Mini 734 - GrimMafia - OVER

[Ectomancer]

vote Zachrulez

because he would prefer to play in a game of strangers and seems to fear what Beyond_Birthday might see.

[Ectomancer]

O.o

[Ectomancer]

My vote was not random.

[Ectomancer]

Does that mean you'll be voting again since the votes are reset?

Indeed.

vote Zachrulez

[Ectomancer]

What just happened?

Vote: Ectomancer

You have no idea what happened, yet you decide to vote.

@Ecto: IF your vote wasn't random, then what was it?

Yes, what was it?

Vote: Ectomancer

"Yes what was it", is the cause for your vote? It doesn't appear random to me.


You may have heard people espouse that "random voting has information" when the argument comes up over whether a random voting stage should even exist. This is one of those cases where a pro-random vote stage gets a point.

Vote: Beyond_Birthday

Because he's the only player I'm familiar with.

Here is what I had to say about that.

vote Zachrulez

because he would prefer to play in a game of strangers and seems to fear what Beyond_Birthday might see.

Zachrulez, of all the people to choose from, decided to vote Beyond_Birthday and stated his reason. He was familiar with him. In my experience a room full of strangers is certainly easier to get away with lies than with a room full of people who know you.
I can't remember the game number, but IRC I NK'd SlySly as scum because we know each other in real life, and I knew he would see through the plans I had for the game.

This is certainly not something you want to go all the way to lynch with without examining the players subsequent actions, but it is certainly far removed from a random stage.

To be honest, I am now far more concerned with the two players that i quoted above. I'm also a believer that you gain more information from the reactions to a move out of the random stage than you actually get out of the target of your pressure.

[Ectomancer]

Of the two, this one concerns me more:

zwetschenwasser wrote:
What just happened?

Vote: Ectomancer


You have no idea what happened, yet you decide to vote.

unvote, vote zwetschenwasser

[Ectomancer]

Interesting. Except for

maybe

Zer0ph34r ,and Im not certain there, you are the only player that I'm familiar with...

[Ectomancer]

I've seen your name. You post in mafia discussion a bit? I check there from time to time. Like I said, I was unsure.

[Ectomancer]

Interesting. Except for

maybe

Zer0ph34r ,and Im not certain there, you are the only player that I'm familiar with...

Don't want to ask why my vote is not random?

Prefer to cast soft doubt on me instead?

Nope, I figured I would wait and see how these others reacted to your vote. I would ask later, but now is too early to spoil the game by asking you directly.

Is your vote without reason anything but soft doubt? Let's not be hypocritical.

[Ectomancer]

vote: Sipylus

because its his birthday, hes from down under, and, again, because. thats why

What the hell is this? Random stage voting? We were out of that stage at my first post.

vote Skillit

[Ectomancer]

unvote, vote Skillit

[Ectomancer]

"Yes what was it", is the cause for your vote? It doesn't appear random to me.

I was echoing Beyond_Birthday's question - if your vote wasn't random, then what was the reasoning behind it?

Random voting is always a good beginning; how else does an uninformed majority ease into finding an informed minority?

Are you deliberately being dense here? You obviously started to read my post because you quoted it. Did you bother finishing it? You know, that part where I tell you why it wasn't random?

Random voting is always a good beginning; how else does an uninformed majority ease into finding an informed minority?

Clearly didn't even read what I said.

You may have heard people espouse that "random voting has information" when the argument comes up over whether a random voting stage should even exist. This is one of those cases where a pro-random vote stage gets a point.

Excuse me, but sloppy play irritates me.

[Ectomancer]

Bah, so many things wrong with that post I failed to get them all.

Nuwen that still doesn't explain why you voted.

[Ectomancer]

It's not a random vote. While Zachrulez was a good way to get out of the random stage (and with a legitimate point), the only true way to get past that is to begin putting pressure on questionable reactions. There were two of them that I noted, and of the two I felt zwetschenwasser to be more questionable, hence pressure, and I like a vote for pressure. FOS's are alot more rare.
I am continuing to pursue Nuwen as well as you can see. I am still unsatisfied with him because I don't yet see his cause for a vote (though now the opportunity for plagiarism presents itself). 3rd times a charm perhaps? What cause would you assign to your vote Nuwen? What motivated you?

[Ectomancer]

I was referring to "We were out of that stage at my first post.' Sorry, I should have made that clearer

Do you, or do you not agree that the random stage was way over when Skillit voted for Sipylus?

