Mini 701 - That's a Wrap! (Game Over)

[don_johnson]

I really can't believe it. This should have been a town win. Night three, both scum teams know what is going on, where the other is. Why didn't they shoot each other?

i thought fix was sk and spring was town until fix turned up rb. if i had not targeted spyrex i was going to nk TDC thinking he was an opposing godfather. the idea of a forensic expert actually seemed as though it might fit into a set up with two mafia. so yeah, i figured "i'm mafia, kill the cop". i didn't think the other mafia would target me because then we both lose. i only voted SL to keep in character. i almost claimed vig, but i'm glad i didn't. it seemed like a good time to take a back seat.

replacing in at 20 pages or so was ridiculously hard as scum. i really didn't think we'd get anywhere near endgame.

[TDC]

Vanilla definitely was the right claim for you. spring should've claimed the same. That would've at least left the possibility of me lynching you and not her (though I doubt I would have no-lynched under any circumstance). Maybe her claiming mafia right when the day started could've swayed me, too.. but I doubt it.

[mykonian]

At least that explains the TERRIBLE VOLKAN LYNCH. Seriously. All 4 scum and the masons. If this was a 12 player game I think we'd have lynched down that line and won.

did I really break the setup by counterclaiming and giving the other scumteam its reason to vote the most protown player in the game?

anyway, town also needs to question itself how it can be that three of the four powerroles are already outed day 1, and that day one didn't end up in scumteam a attacking scumteam 2. Better playing masons could have saved a lot.

[SpyreX]

Well, partially.

The fact that he got lynched put enough suspicion on ALL THE SCUM IN THE GAME that they had the plausible "too scummy for a NK" going to explain the no kills. Further, it helped focus the death on the almost minority town left.

But, enough ranting. General thoughts:

@Mod:

I think you did a good job being the mod. The vote counts and everything else were consistent.

However, seriously, I think this setup had some balance issues.

Also, personally, I take umbrage at the "Sane Cop" PM (and not just cop) and there being a GF in the game. In the future, if you're going to tell me my results are 100% confirmed - they better be.

@Masons:

Seriously. Look back at the case you helped build and let all the scum jump on on volkan. That still hurts the brain - and I dont know if any one scum would have been able to take the initiative and do it without the all but confirmed town climbing on as well.

Remember, masons out of all the common power roles are both one of the weakest and the strongest - depending on how its used. This game illustrated the bad way.

@Scums:

Simple fakeclaims usually are better, especially in a mini normal. I think if spring had claimed vanilla TDC would have had a much harder time deciding which scumteam to lose to.

@Town:

Overall, we fragmented some day 1 - and aside from that the game was on rails. I think we did a decent job. TDC felt town, Ecto felt town, Volkan was so town it made my eyes bleed that we lynched him.

[Rage]

- I personally do think different groups of mafia should be revealed as such, the revealing of "Mafia (Anti-Town)" was specifically misleading.

I'm not sure how I could handle that. Should I have named them differently, and revealed that upon their deaths?

- I think you should've posted this "only roles from this wiki page can be in the game" somewhere in this thread, too. That probably would've prevented two scum from claiming impossible roles.

I completely agree.

Rage: Out of curiosity: What was the 10th player you forgot about in the signup thread? Did this have 2 mafia 1 SK initially, or did it have one townie less?

I just miscounted. I always had the idea to use two mafia groups.

same counts for scumteam 2's late rule that one must send in the kill

That rule always existed, for both teams.

Looking back on this game, the setup was indeed a little lopsided for scum. I thought there would be at least some cross-kills to indicate a second anti-town faction earlier in the game. I will definitely try to balance a game more fairly next time, and rely less on the possibility that scum would kill scum. I think I've also got to strengthen the rules I got and make sure there are less loopholes!

[Ectomancer]

I enjoyed the game, though it was frustrating at time. 2 mafia groups explains that handily. I also thought the mod did a good job...except on the setup. I mean seriously, town mislynched on day 1 only and lost and 4 votes were from scum, with only 6 needed to lynch.

[mykonian]

can you imagine how organized scum was united by a common enemy. Vollkan was scary for every scum player here.

[SpyreX]

And apparently for the masons too!

