Mini 730 - Hard Nights in the City - OVER!

[Megatheory]

the only way for you to

know

that the wagon was scum driven 100% is if you are scum. ip's post was terrible. scum may have been on the wagon. scum was probably on the wagon. but

definitely

? only scum could know for sure. this is not the first time you have chosen your words poorly. i suggest you start proofreading your posts if you are town.

So you think a typical town would run up penguin to L-1 in that situation without any scum voting for him?

[canadianbovine]

CB: Do you think that it matters if we lynch a

powerrole

Day 1? Your sudden agreement with Porkens (and I'm only somewhat okay with his position here because I've played with his town meta) and your sudden desicion to vote IP coincides beautifully with IP's Tracker claim. Consider that

noted

.

canadianbovine: are you aware that ip has claimed a power role? i still find him scummy, i'm just not sure if you noticed he claimed or not. your post didn't seem to mention it. also, please stop saying the day 1 lynch doesn't matter. it does. yes, sheer odds point to a mislynch, but there is a huge difference between the best lynch, a good lynch, a not so good lynch, and the absolute worst lynch.

omg! i totally didn't realize that IP had claimed power role. oops!

unvote

porkens has been a little jumpy...

You know what, don't even bother answering. Lynch this man.

vote: Nameless

vote: insanguin I think it's time for a claim, pengy.

i agree with him about Day 1. I don't think who is lynched day 1 really matters, for the begininng of Day 2 and peoples "reactions" to the nightkills can be a good source for scumhunting. And i mean one townie gone isn't necessarily a bad thing. Unless, of course, there is an abnormal amount of scum/multiple familes. But granted this is a mini game, and only 12 players.

vote: insane penguin.

This is exactly what i meant by digging yourself a hole...because of your large post, you had to respond to all 11 players, and in those 11 responses you revealed more, and mucked up.

The more I think about this post, the worse it gets. bovine votes for penguin, so that would indicate that he thinks penguin is scum. He says penguin dug himself a hole and mucked up by revealing more. I can't imagine why a townie would ever say this to scum.

Is bovine using Porkens' excuse as a cover? I've looked over his posts and I'm not seeing anything to indicate he had this opinion up until this post.

FOS canadianbovine

do you get my logic behind him digging a hole? sure its a little heterodox but what i was saying is that because he was posting this huge post which would require many follow up posts would of been a bad decision if he was scum.

[Megatheory]

do you get my logic behind him digging a hole? sure its a little heterodox but what i was saying is that because he was posting this huge post which would require many follow up posts would of been a bad decision if he was scum.

It doesn't explain your vote in any kind of protown way.

[don_johnson]

the only way for you to

know

that the wagon was scum driven 100% is if you are scum. ip's post was terrible. scum may have been on the wagon. scum was probably on the wagon. but

definitely

? only scum could know for sure. this is not the first time you have chosen your words poorly. i suggest you start proofreading your posts if you are town.

So you think a typical town would run up penguin to L-1 in that situation without any scum voting for him?

typical is an extremely subjective term. short answer, yes. ip's post was horrible. do i believe there was no scum on the wagon? no, but i accept the possibility. i'm just saying to choose your words carefully here. if ip

is

scum, then he could have pretty readily been sandbagged by 6 eager townies while his scum partner(s) faded into the background. smart scum isn't going to push a wagon it doesn't need to.

[canadianbovine]

do you get my logic behind him digging a hole? sure its a little heterodox but what i was saying is that because he was posting this huge post which would require many follow up posts would of been a bad decision if he was scum.

It doesn't explain your vote in any kind of protown way.

i also felt the way he reacted to the votes was scummy. i had even looked at the post where he had claimed, but it never clicked in my head that that was his claim. i thought it was just him continuing on. This is my first non newbie game and I wasn't aware of a role called tracker. this and my support of how a day 1 townie lynch shouldn't really be worried too much about [basically what Porkens said]. Thats why i voted him.

