Mini 727 - Mafia in Standardville - Game Over

[BSG]

@Ruck
What I see is the following in posts 166 and 168:
You first call him scummy as he keep changing his positions. In post 168, you state that he could be confused or easily influenced.
To me that seems as if you also can't make up your mind.
You also give two explanations for Lynx to use in post 168. Now he can come up with a story in which one of these explanations is given as reason if he's scum.
Well, someone called you scum. If you're a townie, I would expect an explanation of your thoughts at that time. I would expect it sooner from scum to ignore such point. That's why I was wondering why you didn't give any comment.

And last for this post:
Those who are voting Xdaamno, why and what do you think of his explanations?

[Master Ruck]

I have already admitted my mistake in giving lynx possible outs so I won't comment on them any more unless people feel I should.

I didn't immediately respond my thoughts at being called scum as I thought that in itself would sound even more scummish, especially since all I would have basically said is "sorry, my bad. I'm just dumb," so I tried to focus on scum hunting again. Though, I will ask Charter a question that was asked to me. If you called me scum as you did (in caps, bold letters I might add) then why no vote or FoS of any kind? Surely suspicion warrants one of those two, or was it simply a pressure move to see what i might say in response?

[LlamaFluff]

Vote Count

Xdaamno (4) - Lynx the Antithesis, Danchaofan, Panzerjager, Charter
Lynx the Antithesis (2) - Darox, Tubby216
Artem (1) - BSG
Darox (1) - Artifex
Lowell (1) - Artem
Charter (1) - Xdaamno
Artifex (1) - Lowell

Not Voting (1) - Master Ruck

[charter]

I love all these stoaways fleeing my bandwagon, now that I've claimed and asked everybody to state their reasons. Their reason for fleeing: "Artem has defended himself sufficiently". Really?

Alternatively, people (at least myself) are more suspicious of Xdaamo.

darox- claimed pgo, wich was his first real post of the game, if he is a PGO then he has played it correctly. I believe a PGO should claim immediately after confirming to avoid any pro town role getting nk’d accidentily,

I disagree (but I don't want to actually argue about this in thread). I think that the correct play is to not claim and make the scum NK you by good scumhunting.

Those who are voting Xdaamno, why and what do you think of his explanations?

I think they're poor and indicative of scum. The fact that his wagon didn't balloon after an attempted speedhammer also makes me question why more people aren't voting him.

Though, I will ask Charter a question that was asked to me. If you called me scum as you did (in caps, bold letters I might add) then why no vote or FoS of any kind? Surely suspicion warrants one of those two, or was it simply a pressure move to see what i might say in response?

That was a strong FOS at you. If I was actually convinced you were scum from that I would have voted you and made a case.

LOS
Xdaamo
Panzer
The rest of you

@Everyone voting for someone with just one vote, why? And if the answer is "I think they're scum" or "They need pressure" then why are you not making a case or pressuring? I don't remember any of the reasons you all are voting alone for someone, so I get the impression you're just trying to not call attention to yourself and aren't actually scumhunting.

[tubby216]

@charter- fair enough, i see your point

[Danchaofan]

@charter: regarding pgos, that can be rather difficult to do.

v/la till sunday night/ monday night- I'll try to get something up before I go to sleep in an hour.

[charter]

Like I said, that's just how I view it, I think it would be an interesting MD thread (though probably done before).

[Danchaofan]

I can imagine myself trying to do some hardcore scumhunting... and failing miserably. lol.

As a newbie, I'm wondering how this situation is resolved: Panzer accuses charter and artem as possible buddies for some reason that I've forgotten. Charter later votes artem. Panzer calls bussing as a possibility. However, if charter hadn't voted panzer might use this as evidence that they are buddies and charter doesn't want to kill his partner. The second situation is purely hypothetical and might not even work as an actual accusation however what I'm really getting at is if a person is stuck between two possibly incriminating choices, a) how would you decide? b) what do you make of someone who pushes the fact that the choice you made is scummy (when the other possibility is equally scummy)?

tubby: hi and pleasant avatar

[Danchaofan]

BTW, Xda, 12 posts in pages 8.5-10.3 and 15 posts from 1-8.5. Care to explain the sudden burst of activity or previous relative lack thereof?

charter what does LOS mean?

