown

That's a

horrible

breadcrumb, bro :p

But, even though, maybe even

because

, you flubbed your role, your claim makes 1000X more sense now, so I believe ya.

That post wasn't really a breadcrumb at all because it came after ger claimed and

in twilight

. It makes perfect sense for scum to have a plan of action by the time the day is over. His "breadcrumb" proves absolutely nothing. Why does his mistake make his claim more believable anyway?

sorry, it was the first time i've really tried doing something like that, sorry if i did it poorly

Can you describe what your watcher power is supposed to do?

i was told by mod that for one night of the game, i can choose to go visit someone's house and i see everyone who visits it. i got this confused with tracker, where i would have gone to penguin's house and seen where he had gone.

post 508, basically agree with all of this.

[geraintm]

Forgot, the sums to do with how quickly we are going to get to lynch or lose are speeded up because we are going to get someone mod killed tonight because chaos hasn't posted all day.

and i can't see anything beond don to lynch at the moment. if anyone wants to push someone else as a good target, they better do it soon so we can discuss it

[Juls]

Good point, I had forgot that ChaosOmega was goin to get modkilled. That could be very unfortunate or good depending on his alignment. That being said, I thnk we have to lynch today because the numbers aren't any prettier:

Assuming 2-Mafia, 1-SK, 6-Townies

Scenario 1: lynch scum

Night Kills: 2 townies die
Modkills: ChaosOmega
D3:
2 scum types, 3 town types (if CO is town)
1 scum type, 4 town types (if CO is scum)

Scenario 2: lynch scum

Night Kills: 1 townie dies, 1 scum type dies
Modkills: ChaosOmega
D3:
1 scum type, 4 -townies (if CO is town)
Note: This scenario is not possible if CO is scum

Scenario 3: no lynch

Night Kills 2 townies die
Modkills: ChaosOmega
D3:
3 scum types, 3 townies (if CO is town)
2 scum types, 4 townies (if CO is scum)

Scenario 4: no lynch

Night Kills: 1 scum, 1 town
Modkills: ChaosOmega
D3:
2 scum types, 4 townies (if CO is town)
1 scum type, 5 townies (if CO is scum)

Scenario 5: lynch townie

Night Kills: 2 townies
Modkills: ChaosOmega
D3:
3 scum types, 2 townies (if CO is town) - Game Over
2 scum types, 3 townies (if CO is scum)

Scenario 6: lynch townie

Night Kills: 1 scum, 1 townie
Modkills: ChaosOmega
D3:
2 scum types, 3 townies (if CO is town)
1 scum types ,4 townies (if CO is scum)

Note: I realize there are additional situations with a vig kill but that list would grow too large. These are the most general scenarios.

The only way the game is guaranteed to be over is if we lynch town, two townies are killed at night, and CO flips town. This list was done quickly because I have to go study so I apologize if I missed something.

[don_johnson]

don_johnson
=============================
Scummy Thing #1:
=============================
We all recall the unbearable theory discussion between Megatheory and don_johnson. But for the large portion of the conversation, neither voted the other. I thought maybe they just disagreed on the merits of self voting or the argument was staged by both of them. But on re-read, I noticed after Plum made her post (the first big shift from the theory discussion) that don felt inclined to vote Megatheory. I think don's motivation in that argument was to make Megatheory out to be scum. If you read the conversation, don prods MT a lot trying to get him to react. Strong reactions tend toward scum. On top of that, his vote would have been second on the list so he wouldn't be accused of starting the wagon and he also saw it as an opportunity to buddy Plum (since she voted for MT). I think this statement proves that he had these ideas in mind at the very least subconsciously:

if mega is lynched he can point to others on the wagon, with me he would be the first real player making the case against me and therefore bear more of the responsibility if i am lynched.

honestly. no response to this. it is opinion.

=============================
Scummy Thing #2:
=============================

juls: i believe it is a well earned fos and would be happy to say that if one of us flips scum, town should definitely lynch the other before lylo(if the situation arises). i do understand the inherent risk of the self vote and am more than happy to live(or die) with the consequences. wifomic? yes. but only until my death.

I mentioned this at the time and it still bothers me. I think he knows MT to be town and put this as a back-up plan. He would know that MT would flip town and therefore, in his mind, this statement would clear him as town.

