Mini 727 - Mafia in Standardville - Game Over

[Xdaamno]

t;]@charter
no i diddn't see the need to vote you or fos you at the time because i have seen you do more scummy stuff in a game as town so i am willing to let it slide


panzer doesn't bother me that much but i am getting annoyed at xdaamo and feel that he is the correct lynch for today

You're being uncooperative town. I have asked you many times over to justify your bizzare attacks, and you seem to think it is fine to ignore me and repeat yourself. If you want to be playing the best you can, it is vital you review your own case and make sure you have not been fooled or self-deceptive, which means throwing away "vibes" unless you can back them up.

Here's a good question for you to answer: "what makes someone more likely to annoy you if they are scum?"

hush,
i play the way i play
i see you attacks as argumentative and annoying. I dislike your holier than thou appraoch to tone in your posts and i feel you need to be lynched, and as far as attacks i really haven't made any other that agreeing with what lynx has said. So in closing look eslwhere to engage in a thread dominating argument for i won't be your huckleberry on that one.

Looking back over my posts, I'm guilty of a holier than thou attitude. It's not intentional, and it probably looks worse when I try to run things through step-by-step, logically. But that is something I need to work on.

However, what the hell would that have to do with my alignment? And why are you so aversive to answering my questions in the first place? At the least, you could simply make the effort to point out why they are loaded, fallacious, emotionally misleading or whatever else you would like to claim.

Your response reminds me of the "God moves in mysterious ways" argument. You're not God. You're not immune to logical questions; you can't claim to have some kind of veil that protects you from anything you don't like the answer to. You're here to play mafia.

[tubby216]

exactly and i am playing this game the way i see fit to play it. Obv I feel that your "logical questions" do not require a response for me. So in short yes I am intentionally blowing you off.

[Xdaamno]

exactly and i am playing this game the way i see fit to play it. Obv I feel that your "logical questions" do not require a response for me. So in short yes I am intentionally blowing you off.

Why?

[Artem]

I like 352 and 366. I still see connections between artem and xda, particularly the way artem is trying to see panzer as an alternative "wagon" when really it was just pulled out of the blue by one player. The way artem is asking everyone their opnion on panzer is odd... it's deflection.

Do you actually read the thread before you chime in with "I like others' arguments" accusations? It's charter, who's asking for everybody's opinion, not I. Also, if you think that I'm pulling attention away from Xda, then I suggest you read my 304.

-----------------

Xda should still post his pbp analysis... or his Panzer case. Currently, he's doing nothing but using "No U" arguments instead of providing the content he promised.

[PJ.]

Currently Reading and taking notes. @Artem I did read that post and there was nothing that stood out as an actually reason beside lurking. So maybe you should post better?

[Xdaamno]

Xda should still post his pbp analysis... or his Panzer case. Currently, he's doing nothing but using "No U" arguments instead of providing the content he promised.

I will when I feel like it.

[PJ.]

Addressing Artem first.

[quote=Artem]...charter made no posts, and my only post can be summed up as "Yes, I have addressed those points." The only post about me between 174 and 185 that is of interest is 179 by Dan. Dan basically states that he is less suspicious of me now. Panzer simply echos the sentiment in 185. This is suspicious because it feel like Panzer is/was piggy-backing Dan in his attack against me. [/quote]

I wasn't Piggy backing Dan but my suspicions did mirror(except for you and charter being connected) and you did answer his suspicions and I went back and looked at the post in which you said you answered his questions and after reading those posts, I looked at Charter's actions and decided to let it go for now. So in short Between post 174 and 185 there was nothing but I looked at previous post and reviewed my own thoughts and thought, "there isn't much here right now"

Now on to charter, I'll address the taking pressure of Artem. True there was one vote on Artem but all the posts at that time were talking about Artem and how he was being scummy and people were starting to vote him. In my opinion you were trying to steer away from that by intentionally causing a WIFOM arguement. My post was clearly a pressure vote on BSG with an inlaid trap because I didn't want it to go to L-2 in fear of a qucik lynch because of the ammount of newbies and newbie-esque players in this game.

