Mini 720 - SPQR Mafia {Game Over}

[OhGodMyLife]

Vote Count:

5 to lynch

Not Voting: 8 (dahill1, charter, El Destructo, Incognito, Tuberkulos, Erratus Apathos, Glork, Assmaster)

[Assmaster]

Fair enough. I personally reckon 2:1:10 is balanced is balanced with no power and 2:10 is town favoured but open to single good scum, and if they win, they deserve to, but that's my opinion. That said, I your thought is fairly compelling, though. I know my opinion isn't the majority one.

[Assmaster]

2:1:9 sorry

[El Destructo]

"The scum are vengeful-style" as in Vengeful Mafia, as in 1 GF, 1 goon, scum lose if GF dies.
Glork, would you agree that if charter is town, Caesar is in the game? If so, what do you think would happen if we lynched Caesar? Logically, if Charter is town, you're saying lynching Caesar wouldn't end the game - why is the 'imperial threat' not ended with the death of Caesar? This is the part I don't understand. I agree that something feels 'off' about the game possibly ending on day 2, but I can't find a logical argument against it.
The traitor thing is interesting. That would remove almost all associative tells for a fair chunk of the game, though, I'm not sure I'd buy that. Is that even mafia? There's no informed minority... it doesn't really seem likely to me, right now.
The scum being weaker in some other, unknown way might leave the possibility of charter being scum, but I really can't think of anything that seems to fit well. I also like the breadcrumb, amongst other things.

I felt this game was likely to be low-power in general; I thought it'd be likely to have had a power role claim by now if it was power-heavy. Also, perhaps this is silly, but I felt the senate being based around debate and rhetoric would have leaned towards a vanilla-style game, thematically. I don't really understand why that'd bother you.

Glork, how much do you know about the theme?

Assmaster: My initial impression of 2:10 was that it favoured the town. Now, I'm really not as sure; at minimum, it seems to have a reputation for being difficult for the town to win in practice. I think OGML would have to think long and hard before running a setup like that. I suppose it gets tangential, but I think

generally

site-wide, the opinion of mods and reviewers is similar to what I posted... I don't know if OGML has a particular viewpoint.

I'm more than willing to re-examine any of this if there's something I'd missed, I thought 2:10 was near-universally viewed as kinda-balanced-favouring-scum.

Elmo

[Assmaster]

I'm more than willing to re-examine any of this if there's something I'd missed, I thought 2:10 was near-universally viewed as kinda-balanced-favouring-scum.

Which is why we do newbie games that are frequently 2:7?

[Glork]

I think that Casesar is in the game regardless of whether Charter is lying or telling the truth. We are seeking to kill Caesar, so it makes sense to me that he would be a scumbag we have to kill. I've had that impression since the beginning of the game, though I couldn't be arsed to look more at the game's flavor until today.


As far as the flavor of Casear's death goes, I'm a bit surprised at you, Elmo. I am very explicitly stating that lynching Caesar probably won't end the game. But it as NOTHING to do with flavor. It has to do with the BALANCE of having the town win if CharterTown manages to make ONE successful investigation. That would be hideously unbalanced, IMO, and I would put much more weight on "the mod made some concessions on flavor" than "the mod made a really terrible setup." What about you?


Seriously, something does not add up with Elmo/Des at all. I like my

Vote: El Destructo

from yesterday.

[Glork]

In fact, Elmo, if you're so glued to flavor, how would you explain the flavor of nightkills?

[dahill1]

you mean tuberkulos?
mainly because he put a vote on assmaster with no reasoning or explanation at all.

Yeah, sorry. What was your intent in posting what you did in Mafia Discussion?

mainly because everyone else was arguing the opposite point and i wanted to show the other point of view. and i as EA said i just wanted to own animorph, basically. if you look through my games, you'll see that i don't actually follow that practice or even necessarily agree with it.

as for the arguing over the balance of this game, we'd have to know what OGML was thinking which we can never truly achieve. i agree with glork that lynching casear will most likely not end the game just because of how easily town could win that game.

[charter]

The reason I don't like it is because you are immediately setting yourself up for failure. Flawed cop is an extremely common scum claim, and a good one, allowing you to slide into the role of cop, but also excusing yourself from failures when the people you pass judgement on come up the opposite. At this point in the game, your results are essentially meaningless. Aside from that, you imply that your role was somewhat muddy in it's meaning, and given the simplicity of the role PMs that the townies got, all this inclusion of Ceasers and Brutus's is an unecessary complication to what was previously a straightfoward game. I also dubious that, if a mod was going to include a single power role in a game, he wouldn't make it something as swingy and poor as your described role.

I realise these are points you can't really defend yourself against, cause if you have the role, you have it, but it's why I don't think it's a very good claim.

