Mini 729 - WaTR Mafia - Game Over!


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Post Post #100 (ISO) » Tue Jan 13, 2009 9:12 am

Post by Rhinox »

Occam wrote:Also worth noting is that both Rhinox and MM have posted since I asked someone to explain the Lunar wagon and neither has done so. This reinforces my belief that it's unfounded.
Whats so noteworthy about that?




Mod-Edit Votecount 1-4

Lunar Tick - 5 (Rhinox, MonkeyMan, Rogue Shenanigans, Korts, Kiro)
BSG - 1 (Prom King)
Rogue Shenanigans - 1 (freeko)
MonkeyMan - 1 (BSG)
Kiro - 1 (Occam)

Not Voting - Syplus, Lunar_Tick, Raider

With 12 left, 7 to lynch.
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Post Post #101 (ISO) » Tue Jan 13, 2009 9:14 am

Post by Korts »

I have to admit, I'm suddenly a little lost here. I'll need to try re-reading, but right now I'm too drowsy.
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Post Post #102 (ISO) » Tue Jan 13, 2009 10:06 am

Post by Occam »

Whats so noteworthy about that?
...seriously? Did you read anything except for "noteworthy" in that post? I said why right in there...
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Post Post #103 (ISO) » Tue Jan 13, 2009 10:28 am

Post by Rhinox »

Well, Occam, I didn't wagon on Lunar, so I'm wondering what you find so noteworthy about me not explaining the wagon. I can't really explain why other people decided to wagon lunar.

The question we should be asking is, why are you so worried about votes on Lunar?
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Post Post #104 (ISO) » Tue Jan 13, 2009 10:34 am

Post by Occam »

The question (I'll phrase it now in a question, more directly, so that you might give it notice) you should be answering is:

Why are you still on LT's wagon? Do you feel it's justified? If so, please explain why to me, because you're still a vote on it, which implicitly states that you agree with it.

I am concerened with votes on LT because I don't see where they're coming from - and evidently, even the people who are voting for him don't know.
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Post Post #105 (ISO) » Tue Jan 13, 2009 10:46 am

Post by Sipylus »

/confirm Hey all. I'll read up and post sometime this afternoon.

For the record - I live in upside down land (when I'm not traveling on a path to a big tree!) so its 8.45am on Monday morning where I am as I post this. If it seems like it takes me a long time to respond to questions, it could be because I'm asleep while you're awake ;)

Cheers
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Post Post #106 (ISO) » Tue Jan 13, 2009 10:46 am

Post by Sipylus »

EBWOP - Yeah, uh - I'm replacing Spambot in case that wasn't clear.
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Post Post #107 (ISO) » Tue Jan 13, 2009 11:00 am

Post by Rhinox »

Why are you still on LT's wagon? Do you feel it's justified?
That all depends on whether or not LT is scum.
If so, please explain why to me, because you're still a vote on it, which implicitly states that you agree with it.
Actually, it means I don't disagree with the votes on LT, which carries a slightly different meaning. My vote stays on LT because I don't find anybody any more scummy than anyone else, so LT is just as likely to be scum as anyone else I could be voting for. If he gets lynched, he gets lynched. I'm not afraid to participate in lynching anybody. You have a problem with LT being lynched?
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Post Post #108 (ISO) » Tue Jan 13, 2009 11:08 am

Post by Korts »

I know why I'm voting for LT, for one.
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Post Post #109 (ISO) » Tue Jan 13, 2009 11:26 am

Post by Occam »

That all depends on whether or not LT is scum.
...and we won't know that until he's lynched. So to be on his wagon, you should have an opinion one way or the other. Is he scum or is he not, based on the evidence we have pre-lynch? That's how you evaluate. So do you think he's scum or not? You seem to be trying to make it look like you're impartial until after a lynch - and it doesn't make any sense. Are you saying you're OK with lynching someone regardless of what you think they're alignment is, and also without any solid evidence? That's what I get out of this:
My vote stays on LT because I don't find anybody any more scummy than anyone else, so LT is just as likely to be scum as anyone else I could be voting for. If he gets lynched, he gets lynched. I'm not afraid to participate in lynching anybody.
That's a scum attitude.
unvote - vote: Rhinox

You have a problem with LT being lynched?
Yes, because like I've said, unlike yourself, I need EVIDENCE to justify a vote/lynch. It DOES matter to me who we lynch and I DO want to know why. I AM afraid of lynching ANYBODY. I want to lynch the RIGHT person, not ANYBODY.