Now on to how my suspicions are seemingly me just latching on. I was the first one to be suspicious of Darox I believe and I didn't feel it was worth going into. If he is a PGO then more power too him and us as town. But we can't just ignore him. Also, I thought he made good points against lynx but I didn't FoS nor Vote Lynx. I didn't think I needed to, I just felt Darox was justified in his opinions and stated so.

I voted XD because of his promises to reread that he never followed through on, his BS "pressure vote" on Artem that I truly think was an attempt to lynch(possibly bus), and all of his excuses for not being involved with game until all the attacks focused on him. Also, the week long break between "Okay I'll post more" and the attempt to lynch Artem rubbed me the wrong way.

[PJ.]

EBWOP: I forgot the quotation marks..

[charter]

Happy with a Panzer lynch. An Xdaamo lynch is an acceptable last resort.

[LlamaFluff]

Vote Count

Xdaamno (5) - Lynx the Antithesis, Danchaofan, Panzerjager, Lowell, Tubby216
Panzerjager (4) - Xdaamno, Artem, Charter, Darox
Artem (1) - Afatchic
Darox (1) - Artifex

Not Voting (1) - Master Ruck

Deadline for day one is January 25th at 11:00 AM, PST, under 48 hours from this post. At deadline if a lynch has not been acheived, the player with the most votes will be lynched in accordance with the rules.

[charter]

MR, afatchic, and artifex.

FoS all of you. Pick a wagon, I don't believe that you don't find either of Panzer or Xdaamo scummy.

[PJ.]

Seriously, charter? Dude, all this is is a pissing contest. You want to prove that you were right that saying -2 is no scummier then -3. You know what, you're right. L-2 is pretty much nothing as L-3. What I said was to see if anyone would test it, and trap themselves in WIFOM. You are scummy for doing that. Onlt reason you have me as scum, is because of that one statement, a statement that in the end game, won't even matter. Use your brain and not your ego. XD is scummier then I am, that's why ever since his wagon started, he was your number 1 suspect and me you're number 2.

I'm definently surprised at the quickness of my wagon though. Looks like I was right about you and Artem, say that it doesn't matter but I'd be willing to bet that you and Artem are scum and I wouldn't be surprised if XD was with you guys.

[Artem]

@Panzer: One thing I want you to address specifically is the claim chase. You were pushy about getting me to claim but you don't even hint on claiming with Xd, even though Xd has repeatedly hit L-1. Why the difference? Do you already know Xd's role or are you avoiding asking for a claim because I preemptively called it? If the latter, why?

@Charter: Same question.

Also,

Happy with a Panzer lynch. An Xdaamo lynch is an acceptable last resort.

This is scummy. You're simply brushing off Panzer's defense without ever addressing anything in it.

FoS: Charter

@Xd:

I will when I feel like it.

You've repeatedly hit L-1 and with the current state of the game, you will be deadline lynched. If you were town, you would be concentrated on getting information into the hands of town while you still can. The fact that you haven't been too concerned with it makes you either a lazy townie or a scum. Good riddance in either case, imo. The argument about your post having to be the last one of the day doesn't hold any water. As somebody already mentioned, all eyes are currently on you and whatever you post about other players will not simply be brushed off when (and if) you cardflip town.

And if you need more motivation to get cranking:

Unvote; Vote: Xdaamno; FoS: Panzer

This

is how you pressure vote.

[charter]

Panzer really didn't respond to my points. He still thinks I was trying to take suspicion off Artem. This makes no sense and there was really not that much suspicion on Artem to begin with. His explaination about there being a lot of newbies in this game is flawed. It's not a NG, it's a mini. If someone makes a newbie mistake, "I didn't know better, I'm a newbie" doesn't fly.