Was the complete ignorance of the fact Charter could be Harry/Caeser intentional there Elmo?

I feel like you went from extremely skeptical to extremely accepting about there being "Caesars and Brutus's" with very little in between. What caused this revelation?

I'm more than willing to re-examine any of this if there's something I'd missed, I thought 2:10 was near-universally viewed as kinda-balanced-favouring-scum.

Which is why we do newbie games that are frequently 2:7?

Mathematically 2:7 is easier to win for town than 2:10 I believe.

I think that Casesar is in the game regardless of whether Charter is lying or telling the truth. We are seeking to kill Caesar, so it makes sense to me that he would be a scumbag we have to kill. I've had that impression since the beginning of the game, though I couldn't be arsed to look more at the game's flavor until today.

How could you possibly have thought that?

[Glork]

Sample role PM

:

You are a

conspirator

in the plot to kill Julius Caesar.

You win when the imperial threat to the republic is ended.

Seriously. IT DOESN'T TAKE A FUCKING ROCKET SCIENTIST, PEOPLE.

[charter]

Oh. I didn't get one of those so I never really looked at it. Chill.

[El Destructo]

I'm more than willing to re-examine any of this if there's something I'd missed, I thought 2:10 was near-universally viewed as kinda-balanced-favouring-scum.

Which is why we do newbie games that are frequently 2:7?

There's more to work with in newbies games, like predictable power role claims, etc.

I don't think we'd win if Caesar is lynched. Mostly for balance, but flavour wise, if I remember my Shakespeare from school, Marc Antony took over after Caesar was killed, so that "imperial threat" was still around.

The Traitor idea is interesting, but I'm inclined to think it's unlikely and would probably balance the game further against the town for the reason Elmo stated - lack of associative tells = not Mafia. Variations of the Traitor could be considered. I dislike this sort of speculation, though, because we can never confirm any of it, making it mostly useless.

Glork, I don't see your issue with us speculating about there being 2 scum, or why we'd bother to pretend to speculate about it. That's not WIFOM, it's more why the fuck would scum even start thinking to fake that? See my list of suspects from my first posts - Yos is town and for whatever reason, a scum team of dahill-Incog-Glork didn't feel right to me. Like Elmo, I thought we'd have a powerole claim by now and just the way things were going, particularly the Pathetric kill, made me start thinking mountainous. I dunno, like EVERYONE was hunting like they were vanilla.


I was wrong about Yos and that was depressing, so I'm cautious about where to look right now. Elmo and I will be discussing it.

@ Incog, Ass, Tuber -

What do you make of charter's claimed results and do you think it's wise to consider them when deciding on where to look/who to lynch today?


Also, I'm going to have limited access over the next three weeks. I'll probably be able to post every few days. I think Elmo and I together should be able to keep up with everything.

des

[Incognito]

@ Incog, Ass, Tuber -

What do you make of charter's claimed results and do you think it's wise to consider them when deciding on where to look/who to lynch today?

For the moment, I'm leaning towards believing the claim. I initially thought there was a slight inconsistency in what charter was saying when he speculated that this might be an inverted AitP set-up: I thought his speculation happened

pre-game

as opposed to recently like he claims to have speculated after all the claims were gotten in. If he had speculated during pre-game about this, I couldn't think of any reason why he wouldn't have just investigated his top suspect (dahill1) in those back to back nights that he claims to have drawn investigations on Glork and then Erratus Apathos.

Further, it seems reasonable to assume that we likely have a scum team of 2 people so that if we work under that logic (and yes, some of this is subject to WIFOM), it would seem somewhat suicidal for a charter-scum to claim power role Brutus when this wouldn't even be considered a LyLo situation -> if we mislynched today or even lynched correctly today, a charter-scum would still be alive tomorrow and would have to explain away how he survived through the night when it doesn't even seem like any protective roles exist in this set-up.

Glork's traitor theory sounds interesting, but I think it fails to account for the fact that while Brutus was indeed a traitor, he was a traitor to Caesar

himself

-- according to my role PM, Caesar's the exact person we're trying to kill. I still remember that famous line

"Et tu, Brute!"

that I learned back in high school English or History that Julius shouted after Brutus stabbed him in the back. If you ask me, I'd think Brutus would be the absolute

last

person a potential Caesar character would want to recruit into his scum team lol.

---

Aside from that, even though charter got non-Caesar results on EA and Glork, I don't think that means that neither one of them can't be scum. I'm sure there's potential there for at least one of them to be a Caesar henchman, so I don't think they should be exempt from any kind of scrutiny today. As of right now, I'm still very suspicious of both El Destructo and Erratus Apathos for the reasons I listed yesterday. I'm beginning to think that early spat between EA and RV looks even more contrived than ever now that this much information about the set-up has been revealed. I need to reread from Day 1 though to see if this changes anything about my current reads.