And we can now add Korts to the list of people who have posted without revealing what reason they have for voting Lunar. This wagon is either driven by scum or ignorance and neither of them have a sense of direction that's any help to the town.
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Post Post #110 (ISO) » Tue Jan 13, 2009 11:27 am

Post by Occam »

Also, welcome Syp!
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Post Post #111 (ISO) » Tue Jan 13, 2009 11:38 am

Post by Korts »

FYI Occam here is the reason I jumped on the Lunar wagon. He slipped, citing knowledge that the town doesn't have.
MonkeyMan576 wrote:
Lunar_Tick wrote:
MonkeyMan576 wrote:
Lunar_Tick wrote:@Monkeyman: Defending the move is just as bad as doing it, if not more so. Like Prom King said, it's unlikely scum would actully choose a path this early, but having someone defend the tactics worries me.
Your whole post and vote assumes that the choice has any kind of bearing on the game. You are very far from being sure of your claims, at least not close enough to make any kind of conclusion and subsequently vote on it. And if you are sure of your claims (and it seems that you are), then you are highly suspicious.

Also I don't like the way you use the word "tactics" in your post, when there was clearly no under-hand mafia scheme but rather a random choice.
You're not in a position to say what I'm able to come to a conclusion on and vote for. All I need to vote is to think that you are more guilty than anyone else. And I clearly do. The only way you could know if there was a scheme or if it was random choice is if you were scum, a townie would not know the difference.
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Post Post #112 (ISO) » Tue Jan 13, 2009 11:40 am

Post by Korts »

DAMN YOU /QUOTE TAG

Anyway, Occam is doing a big show of defending LT. Sucking up to town, or do you not want your precious scumteam violated? You can be honest with me.
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Post Post #113 (ISO) » Tue Jan 13, 2009 11:41 am

Post by freeko »

Isnt the whole point of the first day to build up an information base to use in future days? A 4? person bandwagon is nothing when it requires 7 of us to lynch someone. Maybe it is a play to get some information from the player that is bandwagoned? I may switch my vote over there if nothing comes of it to force the issue. I dont get why you have your panites all in a bunch over someone getting bandwagoned, occam? Unless of course he is your scumbuddy and you are trying to defend him to the end of time?

Enlighten me here, as you seem to be the one that sticks out the most.

And since I am on old japanese proverbs, here is another one.

The nail that sticks out gets hammered.

Occam, you are the one that sticks out most to me. Though I am not sure what to make of it. So maybe you could do some explaining?
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Post Post #114 (ISO) » Tue Jan 13, 2009 11:56 am

Post by Occam »

Sucking up to town, or do you not want your precious scumteam violated?
False dilemma? Neither, actually, just trying to prevent a mislynch.

Anyways, thanks for finally explaining - but it seems you're actually voting him because he used the word tactics... not because he has inside information. How is that a valid reason? Reread the quote you posted and get back to me on that.

@ freeko:

The proverb you quoted, "The nail that sticks out gets hammered" essentially means "CONFORM OR WE WILL CONFORM YOU FOR YOU." That makes sense in the context of the tightly-wound high-pressure group mentality of Japan, but not so much in a game of mafia, where you must stick your neck out to defend something if you think it's right.

I like how I'm being called scummy for defending someone - defending someone is NOT a scumtell. You may consider this bandwagon productive in terms of "getting information"... I do not. If it were a bandwagon that formed on someone for a valid reason, THEN we could get some info out of it.
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Post Post #115 (ISO) » Tue Jan 13, 2009 12:01 pm

Post by MonkeyMan576 »

BSG wrote:MM, nothing else to say?
Yes, I stand by my interpretation of the mod's statement and would like to point out that Occum is backtracking...
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Post Post #116 (ISO) » Tue Jan 13, 2009 12:02 pm

Post by Occam »

Occum is backtracking...
Ummm how?
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Post Post #117 (ISO) » Tue Jan 13, 2009 12:04 pm

Post by MonkeyMan576 »

Occam wrote:
Occum is backtracking...
Ummm how?
Occam wrote:I'll agree with you that the decision itself is not important, nor the ramifications that directly result from the decision.
It sounds like you're leaving open the possibility that there are long term consequences to the decisions we make now, which is different than what you said before, that the path's we take in the beginning don't really matter.
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Post Post #118 (ISO) » Tue Jan 13, 2009 12:17 pm

Post by Occam »

It sounds like you're leaving open the possibility that there are long term consequences to the decisions we make now, which is different than what you said before, that the path's we take in the beginning don't really matter.
No, not even close and I don't even see how you could get that wrong. I say explicitly that neither the choice nor the ramifications matter. How is that backtracking?
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Post Post #119 (ISO) » Tue Jan 13, 2009 12:42 pm