He says he was suspicious of all the people he's voted/FoS'ed but didn't explain why he hasn't been doing anything other than voting and leaving it there. I can see that he was suspicious of them, and he basically reiterated his original suspicions in that post. He didn't explain the suspicious part, about why he finds everyone that has come under scrutiny suspicious but just votes for them and leaves it at that.

The worst thing is how he agreed with only my reasoning for voting Artem, but still thinks we're scumbuddies. How on earth does this work? Also his quickness to accept me and Artem's explainations for stuff (even if they were non existant) and then still say we're scumbuddies.

I'm not asking for a claim because you're right. I don't want to be seen as a rolefisher. I think it's fairly obvious he's not a power role or else he would have mentioned it though.

[Artifex]

MR, afatchic, and artifex.

FoS all of you. Pick a wagon, I don't believe that you don't find either of Panzer or Xdaamo scummy.

Dude. I already 'picked my wagon'- I said pages ago I'm willing to vote Xda, and I said why too. I'm not as interested in the Panzer votes that are going on because there are very few people who I think have legit cases against him, which means I'm going to have to look very closely at the folks on that wagon before I hop alongside of them. The reason I'm waiting now is that Xdaamno says he's going to make some sort of case, or post, or something of interest? I don't think you or anyone should be pushing a hammer with almost two days left to deadline- it makes me wonder if someone wants to cut Xda off for some reason.

[Artifex]

My problem with the Panzerwagon is this- four people on it- Xdaamno, Artem, Charter, Darox. Xda has been pretty straight up that he's voting for Panzer so that he doesnt get lynched himself. This is for obvious reasons not a compelling argument for me to also vote. Artem- I think he's genuinely scumhunting here. I do disagree with what seems to be his main issue with Panzer- this rolefishing business. If I'm understanding you correctly, youre are saying you preemptively called out role fishing in order to gauge peoples reactions to it. You find Panzer's reaction scummy cause he pushed hard when you were at L-1 but didnt when Xda hit the same count...right? My problem with this is that I dont get the 'preemptive' part. When you posted that, I thought you were dead on- we were a long ways away from deadline and had yet another player at L-1...if there had been calls for another role claim I'd have been very wary at that point. So, if your main point is inconistency in another's play, I dont see an inconsistency. Darox- dont trust him. I also dont agree with the theory that responses made while frustrated arent as relevant to responses made under pressure. Players get frustrated because of the pressure- I find this sort of thing just as telling because they're related to each other. Charter- I actually think Charter has the only legit case to be made on Panzer. The charter/artem pairing theory doesnt have a lot of proof behind it, and that Panzer uses it to justify actions he makes does seem suspicious to me, now that its been pointed out. Does this warrant more investigation- yeah. Im not willing to vote on it, though.

Out of the things that Xda has said this week, this bothers me most:

I would prefer any member of this game to be lynched before me.

This is not a town thing to say. Not because of the argument you make for why you voted Panzer in 362- I understand that, and find it thing for you to do no matter what your alignment. But I dont understand you wanting anybody else lynched before you. If youre town, you can still win even if you get lynched but town wins- it provides valuable evidence if nothing else. I would understand your thought process if you were the doctor or something- for a minute when I first read your post, I even thought you might be hinting at something like that. But then why would you have offfered to self hammer if you had such a role? So I dont like or agree with this statement for a townie to say.

[PJ.]

That's just my biggest lead, so I'm using it.

@Artem: I didn't ask for a claim because I've not really been here and when I did get here I was at -3 2 days from deadline. I had other pressing matters Even though I agree with Charter, I actually would like a claim. For The Record.

[afatchic]

MR, afatchic, and artifex.

FoS all of you. Pick a wagon, I don't believe that you don't find either of Panzer or Xdaamo scummy.