[charter]

Dan, the reason you are confused by Panzer's statements is they are coming from scum. They probably don't make much sense.

LOS stands for List of Suspicion (with my higher suspects at top and least suspects on the bottom)

[Xdaamno]

I think they're poor and indicative of scum. The fact that his wagon didn't balloon after an attempted speedhammer also makes me question why more people aren't voting him.

Bull. Can you show me a point you (or anyone else) have made that I have failed to show does not make me scum?

[Xdaamno]

EBWOP: Poorly worded, but I think you see what I'm saying.

[Lowell]

From the top:

9- artifex votes Xdaamno for placing a 3rd vote on BSG [-, pointless]
10- artem votes artifex for taking on "easy target" [-, equally pointless]
12- danchaofan votes artem for taking on "easy target" [-, ditto]
29- panzer votes BSG, 4th vote
30- charter votes BSG, 5th vote [+]
33- artem unvotes artifex, FOSs charter [-, why just FOS?]
35- BSG votes artem [+, points out hypocrisy]
37- lynx votes artem for not voting
77- lowell summarizes, calls artem and artifex scummy, BSG and lynx town
91- panzer votes charter
94- panzer posts on all players, artem and charter are scummy
99- charter votes artem
100- artem leads w/ 4 votes
110- panzer votes artem
112- artem votes lowell for not explaining himself [-, lazy]
118- darox votes lynx, claims "paranoid gun owner" (kills those that target him) [+, good point]
119- master ruck votes artem for random targets [+]
124- panzer asks for artem to claim
127- artifex votes darox, doesn't believe claim
128- artem leads w/ 5 votes
134- master ruck calls lowell stupid [lowell cries]
137- artem defends lowell vote
142- charter calls MR scum, asks for artem claim
143- artem claims vanilla town
148- artem continues to defend MR and lowell cases [-, backtracking]
153- Xdaamo votes charter [-, lazy, distracting]
171- lynx votes xdaamo for jumping then abandoning artem wagon [+, very good]
182- dancha votes xdaamo
183- xdaamo gets angry...
184- panzer votes xdaamno
190- BSG FOSs xdaamno and MR
214- charter votes xdaamno
220- tubby votes lynx for reaction to darox claim, interaction with xdaamno

unvote, vote xdaamno, FOS artem

. I'm willing to lynch either one.

Xdaamo jumps on the artem wagon early, then abandons it in post 153 just as it's gaining steam for a very flimsy case on charter. This looks like derailment. His reactions to being called out for it (183 and others) don't do anything to help his defense.

artem has looked scummy throughout. The case on me in 112 is lazy and made just as pressure on him to do something is mounting. When called on that he spends a lot of time (137, 148) explaining himself. 148 in particular really looks like a case made in hindsight. He slapped a vote down when he was in trouble, then went back after the fact to justify it. His claim of vanilla town does nothing to make me think he shouldn't be the lynch.

I believe

darox

's claim, and find him to be pro-town. His claim was

not

made under duress, which makes it credible.

More town points for

charter

and

lynx

. Lynx has led the attack on xdaamno, and charter made a series of townish posts (99, 142, 214). As well, I'm leaning town for

artifex

and

panzer

, but both of those are more gut feelings than anything else.

[Artifex]

@Everyone voting for someone with just one vote, why? And if the answer is "I think they're scum" or "They need pressure" then why are you not making a case or pressuring? I don't remember any of the reasons you all are voting alone for someone, so I get the impression you're just trying to not call attention to yourself and aren't actually scumhunting.

I made my case in 127 and then again in 170. I'll post 127 againto save some backtracking-

Yow, I wish I hadnt gone to bed, cause everything got crazier all of a sudden.