If so, why are you nitpicking? Eyeballing my 3 votes and wondering if you can push it a bit?

If not, read on.

I've got news for you that you might not like. The random stage is indeed over when a vote is placed that is not random. Learn to like it. The random stage isn't a merry-go-round that everyone gets to ride on before the actual game begins. Games have begun without a random vote stage at all.

In other words, yeah, its over when I or any other player says it's over.

[Ectomancer]

PerAdua, your assessment of Ectomancer's play so far please.

Seconded. I'm confounded by a player so determined to get their random voting phase. Random vote away. Please get it out of your system so that you can play the game with the rest of us.

Of the two, this one concerns me more:

zwetschenwasser wrote:
What just happened?

Vote: Ectomancer


You have no idea what happened, yet you decide to vote.

unvote, vote zwetschenwasser

This is no over-reaction Zwet. You claim to have no idea what is going on, but throw an unexplained vote on me. Calling this OMGUS is a failed attempt at dismissing the thrust of the argument. Either explain yourself without the blonde in your eyes or expect to be further pressured, and I damn well hope that it won't be just from me.

[Ectomancer]

Ok, I'll accept that as a final answer on that topic.

[Ectomancer]

Its interesting anyhow. People not far off the 50 mark, which at this stage they really shouldn't be. I don't know that I consider a lurker to be a 35 though. Personally I think that lurker = scum is way overrated. Lurker = anti-town, that's a valid sentiment, but my own experience tells me that lurking is a universal trait.

What do you believe is an appropriate number of votes on a lurker? Let's take the current situation as the example.

[Ectomancer]

Anyone else, how do you rate chaff v not posting at all?

I pressure to replace people who don't post(usually the mod if there has been no response in thread to a lurker call). Someone said that I could be a bit harsh, so you can understand how I might tell someone to either play the game or get out of the way for someone else who will.
There are a couple of terms I find associated with the chafe comment.
One of the terms I use is "muddying the waters". It is arguing about what is essentially nothing. One reason my hackles were raised by this drawn out non-argument about whether people are entitled to random votes and who has the "authority" to call the RVS over. Err, what? This type of play should garner strong attention and active deterrents.
Lots of theory discussion can also qualify as chaff (though not always). Since town can easily be drawn into it (and sometimes it is tough to tell who is the instigator or perpetuator), the best move in that situation is to move the conversation towards more fruitful ground.

unvote

Tired of quibbling over these random votes with people.

[Ectomancer]

Anyone else, how do you rate chaff v not posting at all?

I pressure to replace people who don't post(usually the mod if there has been no response in thread to a lurker call). Someone said that I could be a bit harsh, so you can understand how I might tell someone to either play the game or get out of the way for someone else who will.
There are a couple of terms I find associated with the chafe comment.
One of the terms I use is "muddying the waters". It is arguing about what is essentially nothing. One reason my hackles were raised by this drawn out non-argument about whether people are entitled to random votes and who has the "authority" to call the RVS over. Err, what? This type of play should garner strong attention and active deterrents.
Lots of theory discussion can also qualify as chaff (though not always). Since town can easily be drawn into it (and sometimes it is tough to tell who is the instigator or perpetuator), the best move in that situation is to move the conversation towards more fruitful ground.

unvote

Tired of quibbling over these random votes with people.

Quitting the spotlight so soon? I thought you wanted it?

I'm neither convince by Perdua not do I like Zwet's 'lighten up' reply to Ectomancer.

I agree with the assessment of Zero's post by Sipylus.

Someone has to crank up the engine. Once started it runs just fine on its own, you just have to keep giving it gas. It's counter-productive to continue cranking unless it has stalled.

[Ectomancer]

Using the term speedlynch and trying to assign a label of "good" and "bad" is not possible because it leaves ambiguous such questions as whether or not you wait for a claim, or whether you lynch regardless of claim (sounds silly, but you never know people). If you don't go through with it, then we dont really have a speed lynch (one didnt happen).
One advantage to it would be that pressure is quickly mounted and if scum is not driving it, they are forced to make rapid decisions, and of course have a greater chance of making mistakes. A long day is good, sure, but it also allows scum time to lay designs into the game. It isn't always a bad thing to rattle them out of their tracks.
The real question of course is, what are they being speedlynched for?