Post by MonkeyMan576 »

Occam wrote:
It sounds like you're leaving open the possibility that there are long term consequences to the decisions we make now, which is different than what you said before, that the path's we take in the beginning don't really matter.
No, not even close and I don't even see how you could get that wrong. I say explicitly that neither the choice nor the ramifications matter. How is that backtracking?
Well, thank you for clarifying, but that clearly contradicts what the mod said...
Jebus wrote:This decision will not make much of a difference now, though similar decisions may be more potent later.
So clearly, if we continue to make similar decisions, it will have consequences. That is very different from saying the decisions have no importance.
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Post Post #120 (ISO) » Tue Jan 13, 2009 12:52 pm

Post by Rhinox »

False dilemma? Neither, actually, just trying to prevent a mislynch.
What makes you so sure the lynching LT would be a mislynch? What evidence is there that LT is town?
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Post Post #121 (ISO) » Tue Jan 13, 2009 1:22 pm

Post by Occam »

MM wrote: That is very different from saying the decisions have no importance.
And I didn't say the DECISIONS (note the S at the end of the word) have no importance, nor did the mod. I said the FIRST DECISION (notice the LACK of an S at the end of the word) was not important, AS DID THE MOD.
Rhinox wrote: What makes you so sure the lynching LT would be a mislynch? What evidence is there that LT is town?
Few things.

A. I I were scum the LAST THING I would be trying to do would be steering the town AWAY from a mislynch.
B. I'm not sure it's a mislynch. I just see no evidence that it will be a good lynch.
C. Asking me to PROVE that LT is town is the same as asking someone to PROVE that they aren't scum (then using the fact that they CAN'T as evidence that they ARE scum, or in this case, the fact that I CAN'T prove that he's town as evidence that he's scum):
wiki wrote:A particularly damning method of false argument involves forcing someone to prove that they are not Scum, and then using their lack of proof as evidence that they are. It is similar to the "you can't prove that invisible pink unicorns didn't create the universe" argument.
In short, it's impossible for me to PROVE that LT is town because I have no idea if he even is town. But you can't use the fact that I can't prove LT is town as evidence that he's scum. The only form of case that is valid is a case by person A on person B formed with the intention of demonstrating to the rest of the town why you think someone is scum. Asking someone to construct a case that doesn't fit that formula is committing the "Burden of Proof" fallacy, which you're guilty of.
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Post Post #122 (ISO) » Tue Jan 13, 2009 1:24 pm

Post by freeko »

@occam: you didnt convince me. I still think this bandwagon is providing information. Unfortunately for you, I think it is telling me that you are trying to defend your scumbuddy? Which for you would obviously be a mis-lynch. Because the next thing the town does is string you up for defending a scum player so ardently.

Maybe this should be the time and place where you give us a reason for your zealous defense of another player?

I am truly considring moving my vote either onto you or onto the bandwagon for LT, as it seems to have gotten a reaction out of you. I cant help but think that LT is playing the silent lurker scum while you are playing the more vocal of the group trying to convince everyone else that others within the group are worth more attnetion than your scummate?
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Post Post #123 (ISO) » Tue Jan 13, 2009 1:26 pm

Post by freeko »

Oh and isnt all that ABCD crap WIFOM? I mean an actual reason might help. The only thing you are telling me is that the 2 of you are linked somehow. Lovers? Scummates? Help yourself out here.
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Post Post #124 (ISO) » Tue Jan 13, 2009 1:41 pm

Post by Rhinox »

Occam wrote: A. I I were scum the LAST THING I would be trying to do would be steering the town AWAY from a mislynch.
Thats quite bad wifom, considering that scum often argue against a townie mislynch to prove their good townie judgment.
Occam wrote: B. I'm not sure it's a mislynch. I just see no evidence that it will be a good lynch.
C. Asking me to PROVE that LT is town is the same as asking someone to PROVE that they aren't scum (then using the fact that they CAN'T as evidence that they ARE scum, or in this case, the fact that I CAN'T prove that he's town as evidence that he's scum):
I'm not asking you to prove anything... but surely you must have some reason, or some information, that makes you think LT would be a mislynch, as opposed to simply a bad lynch at a bad time.

But its nice to see you know how to browse the wiki ;)
freeko wrote: Oh and isnt all that ABCD crap WIFOM? I mean an actual reason might help. The only thing you are telling me is that the 2 of you are linked somehow. Lovers? Scummates? Help yourself out here.
hmmm... fishing much? Occam defending LT doesn't mean they are linked.

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