Further, if HE flipped scum, it would put enough doubt in our heads that if MT made it to lylo we would lynch him

.

this makes no sense. i said not to let either of us get to lylo if one of us flipped scum to prevent such a scenario as the one you describe. what is scummy about trying to prevent that situation?

=============================
Scummy Thing #3:
=============================
Leading the doctor. I will let his quotes speak for themselves:

and you did let my quotes speak for themselves. they are all even toned, well presented ideas. not once do i directly address the doc, nor do i imply that the doc should take any action i am suggesting without town's approval. by the time i got to the end of these quotes i really don't see how you could think i'm scum. but whatever...

=============================
Scummy Thing #4:
=============================
Doubting both claimed town power roles. Granted IP is fishier than tuna but he also doubts geraintm in post #52. I am leaning toward believing both of them at this point given that we have all but confirmed either two mafia families or a mafia family and a serial killer. Obviously town would have to have some power roles to counter that. Nameless was a Nurse but that is the only town power role that has flipped. So if we have 3 anti-town roles left it would be logical to think that town would at least have 2, possibly 3 more power roles. But back to don. His excuse for not believing geraintm is weak. His claim that JoaT would have more than 2 based on the word "several" is beyond weak. He further tries to push this argument in post 56, post 57, and he revisits this argument in D2.

you are completely misunderstanding my suspicion of geraintim. it is not based on the mafiawiki definition(though the definition doesn't help him). my suspicion is based on his response to my presenting evidence for town to examine in determining whether to believe his claim or not. you don't seem to like evidence either...

And a quote for emphasis...he wanted flavor to determine the EXACT details of the information. This benefits scum more than town:

penguin was allowed to paraphrase. so are you. i suggest you both pm the mod. paraphrase your role pm's and send them to spyrex and let him decide if you are allowed to post. BOTH OF YOU SHOULD DO THIS. why would we have a "tracker" and a "jack of all trades"? reasonable, yes, but until i see some flavour i don't know who i can believe. why do you believe ip?

this is arguable. first, i never said EXACT details. i said paraphrase. yes, it could benefit scum, but if it helps us decide who is telling the truth then it would benefit town. i also support a mass claim. so that's just my opinion vs. your opinion. why is it so scummy to suggest things for town to decide on for themselves?

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Scummy Thing #5
=============================
I don't like that MT suggested a self vig from geraintm but I think that this is obviously an opportunity for scum to agree.

mega's last few posts have been nothing but town to me. their reasoning is solid, and being the first to suggest the self vig gives them townie brownies from me.

Of course he wants geraintm to self vig! That's one less townie he has to pick off.

(Dont do it geraintm!).

This is not something I see as particularly scummy but annoying is that he admonishes geraintm for not night viging him after that. Oh really? geraintm? The one you don't think is a JoaT.

see the bolded part of "scummy thing # 5?

that's juls "directing" the "vig".

the only person who can make ger self vig is ger. why are you so worried about me?

=============================
Scummy Thing #6
=============================
On day 1 he says...

if geraintm and atronach put their votes on nameless

he has promised to self hammer. whether or not he does would be quite a telling scenario.

so, vote your conscience. a "no lynch" uncovering one scum is better than lynching a townie.

i agree. not to argue, but nameless promised to self hammer. if he doesn't then he is scum.

On day 2 he says...

not only did nameless lynch himself, he did it instead of claiming a role, which if looked up in the mafiawiki is described as a possible "gamebreaker", that role being nurse. nameless self vote was quite possibly the single most anti-town action taken by a player on day 1.

So basically nameless was damned if he did, damned if he didn't.

not at all. i was under the impression that he had claimed vanilla. had he claimed nurse i would have been lynched in a heartbeat. there would have been no need for him to self hammer. and even if noone switched at deadline, you would have seen don_johnson do everything he could(including self hammer) to prevent a town disaster. wifom, i know, but you are making a case on a GRAND ASSUMPTION that i would not have relented had nameless claimed the role he actually had. my worst case scenario when lynching him was that i was accidentally lynching another vanilla townie. i had no idea he was nurse and he self hammered thirteen hours(or so) before deadline AND THEN CLAIMED. sorry. not my fault.

=============================
Scummy Thing #7
=============================
Please read post #72. In it he restates the points that just because nameless is town doesn't automagically make him scum. The fact that he brings this up in twighlight (and with everything else he has done) makes me see that he is thinking up defenses at all times. Scum tend to think up defenses before they are attacked, not townies.

maybe you should read your own twilight posts. nameless actually said the same thing i did in twilight. is he scum?