[Incognito]

Glork's traitor theory sounds interesting, but I think it fails to account for the fact that while Brutus was indeed a traitor, he was a traitor to Caesar

himself

-- according to my role PM, Caesar's the exact person we're trying to kill. I still remember that famous line

"Et tu, Brute!"

that I learned back in high school English or History that Julius shouted after Brutus stabbed him in the back. If you ask me, I'd think Brutus would be the absolute

last

person a potential Caesar character would want to recruit into his scum team lol.

Hmm... though now that I think about it, I guess Caesar wouldn't have known that at the time, now would he? Maybe that's what Glork was getting at.

[Glork]

Glork, I don't see your issue with us speculating about there being 2 scum, or why we'd bother to pretend to speculate about it. That's not WIFOM, it's more why the fuck would scum even start thinking to fake that? See my list of suspects from my first posts - Yos is town and for whatever reason, a scum team of dahill-Incog-Glork didn't feel right to me. Like Elmo, I thought we'd have a powerole claim by now and just the way things were going, particularly the Pathetric kill, made me start thinking mountainous. I dunno, like EVERYONE was hunting like they were vanilla.

Bothers was probably very poor word choice. Surprises would be more accurate. I guess I just thought that everyone else would assume more scums and more power. Honestly, I have no rational explanation for why that went through my head.


Incog:

If

Charter is a scum traitor, I didn't mean to imply that he was still Brutus. What I meant to imply was "If Charter is a scum traitor, claming Brutus is both safe, and is a breadcrumb to 'I am your ally' to whomever Ceasar may be."


I

REALLY

want to hear more from EA and Tuber as soon as humanly possible. Both have been VERY quiet as of late, and that bothers me.

[Erratus Apathos]

After the massclaim, I'm no longer certain that Glork and Dahill are town - I jumped away from them the way I did because I thought they were masons. I'll reread them, and probably everyone else too, but it'd take one hell of a tell for me to prefer any lynch other than charter. Bolding for emphasis:

charter, you've been pushing for a dahill1 lynch since like Day 1. If you feel like this is some kind of inverted AitP, why did you never choose to investigate dahill1?

Night 1 I didn't because I assumed that after the idiocy of Xtoxm we could just lynch dahill. Night 2 I didn't because (largely the same reason) I wanted to see if Yos was on to anything.
I really have no idea as to the setup, that was just an idea I threw out.

i also don't get why charter wouldn't have investigated me since it seemed like i was/is his number one suspect
also, assuming we have 3 scum, i find it really unlikely that it's 3:1:8, with the neutral being a survivor and only 1 town power role that only serves the purpose of finding just 1 scum.
i'm starting to think that with this number of vanillas it could be more than one scum group

How can you say there's more than one scum group?

Look at the conspirator role pm!

Look at the one kill per night we're having! Neither makes any sense whatsoever with more than one scum group.

Oh. I didn't get one of those so

I never really looked at it

. Chill.

...yeah.

Vote: charter

[Glork]

Unvote, Vote: Charter

Excellent catch.

[Glork]

Actually,

Unvote, Vote: El Destructo

. I want to hear what Charter has to say for himself, first.

[charter]

That I didn't get a townie role pm? What more is there to say?

[dahill1]

i think what they're referring to is the contradiction between the two posts that EA quoted

[Assmaster]

Unvote, Vote: Charter

Excellent catch.

Er, no it isn't. I understand the reason you did it, but that's a tremendously shitty reason to be swayed. I'm dissapointed if you think that's legitimate. EA gets a bit more of a pass, you should you really know better.

[charter]

Oh, well I checked it when I wrote that. Forgot it when I made the second post like a day later.

The fact that that's all EA has to contribute to this game I think is suspect.

[Assmaster]

@ Incog, Ass, Tuber - What do you make of charter's claimed results and do you think it's wise to consider them when deciding on where to look/who to lynch today?

I think it's wise to ignore them. If they were confirmed innocents it'd be relevant, but this is nothing unless Ceaser is revealed, and we can't rely on it.

I feel like you went from extremely skeptical to extremely accepting about there being "Caesars and Brutus's" with very little in between. What caused this revelation?

He presupposed a theory that requires a Brutus and a Ceaser, which I then pointed a hole in. Ceaser I can see as possible, though I think it is a bit weak. I don't think there's a Brutus.

[charter]

So you think I'm lying then?

[Incognito]

It's time to put my money where my mouth is.

Vote: Erratus Apathos
Huge FoS: Glork

715 and 716 are terrible. If you can't see why, please go jump off a bridge.