[mykonian]

so, be honest, if vollkan never got into trouble, both scumteams would have had to gamble at their NK, the lynch would probably have ended with spring or DJ, because town was quite organized. It's not like this was impossible to win.

in the end, scum plays suboptimal, because when they played optimally, they would have killed each other. Because for both, they would win it for sure if the other killed a towny. DJ had no need to kill the cop, and could see that the other scumteam would have been (unfair) if that one consisted out of {roleblocker, godfather}, so spring must be the other scum.

spring was more likely to make the mistake, because the cop threatened to investigate her. She also had a small disadvantage, because she didn't know what the other scum would be: TDC could still be a godfather.

So that she would have killed TDC would not have been so wrong (gambled and lost), but this way, by killing the cop, she could only win if the other scum killed the other towny. The same thing that happened if she gambled wrong.

Conclusion: even after this, after everything went wrong day 1, town should have won night 3.

[mrfixij]

I actually wouldn't have minded leaving vollkan in the game. I knew myk was scum and voll was doc though, so I had to lynch doc.

[springlullaby]

Also TDC: that meta pissed me the hell off.

I was maf RB, which isn't a standard role by that wiki link.

Lack of miller to hint at godfather also handicapped town.

Game needed to be bigger to justify 2 maf. 11 or 12 maybe. 2 mafia in 10 is balanced, 2/2/6 is dead town.

And on a sidenote: spring that was a TERRIBLE claim. Not to say that mine was good, but it was passable.

Heh buddy, my primary objective wasn't to make myself look good, but to save your ass as you were the roleblocker. If I could have convinced the other mafia to doubt Spyrex, that would have been ace, but saving my roleblocker was good enough. It almost worked too as TDC and Spyrex bought it line and sinker before don_johnson's malicious intervention.

Though I miscalculated, I thought the other team had a roleblocker, hence I tried to save mine so we could get at least a draw in endgame.

Had I known the other team didn't have a roleblocker, I wouldn't have bothered and bussed your ass to hell.

I have to say, jailkeeper is a terrible claim, it translates automatically to RB in people's mind. Like vig and SK.

I disagree on this game being unbalanced, it just was very swingy, if the doc hadn't been lynched D1, it would have made stuff very difficult for everyone.

I had an absolute hoot lynching Vollkan, kuddo scums.

[springlullaby]

- I think you should've posted this "only roles from this wiki page can be in the game" somewhere in this thread, too. That probably would've prevented two scum from claiming impossible roles.

I completely agree.

Yeah, if I had one complaint to make, it would have been this.

[mykonian]

lets say that you were a great team.

*hides*

[springlullaby]

I am going to rub my belly some: Day 1 I said Sl, Dj, myk as third and fix was next on my list.

At least that explains the TERRIBLE VOLKAN LYNCH. Seriously. All 4 scum and the masons. If this was a 12 player game I think we'd have lynched down that line and won.

Yeah, nice scumhunting, but I think you hurt yourself by overheating on me. It made you look tunneled, and my job at playing pissed off town easier. Your case on me is I think what made Ectomancer and TDC pussy out of voting me. It made you look town but put you in the 'questionable judgement' case for the duration of D1.

[springlullaby]

lets say that you were a great team.

*hides*

Lol, the irony in this is that I made 'misplaced post' argument on Vollkan especially for you, thinking that you were town and you would defend me on it because of the mini we were both in. You did, but that kinda backfired when you turned up scum.

[springlullaby]

I really can't believe it. This should have been a town win. Night three, both scum teams know what is going on, where the other is. Why didn't they shoot each other?

i thought fix was sk and spring was town until fix turned up rb. if i had not targeted spyrex i was going to nk TDC thinking he was an opposing godfather. the idea of a forensic expert actually seemed as though it might fit into a set up with two mafia. so yeah, i figured "i'm mafia, kill the cop". i didn't think the other mafia would target me because then we both lose. i only voted SL to keep in character. i almost claimed vig, but i'm glad i didn't. it seemed like a good time to take a back seat.

replacing in at 20 pages or so was ridiculously hard as scum. i really didn't think we'd get anywhere near endgame.

Yeah, I didn't try to convince town that I wasn't scum. In my mind if I had a person to convince to switch the vote off me or off mrfixij, it was the other mafia team because you would be more inclined to believe in 2 mafia.

fixij and I cooperated really badly. I blame it all on fixij though, panicking and softclaiming day 1, then claiming scum is baaaad idea :p

No, seriously, fix had the right idea about killing spyrex N2 and played pretty ok. That vote switch toward Vollkan was very smooth, I clapped interiorly when I saw it. I think you were just a little too impressed by Spyrex' play. But you see, undermining sure as bull townie is where the fun in being scum is at.

