Mini 720 - SPQR Mafia {Game Over}

[charter]

Is there anything important being said between Glork/destructo? I've just skipped over all of it because it seemed to be based off meta and I'm not going to read any other games.

[Glork]

Is there anything important being said between Glork/destructo? I've just skipped over all of it because it seemed to be based off meta and I'm not going to read any other games.

To elaborate on the "do your homework" point. Here's the way I'm looking at it.


You presented a terrible meta argument and asked for additional examples. I presented two very reasonable examples, but I get the feeling that you asked for examples

specifically with the intent to separate them from your lone "glorkscum defending people" examples in Mars 3

, which would much more likely come from scum than from town. I think that a protown player would be far more likely to go "these circumstances aren't exactly the same, but I can see parallels which could feasably explain his behavior here."

[charter]

Ok, so no then.
Lets keep voting dahill people. Maybe then he will say something.

[charter]

Good lord. Look at dahill's recent posting. He's made like four contentless posts in here in the past nearly two weeks, and TONS of posts in other games/places on the site.

Clearly he is trying to hope something comes of these new arguments and people forget about him.

[dahill1]

Dahill - when you voted for xtox in 173, did you see Yos's vote (Post 170, 3 minutes earlier) before placing your vote or not?

nope i had pretty much stopped reading after seeing xtoxm's comment and voted him, then continued on

That last post was me as well.

Also to [dahill], what did you seriously think the town would gain out of the Coriolanus-alt discussion? I'm not asking for an essay, even dot points would be enough for now.

des

i figured if he was an alt which seemed likely, then we could possibly dig up meta if he ever came under suspicion. and as he later admitted he made the alt for that exact reason, to avoid being meta'd

Good lord. Look at dahill's recent posting. He's made like four contentless posts in here in the past nearly two weeks, and TONS of posts in other games/places on the site.

Clearly he is trying to hope something comes of these new arguments and people forget about him.

nice misrepresentation, but as i said earlier i am having trouble getting into this game. to be honest, i'm just not as interested in it. not saying i won't continue to play, but it's just that i don't find it as interesting

[OhGodMyLife]

Vote Count:

6 to lynch.

dahill1: 2 (charter, Tuberkulos)
El Destructo: 2 (Incognito, Glork)
Yosarian2: 1 (Erratus Apathos)
Coriolanus: 1 (El Destructo)
Erratus Apathos: 1 (Yosarian2)
Glork: 1 (Coriolanus)

Not Voting: 2 (dahill1, Assmaster)

[El Destructo]

EBWOP: I am extremely interested to see what Elmo has to say about this entire discussion.

I actually stated what I did pretty much entirely to see how you'd react. Like I said, I didn't have any concrete reasons at the time; I was mostly going on fairly vague gut/meta, hoping to (if I'm right) get it down to specifics once I'd been through Des' notes, as well as using your reaction to see if I was right or not. Generously, I'm about halfway done with the notes; I'm a little less suspicious of you now, although there are some oddities that I'm curious about. I also like to "just do something" in a game, I frequently I need to interact with people a bit in order to feel them out. Now predictably, I disagree with your response to me as regards Patetheric, but I sense that we'll also have a contest on who can get the last word in if I start going down that route here (you seemed awfully pissed about it). I'll post it if you want, though.

About Des and you recently, I have to be a bit careful because I know Des is town, so there's a sort of "OMGUS by proxy" to be avoided. And obviously I've only been skimming it. I do loosely agree with what he's saying in general, that scum are more likely to defend townies purely to be seen to be defending them, at times when it's uncalled for. In terms of specifics, a quick examination of 335.. eh, I don't really agree. At least I weigh it far less strongly than he appears to, it seemed far less pronounced. I am more interested in the difference between your treatment of Xtoxm, it seems odd you would sort-of defend dahill who didn't get lynched and not Xtoxm who did, when you've defended him previously - although I cannot remember if it was for similar behaviour, it's quite a while since I read that game.

I didn't like the way you voted for him much, really, it seemed very.. OMGUSsy, in the neutral sense of the term. And my impression was you weren't like that as town (or at all, really), I could be wrong here. But I don't really see why as town you would think he couldn't be misguided in the way he has; the incomplete sample, I think, is just down to games he has to hand, for example he was in weasel mafia and mith's game with you. Specifically, I'm dead set against "you only used X games as meta, therefore you're trying to reach a conclusion" (I believe this is roughly what you said, correct me if I'm wrong) as a viable tell.. I don't know how much depth you expect him to go into in the space of time in which he's gone from reading the thread to talking with you (I think ~24h). I think there's a contradiction between your assertion that he'd have "the full works" ready if he were town and the time since he/we replaced in; I don't know how many games you can read in that time, but I rather doubt that. How do you propose he go and find a large number of instances where you defended someone, anyway? Large enough to be representative, I mean. That's a lot of reading. I really don't understand the "ahead of time" comment at all (from GlorkTown).

I am actually quite a bit more interested in Yos2 than you after rereading and looking at Des's notes, I've done one of my patented 180s, I think. Oh well. Hopefully changing reads apon going over the game in detail and discussing it is a good sign, haha.

