Lawrencelot wrote:If Bd2 and Be2 are the main options, I'llMove: Be2.
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MafiaSSK Jack of All Trades
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Awesome Pants Friends Forever! <3
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For your information:Moves
Bd2(4)-SensFan,Pesco47,Abstract Actuary,The Central Scruitinizer
Be2(4)-Veerus,Indigo Heron, sirdanilot
Qb3(1)-Goatrevolt
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Veerus(1)-The Central Scrutinizer
Pesco47(1)-Veerus[b]Currently being used By MafiaSSK for Chess Mafia. With all due permission from AP himself.[/b]-
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Awesome Pants Friends Forever! <3
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Awesome Pants Friends Forever! <3
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Indigo Heron Goon
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Abstract Actuary Goon
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Abstract Actuary Goon
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d5 looked much better to me than b5 for black. Also, Qb3 looks much better to me than Qd3. I think we should wait until a few more people weigh in before we discuss anything. If a large majority want one move or the other, then we should just play it without discussion. Force them to go into this next move with a smaller idea of our plan and how to follow up against these moves.-
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Lawrencelot Mafia Scum
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veerus Mafia Scum
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Hm.. both Qb3 and Qd3 leave us in an equally undesirable situation. The following Qb3 follow-up will likely result in an exchange that will open up the board but will leave us a pawn down.. do we really want to do that? Or are those voting for Qb3 not planning on capturing the pawn next move?
Awesome Pants wrote:>Current chess board
On a long enough timeline, the survival rate for everyone drops to zero.
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Indigo Heron Goon
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And here I thought this was a no-brainer. Had you guys wanted to move to Qb3, you should have done it on move 11, not move 12. It is simply a move too late...
11. Bd2 b5 12. Qd3 O-O 13. Qb3 (or perhaps 13. Qxf5) Kh8 14. Bd3 Bb7 15. Bxf5 Rc8 16. Ne5 Ne4 17. Bxe4 Bxe4 18. O-O Rxc2.
That was what I refuted as a (quite possibly) a best case scenario for us WAY back around post #530. Unless someone wishes to prove me otherwise...
Now, if we take 12. Qb3,
11. Bd2 b5 12. Qb3 Bb7 13. Ne5 Bd5 14. Qh3 O-O 15. Bd3 Ne4 16. Bxe4 Bxe4 17. Qb3 d5 18. O-O Qd6 19. Rfe1 Rac8 20. Rac1 Rfe8
From my PoV, White is in a worse position against Black than we are had we moved 12. Qd3.
In any case, I'm looking at the aggressive-looking Qxf5, which may be something that could help give us an advantage.
Note: The lines above were taken to and re-asserted from post #530.最愛心。。。-
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Goatrevolt Pond Scum
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Deja vu? Qxf5 is not an option here.Indigo Heron wrote:In any case, I'm looking at the aggressive-looking Qxf5, which may be something that could help give us an advantage.
Indigo is correct, though. I tried to find a better scenario for the lines he posted and could not do so. Based on that, Qd3 seems superior to Qb3. The only other option is Qe2, which seems to be strictly inferior to Qd3.
Move Qd3-
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Goatrevolt Pond Scum
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Abstract Actuary Goon
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We aren't a pawn down in this position. In fact we are a pawn up (although about to lose one back).veerus wrote:Hm.. both Qb3 and Qd3 leave us in an equally undesirable situation. The following Qb3 follow-up will likely result in an exchange that will open up the board but will leave us a pawn down.. do we really want to do that? Or are those voting for Qb3 not planning on capturing the pawn next move?
Awesome Pants wrote:>Current chess board
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Indigo Heron Goon
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Abstract Actuary Goon
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There is no later forced position where we are down a pawn that I can see. As a matter of fact, I like the position he shows (which may not involve optimal moves for either white or black) a lot better than our current position.Indigo Heron wrote:He didn't say this position. He meant the position later.
Why does everyone insist on talking so dramatically like they've always 100% refuted a line when they haven't even come close? In your own post below you say "There may be better moves than this" and then "but the position obviously gets us nowhere". That is nowhere near "all the stupid things that will happen".Indigo Heron wrote:In any case, please refer to post #530 for all the stupid things that will happen with 12. Qb3.
In addition, your 530 is a line that involved Qd3, then Qb3. So (1) it absolutely does not apply to playing Qb3 first and (2) is an absolute waste of an analysis, because we would never play Qd3 and then Qb3. Like you said "there may be better moves".
Indigo Heron wrote:11. Bd2 b5 12. Qd3 O-O 13. Qb3 Kh8 14. Bd3 Bb7 15. Bxf5 Rc8 16. Ne5 Ne4 17. Bxe4 Bxe4 18. O-O Rxc2
That's on my piece of paper. There may be better moves than this, but this position obviously gets us nowhere, in my opinion.-
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Indigo Heron Goon
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veerus Mafia Scum
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Qd3 can be answered with d5 or g6. Black wouldn't castle.
Also, I didn't realize that in my earlier analysis, but AA is right - we are a pawn up before black gets that pawn back. My reservations about that position is that our king is under pressure from the black knight/queen combo. The position I posted puts us in a real jam after 17...Nxf4 or Qf2 depending on where the king moves. On the other hand, 17. Kd1 kind of neutralizes both of those moves at the cost of locking one of our rooks in the corner for a while which isn't great either... hmm (just thinking out loud here)
I guess the point is that both moves are bleak but there may be some hope for getting out of this jam in a few moves. I'm still torn between Qd3 and Qb3 as both delay black castling for a turn and put pressure on a different pawn. I've played out one possible scenario for Qb3. Still need to examine 12. Qb3 a5.
Also 12. Qd3 followed by g6, d5 and Bb7 (with the threat of Be4 if Qxf5)On a long enough timeline, the survival rate for everyone drops to zero.
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veerus Mafia Scum
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Goatrevolt Pond Scum
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I'm pretty sure I know what you're talking about. It's best not to mention it, although I think the damage may be done simply by nature of pointing out that there is such a move set.Indigo Heron wrote:I see a break for d5 that may be advantageous to us. I am reluctant to reveal it, though, and allow Black the pleasure of already having their moves calculated and analysed for them.
I think much of our current discussion is harmful. All of the discussion is based around what we do after we play Qd3 and how black might respond to Qd3, etc. which isn't exactly helping us any unless it's actually affecting whether or not we SHOULD play Qd3, and to my understanding, it isn't. If we can all agree that we should play Qd3, we should simply play it, and shut up about how black might respond.-
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Goatrevolt Pond Scum
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Actually, here's an idea:
If you see a positive line for white, which I'll call X, don't point it out, but rather suggest you think moving the first move of X is our best move.
If you see a negative move set for us, go ahead and point it out, as we don't want to make that move anyway (I think we should play from the assumption that black makes the best move they have available).
Thoughts?
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