[springlullaby]

spring was more likely to make the mistake, because the cop threatened to investigate her. She also had a small disadvantage, because she didn't know what the other scum would be: TDC could still be a godfather.

Bah, you see, I just didn't anticipate the other team not having a roleblocker.

Which is pretty dumb of me because I specifically asked the mod to confirm that in case of mutual RB, no action would happen.

This meant that if the other mafia had a blocker they would have blocked mrfixij before killing ortolan. Hence Spyrex' wouldn't have been blocked.

It just didn't hit me, and I'm kicking myself now, because my Spyrex kill was a throw away kill. Had I killed TDC, it could have still meant a win for us. Or was the Godfather NK immune?


Anyway, neat lil game, gg scum, see ya all.

[vollkan]

Good game all; I kept reading throughout.

Including my gut read on ixfij, I had all the scum picked out on D1, and I had Spyrex picked as town.

My lynch was a perfect example of why town shouldn't tolerate subjectivity. I am henceforth blacklisting the phrases "doesn't seem genuine" and "unclear perspective".

As for the misplaced post thing...*vomit*

[springlullaby]

Good game all; I kept reading throughout.

Including my gut read on ixfij, I had all the scum picked out on D1, and I had Spyrex picked as town.

My lynch was a perfect example of why town shouldn't tolerate subjectivity. I am henceforth blacklisting the phrases "doesn't seem genuine" and "unclear perspective".

As for the misplaced post thing...*vomit*

Heh, my favorite day was D1. Seriously, your argumentation was turning masochistic toward the end of the day. You can't imagine how much fun I had when I announced in thread that I wouldn't read your posts any more and *knowing* that I would get away with it.

[orangepenguin]

Ah! I actually thought we were going to end up winning the game. It is partly my fault for lynching vollkan day 1, instead of mykonian, but at that point, I was so confused, and didn't know who to believe. I was also hoping that I was going to be NK-ed instead of ort, since ort was doing a really good job in this game, whereas I pretty much sucked. Sorry. Luckily, both scum teams thought I was a good lynch, sadly enough. You would think one of them would attempt to go for ort, since he was better for the town.

[ortolan]

good game

I was reading also and I just thought it was a 3 man mafia faction with dj and later sl (after that fakeclaim, LOL) as the 3rd mafia member right until the end of the game (I assumed they somehow got an extra kill when their first player died, for some reason).

But yes, unless there were cross-kills if town even mislynched once they were pretty much screwed.

I obviously did tunnel on vollkan day one and for that I am sorry.

[mykonian]

Ah! I actually thought we were going to end up winning the game. It is partly my fault for lynching vollkan day 1, instead of mykonian, but at that point, I was so confused, and didn't know who to believe. I was also hoping that I was going to be NK-ed instead of ort, since ort was doing a really good job in this game, whereas I pretty much sucked. Sorry. Luckily, both scum teams thought I was a good lynch, sadly enough. You would think one of them would attempt to go for ort, since he was better for the town.

I think that both teams had the idea they were losing . So while orto was clearly going to wrong way, he also looked the best. And if it isn't going good, why not trow in some extra wifom?

[TDC]

- I personally do think different groups of mafia should be revealed as such, the revealing of "Mafia (Anti-Town)" was specifically misleading.

I'm not sure how I could handle that. Should I have named them differently, and revealed that upon their deaths?

I think that is the usual solution. Like "Sicilian Mafia (Anti-Town)" and "Calabrian Mafia (Anti-Town)" or whatever.
Even then we would've needed luck, but at least we would've had an idea.

[TDC]

Your case on me is I think what made Ectomancer and TDC pussy out of voting me.

Yeah, this is probably true. Didn't think of him as scummy for pushing the case, but I didn't think it was as convincing as he thought either (especially this whole self-vote-contradiction thing..).

[ortolan]

it's quite funny also that people were concluding from the fact that there was an obvious doctor fakeclaimer that me and OP were telling the truth (because they were assuming there could be no more than two mafia players, LoL), and I insisted there were likely to be three.

I guess the masons were partly to blame for the lack of crosskills, having claimed we made obvious confirmed town targets which decreased the likelihood of them even contemplating targeting someone who would turn out to be from the other scum group.