[Ectomancer]

Well, Sipylus, what the hell do you want me to say, what could be meaningful at this point in the game? Not much if anything.

Blah post. He's trying to pretend that he's posting content and not actively lurking. minor FoS: Zero

Springlullaby: What don't you like? I was joking about not knowing what's going on, and Ecto thought I meant it, so I set him straight.

Your comment 'sheesh, lighten up' may denotes that you do not assign possibly malicious purpose to Ectomancer's line of questioning at all. Which I don't like.

Ooh. I gotcha. He doesn't assign possibly malicious purpose because he knows it isn't.

[Ectomancer]

zwetschenwasser, you say it was a post to make it look like I was posting something meaningful, well I wasn't trying to make it look like that. It was a serious question and NOBODY had an answer, meaning that there is NOTHING TO GO BUY.

That's because the answers to that kind of question are usually learned in newbie games. In other games, that question is likely to get you a nice fat bandwagon. (Oh, and Zwet, there is no way he posted that to look like he was posting something meaningful. That was the opposite of meaningful)


Just sayin...

[Ectomancer]

Maybe you just missed the thread of conversation Spring.

Well, Sipylus, what the hell do you want me to say, what could be meaningful at this point in the game? Not much if anything.

Blah post. He's trying to pretend that he's posting content and not actively lurking. minor FoS: Zero
<snip>

zwetschenwasser, you say it was a post to make it look like I was posting something meaningful, well I wasn't trying to make it look like that. It was a serious question and NOBODY had an answer, meaning that there is NOTHING TO GO BUY.

That's because the answers to that kind of question are usually learned in newbie games. In other games, that question is likely to get you a nice fat bandwagon. (Oh, and Zwet, there is no way he posted that to look like he was posting something meaningful. That was the opposite of meaningful)


Just sayin...

The first time you read this, you responded to the portion of the quote that I snipped. I think you must have missed it because you didn't comment on Zero's statement at all, then subsequently told JereIC that if he had a better topic of discussion, point to it.

[Ectomancer]

Yeah, I'm so cuddly

Listen, I know you have to work your mind a bit, and yes early on things are going to be obvious stretches of some kind, but believe me, there are things you can comment on. You've got 5 pages right now. It only took me 1 post from another player to find something to talk about.
I really don't know how to help you except to tell you to read the first 2-3 pages of every game to see how each one got out of the random stage. That will give you an idea on how to derive information from this one.

[Ectomancer]

Did you fall and bump your head or what??

Ellipses in game aggravates me. What exactly are you guys implying?

Maybe you just missed the thread of conversation Spring.

Well, Sipylus, what the hell do you want me to say, what could be meaningful at this point in the game? Not much if anything.

Blah post. He's trying to pretend that he's posting content and not actively lurking. minor FoS: Zero
<snip>

zwetschenwasser, you say it was a post to make it look like I was posting something meaningful, well I wasn't trying to make it look like that. It was a serious question and NOBODY had an answer, meaning that there is NOTHING TO GO BUY.

That's because the answers to that kind of question are usually learned in newbie games. In other games, that question is likely to get you a nice fat bandwagon. (Oh, and Zwet, there is no way he posted that to look like he was posting something meaningful. That was the opposite of meaningful)


Just sayin...

The first time you read this, you responded to the portion of the quote that I snipped. I think you must have missed it because you didn't comment on Zero's statement at all, then subsequently told JereIC that if he had a better topic of discussion, point to it.

I'm not sure what you mean here, please reformulate. Is there a question inside the above, at all?

[Ectomancer]

At Ecto: I don't quite get what your point is either. At first, I thought you were trying to demonstrate a contradiction of some sort, so you may need to break it down or make it more obvious.

I really don't see why this is complicated to be honest. SL seems confused from the outset. You look to have gotten sucked into it somehow. Here's my analogy of my conversation with SL.

SL: What color is that hat?
Me: It's Blue.
SL: What is?
Me: The hat you asked me about.
SL: Im confused, are you asking me a question?

So, let's take all of this and hack it apart again piece by piece, although it

really

should have been picked up by both of you without my saying a word. It is a layered interaction, but that still shouldn't give SL champagne bubbles over his head. I'm just going to insert comments with a different color.

First statement that should have drawn peoples attention. In response to Sipylus, Zer0 gives the old "there's nothing to talk about" statement. /color]

Well, Sipylus, what the hell do you want me to say, what could be meaningful at this point in the game? Not much if anything.