[don_johnson]

do you get my logic behind him digging a hole? sure its a little heterodox but what i was saying is that because he was posting this huge post which would require many follow up posts would of been a bad decision if he was scum.

if it was a bad decision for him to make as scum, then why would you think he was scum? its wifomic, but you're making more of a case for him to be poor playing town, than scum. that is, of course, if i am reading this right.

[canadianbovine]

do you get my logic behind him digging a hole? sure its a little heterodox but what i was saying is that because he was posting this huge post which would require many follow up posts would of been a bad decision if he was scum.

if it was a bad decision for him to make as scum, then why would you think he was scum? its wifomic, but you're making more of a case for him to be poor playing town, than scum. that is, of course, if i am reading this right.

i thought he could of been scum making himself appear townie

What I meant about Penguin digging himself a hole is how he decided to ask 3-5 questions to everyone, and he's going to have to post more and more because now he has discussion with everyone. And the more he posts, the more WIFOM and ironic he gets.

The consistent posting he now had to do would cost him for he would continue to contradict himself and sound more WIFOM-ic. kind of like whats happening to me.

[Plum]

Crud, I let my computer eat my hard-earned post. Let's try to rebuild and reconstruct here . . .

the only way for you to

know

that the wagon was scum driven 100% is if you are scum. ip's post was terrible. scum may have been on the wagon. scum was probably on the wagon. but

definitely

? only scum could know for sure. this is not the first time you have chosen your words poorly. i suggest you start proofreading your posts if you are town.

So you think a typical town would run up penguin to L-1 in that situation without any scum voting for him?

In my mind, scum driven =/= scum are on the bandwagon. They may often coincide, but my defenitions are two seperate concepts: Scum driven means that scum are among those most pressuring the one being bandwagoned, often are early voters on the bandwagon, and are the ones encouraging and pushing the rest of the players to lynch the bandwagonee. A bandwagon with scum on it can be anywhere from scum-driven to a bandwagon with one lone lurker scum's vote on it from half a week ago when he last posted. So according to the defenitions I use, is it likely that scum are on then IP wagon/were on it at its hight? Yes, quite likely, though not certain. Were the people who were

driving

the IP wagon scum? It's a useful question, one I plan to persue as soon as I finish rewriting the dratted post.

I will say that I agree with you, Mega, that the 'primary reason' behind suspicions against IP (the 'he voted the player he ranked third scummiest) isn't a major scumtell; I found that his reactions (especially that shameless WIFOM defense he used, which was, for me, the last straw that made me want to vote him), however, to be fairly strong scumtells, especially for this point in the game.

do you get my logic behind him digging a hole? sure its a little heterodox but what i was saying is that because he was posting this huge post which would require many follow up posts would of been a bad decision if he was scum.

if it was a bad decision for him to make as scum, then why would you think he was scum? its wifomic, but you're making more of a case for him to be poor playing town, than scum. that is, of course, if i am reading this right.

DonJ, no need to bring in any WIFOM. In retrospect (hindsight's always 20/20 ) it was a stupid thing for hypothetical scum-IP to do, because it led to him reacting in scummy ways to the responses he got. The fact that he did something which now appears to be disadvantageous for scum is itself a nulltell. His reactions remain, at least in my mind, scumtells.

do you get my logic behind him digging a hole? sure its a little heterodox but what i was saying is that because he was posting this huge post which would require many follow up posts would of been a bad decision if he was scum.

if it was a bad decision for him to make as scum, then why would you think he was scum? its wifomic, but you're making more of a case for him to be poor playing town, than scum. that is, of course, if i am reading this right.

i thought he could of been scum making himself appear townie

Wait, what? See above analysis. No need for WIFOM like this from either DonJ or CB. It's heck to wade through it, meaningless, and the discussion is easily explained without it, as above.

What I meant about Penguin digging himself a hole is how he decided to ask 3-5 questions to everyone, and he's going to have to post more and more because now he has discussion with everyone. And the more he posts, the more WIFOM and ironic he gets.

The consistent posting he now had to do would cost him for he would continue to contradict himself and sound more WIFOM-ic. kind of like whats happening to me.

