Mafia 86 - mafia.gif - Game Over!

[The Fonz]

BlakAdder: Who's scum? You've suggested not LF and not me. You voted massive way back, and haven't followed through on it. You were voting Jebus on LAL grounds, then moved to LF over some BS apparent 'slip.' You then unvoted, and you haven't done anything resembling scumhunting since.

[Jahudo]

Massive: Please say if you are SK in your next post.

I think BA has and continues to look scummier than SG by far.

However, do you think at such an early stage I would have risked my neck for him?

This is the only problem I have with SG's latest post. I'll admit that scum probably wouldn't dismiss the idea entirely.

Now this is interesting. Both BA and SG did similar things D1, just SG did it a bit less blatantly then BA did. They both made a connection between tajo-stef that hinged partially on the other being scum. BA said that tajo town leans stef town, SG used stef scum so tajo scum. SG just jumps on BA though, and then lurks for most of the rest of the day.

Where have I explicitely said that if one flipped scum that it meant the other was as well?[/quote]
This just reminds me how we should be lynching BA.

BA is at L-2 if I'm not mistaken so I will hold my vote until massive shows up.

[Erratus Apathos]

I am not the SK.

Vote BlakAdder

, because he's definitely not town either. My bet is on BA being Jap mafia, because of his interactions with Stef and Tajo on day 1.

I know there are people who believe believe BA is really a vanilla townie because he reacted 'genuinely' to Jebus's gambit, but that's a terrible argument. As pointed out before, if BA didn't kill GW himself, then it would've been easy to figure out Jebus was lying. A vanilla townie and a mafia would react in exactly the same way if they knew Jebus was lying.

Town and scum

never

react in

exactly

the same way. Case in point:

I've said it before, I'll say it again. I'm a vanilla townie. If the game isn't over tomorrow, promise me you'll lynch Jebus, and possibly LlamaFluff as well when Jebus flips scum. The way Llama's been acting towards Jebus's claim makes me think that they are scum partners

At this point, it looked impossible that BA wouldn't be the lynch - he defied Jebus's claim, then I confirmed it. Rather than try anything and everything to get out the lynch, as scum would do, he accepted that he was going to be today's lynch, and then asked for Jebus's lynch tomorrow.

If BA was Greek and didn't kill GhostWriter, there is no way Jebus would have been lynched tomorrow if BA was lynched Greek today, because it would add veracity to Jebus's claim. Accepting his own lynch under the pretenses of Jebus falling tomorrow would be a ridiculously shitty play if he was Greek.

And if he was Japanese or SK, he wouldn't even care about tomorrow at all since his lynch today would spell game over - his top concern would certainly have been survival. BA's post here is pretty much the polar opposite of survival.

This post really only makes sense from the vantage point of a townie giving up in order to get scum lynched tomorrow.

[ShadowGirl]

Basically the above post. And although her interactions with Stef imply Yakuza, I actually think that she'd be Greek. Why? 'Cause I've been there before. Defending and teaming is done by scum, but usually with a pro-town as the 'victim'. Though remember, Yakuza don't know who the Greeks are.

I don't think I understand. Do you mean that I defended Stef in attempt to, that if I got lynched and flipped scum it would throw suspicion on him?

This is the only problem I have with SG's latest post. I'll admit that scum probably wouldn't dismiss the idea entirely

Of course, it's still a possiblity - I just meant in terms of percentages that it's more likely someone in such a case wouldn't have.

Waiting for massive to post, as well what are BA's suspicions.

[LlamaFluff]

Your first two points: Basically that I was protecting Stef and trying to get attention off him? Anyway about the second quote (since I don't see the big deal about the first one) : at the time he was taking tings very personally - why shouldn't I tell him that the way he was going about it was not the right way? I am more leanient on newbies, but as I said that doesn't entirely excuse their behaviour. Not much else I can say on those points - you can view as such a way. However, do you think at such an early stage I would have risked my neck for him?

First yes, you seemed to be trying to defend Stef by firstly trying to counter the line of questioning CKD was starting, and secondly by trying to calm him down instead of taking a strong stance on the conversation that was occuring. Your post was more on a way to ignore the entire string of events, you completely fence sat on if Stef was scum, and tried to calm him down. Also nice WIFOM defense at the end there.

This one is just red flags all over the place. First, Tajo and Seras actions are null tells, which is amazingly hard to believe when you read this game. I personally was surprized Tajo lasted as long as he did. Stef is regarded as a weak scumtell though. Now at this point SG had just unvoted in the same post and does have Stef at scum, weak it may be but at scum. There is no vote for Stef though. It continues as calling Tajo scum for defending Stef. Now, player A defending player B is not scummy if you do not know either alignment. Player A having defendED player B who flipped scum is scummy though, and is reason to take a closer look at player A. Now - SG is using Tajo as A and Stef as B. Stef is being used to build up suspicion on Tajo, but neither player has flipped, so SG is essentially using unknown alignment (which she only has as slightly scummy) to call another unknown alignment scummy. This just seems like SG knew that Stef was scum and tried to use that to further other lynches before Stef was actually revealed.