Zwet responds with an attack on Zer0 for active lurking via pretending to post content.

Blah post. He's trying to pretend that he's posting content and not actively lurking. minor FoS: Zero
<snip>

Zero somewhere in that says he had a serious question (what is there to go on) and nobody answered. I was condesceding with my answer. Learning how to make a game go is first learned in newbie games, or reading the first 2 to 4 pages of every game to see how it moved into "meaningful" talk.

zwetschenwasser, you say it was a post to make it look like I was posting something meaningful, well I wasn't trying to make it look like that. It was a serious question and NOBODY had an answer, meaning that there is NOTHING TO GO BUY.

That's because the answers to that kind of question are usually learned in newbie games. In other games, that question is likely to get you a nice fat bandwagon. (Oh, and Zwet, there is no way he posted that to look like he was posting something meaningful. That was the opposite of meaningful)


Just sayin...

[Ectomancer]

*sigh*

Ok, Zero did ask a question, but he asked it of Sipylus who hasn't posted in 5 days.
Zero apparently forgot who he asked the question of, because he keeps asking Zwet for it.
The question has been in that quote pyramid I keep concocting, yet Birthday apparently missed that too, because he's asking Zero where he asked a question.

Zach however, has good points.

The rest of you shoot me in the head if this is going to keep up.

[Ectomancer]

The rest of you shoot me in the head if this is going to keep up.

No, me first plz.

From the past few pages, I've also sorted Zer0ph34r into the 'mildly worthless' category, but as I've seen in other games, it’s not necessarily scum. I share his sentiments of "nothing to go off of" but you gotta accept that's just the nature of the game and you can't be too distracted by it on Day 1. Instead of complaining about it, do some prodding and see what happens.

Well obviously I disagree, but I can agree with the ending sentiment.

Beyond_Birthday and PerArdua, you can't honestly think a scoring system or 'points' or any rubbish like that will actually work… do you?

A number of people (notably Vollkan) use a scoring type system. Whatever helps you catch scum I reckon. Personally I put more stock into sniffing out others motivations rather than a ticker that moves every time someone posts.

zwet, surely you see the irony in arguing about posting useful content and then saying nothing else. Give us your thoughts on some people, or at least your top 3 to start with. Sipylus and nuwen, too.

Well really he did go after Zero even if his reasoning was a bit flawed. Also, it is time to get lurkers replaced.

@mod- Prods for those who haven't posted in the last 3 days please?

btw: Zer0ph34r and spring are the ones that have caught my attention so far, what with being the centers of controversy so far. It seems like a scum's MO to stir things up.

Well Zer0 isn't trying to stir things up, he's trying to figure a way not to contribute. Spring may be stirring things up, but what do you think would happen if we all followed Zero's example? (and yours to a degree if you also "have nothing to go off")
Scum's MO is a bad bit of a phrase. Scum and town will take many of the same actions (that's why it isn't the easiest thing to catch them). Rather than trying to say that "they are being the center of controversy" and calling that scummy, you need to try to figure out

why

they seem to want to be at the center of things, and watch

what they do

while they are there, and then

how

they get out of it. From there you can derive scummy motivations.

[Ectomancer]

I've answered your question. Stop pretending as though I haven't. In fact, I spent my first few posts explaining why I was not in the random phase this game, ever.
My impression is that you just don't have the desire to do any work. I was very serious when I told you to read the first 2-3 pages of several games if you really want to know how to derive a conversation from very little.

Yeah, I'm so cuddly

Listen, I know you have to work your mind a bit, and yes early on things are going to be obvious stretches of some kind, but believe me, there are things you can comment on. You've got 5 pages right now. It only took me 1 post from another player to find something to talk about.
I really don't know how to help you except to tell you to read the first 2-3 pages of every game to see how each one got out of the random stage. That will give you an idea on how to derive information from this one.

[Ectomancer]

Get replaced then. Regardless of your alignment, you aren't helping your side at all right now.

[Ectomancer]

Zero, the first time you asked that question it was page 4. Had the mod put a deadline after page 1 and we only had 1 post, and that was to vote, I would have lynched Zachrulez and been confident that I had made much better than a random vote, and if the meta proves true I would have been right. That was after he made the very first post of the game ok? By page 4 there are so many things said that it is like a word search puzzle. The more you look, the more you find.