I dont know what to make of Xdaamno's post at all. I cant imagine a good reason to hammer without even letting Artem get a chance to claim. And idea idea that we were able to pull back from this only because he forgot to unvote...it seems maybe too good to be true. I too will wait to hear from Xdaamno: did you deliberately vote before letting Artem even speak up? Did you know that you hadnt unvoted: if so, why the attempt to throw the game into chaos?

As for Darox's claim, I find it incredibly suspicious. So, basically, the only value of that role was that mafia might off you and get offed themselves...and you've thrown that away with your first substantive post. And now you've left yourself in a position that tries to make you untouchable by both town and scum alike? ...this smacks of a seperate win condition to me, if not an outright false claim.

It may not be fair to judge Darox for Lunar Ticks actions in the game, but I was already suspicious of the player you stepped in for for clearly being present (even checking in quickly after the bluehost crash thing) but not contributing at all. I didnt know what to make of the fact that right after I FOSed him he requested replacement- the two may not be connected, but you bet the thought has crossed my mind that they are. And now you come in with a claim that intends to leave you invulnerable, while taking away the one valuable aspect to town about it? Vote: Darox

@Charter- You seem to be coming from the viewpoint that Darox is town who made a bad decision by claiming. I think he's not town, and made what was probably a very savvy decision as everyone seems to be going along with it.

@Lowell- I also have begun to think Darox's claim is genuine- but I dont believe he's sharing everything about it with us.

I realize my main concern about Darox is not necessarily something that needs be addressed day one. My next scummiest suspect is Xdaamno, for his unsatisfying explanations for the hammer-that-wasnt and also for what I wrote about it 123. I would be willing to lynch Darox or Xadaamno.

[Xdaamno]

-still waiting for this stealth bandwagon to give some evidence-

[charter]

I think they're poor and indicative of scum. The fact that his wagon didn't balloon after an attempted speedhammer also makes me question why more people aren't voting him.

Bull. Can you show me a point you (or anyone else) have made that I have failed to show does not make me scum?

Not bull.

Xdaamo, why did you say Artem would be a good lynch, then you were "saved" when her lynch didn't actually occur? Why the backpedal? And why did you say you reread when you voted, and then in your next post say you need to reread? And how did you miss it being L-1 with a votecount at the top of the page?

That's unusual. Interrogating, when the answers to all of those questions should be obvious to anyone who's done a moment's thought. This is a real, general "trying to look helpful" scum vibe.

Unvote, Vote: charter

I ask you legitamate questions, and you blow them off and OMGUS vote me. It's not even OMGUS, it's just a TERRIBLE vote you throw down. NONE of the answers there were remotely obvious. What is obvious is that your overreacting and refusal to answer is incredibly scummy of you. When you finally did give answers, they were bad.

You've never explained why you hammered and wanted an Artem lynch, then flipped around once Artem claimed.

Also,

As already mentioned, there was a VC on top of the page where you 'voted' Artem. Strange that you didn't pay much attention towards the VC when you wanted to apply pressure, not?

Uh, I don't think so, especially because my Artem vote was also for pressure.

Adding reasosn for your vote after it's way too late, in an attempt to make it seem like you didn't mean the lynch. In your hammer post, you clearly did want the lynch then. The story changing and flip flopping is scummy.

I admit many of my posts have been speculation. Distancing myself from 'the main scum hunt' is something I do actively.

Scummy as well.

You try and change your reasons some more again later. None of the excuses fly because you said you wanted an Artem lynch. Not Artem pressure, not because you were suspicious of Artem.

238- That's a really weak case. It revolves around the fact that you think the PGO is a scum roll. Policy lynching Darox day one is a really terrible idea. I'm unsure of Darox's alignment. Just cause he claimed PGO doesn't mean he has a get out of jail free pass. I've never said I thought him town.

[Artem]

artem has looked scummy throughout. The case on me in 112 is lazy and made just as pressure on him to do something is mounting. When called on that he spends a lot of time (137, 148) explaining himself. 148 in particular really looks like a case made in hindsight. He slapped a vote down when he was in trouble, then went back after the fact to justify it. His claim of vanilla town does nothing to make me think he shouldn't be the lynch.

