Mini 727 - Mafia in Standardville - Game Over

[LlamaFluff]

Vote Count

BSG (4) - Alvinz95, Xdaamno, Panzerjager, Charter
Artem (3) - Danchaofan, BSG, Lynx the Antithesis
Master Ruck (1) - Lunar_Tick
Artifex (1) - Lowell

Not Voting (3) - Artem, Master Ruck, Artifex

[Danchaofan]

oo I have been focused a bit on artem... I have some scum vibes; I'm trying to decipher why. Meanwhile, other people, please respond to questions, comments made toward you:

And no, Charter's vote wasn't WIFOM. You made it WIFOM in your own mind. I can see two reasons why Charter would put me at L-2. And none of those reasons includes WIFOM. I'm waiting for him to tell his reason. From that I'll look if it was scummy or not.

is this wifom:

Isnt the WIFOM in question that Panzer said it was scummy to put someone at L-2, then Charter immediately did it as a response to what Panzer said...no scum would open themselves up to scrutiny like that. Or would they, knowing we'd all think that? Or *switching wine, switching wine*

@Everyone asking Artem why he didn't vote: Thats what an FoS is. A public statement expressing that you feel someone is suspicious but not sure that they are actually scum. After the random voting stage, you should only vote someone you intend to lynch.

I think it's okay to vote the person you are most suspicious of regardless of whether you want to see them lynched (yet).

I await Lowell's memory

Lynx/panzer wasn't there something about the distinction of l-2 being it's claim time?

(posts bigger than avatars give me goose bumps, posts that don't fit on my screen scare me :< )

[Lowell]

Okay here's how the first 2 pages look to me.

9-11- the banter between artem and artifex makes me uneasy
30- charter's post is strange, he chides panzer, then votes with him
33- artem gives a speech about "how many votes is scummy" then unvotes artifex [what was the point?], then only FOSs charter [??]
35- BSG hits it RIGHT ON THE NOSE
38-40- more uncomfortable banter from artem and artifex

What I don't like is (a) the banter between

artem

and

artifex

, which seems to keep happening, and (b) the odd vote/unvote by artem on artifex. It's like he voted for artifex to set up a lecture about the nature of votes, then unvoted, only to FOS someone he said he was actually suspicious of. It looks like he was throwing a token "distancing" vote to a scumbuddy early, then just flimsily moving somewhere else. There's so much buddying here that I think at least one of them is scum.

Generally, I just think they're lazy as well. BSG was the random choice for a few votes at the beginning. Then, somehow, it became something one had to

explain

when they weren't voting for BSG. I think they're happy letting the initial pressure dictate what happens, which itself is very scummy.

BSG

has handled the pressure well, I think. Post 35 is exactly on the money and he seems to be payign attention genearlly.

Lynx

I just think is town because he's active and not trying to kiss ass.

One more. Despite

charter

's strange post 30, I think he's town as well. I like the fact that he's willing to take BSG up to L-2 just to see what happens. That strikes me as gutsy, and townish.

[Lowell]

Also, I will be on

V/LA until Wednesday morning

. Sorry all.

[Artem]

(a) I would argue that I had just as much "banter" with BSG as I did with Artifex. Mafia is not srs bsns to me.

(b) If I voted for my buddy to distance myself from them, why would I unvote them when they were not in any danger, especially since I didn't vote for anybody else?

[LlamaFluff]

Lunar_Tick has requested replacement. Searching for one now.

[PJ.]

So voting someone you find scummier then everyone else is scummy and attacking an easy target? Riiiiiiight. Also, if you FoS someone who is claimed scum, you clearly are a poor player. Assuming their are no Jester-esque roles, you lynch the claimed scum, period.

Artem, I wanted you to answer that.

@danchao: yes there are occasions where voting is okay when you don't want to see someone lynched, but a good part of the time, that's when you vote. When you wouldn't mind that person being lynched.

[PJ.]