Incog, I would say that the scum in BSG were less skilled than pretty much any possible scumgroup in this game, hence the degree of disagreement between us. It's quite an interesting experience, knowing we have the same role.

Yos: Why exactly was Xtoxm supposed to be scum?
Charter: Why is Glork not scum?

Elmo

[Yosarian2]

That last post was me as well.

Also to Glork, what did you seriously think the town would gain out of the Coriolanus-alt discussion? I'm not asking for an essay, even dot points would be enough for now.

des

Actually, I'd like Yos, Incog and dahill to answer that instead.

(shrug) Ok.

-Finding out if someone is an experenced player or not, finding out who they are so they can be meta'd, and similar things, are very useful things to know later.

-I think the pressure me and Glork put on him, and the responses he made to that pressure, helped me get a handle on him, on how he responds, and to get a feel for him. This was true even before I found out who he actually is.

-That early, on day 1, I think getting any kind of game-relevent discussion going is helpful to the town.

[Yosarian2]

I am actually quite a bit more interested in Yos2 than you after rereading and looking at Des's notes, I've done one of my patented 180s, I think. Oh well. Hopefully changing reads apon going over the game in detail and discussing it is a good sign, haha.

Uh...really? That's odd, and actually takes away from a minor possible town-tell I thought I had spotted from your duo.

Yos: Why exactly was Xtoxm supposed to be scum?

Elmo

Why did I suspect him?

1. Incredibly anti-town actions; claiming vanillia for no reason being the biggest one.

2. Multiple OMGUS attacks.

3. After OMGUSing both me and Glork for suspecting him, he made the comment "everyone I suspect is voting for me", which seemed like a really bad "oh the scum are out to get me" defense. (Which, by the way, is why I mentioned on day 1 that I didn't think it was likely Xtoxm and Glork were scum together.)

4. After I called his behavior anti-town, he responded with an incredibly illogical and scummy comment, saying that I "knew he was town", and voted me.

5. He the refused to explain himself, at all, even under threat of lynch. (I actually did say to him that he could either answer my questions or die. I'll admit I didn't really expect him to die rather then answer my question, but that's the risk you take when you pressure someone...)

6. Before Glork hammered him, he actually admittted he was delibratly evading my questions and refusing to answer them, proving that I was reading him right and he was, in fact, delibratly being evasive. Even know that I know he was pro-town, I still can not understand or even imagine why a pro-town person would do that; the only reason I can think of for refusing to answer questions about your motive would be if your motive was actually scummy and you don't think you can hide that if you explain.

[charter]

Good lord. Look at dahill's recent posting. He's made like four contentless posts in here in the past nearly two weeks, and TONS of posts in other games/places on the site.

Clearly he is trying to hope something comes of these new arguments and people forget about him.

nice misrepresentation, but as i said earlier i am having trouble getting into this game. to be honest, i'm just not as interested in it. not saying i won't continue to play, but it's just that i don't find it as interesting

It isn't a misrep. Anyone can check your posts and see that.

Charter: Why is Glork not scum?

Eh, I see him as being completely unhelpful, but I don't think he's scum.

[Glork]

I do loosely agree with what he's saying in general, that scum are more likely to defend townies purely to be seen to be defending them, at times when it's uncalled for.

So the assumption here is that Dahill is in fact protown?

[El Destructo]

No assumptions. The basis of my entire point was that a defence of another player is anti-town (in most situations). That's where it all starts. The first motivations that come to mind for scum to do that are either to buddy up to town/get town cred for defending a townie or to cover a buddy's back. I'm still not sure which is more likely in this case.

I'm going to give you my take of Ether's case on dahill1 later tonight. Right now, I'm doing some catching up with Elmo's notes.

[El Destructo]

^ That was me.

Incog, that Newbie game was from a long time ago. I do think that metagaming can be useful. I'm not vehemently opposed to using it to get reads of players anymore, except in cases of things like lurking. I recognise that most players have a lot of consistency in how they play. I mean, even in that Newbie game you linked to I said you seemed townish really early on replacing in and accepted that it was probably based on my past experience with you. So even when I was saying "metagaming is useless!" I was actually using it without thinking. Patrick's comments in that first metagaming thread had a lot to do with me accepting that.

There not much else for me to say on this topic and I think you were really missing the point of what I was doing as well, which is curious.

I have a question for you though.
What do you think it means that Elmo and I would have different reads of the same players?

des

[El Destructo]

So the assumption here is that Dahill is in fact protown?

No, just that you have a motive (as scum) to defend him in that way if Dahill is town; WIFOM aside, I can't see it being pro-town to defend scum, either. And I agree with Des that town are less likely to mount "uncalled for" defences of people, especially when they're unsure about them.

The main point seemed to be that you particularly have a tendancy to do that more as scum than town, in his experience. I can't comment usefully on that, I mean I think Weasel Mafia alone is 100+ pages. So I can only really comment on the specifics, which didn't seem like you did anything unusual to me - but I suppose it wouldn't. I don't really disagree with him, I suppose, but absent the examples he's talking about, I don't see the event viewed purely in the context of

this game

to be suspicious.