1) Can you point out the pressure on me to do something. As far as I recall, nobody was stating that I wasn't doing enough scum-hunting.
2) Post 112:

I will also Vote: Lowell because he generally fails to provide reasons behind his words/actions (see his first two posts). He references forgetfullness as a way to avoid providing reasons. When others call him out on him, he draws up a buddying/distancing scenario (how do you forget that in the first place? it feels like he drew up the case when others asked him to provide reasons, rather than the case itself being the reasons) and goes back to lurking.

Post 148:

And finally, we have Lowell, who has a small case of amnesia and then suddenly remembers his buddying/distancing case.

Can you show what I made up in post 148 in hindsight, that I didn't have in post 112?

(Note that the rest of 148 has nothing to do with my vote on you)

3) I might as well address this here as well:

Sure, it's WIFOM if you think that I (as scum) would do something pointless, just for the whole sake of later claiming that it was pointless for scum to do that. I would still like to hear from Lowell why he thinks his reason (b) has good motivation for scum.

It's wifom because it's a distancing maneuver (scummy) yet your argument is it's so pointless that mafia would never do it.

Yet, I am asking Lowell to explain why his argument point has good motivation for scum. WIFOM was not his original point of attack. Buddying/distancing was and I'm asking him to explain why it makes sense for scum to play as I did.

His original attack is not wifom, it's your response that is wifom. His point is still valid, your response (because of wifom) is invalid.

Lowell's original point is not valid, because it lacks scum motivation. If I say that you're voting xdaamno because he's your partner and you're bussing him, I need to state why it would make sense for scum to do that. Otherwise, my attack lacks the reason to back it up. Sure, if you dismiss my (hypothetical) attack as "scum has no reason to bus their partner here", I could call you out for WIFOM but really, it's my fault for not stating why it would make sense to bus.

For reference, here's Lowell's reason (b) for voting me:

(b) the odd vote/unvote by artem on artifex. It's like he voted for artifex to set up a lecture about the nature of votes, then unvoted, only to FOS someone he said he was actually suspicious of. It looks like he was throwing a token "distancing" vote to a scumbuddy early, then just flimsily moving somewhere else. There's so much buddying here that I think at least one of them is scum.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Regarding Xdaamno:

I think that if Xdaamno was scum (and, thus, knew my alignment), he would not have placed the flimsy hammer, because (knowing my alignment) he would have realized that once I card-flipped he would take just as much heat (if not more) on day 2.

I realize that my argument has a hint of WIFOM in it, which is why I'm not going to ask this argument to be taken as serious defense. I am simply explaining how I feel about Xdaamno at the moment and why I'm not voting for him (@charter's question in 228).

I still think that there's a group of scum hopping from one convenient bandwagon to another in hopes of learning more about town roles (another reason why I feel Xdaamno is town). Just waiting for the claim demands now.

[Artem]

EBWOP: I should also state that not

all

the players on Xdaamno's wagon are scum hopping wagons. There are some very good points presented against Xdaamno. But I still get a feeling that we have free riders.

[Master Ruck]

I figured I'd take the time to look at Xd's posts to see if this wagon is unfounded or not. After doing so, I don't have any reason to disagree with it. There was a large week-long gap between posts, the first after the gap saying he'll post more and the post after being the would-be lynch. Arguments have been made against him and he has either barely defended, poorly defended or not bothered to defend against by saying he has lost interest.

I'm gonna

Vote: Xdaamno

and make it

very

that this puts Xd at L-1, so nobody else vote him yet. I'll unvote if people want to feel more safe and discuss more, but as far as I can see with his lack of scum hunting and the potential hammer, discussion is essentially over and unless anyone disagrees Xda should claim.

[Xdaamno]

I figured I'd take the time to look at Xd's posts to see if this wagon is unfounded or not. After doing so,

I don't have any reason to disagree with it.

There was a large week-long gap between posts, the first after the gap saying he'll post more and the post after being the would-be lynch. Arguments have been made against him and he has either barely defended, poorly defended or not bothered to defend against by saying he has lost interest.