EBWOP: Also, yes L-2 is generally claim time. Sometimes L-2 and definently L-1.

[Master Ruck]

But as BSG said (and lynx directly before him who may have given him the idea) he has nothing to worry about thus no need to claim as all the votes on him are random or "let's see what happens" votes.

[LlamaFluff]

Darox replaces Lunar_Tick, effective immediately

[Darox]

Right then, let's cause some havoc. Reading.

Unvote

[alvinz95]

Hi reread coming.

[alvinz95]

EBWOP: *Read not reread Haven't followed game.

[Danchaofan]

But as BSG said (and lynx directly before him who may have given him the idea) he has nothing to worry about thus no need to claim as all the votes on him are random or "let's see what happens" votes.

Pz's post was in response to my question about whether l-2 is possibly distinguishable because it was generally claim time, not about whether BSG should be claiming.

Artem, (b) is Wifom?

Lowell, what do you think of artem/BSGs banter? Is it insignificant because there was no distancing associated with it?

[Artifex]

One of your main suspicions of me is 'buddying/banter' that 'seems to keep happening' and your evidence of this is

38-40- more uncomfortable banter from artem and artifex

?? I must have a completely different definition of banter than you. BSG said she didnt see the WIFOM, but I did and I pointed it out, and Artem said he and I were talking about the same thing. I dont see how we're bantering with each other. I also dont really see how this 'seems to keep happening' if you're basing it off of 3 posts over half the game ago.

Generally, I just think they're lazy as well. BSG was the random choice for a few votes at the beginning. Then, somehow, it became something one had to

explain

when they weren't voting for BSG. I think they're happy letting the initial pressure dictate what happens, which itself is very scummy.

I also feel there was something at play during the BSG buildup- there were a lot of players involved in it, and I'm still waiting for explanations from a few of those players. My intentions regarding the BSG voting were centered around Xdaamno, and not BSG.

One more. Despite

charter

's strange post 30, I think he's town as well. I like the fact that he's willing to take BSG up to L-2 just to see what happens. That strikes me as gutsy, and townish.

All questions of whether it's suspicious or not that he did this aside- how is it actively

townish

to take someone up to L-2 'just to see what happens'?

[Lynx The Antithesis]

Artem, I would put someone at L-2 just to see what happens. Mostly, as a means of pressure to see how the wagonee would react. However, the part most of us find scummy is the fact that charter placed the L-2 directly after Panzer stated it was scummy to do so. This is a direct challenge to it and entirely WIFOM(why would I place the vote if I knew it was scummy? What scum would be so boisterous?)

And just for everyone's info as Master Ruck has stated, I first said BSG has nothing to worry about because most of the votes on her were random. So don't jump to the conclusion that BSG is a calm townie because I may have instilled some sense of safety in her without hearing from her first. Fault on me cause it defeats any purpose of gauging her reaction from the wagon.

[PJ.]

Ya know what, This game needs to move

Unvote, Vote Charter

Charter right now is my top suspect and when he comes back I expect answers to my question(s) about him. Also, I have absolutely nothing on BSG, she's played beautifully. I don't even know if she is coming back though. Send her a PM maybe? Has anyone else not checked in?

[BSG]

I'm typing my post right now. Just wait patiently. Thanks for the compliment though . I want to thank the penguin for that.

[BSG]

(b) If I voted for my buddy to distance myself from them, why would I unvote them when they were not in any danger, especially since I didn't vote for anybody else?

Don't like this. Isn't this WIFOM?

Mod, if possible, could you tell us why Lunar_Tick requested replacement?

I can understand it if you aren't allowed to answer this question.

Okay, I can see the WIFOM now after reading Lynx's post. It seems we're all waiting for Charter to respond to this. I would like to hear a respond from Xdaamno after Charter's response as well.
I'll post more about post 90, but Charter needs to respond before I go further into post 90.