Not until i finish catching up, which will be before deadline. i forgot to do this earlier... so

Unvote

[Danchaofan]

We're currently at no-lynch by "05] DEADLINE LYNCH RULES: As the At deadline, a person will be lynched if they have a majority of voters voting for them. That means you can be lynched with just one vote if only one person is voting. If no one has a majority of the votes cast, it is a no-lynch." So within the next 24 hours I'd rather we loose he artem/darox votes and if your suspicious of pz or xd, put a vote on them (although maybe not xd just yet because I'm not inclined to see a premature self-hammer). I will post in more substance a bit later.

[PJ.]

Actually, XD is the lynch.. He has the most votes. IF we were tied, it'd be a no lynch.

[LlamaFluff]

To clarify the deadline lynch rule: The player with the most votes at deadline will be lynched when deadline hits if a normal lynch has not been achieved. In the event of a tied vote at deadline, there will be no lynch and the game will proceed directly to night.

[Darox]

Darox - I also dont agree with the theory that responses made while frustrated arent as relevant to responses made under pressure. Players get frustrated because of the pressure- I find this sort of thing just as telling because they're related to each other.

Maybe you should try reading my posts properly rather than skimming them then assuming I'm wrong.

[Danchaofan]

Also, from another game, I'm coming to the conclusion that D1 speculation on scum pairs is rather pointless. The possibility of masons, sks, multiple families and varying scum team size due to varying amount of power of town roles throws a wrench into the whole business so I honestly think we should wait a night (or at least until twilight) and not distract ourselves.

[Danchaofan]

Alright, finished a first read and here are some thoughts:

1) Aside from someone seriously dropping some scum tells, because of deadline I think everyone should be go to xda or panz for a D1 wagon (honestly I'm starting to have some doubts in scum-xda but I don't think we have time). i.e. to those who haven't voted or strongly expressed an opinion, stop fence-sitting =)

2) Reading the thread Panz has been posting scum pairs which lately I've been weary of (although I'm getting it more from a game that had a 2-week dl (and 1 week for every following day) so distracting things like scum pairs when one doesn't have a clue as to what the set-up is (i.e. d1) was distracting and probably more anti-town than in our situation). I'm not too sure about some of the other points made about panz i.e. calling l-2 scummy, the role-fishing, I'm still debating which side is stronger regarding the whole "artem has sufficiently defended" (clearly, I admitted that artem came off less scummy, so, I think it is possible for someone else to admit that artem is less scummy given the same posts, however I need to refresh my memory as to whether or not panz's points against artem were similar to mine or not.)

3) Xda is coming of a bit more town-ish... but, xda willing to self-hammer and then switching wagons is way more survivor-esque as opposed to town-esque imo. It seems as tho xda's saying don't vote more I'll self hammer and end the day (and it's working because artifex voiced disinterest but is avoiding voting) and then pushes the wagon (that charter initially thought was a vibe and one of xda's semi-major reasons seems to be to save himself). The lack of pbpa or panz case or general comment before he had to start defending himself means I'd rather not have this townie around close to end game. Or maybe we could [jokingly]beg scum to kill xda if we happen to lynch panz. I mean seriously wouldn't you want to have a whole bunch of active people and people who DON'T just post to defend themselves and who WON'T accidentally hammer people to save yourself from dirtying your hands around in end-game[/jokingly]

[Xdaamno]

You've repeatedly hit L-1 and with the current state of the game, you will be deadline lynched. If you were town, you would be concentrated on getting information into the hands of town while you still can. The fact that you haven't been too concerned with it makes you either a lazy townie or a scum. Good riddance in either case, imo. The argument about your post having to be the last one of the day doesn't hold any water. As somebody already mentioned, all eyes are currently on you and whatever you post about other players will not simply be brushed off when (and if) you cardflip town.

And if you need more motivation to get cranking:

Unvote; Vote: Xdaamno; FoS: Panzer

This

is how you pressure vote.

This is not the time for pressure voting, as we are approaching a deadline. This is my last post until Artem unvotes.