=============================
Scummy Thing #8
=============================
Requesting a mass claim when we are no where near ready for that. If we lynch scum today we are still in the game. We are not truly in lylo until D3 in my opinion especially with a vig kill.

how is "requesting a mass claim" scummy? can i force you to do it? it seems as though there is quite a bit of flavor in this game, even though it is a mini-normal, and i honestly think by forcing scum to lie we may be able to catch one. how is that scummy? it is an opinion and it makes sense. do you agree? no. do you have to agree? no. do you have to do what i say? no.

Now, I have made my case against don and my vote will stay on him. We ARE two days from deadline so please vote as soon as possible in case last minute craziness occurs. Further, I want to note that don has already claimed vanilla so if he claims anything else he should be lynched on grounds of lieing alone.

yes. don claimed vanilla. don breadcrumbed vanilla. if you can't see that don is vanilla by now then you

should

lynch him.

Some of you have expressed suspicions of me moving my vote. I am sorry but 13 hours before deadline putting someone at L-1 is not too early IMO. I did not hammer. I wasn't sure if I would have access that day as I have 3 classes and work ( I can't access Mafiascum at work). It turns out I did have access that day but it is never guaranteed. I made a bad decision, I wish I had went with my gut. If you read my posts in isolation you will see that I wasn't buying the nameless wagon. I felt though that if we learned nameless's alignment it would give us some insight into D2.

wow, i love that quote. here's another one i love:

Scum tend to think up defenses before they are attacked, not townies.

my three favorite lynches for day 2:

juls, geraintim, atronach(sorry bro, but two slips does not a townie make.)

[don_johnson]

ebwop: happy birthday mod!

[geraintm]

how is "requesting a mass claim" scummy? can i force you to do it? it seems as though there is quite a bit of flavor in this game, even though it is a mini-normal, and i honestly think by forcing scum to lie we may be able to catch one. how is that scummy? it is an opinion and it makes sense. do you agree? no. do you have to agree? no. do you have to do what i say? no.

i've time for about 30 seconds to write, had to pick this.
scum just go "i'm vanilla" they don't need to lie, we won't catch any of them out.

[Juls]

I am going to bet on town not being stupid enough to believe your last attempt at discrediting me. Yet another weak (scummy) argument. In the two quotes you "love", the first is me answering to the questions that have been posed to me since my last substantial post and that was why I switched my vote. I was ANSWERING a question, not thinking up defenses before I was attacked. There is a huge difference.

and you did let my quotes speak for themselves. they are all even toned, well presented ideas. not once do i directly address the doc, nor do i imply that the doc should take any action i am suggesting without town's approval. by the time i got to the end of these quotes i really don't see how you could think i'm scum. but whatever...

I believe you said somewhere that you are an English major. I find it hard to believe you don't know the difference between leading and directly addressing. You were "leading" by making suggestions. How can you not see that?

see the bolded part of "scummy thing # 5? that's juls "directing" the "vig". the only person who can make ger self vig is ger. why are you so worried about me?

Are you serious? Why am I worried about you? Because you are doing scummy things! My comments doesn't imply that because you told him to do it he is going to do it. My comments are the fact that you took an idea from MT that could be townie (the jury is still out on that one) and you rode it because it benefits you. Further, hell yeah I directed ger not to do self-vig. What motivations would I have to do that as scum? Further, I believe his claim and therefore I don't want him to waste his vig power on trying to prove himself. He just explained his flavor in his most recent post (or the one before?) and it is reasonable.

I am going to make a request and a claim here.

I am a vanilla townie

. If you guys don't lynch Don today, please lynch me...because until I get rid of Don, I will not be able to concentrate on anyone else because I believe him to be scum.

[Atronach]

@Don - What are these "two slips" you are talking about? You haven't responded to my question clarifying the last accusation.

This is becoming very distressing. Here's the deal, I am not going to vote Juls. That said, I go back and forth a lot on whether or not Don is scum. I am unconvinced. Juls, I fear that your obvious antagonism by Don colors some of your perception of him.

Three things:

I would be willing to vote for IP today. He is inactive and it seems he will only write into this game for night actions. The risk of him being mafia with a roleblock or tracker power is a reasonable fear at this point.

We still need to decide on geraintm. Would we rather he not vig anyone tonight?

I would be willing to vote for don_johnson if it avoids a no-lynch.