Yes, rather like that.

[don_johnson]

yeah, sorry. i was just trying to make sense of what was being said.

[Juls]

I am doing a thorough study of the conversation because clearly I am not conveying myself very well. I want to really formulate my thoughts. I am on about page 3. Unfortunately, I have to study now and I won't be back until tomorrow night late. If I don't get anything up tomorrow I definately will sometime Friday.

[Atronach]

Do you think it's highly likely that penguin is town? Can we confirm if he is really a tracker?

This has been on my mind as well. I don't know a way of confirming other then letting IP investigate someone tonight and then seeing what we can do about verifying his results.

In fact, I don't think this a bad idea at all. Look at it this way: IP investigates someone in secret tonight. If he gets lucky and finds scum, we can lynch them. (Needless to say if turns out to have been lying we can take that as suitable proof that IP is not to be trusted). If he finds town, that doesn't mean that we haven't learned something valuable. If he gets lynched or targeted later and turns out to have really been a tracker, then we'll have a confirmed townie or two.

[Porkens]

I've got no real reason to believe penguin is scum. In fact, the scummiest things he has done, in my opinion, has been since his wagon fell apart. But, even these are moot.

Naturally, the game will have a tracker if there is no cop. So unless someone wants to CC it, I think IP is clear.

unvote

[insanepenguin02]

In fact, I don't think this a bad idea at all. Look at it this way: IP investigates someone in secret tonight. If he gets lucky and finds scum, we can lynch them. (Needless to say if turns out to have been lying we can take that as suitable proof that IP is not to be trusted). If he finds town, that doesn't mean that we haven't learned something valuable. If he gets lynched or targeted later and turns out to have really been a tracker, then we'll have a confirmed townie or two.

I think having me investigate somebody this first night is a great idea. Then I can try to prove that I am who I say I am.

To all - I agree that I made some major mistakes at the start of this game. In the words of others, I was digging myself a hole. I will get to answering as many questions as I can in the next day or so.

As of right now,

Unvote

to get a clearer idea of where scum lies.

[geraintm]

@ ger - So you say that D-1 lynches should pretty much be random and then you hope on the wagon on me? Honestly guys, you should look yourselves in the mirror and ask who the real hypocrites are...

no, i figure that because of knowledge mafia has, day one lynches get a worse % result that if the town decided to lynch randomly. Obv, no one does that though, kinda not fun

and i decided to vote for you because of your evasive claiming. wasn't hopping on a wagon, was deciding to vote for you for good reasons.

Unvote: Insanepenguin, Vote Juls

.
I've noted Juls doing some questionable things in previous posts and she's now about my second scummiest. Probably would like to get to a reread of her and perhaps Mega later. For now, I think that's a fine place to put my vote.

people already don't like people voting their thrid scummiest. now you are voting only your second...

You refused to claim unless you were voted for "good reasons," but that's not for you to decide. Apparently, the town has judged the reasons against you and found them good enough to put you at L-1. That's the appropriate time for you to claim, whether you like it or not. It's moot now since you've claimed, but I'm bringing it up because this action has done nothing but make me suspect you more.

basically quoting this to show this was why i voted for the penguin

I'm still not liking geraintm. His posts reek of unhelpful, low contributing scum. It might be early to make that judgment, but I definitely see a pattern forming.

sorry you get this feeling. no one really asks me anything though (i am not realyl involved in any of the major threads of the game), so i have to circle the discussion and not being online when otehrs are, i can't really get into a conversation so have to save my posts and reply to everything at once.

Post 170 to Canadian bovine

you can't accuse porkens of being jumpy and then yourself just vote for the person who he switched his vote to. if you think the penguin is vote worthy, bit much to jump on him for thinking and doing the same!

I will say that I agree with you, Mega, that the 'primary reason' behind suspicions against IP (the 'he voted the player he ranked third scummiest) isn't a major scumtell; I found that his reactions (especially that shameless WIFOM defense he used, which was, for me, the last straw that made me want to vote him), however, to be fairly strong scumtells, especially for this point in the game.

mien was the total evasiveness when called on to claim.

to penguin, how do you hope to prove you are a tracker if given a night to survive?