Now, it's a small sample size, but he's using what is available to him; like I said, I just don't think it's practical to gather as much meta as you'd prefer, and I find even a small sample is frequently helpful.

Do you currently think Elmo is scum?

Yos: What do you think about Glork at the moment?
Incog: Hi. Why're you focussing on Des? I feel left out ._.

Elmo

[Yosarian2]

Yos: What do you think about Glork at the moment?

I'll probably have a better answer for this once he answers my questions about his attacks on Simenoon, and about his vote for me today. At this moment, I'm really not sure.

[El Destructo]

The Contradiction

for voting assmaster with seemingly no reason,

and i found it strange (scummy strange) that he didn't even really comment on xtoxm.

Terrible.

Ether points to Dahill voting Tuberkulos "for voting assmaster with seemingly no reason". She comments that it's "terrible", linking to a post of his from a Mafia Discussion thread where he seems to be saying that he believes that "voting with seemingly no reason" isn't scummy in itself and can actually be useful.

It is clear to me that the contradiction Ether pointed out is that dahill appears to have voted for Tuberkulos for a reason he previously said he didn't actually believe was scummy in MD. Simple.

The Flailing

[quote="dahill1, Post 145""]meh. i was merely citing it as one of the opposing viewpoints to the situation. i wasn't necessarily agreeing with it, and i have questioned when people do this in other games iirc. i dislike using info outside of mafia games in general, so i don't consider this telling of any particular alignment.[/quote]When I read this, I thought dahill was making shit up. Quoting someone saying "stating "X is scum" and giving no real reason why" in a "5 things I hate in Mafia" thread then immediately following it with the sentence, "Take it away, glork!" and a huge quote of a player (Glork) laying out in great detail why unexplained votes can be awesome does not give me the impression that dahill1 was just posting it as a diplomatic citation of an opposing viewpoint for the sake of hearty debate. Hence, dahill claiming that that

was

what he was doing sounded like bullshit.

His next sentence, about not liking info outside a game being use, seemed desperate. In context, I assume he was trying to say something like, "even if that was what I said, I shouldn't be held accountable for it in this game." The only reason I can see for us to ignore what we read him saying in Mafia Discussion is if he actually

lies

about his opinions on theory there, which is, again, bullshit. This last point in particular, made it look like dahill was flailing and trying to deflect attention from the contradiction Ether pointed out in any way he could.

So, it wasn't a "bad" argument. By my read, it was pretty reasonable.

---

Now that that's done, I'm going to be posting a case on Yos. I'd do it tonight, but it'll probably take me too long and I need to make sure I don't sleep at like 5am again. I think Elmo and I are more or less in agreement about it but we'll each probably have a few different things to say.

With less than a week to deadline I'm worried about there being as many wagons going as there are. I think dahill

may

be scum, but the jury is still out on that. I (des) might be willing to vote him to ensure a lynch, not exactly sure how Elmo feels about it, but I really think we're FAR more likely to hit scum with Yos.

Unvote
Vote: Yosarian2

My half of the case will be posted tomorrow.

des

[dahill1]

posting this in all games

V/LA this weekend until maybe Monday

[Yosarian2]

I'm going to be posting a case on Yos.

Bring it.

[charter]

I'd vote Yos at deadline if no will vote dahill. Why will no one vote dahill?

[Yosarian2]

More to the point, why aren't more people voting Erratus Apathos? He is so obv scum if you just read his posts, that I can't understand why more people aren't voting him.

[Coriolanus]

unvote
vote dahill

my glork vote was an attempt to see what he would look like after a harsh attack, but charter and dahill kind of ruined it.
also, charter is right. dahill, that is not what a misrepresentation is. And even if it was, charter's statement was correct. And failure to "get into the game" is a reason for contentless posts, but not an excuse, and not one that can be independently verified.

i also agree with charter sentiments re: yosarian. i will too switch my vote to him.

i admit i haven't read through the elmo/glork argument, because it's long, but i will soon enough.

[Coriolanus]

in the future please don't write that many words.

[charter]

More to the point, why aren't more people voting Erratus Apathos? He is so obv scum if you just read his posts, that I can't understand why more people aren't voting him.

Deflecting for dahill now too are we?

in the future please don't write that many words.

Yes, at least include a summary of your posts el destructo. I just skim them.

[Yosarian2]

More to the point, why aren't more people voting Erratus Apathos? He is so obv scum if you just read his posts, that I can't understand why more people aren't voting him.

Deflecting for dahill now too are we?

Um...no, I don't think Dahill is scum, like I've said about a dozen times.

You might be perfectly happy blindly following a bandwagon on me, despite who is pushing it and the fact that none of them have even tried to give any kind of reason, but persoanlly, I'd rather lynch scum. You know, EA.

[El Destructo]

charter already said that he was suspicious of you, so there's no reasons for you to say he'd be blindly following a wagon on you.

I'm going to write that case now.

des