[Juls]

I don't think we should vote IP. I tend toward believing our claimed town-roles. I think that IP got pissed off because people were calling him scummy and he lost interest in the game.

[don_johnson]

I am going to bet on town not being stupid enough to believe your last attempt at discrediting me. Yet another weak (scummy) argument. In the two quotes you "love", the first is me answering to the questions that have been posed to me since my last substantial post and that was why I switched my vote. I was ANSWERING a question, not thinking up defenses before I was attacked. There is a huge difference.

sounded like a pre formed defense to me.

and you did let my quotes speak for themselves. they are all even toned, well presented ideas. not once do i directly address the doc, nor do i imply that the doc should take any action i am suggesting without town's approval. by the time i got to the end of these quotes i really don't see how you could think i'm scum. but whatever...

I believe you said somewhere that you are an English major. I find it hard to believe you don't know the difference between leading and directly addressing. You were "leading" by making suggestions. How can you not see that?

read the quotes without attaching my name to them and then tell me if they are scummy. they are not.

see the bolded part of "scummy thing # 5? that's juls "directing" the "vig". the only person who can make ger self vig is ger. why are you so worried about me?

Are you serious? Why am I worried about you? Because you are doing scummy things! My comments doesn't imply that because you told him to do it he is going to do it. My comments are the fact that you took an idea from MT that could be townie (the jury is still out on that one) and you rode it because it benefits you.

Further, hell yeah I directed ger not to do self-vig. What motivations would I have to do that as scum?

Further, I believe his claim and therefore I don't want him to waste his vig power on trying to prove himself.

He just explained his flavor in his most recent post (or the one before?) and it is reasonable.

a) he could be your scum partner.

b) you could know he is town and be trying to make yourself look more town. come on, juls, you are making this too easy.

second bolded statement: he hasn't vig'd. why are you and he so positive he will get another chance? same question for atronach.

I am going to make a request and a claim here.

I am a vanilla townie

. If you guys don't lynch Don today, please lynch me...because until I get rid of Don, I will not be able to concentrate on anyone else because I believe him to be scum.

vote: Juls

i don't believe you. i will give Geraintim one more night to prove himself and honor your request.

why can't anyone seem to do some scumhunting today? i feel like everyone is saying, "well, let's lynch don, unless he comes up with a better idea." we are twenty four hours from deadline. vanilla townie juls has asked for either a don lynch, or a juls lynch. so i suggest everyone make their choice and we be done with it. i have had juls pegged as a possible partner with geraintim since her vote switch yesterday. seriously, if you believe the load of crap she calls a case, then by all means, lynch me.

atronach: dan and porkens pointed out "slips" earlier. i am not voting you today. i am not going to waste time building a case, but your assumptino of a "scum" roleblocker and your statement which seemed to show precognizance of what geraintim was going to post are the "slips" of which i speak. if you are town i suggest you honor juls' request. this game needs to move forward, and unfortunately, don is locked in another "its either him or me" struggle. if my alignment is in such question, then i should be lynched as i am serving only to confuse town.

sorry, what was the "question" you asked of me?

[Atronach]

don_johnson wrote:
atronach wrote:
I understand what you are saying, but are we just taking his word that he didn't use his vig attempt?

just pointing it out. your choice of words is suspicious.


I don't understand. What is suspicious about asking if we are just taking his word that he has the powers he has, or will tell the truth about them?

I asked this because I didn't understand where you were coming from, and I still don't. You've clarified that you think I showed some 'precognitve' awareness of what gera was going to say. I wasn't stating what I thought gera would do at all. I was respond to something Juls said in which she laid forth a hypothetical in which I saw a flaw- the flaw being that she would have to trust gera to make her hypothetical work. I was pointing out that we couldn't take geras word for these things.

he hasn't vig'd. why are you and he so positive he will get another chance? same question for atronach.

....Do you mean, because he might get killed by scum tonight? Of course that is a possibility; that is a possibility for all of us. I shouldn't have to put that forth in a statement; that should go without saying. I thought I had made my position pretty clear about gera: we should be lynching him, today, if we think he's scum. If not, we should be proving his role and taking another opportunity to take down scum by directing his kill.

if you are town i suggest you honor juls' request.

Why? That I believe Juls to be town does not ness. mean that she is right. I've stated as much.