[Nameless]

Yeah, IP's not even trying to be helpful now. Given that he did put the effort into his series of questions and answers earlier I'm not inclined to believe he's an angsty townie. He dies comes deadline if nothing else major comes up.

Don doesn't find Porkens anti-town? Even though Porkens hasn't contributed really at all? That's being (mildly) suspiciously overgenerous.

Megatheory states there are no cops in this game (from flavour NPC kills). He also states that scum must be on IP's wagon. I find both these statements overly sure and dubious. And Mega, yeah I'm serious about that promise. It's not about whether IP is town or scum, it's about dissuading scum (and overeager townies) from cutting off discussion time in a constantly deadlined game.

Okay, seriously, people who think D1 doesn't matter are wrong. Discussion now is just as important as any other day, skilled townies can pick up on scummy actions just like any other day etc. Saying that one townie dead isn't necessarily is a bad thing (compared to stopping, thinking, and lynching scum) is just scummy. I'm looking at you, bovine.

Megatheory, WTF is up with your reason for fosing bovine. No, you're right, it's clearly impossible a townie would point out a scum had screwed up an revealed themselves ... ?

Either bovine is not reading the thread, or bovine is BSing. Going to go with BSing here,

FoS: canadianbovine

. Also, believe it or not, "consistent posting" is not an excuse for you to look scummy. -_-

Atronach, stop and think about that plan for two seconds. Tracker not equal cop. If IP is a tracker and targeted scum, the scum will just claim a powerrole. Or IP could target a powerrole, and they'll be forced to claim, so we're not going to know which from IP alone. Or IP could target a vanilla townie. Or IP could be scum and claim to have targeted a vanilla townie. Do you see where I'm going with this?

Oh Porkens, not you to. Even if we assumed the game had no cop that's not reason to assume there must be tracker, or that if there were and IP weren't they would they'd need to claim now. And it's GREAT to know you have no reason to believe IP is scum after putting him at L-1 and saying other cases had convinced you.

[Sarcasm]Oh, Pengion is admitting he made mistakes! Well, that's okay then. No, no, don't bother trying to explain them or providing any analysis you were asked for. We'll just believe you because you claimed and you are sorry.[/Sarcasm]

[Danchaofan]

v/la friday to saturday/sunday night.Not sure how that works out with regard to time zones, I'm in China FYI.
IP: any flavor on tracker?

Megatheory states there are no cops in this game (from flavour NPC kills). He also states that scum must be on IP's wagon. I find both these statements overly sure and dubious.

How/why is the first overly sure and dubious?

Unvote: Insanepenguin, Vote Juls

.
I've noted Juls doing some questionable things in previous posts and she's now about my second scummiest. Probably would like to get to a reread of her and perhaps Mega later. For now, I think that's a fine place to put my vote.

people already don't like people voting their thrid scummiest. now you are voting only your second...

Your scummiest has claimed powerrole with nothing to indicate that the role does not exist or that he is not what he claimed. Do you still intend to lynch?

[don_johnson]

Yeah, IP's not even trying to be helpful now. Given that he did put the effort into his series of questions and answers earlier I'm not inclined to believe he's an angsty townie. He dies comes deadline if nothing else major comes up.

i would like to see more contribution as well. not sure if i will agree with a lynch. depends on the rest of the day(i.e. a counterclaim).

Don doesn't find Porkens anti-town? Even though Porkens hasn't contributed really at all? That's being (mildly) suspiciously overgenerous.

i have reread porkens posts. they are not suspicious to me. the L-1 vote is almost suspicious, but somebody has to do it. his laziness in helping lynch scum could be just that. later in the game it would be more suspicious, but on day1 anyone who actually dropped the hammer would be stupid. that said, let's be cautious with putting people at L-1 as long as canadianbovine walks among us.