I was playing with Tajo in another game, and his playstyle was very much the same so I didn't really see him as being overly scummy. So, what are you getting at with me saying they were null tells? One of those people did flip town, you know. You're exaggerating my post - nowhere do I deem him scum for defending scum. I say he is 'slightly' scummy. Neither do I say Stef is scum either, but merely exhibited a weak scumtell. So, all in all : you have majorly exaggerated what I said.

First of all, I dont see how someone claiming vanilla the way tajo did can ever be seen as a nulltell, hell even if someone like Nat did that I would be wanting them lynched. Now you are pulling the "well I was right" card on tajo flipping town, which I dont think surprised you. What you did do though is use Stef to incriminate Tajo in your 11th post. Since you saw tajo who you called town, slightly scummy for defending stef, who you also saw as town. In your 14 though, you change this around, and are trying to make Stef scum because tajo is scum, which gave you reasoning not to carry through with any case on Stef day 2. Much like BA was accused of doing.

Now this is interesting. Both BA and SG did similar things D1, just SG did it a bit less blatantly then BA did. They both made a connection between tajo-stef that hinged partially on the other being scum. BA said that tajo town leans stef town, SG used stef scum so tajo scum. SG just jumps on BA though, and then lurks for most of the rest of the day.

Where have I explicitely said that if one flipped scum that it meant the other was as well?

You implied this paring multiple times (your 11 and 14 are the best examples of this)

I also completely agree with what EA posted about how BA is not scum. It doesnt make sense as Greek, Jap or SK. BA is really town in my eyes right now thanks to Jebus' gambit he pulled.

[The Fonz]

I'm not sure I entirely buy LF/EA's read on BA, but i still don't think he's today's lynch.

SG would still be my choice- also getting 'middling' vibes off of Jahudo.

[Jebus]

I'm not sure I entirely buy LF/EA's read on BA, but i still don't think he's today's lynch.

SG would still be my choice- also getting 'middling' vibes off of Jahudo.

This^

[Claus]

Mod's Hint of the day:

Choose your Operational System well.

Vote Count!

Blak Adder 4 - Farside, Springlulaby, ShadowGirl, Sierra
ShadowGirl 3 - The Fonz, Llama Fluff, Jebus
Llama Fluff 1 - massive
Massive 1 - EA

Not Voting: Jahudo, BA

With 11 players alive, it takes 6 to lynch.

[ShadowGirl]

First yes, you seemed to be trying to defend Stef by firstly trying to counter the line of questioning CKD was starting, and secondly by trying to calm him down instead of taking a strong stance on the conversation that was occuring. Your post was more on a way to ignore the entire string of events, you completely fence sat on if Stef was scum, and tried to calm him down. Also nice WIFOM defense at the end there.

I had no problems with the line of questioning (did I say anything of the sort?) and as to why I didn't discourage it. Having no prior playing experience with Stef, I didn't know if this was his typical behaviour (taking things so hard and all). As well, why shouldn't I calm him down? The way he was playing was detrimental to town. About the last part (as I explained to Jahudo) :

Of course, it's still a possiblity - I just meant in terms of percentages that it's more likely someone in such a case wouldn't have.

First of all, I dont see how someone claiming vanilla the way tajo did can ever be seen as a nulltell, hell even if someone like Nat did that I would be wanting them lynched. Now you are pulling the "well I was right" card on tajo flipping town, which I dont think surprised you. What you did do though is use Stef to incriminate Tajo in your 11th post. Since you saw tajo who you called town, slightly scummy for defending stef, who you also saw as town. In your 14 though, you change this around, and are trying to make Stef scum because tajo is scum, which gave you reasoning not to carry through with any case on Stef day 2. Much like BA was accused of doing.

As I've said before, I've played with Tajo before so I wasn't completely surprised with his theatrics, so no, I wasn't surprised that he flipped town. I didn't view Stef as town (and have not said so) - I viewed him as neutral - his behaviour was either scummy or very anti-town. As well, am I not allowed to change my views after a page and a half and more information has come to light? As well, my fourteenth dealt less with Stef-Tajo scum and more on the possiblity of Tajo being scum by himself (being that he was deflecting attention back onto stef).

You implied this paring multiple times (your 11 and 14 are the best examples of this)

Implied, yes. Not say 'if one flips scum the other must be'. If one flipped scum I would certainly take a closer look at the other, no doubt - but that did not gurantee the other to be scum.