[don_johnson]

don_johnson wrote:
atronach wrote:
I understand what you are saying, but are we just taking his word that he didn't use his vig attempt?

just pointing it out. your choice of words is suspicious.


I don't understand. What is suspicious about asking if we are just taking his word that he has the powers he has, or will tell the truth about them?

he never gave "his word". your explanation is reasonable, but it is still suspicious.

he hasn't vig'd. why are you and he so positive he will get another chance? same question for atronach.

....Do you mean, because he might get killed by scum tonight? Of course that is a possibility; that is a possibility for all of us. I shouldn't have to put that forth in a statement; that should go without saying. I thought I had made my position pretty clear about gera: we should be lynching him, today, if we think he's scum. If not, we should be proving his role and taking another opportunity to take down scum by directing his kill.

if it goes without saying then : WHY DIDN"T HE VIG? he has not answered that question adequately. he has no guarantee of being able to use that ability. IT IS A POWERFUL ABILITY. IT SHOULD HAVE BEEN USED. VIG'S GIVEN THE CHANCE TO VIG ON NIGHT ZERO WILL OFTEN TAKE THE SHOT. yes his chances of hitting scum go up when he waits, but his chances of surviving should be going down. ESPECIALLY SINCE HE OPENLY CLAIMED THE ABILITY. a mass claim can help clear this all up(i.e. it would help to know MT's claim and also who "clubbed" him). you assumed a mafia roleblocker(second slip), but if a town roleblocker is out there then a massclaim would help clear it up. it is an acceptable tactic in a themed game, and this games flavor seems to lend itself to the strategy.

if you are town i suggest you honor juls' request.

Why? That I believe Juls to be town does not ness. mean that she is right. I've stated as much.[/quote]

NOONE HERE IS SCUMHUNTING. WE ARE 24 HOURS TO DEADLINE. YOUR PERSISTENCE IN AVOIDING THE TASK AT HAND KEEPS YOU ON MY SCUMLIST.

if you think juls and i are both town, then produce some suspects. seriously, i am getting frustrated with this game. at least juls is willing to take a stand. i am not posting anymore until a couple hours before deadline. i will lynch:

juls
geraintim
atronach

in no specific order as i think they are all scum. that's final. see you later.

[Atronach]

Also, after going back to read for clarification.

atronach: dan and porkens pointed out "slips" earlier. i am not voting you today. i am not going to waste time building a case, but your assumptino of a "scum" roleblocker...

You are not making sense again. If that is a slip, then please explain what you said in Post #498:

also, mega's predicament implies the existence of a mafia roleblocker which could block ger, or serve as a convenient excuse for ger if he is lying.

DCF pointed this out in Post #502, and for some reason made it look like I had said it. What I said about it was in Post #518:

The risk of him being mafia with a roleblock or tracker power is a reasonable fear at this point.

A risk, a reasonable fear; not an assumption.

sorry, what was the

"question"

you asked of me?

This, in bold, is why people are voting you for your behavior. The "question" is at the very beginning of Post #484.

...and your statement which seemed to show precognizance of what geraintim was going to post are the "slips" of which i speak.

Now that I understand what you were trying to say, I will clarify. Juls said in Post #464:

If geraintm did not send in a vig attempt then we can explore the Mafia+SK setup.

.

My response in Post #465:

I understand what you are saying, but are we just taking his word that he didn't use his vig attempt?

Pointing out that we cannot just take geraintm on his word that he did not use his vig attempt last night.

[don_johnson]

If geraintm did not send in a vig attempt then we can explore the Mafia+SK setup.

.

My response in Post #465:

I understand what you are saying, but are we just taking his word that he didn't use his vig attempt?

Pointing out that we cannot just take geraintm on his word that he did not use his vig attempt last night.

he never gave "his word". it shows precognizance. i assumed a mafia roleblocker as well. your statement, however, shows precognizance of what ger would say. how did we know he hand't tried to use it and was going to claim "roleblocked"? your explanation is reasonable. one slip is okay.

two slips does not a townie make.

sorry, but my suspipcion of you stands. if you think dan is twisting this scenario then maybe you should look at him. i am the obvious "to avoid a mislynch" lynch, so i don't see why people are wasting there time trying to build a case which can't be built.

seriously, though, i am becoming frustrated and not having fun. i am not on these forums to add stress to my life. if you want to lynch me, go ahead. i have done nothing to warrant it and the fact that i seem to be everyones best target just goes to show the lack of imagination that pervades through this game.