So, its a deadline, you only have 1 post and the day ends. Who are you lynching Zero, and why?

[Ectomancer]

Day ends sometime on Monday

Whaaat? That's our warning about a deadline? Non-negotiable even? Holy crap! Favor scum much??

[Ectomancer]

Ecto, after the votes were reset, you stated in Post #17 that your vote was not random, but you waited until Post #22, after Jere had voted for Sipy, for you to do so. Was there any reason for this?

I missed the part in post #16 where the mod said the votes were reset, which wasn't pointed out to me until post #18 by Zach, hence, I re-voted in post #22. I realize you are reading quickly in order to catch up, but when re-reading it myself, that seemed pretty self-evident.

[Ectomancer]

Apparently I miss a lot of things that the mod says. I've been told that I have a problem with authority

Good enough.

In the quiet village of Grimm, there have been many warnings of bad times to come. Milk has gone sour before the expriation date. The weather has played havok with your sattelite reception. All of your letters to that old uncle out of town who always sends you a sweet little birthday card with a dollar in it have come back unmailed. (seriously? A dollar? what are you, three?). Oh. and the Mayor of your town, the beloved, handsome, and well respected Mr. Grimmspoon was found in the center of town, torn to bloodless peices. The only signs of blood were on the wall in the town square which only said: "You will all be next"

So now we officallt reset the votes and start the game.
Deadline is tentatively set for two weeks from today. (2-2-09)

Please, keep it civil while you are trying to kill each other. Thanks

Grimmy

quoted from post 16, simply to bust Ecto's chops

[Ectomancer]

Ecto unvoted 10 days ago. Both you and the mod apparently missed it. That's exactly why I mentioned the fact that you seemed to be reading a bit quickly. I wasn't being defensive, I was being offensive (though mildly because I had just done the same thing)

P.S. - Asking someone a question and then accusing them of being defensive is one of those pet peeves. It is a real bother because both town and scum will do it, and it is a catch 22 situation of damned if you do, damned if you dont.

Have you stopped beating your wife?

[Ectomancer]

I hate the "too scummy to be scum" type of play. I've pulled it off successfully myself a time or two.
The question is whether Zero is actually trying that style gambit. Not trying to be insulting, but I don't think he has the finesse even if the elevator can reach that floor yet.

I hate to meta people, but if he's only got 2 games, I'll look at this accusation of being a better scum hunter in earlier games.

[Ectomancer]

Posting from my G1 because my internet at home has been down for the last 5 days. I'll try to make a post from work tomorrow.

[Ectomancer]

For the record, I wasn't concerned at all about being speedlynched.
Busy day here at work, I'll stay after to post, though my internet at home is supposed to be back up today

[Ectomancer]

I'm not convinced of Zero being scum, I also don't see where he is town either. The accusations that seemed to be based upon knowing his alignment are either suspicious or naive.
While a nice bookmark for later, throwing out a scumbuddy theory as a reason to lynch someone today when we haven't even lynched the first guy is premature.

[Ectomancer]

I don't believe that lack of a chance was what led us to this point. You have a chance now. Submit your scum theories if you don't mind.

[Ectomancer]

unvote

the lurker.

ISP told me it get be up to 14 days. I'm looking for another...

[Ectomancer]

Most thoughts I have seen have been conjecture on whether scummy is townie, or speculation about someone else's alignment based upon an assumption of Zero's.
Looking at the voting, we don't even have a clear cut second candidate.
Are we squeezed for a deadline, or will enough of us ask for an extension of the deadline for the mod to grant one? We need enough time to expand an existing or sprout a new bandwagon.

[Ectomancer]

Jere and Zwet, you support an extension, but your votes are still on. Were you not concerned with Zero at L-2 if you support more discussion?
This cellphone is horrid for research. Can someone see what their apparent stance was prior to this request? (We still need to submit to the mod)

mod: what's our deadline status

[Ectomancer]

You're really calling zwet an active lurker? He's kept his posts short, but they have had significant content than these long fluff-posts flting around. Hell, he's been one of the main proponents of the Zero wagon.

Precisely my point when I asked about his position on the wagon. That's why I don't believe him when he says that he wants an extension or more discussion. I think he would have been perfectly happy to see Zero lynched right then. In fact Pablo, in the quote just prior to where he said he would also like an extension/more conversation, he was trying to get you to add your vote to a wagon already at L-2.