Megatheory states there are no cops in this game (from flavour NPC kills). He also states that scum must be on IP's wagon. I find both these statements overly sure and dubious. And Mega, yeah I'm serious about that promise. It's not about whether IP is town or scum, it's about dissuading scum (and overeager townies) from cutting off discussion time in a constantly deadlined game.

i agree. megatheory has been racking up scumtells from page one when he insinuated i was town. not sure yet if he is slipping, or if he is just choosing poor words.

Okay, seriously, people who think D1 doesn't matter are wrong. Discussion now is just as important as any other day, skilled townies can pick up on scummy actions just like any other day etc. Saying that one townie dead isn't necessarily is a bad thing (compared to stopping, thinking, and lynching scum) is just scummy. I'm looking at you, bovine.

i wouldn't say scummy. it is wifomic. its poor play.

Either bovine is not reading the thread, or bovine is BSing. Going to go with BSing here,

FoS: canadianbovine

. Also, believe it or not, "consistent posting" is not an excuse for you to look scummy. -_-

i've thought on this, but, well, they may just really be canadian.

Atronach, stop and think about that plan for two seconds. Tracker not equal cop. If IP is a tracker and targeted scum, the scum will just claim a powerrole. Or IP could target a powerrole, and they'll be forced to claim, so we're not going to know which from IP alone. Or IP could target a vanilla townie. Or IP could be scum and claim to have targeted a vanilla townie. Do you see where I'm going with this?

there are so many variables, but letting him live a night or two could be very helpful. if we have a doc, and we lynch scum, then doc doesn't have to protect him. let the mafia confirm him or leave him be. whoever he investigates can confirm him. i don't think theres anyway to completely confirm him without his eventulal death, though. at least none that i can see. if we think he's lying we lynch him day 2. the most important thing to do to spin this to our advantage is to lynch scum today. so everyone not worried about who we lynch should start paying attention.

Oh Porkens, not you to. Even if we assumed the game had no cop that's not reason to assume there must be tracker, or that if there were and IP weren't they would they'd need to claim now. And it's GREAT to know you have no reason to believe IP is scum after putting him at L-1 and saying other cases had convinced you.

[Sarcasm]Oh, Pengion is admitting he made mistakes! Well, that's okay then. No, no, don't bother trying to explain them or providing any analysis you were asked for. We'll just believe you because you claimed and you are sorry.[/Sarcasm]

your reasoning is somewhat sound, but lynching an uncounterclaimed pr on day 1 is just plain silly. if you are so sure he's scum then we should be able to pick out his partner(s) from all this mess. i would like to hear from juls, she posted earlier to say she would post later. she hasn't as of the time that i'm writing this. apologies in advance if i get ninja'd.

[SpyreX]

The how does one have an end to chaos votecount:

Don_johnson (1): Juls
Juls (1): Plum

Insanepenguin02 (3): Megatheory, ChaosOmega, Gerantim

Porkens (1): Nameless

With 12 Alive it takes 7 to lynch.

[insanepenguin02]

to penguin, how do you hope to prove you are a tracker if given a night to survive?

Well it would be a difficult thing to do in one night (especially the first night) but if I were to get a result that could lead to mafia being found, then that could prove that my info was correct. It was just an idea but I see that it could be a hard thing to 100% prove in one night.

[insanepenguin02]

Yeah, IP's not even trying to be helpful now. Given that he did put the effort into his series of questions and answers earlier I'm not inclined to believe he's an angsty townie. He dies comes deadline if nothing else major comes up.

Atronach, stop and think about that plan for two seconds. Tracker not equal cop. If IP is a tracker and targeted scum, the scum will just claim a powerrole. Or IP could target a powerrole, and they'll be forced to claim, so we're not going to know which from IP alone. Or IP could target a vanilla townie. Or IP could be scum and claim to have targeted a vanilla townie. Do you see where I'm going with this?

[Sarcasm]Oh, Pengion is admitting he made mistakes! Well, that's okay then. No, no, don't bother trying to explain them or providing any analysis you were asked for. We'll just believe you because you claimed and you are sorry.[/Sarcasm]

Nameless, sorry that I have been a little less active here in the last few days but weather in Iowa has been INSANE if you have noticed. I will still be glad to helpful to the town but I won't be making the mistake again of putting out a long post with numerous questions because that will take forever to try to answer all of the returning questions that result.