[ShadowGirl]

Prod on: Spring, Massive, BA?

/*
* Prodded.
*/

[springlullaby]

I'm still sold on BA scum. My alternative would be massive.

[BlakAdder]

wtf, my posts keep disappearing.
Anyway, I don't know who to suspect at this point. If I had to pick one person, it would probably be SL, because she hasn't posted anything. I know this is hypocritical, but I'm starting to doubt my suspicions of Jebus that I had earlier, and SL would be next in line.
So, for lack of a better option,

vote: SpringLullaby

[The Fonz]

I'm still sold on BA scum. My alternative would be massive.

Why?

[LlamaFluff]

@BA - How long untill you move your vote for self preservation?
@SL - Thoughts on SG?
@Massive/EA - Is SG or BA more likely scum?

[BlakAdder]

What do you mean by that question?

[Jahudo]

Mod: massive hasn't posted in 10 days anywhere on the site. If deadline is still Jan. 19, can he be replaced soon to give the replacement a chance to read?

/*
* I'll try to find a replacement for Massive.
*/

[springlullaby]

I'm still sold on BA scum. My alternative would be massive.

Why?

Why what? My opinion on your reason to think that BA is town is that it relies on appeal to emotion and outguessing how far scum can go to make themselves look town. IMO looking town is the easiest part of the scum job, especially in a situation like facing what is most probably a crap town gambit.

You see, if scum catch anyone lying about a result in a multi scum group game, what do you think their reaction would be?

I think it would be that they've caught scum. Which make faking outrage all the more easy.

Then observe how BA has ignored the game this entire day, leaving his vote on Jebus on the ground that he caught her in a lie, but now is switching his vote on me out of nowhere. I see no reason why his evaluation of Jebus would change now if he were town.

@Lama. I've read SG as town all day and don't see quite where this is going. The only thing that I haven't liked is her saying that you are exaggerating her suspicion. Imo, town pretty much never argue that they are less suspicious of someone then it appears. But I still think BA and massive are scummier.

[The Fonz]

I'm still sold on BA scum. My alternative would be massive.

Why?

Why what? My opinion on your reason to think that BA is town is that it relies on appeal to emotion and outguessing how far scum can go to make themselves look town. IMO looking town is the easiest part of the scum job, especially in a situation like facing what is most probably a crap town gambit.

That's not my argument.

But more to the point- that's a reason not to defend him, not to suspect him in the first place.

You see, if scum catch anyone lying about a result in a multi scum group game, what do you think their reaction would be?

I'm not sure you entirely understand Jebus' argument, but whatever.

I think it would be that they've caught scum. Which make faking outrage all the more easy.

Then observe how BA has ignored the game this entire day, leaving his vote on Jebus on the ground that he caught her in a lie, but now is switching his vote on me out of nowhere. I see no reason why his evaluation of Jebus would change now if he were town.

Well, he's changed his vote, not necessarily his assessment. I can think of some town reasons for doing that- namely, that no-one agreed with him.

@Lama. I've read SG as town all day and don't see quite where this is going. The only thing that I haven't liked is her saying that you are exaggerating her suspicion. Imo, town pretty much never argue that they are less suspicious of someone then it appears. But I still think BA and massive are scummier.

What do you like about her play, then?

[springlullaby]

I read her as town, and that is.

[The Fonz]

Why do you read her as town?

(Oh Look! Is that stone bleeding?)

[springlullaby]

Frankly, I don't remember, but I think it was her entrance in this game that struck me as town.

[ShadowGirl]

wtf, my posts keep disappearing.
Anyway, I don't know who to suspect at this point. If I had to pick one person, it would probably be SL, because she hasn't posted anything. I know this is hypocritical, but I'm starting to doubt my suspicions of Jebus that I had earlier, and SL would be next in line.
So, for lack of a better option,

vote: SpringLullaby

You're flopping, once again. While do I agree that she hasn't been posting much, do you have anything more substantial on her?

@SL: Do you think that from my posts that I seemed definitively certain that if one flipped scum the other was for sure? (I believe that's what me and LF are going back and forth about.)

[LlamaFluff]

What do you mean by that question?

Quite simple really, are you going to vote SG at deadline for self-preservation?

[Claus]

Xtomx replaces massive, effective immediately!

Thanks Xtomx!

[Xtoxm]

Hi.

I glanced at a couple isolations. I believe EA's claim, when I was reading through it (because I knew the kills) I thought maybe he vigged Ooba...Then he claim vig on Ooba.

Vote Spring

Lurking, seen her lurk as scum.

Also glanced at SG's, but was far too long to make much of.