Zero: I'm scum because I think you're scum? Makes perfect sense. And you pick now to tell us that you can be more helpful if you're given the chance? And you'll say that tomorrow and do the same thing. If you're not remotely trying to be helpful now then why should we assume you'll be better tomorrow? That's gotta be the stupidest argument I've ever seen. Pablo, there are good reasons to vote zero you seem to be ignoring.

vote Zwetschenwasser

I see a contradiction between his stated desires and his actions.

[Ectomancer]

Well slap me with a good answer.

unvote

First off, I was hoping to wait for Nuwen’s response to my question about his speedlynch argument, but it’s not necessary now as I’m not that suspicious of him anymore.

Anyway, BB’s arguments against Spring are craplogic. The main thing is his justification for his vote on Spring. In post 241, he says his argument is that she delayed Zero’s lynch, and assumes that Zero is a townie. Delaying a lynch of a townie is not particularly scummy imho. I really don’t see scum trying to delay any lynch except that of their buddies. As MaFoHero said about zwet’s 184, the real scum tell is when they stay on the lynch and gloat when it’s close to succeeding. But what really bugs me is that this argument works just as well against the other people who posted but didn’t vote for Zero. It could even work for BB and me, as we’ve jumped the bandwagon – that’s going to stop the bandwagon a lot better than just posting. Without any reason to distinguish Spring from the rest of us, his argument doesn’t hold any water.

Add to that the self-consciousness that Spring and MaFoHero pointed out and his early support of the Zero bandwagon, and I’m willing to vote for him.

Vote: Beyond_Birthday

I’m not up for a Zwet lynch yet, but I also haven’t read all of his posts that closely. I’ll try to do that tonight and post something in the morning.

As I said before, a lot of people are assuming a lot things in this game. I believe Birthday is trying to say that Spring is aware that Zero is town and is slowing down the wagon in order to appear town if Zero flips town. Hate it because #1 - It assumes the alignment of one player based upon another player with no effort towards confirming the alignment of said player. #2 - It ignores the ability of a town member to actually make a good judgment call based upon the action in the game. #3 - There are a few players this logic could be applied towards.
That being said, I've seen worse tangles of logic.

As far as self-consciousness goes, I've seen it a lot in newbie games, somewhat less in Mini's with the more experienced players. It eventually wears off. The question is whether it should have already worn off of Birthday. 6 months is a long time even if this is his first Mafia game experience.

[Ectomancer]

So this is a lengthy version of "Please ignore my crappy play I promise to do better"?

At least you made some significant commentary. I'll dig through it more thoroughly when I have the chance.

[Ectomancer]

Psst. Look up there.

[Ectomancer]

Haven't yet done a paragraph by paragraph analysis yet, but it looked to me like you changed every opinion that you've had through the whole game...
Is there an opinion you've retained and can you pull it out of the text wall?

[Ectomancer]

Patience grasshopper. I'd like to hear from his own mouth what he is going on about. I really don't see what it could be, but there you are.

[Ectomancer]

Second: Why do you know for "100% certainty" that Zwet is scum? Proof? Your role? Anything?

This was the final answer I was waiting on. I think Zero already made his best effort at answering it and his role will be revealed.

vote Zer0ph34r

[Ectomancer]

Real busy trying to deal with house buying (and repairing the one I'm in for sale) this week in particular. Hope to find some time this weekend to look at connections, but I do have a quick question for Nuwen.
I'm not certain that you have taken into account the whole situation with your theory. If JereIC flipping town is such an indicator of Spring's alignment, why would Spring have NK'd JereIC instead of someone else? I understand the old "He was creating WIFOM" argument, but with the attention it would garner, I think that hitting someone else, then going after JereIC as a lynch target today would have gained him one more day (and night) without this type of pressure. What reason do you think that Spring would have had for killing him last night? JereIC too much for him to handle during daytime discussion? Something Jere said rang too close to home for scum? He thinks Jere breadcrumbed a role?

By the way,
Nuwen's post = thinking and explanation
Zwet's post= band-wagon building "Yeah, what he said." with no obvious thought or explanation of his own individual motivation.

[Ectomancer]

I did miss the last post of page 14 Zwet, the chronology of events weighs better in your favor, but I do still have concerns about your lack of expressed reasoning.

I thought it was clear from yesterday's spring/jere debate that jere's alignment would point towards spring's scum/towniness.