I'll respond to charter tommorow.

[Xdaamno]

EBWOP: I haven't ever barely defended, poorly defended or not bothered to defend myself, ever, to my knowledge.

[Artifex]

Okay, if that was too short for you I'll expand:

-120. Xda says that the original Artem attack is 'BS', but that Artem shouldnt need Xda to tell him that. Xda's done some rereading and says Artem is a good lynch.
-121. Xda says that he was saved from accidentally lynching Artem, because he didnt know Artem was L-1. Implies that he finds the wagon suspicous, and is going to reread again to figure out why.
That was Sunday. On Monday, Xda pops in once with 151. There is no read or results mentioned yet.
-151- Xda assures Lynx that he does pay attention to this game, and missing a few days has made it difficult to get back into the game which is where his mistake came from.
On Tuesday comes 183- Xda clarifies that he didnt actually think Artem was a good lynch but was pressure voting. Expresses offense that Lynx and DCF dont think he's giving a case on anything.
But you're not- you've been promising a re-read and implying that when you did so, you would come back with a case regarding something you found suspicious ie the Artem wagon. But you havent done that, so they're right to call you out on it.
-188- Xda says he finds it difficult to get back into a discussion where he's not involved or being attacked. But before, you said you found it difficult to get back into the game cause youd been out for a few days. So yeah, couple that with the defensive attitudes of 183 and 188 and it starts to feel like you're making up excuses.
-192- You point out that the two re-reads I've referenced above refer to you re-reading for two separate things, but you seem to be missing the point which is that you havent done them.
-193- Xda says his Artem vote for BOTH scumminess and pressure. To my mind this is a direct contradiction to everything youve said in the posts I've outlined above.
-197- Lynx flat out asks Xda for his reasoning behind his votes. 198, 201, 204, 205- posts that cover some game theory and grammatical questions, but what you dont do is answer that question. In 208 Xda admits he cant remember where his original 'vibes' off of Artem came from and that he'd have to do a re-read. Color me skeptical that this will happen at this point....

The more I looked at these exchanges the more evasive they seemed to me. It's like you can't give a straight answer, or provide any insight into anyone you're ACTUALLY gunning for. After Darox, I find this behavior the most suspicious in the game.

On preview: Xda, oh I definitely think you've defended yourself all over the place. My issue is that I cant see where you've done anything else.

[Xdaamno]

OK, I certainly admit to that. I'm being lazy, in that I'm going for the easy arguments to make (that is, those for which I know the ultimate answer beforehand). I'm still slacking at my second job. Several of your points, such as the below, fall under this general area. If you're going to be analyzing me, we should stick to my alignment.

In 208 Xda admits he cant remember where his original 'vibes' off of Artem came from and that he'd have to do a re-read. Color me skeptical that this will happen at this point...

[Master Ruck]

Oooh, damn, Artem pre-emptively called me out on the claim issue. I need to refresh the topic before I make a post else I would have seen that.

Still, as scummy as it sounds for me to say it, I don't actually have anything else to add to the Xdaamno case. Charter especially, as well as panzer, lynx and artifex now have all made quite clear what you have done and any more dodging will not make you look any better. Perhaps you should start being a bit more direct with questions asked against you. Actually, maybe we should ask you what you think of the other players now and see if you make any attempt to answer. You're at L-1 now anyway, so if you're going to be lynched it's best we at least hear who you think is scum and who's not.

[Xdaamno]

Still, as scummy as it sounds for me to say it, I don't actually have anything else to add to the Xdaamno case.

Charter especially, as well as panzer, lynx and artifex now have all made quite clear what you have done and any more dodging will not make you look any better.

Perhaps

you should start being a bit more direct with questions asked against you. Actually,

maybe

we should ask you what you think of the other players now and see if you make any attempt to answer. You're at L-1 now anyway, so if you're going to be lynched it's best we at least hear who you think is scum and who's not.

My scumdar is beeping again.

I'll do a direct Q&A post tommorow, mark my words! I'll lynch myself, otherwise.