What I am hoping for is to track the person that visits the house of whoever dies N-1. Then it should be fairly obvious that they are scum. But that will take some luck...

Like I said before, I am trying to get answers out there as quickly as I can. Patience is a virtue.

[insanepenguin02]

IP: any flavor on tracker?

I am not fully understanding, sorry. Do you mean was there any additional info given to me in regarding my role in my message from Mod? I don't want to state any of that in case it is OK.

Mod: Can I state if there was any storyline info in my role message?

[Plum]

Unvote: Insanepenguin, Vote Juls

.
I've noted Juls doing some questionable things in previous posts and she's now about my second scummiest. Probably would like to get to a reread of her and perhaps Mega later. For now, I think that's a fine place to put my vote.

people already don't like people voting their thrid scummiest. now you are voting only your second...

Your scummiest has claimed powerrole with nothing to indicate that the role does not exist or that he is not what he claimed. Do you still intend to lynch?

Answer to Geraintm: I'm voting my secoond scumiest because IP has claimed a powerrole and hasn't been counterclaimed. Do I still intend to lynch him? To be honest, I'mnot sure. In my admittedly limited experience lynching uncounterclaimed powerroles Day 1 usually isn't a good idea (and Nameless makes a good point that Tracker claim, whether IP's lying or not, gives a fair amount of leeway for scum lies). I probably would rather not lynch IP today, but if he starts acting extraordinarily scummy during the rest of the Day I won't ignore that and will vote again for his lynch.

[Sarcasm]Oh, Pengion is admitting he made mistakes! Well, that's okay then. No, no, don't bother trying to explain them or providing any analysis you were asked for. We'll just believe you because you claimed and you are sorry.[/Sarcasm]

Agreed. I remember (man this is becoming a refrain) an SK apologizing for poor play and acknowledging his mistakes, and doing so did improve his image with others (although the many scummy-looking townies didn't help either). Despite the agreement, the multiple times I've been part of a town which lynched an uncountered powerrole Day 1 and lost out for it haunts me, as above.

[SpyreX]

In case it isn't clear from rule #10:

You may NOT quote anything I say to you. You may paraphrase (although be careful) or lie or say nothing.

Just do NOT quote.

[canadianbovine]

i have reread porkens posts. they are not suspicious to me. the L-1 vote is almost suspicious, but somebody has to do it. his laziness in helping lynch scum could be just that. later in the game it would be more suspicious, but on day1 anyone who actually dropped the hammer would be stupid. that said, let's be cautious with putting people at L-1 as long as canadianbovine walks among us.

i've thought on this, but, well, they may just really be canadian.

Gender: Gender:Male
Joined: 22 Oct 2008
Location: san francisco

I will read a lot more carefully. That could of been a bad muck up... Still...why do people still have their votes on IP? If someone counterclaims, what stops you from revoting him? We still have a week until deadline. A lot of stuff can happen between now and then.

Either bovine is not reading the thread, or bovine is BSing. Going to go with BSing here,

FoS: canadianbovine

. Also, believe it or not, "consistent posting" is not an excuse for you to look scummy. -_-

I'm not saying its an excuse I'm saying its a legit way to hunt scum. The more the scum talk the more contradicting and WIFOMic they get. I never said something along the lines of "oh the only reason i'm looking scummy is because you guys are making me post so much." No. i realized that i fucked up with the penguin vote.

Okay, seriously, people who think D1 doesn't matter are wrong. Discussion now is just as important as any other day, skilled townies can pick up on scummy actions just like any other day etc. Saying that one townie dead isn't necessarily is a bad thing (compared to stopping, thinking, and lynching scum) is just scummy. I'm looking at you, bovine.

skilled townies have almost lynched a tracker?

[canadianbovine]

EBWOP: those last two quotes are from nameless