Why does that make me think YOU killed JereIC?

I think this also deserves an answer. I find it likely that lesser experienced scum would be be tempted to put forth the theory they setup with the previous nightkill, especially when they provide very little in the way of reasoning. Also of note is your lack of a vote. I know some people depend upon previous vote counts to see who was pushing what, but in this case you are definitely trying some momentum building and are apparently waiting for it to get some legs before actually jumping on yourself.

[Ectomancer]

Back up, read my last 2 posts, then give a response. It is definitely aimed at you. The first post has questions regarding your theory, the 2nd is an accusation that I'd like to hear you defend yourself against.

[Ectomancer]

My questions were equally tied in with Zach's, so it didn't phase me to see my name so many times from someone else, especially when Zwet kept neglecting his responses.

Zwet, your answers have been inadequate. My vote was withheld because I'm always concerned about running someone up the rope when they seem to hold strong convictions after night takes place. It gets me into the situation where I'm forced to wonder if something occurred the night before for this sudden opinion. Therein lies the rub. Would a cop or other role like a tracker just suddenly come out on Day 2 with a statement that is practically a claim to scum if they are actually town?
It doesn't make sense to me unless they are pulling the Goon sacrifice that would get a townie lynched today (due to their claim), another townie tonight, followed by their lynch on day 3.

That would setup (assuming no dob/block/etc and 3 scum) 2 scum and 4 town in Lylo day 4 and if we hit scum we are back in Lylo on Day 5. Not a good scene for us and a good return on a sacrifice for scum. Factor in the possibility of a counterclaim from town, thereby exposing a power role and there is good reasoning for them to try such a gambit.
I would advise any such player to hold their tongue if I've correctly anticipated his move.

vote Zwet

The only thing that makes sense to me is if you got a guilty investigation and felt it worth the trade of 1 town for 1 scum, hoping for a Doc block tonight and getting maybe a 2nd investigation for tomorrow or maybe even 2 if lucky. But your method makes no sense. I would either claim and reveal the guilty right off the bat, or keep completely quiet and try to guide the lynch in his direction today, but not this mystery proclamation where we've spent 2 pages focused on you.

[Ectomancer]

I can see where the bussing theory is derived from, but it depends on three assumptions that need to be proven independently:

1. Zwet is scum
2. Nuwen is scum
3. Nuwen is currently pushing for Zwet's lynch

If 2 is assumed because 1 is assumed because 3 is predicted, the theory deteriorates.

It doesn't deteriorate, it was simply built on an unsound foundation. Plus, from the get go, even if 1 and 3 are true, it still does not directly correlate to 2 being true. For that, you have to go with analysis. Personally, I would have waited rather than giving the case for you bussing Zwet

until

Zwet actually gets lynched and turns up scum. Posting a case beforehand is almost a warning sign saying "Stop what you're doing before I really catch you doing something scummy".

[Ectomancer]

See? Spring is trying to get people to say this.

And are you saying tha specific cases are bad?

Whaaat? Spring has subliminal messages in his avatar?

Listen, your 5 point step still makes no sense. Why would a cop investigation on JereIC turning up innocent be so much more condemning than a NK'd Jere turning up town?

[Ectomancer]

Heh, no. WIFOM is when you have 2 equally likely outcomes to an event. I'm not certain how many games I've played, but I've got over 3000 posts (and I think some were lost a couple times when the server went thhppbbt). I've never played in a game with a Jester role. Nor would I care if there were. I refuse to consider that person 'winning' simply for being lynched, and if he believes he did, whatever. I'm pretty sure the game just keeps playing to see which group gets "2nd".

Anyhow, no way is this even close to a 50/50 proposition.

[Ectomancer]

House hunting, cleaning, painting etc during the coming weeks. Sporadic appearances are likely until I we find the one we like and move.

[Ectomancer]

I've seen no argument as of yet to change my mind.

[Ectomancer]

He just said he had a case, not that it was a good one.

[Ectomancer]

@Ectomancer, I'd like to know precisely what you mean in your last post.

Hm... I still have no change of position. Just checking in. (

Also, how can Spring have a real defense to a

joke case

based on wifom and conjecture?

)

He just said he had a case, not that it was a good one.

[Ectomancer]

Made an offer on a home today which means my time is taken for the next few weeks fixing the old one and then moving, putting kids into new schools, etc, etc, etc. Needing a replacement here.