@Artifex
I'll post my thoughts about the players eventually. I think I can place some players already, but there are many of whom we have almost nothing. And some events need some explanations before I can fully understand everybody's thoughts about them. Eventually, I'll post them here.

Also, Charter gets back the 11th so let the countdown start

[PJ.]

Alvinz: Lurker. Post or Ask for Replacement.

Artem: Playing scummish right now, Possibly could be newbie town. At some points his actions seem calculated and some seem like he doesn't know which way is up. Maybe newb scum trying to look for a rock or maybe newb town trying to find the ropes.

Artifex: Asking some questions, trying to scum hunt. A little too concerned with whether or not she looks scum with Artem. Neutral read.

BSG:Playing very well for a newbie. Newbie town for now.

Charter: I've already posted my thoughts on charter.

Danchaofan: More sitting by the sidelines but I get the feeling he isgoing the patient method of trying to catch scum. If he doesn't attempt to scum hunt in the future, I'll start to find him suspicious.

Darox: Just replaced a lurker. Post please

Lowell: Chronic Lurker, post or be lynched, because I know you'll post enough to avoid replacement.

Lynx: I don't really know, makes some good points but also trys to swing things. neutral.

Master Ruck: Was kinda giving me a townish read but has since disappeared. Nuetral

Xdaamno: disappeared afterrandom stage. scummish. Due to when he disappeared. Hasn't made many if any relevent post.

[PJ.]

EBWOP: Panzejager is town.

[Master Ruck]

Sorry. I disappeared as I now have 3 other games I'm in and trying to catch up on all of them takes quite a bit of time. I'm not gonna bother saying who I think is town, but instead who I think looks (vaguely) scum.

Charter, obviously, looks bad to me unless he comes up with a damn good explanation otherwise it will look like a lame scum tactic to cover his tracks. Though, this early in the game it would be hard to tell.

Alvinz I'm gonna hold back on until he says something as town and scum alike may have reasons to lurk.

Artem may be made to look scummish through the arguments presented against him/that he gets involved in, but it may also be scum mistakes so I'll be watching him for a bit until I feel more certain about him.

Dan

feels

like town, but he needs to stop lurking else he looks like scum.

Lastly, Darox remains an unknown as he replaced a lurker. Again, town and scum alike may have reason to lurk, so my views on him will be made based on what he says and how long it takes for him to say it.

I'm pretty much caught up on all my games now so I should be able to post a bit more often.

[Xdaamno]

Hmm... player-by-player analyses are good for content and poor for scumhunting

Xdaamno: disappeared afterrandom stage. scummish. Due to when he disappeared. Hasn't made many if any relevent post.

Yeah, yeah, I'll try and post more. Can you pinpoint 'scumish'?

[PJ.]

Scummish because once the game became "serious buisness" so to speak, you were gone.

[charter]

Why would town want to balance on the fine edge of WIFOM?

FoS: charter

I don't see how what I did is WIFOM at all. I call it scumhunting.

I'm not a huge fan of the Artem L-2 vote from charter, but I do find it interesting that Artem didn't vote. There's no reason not to vote. I think Artem is being careful not to draw the same attention he received from his first vote.

Vote:Artem

I put BSG at L-2, note Artem. Just clarifying.

Unvote Vote Artem

From the looks of it, your RVS vote was the only with a serious side attached to it. The only other player who could have a serious reason attached to it, would have been Xdaamno, but I'm not sure about that yet. So I don't see why you would unvote and not vote another player.
You also accused Artifex for going after an easy target as she voted Xdaamno, who had put me at L-4. However, you FoSed the player who put me at L-2. Aren't you doing the same as of which you accused Artifex?
And I don't see the WIFOM. I can see two reasons why Charter put me at L-2. But I'll let Charter respond to this first.

Just like Dfan, I'm wondering why you didn't vote.

You answered the bolded part yourself.

Because if I voted, I would be doing exactly what I voted Artifex for, making me a hypocrite.

charter deserves a FoS, because of the WIFOM. There is, however, a reason for a townie to do what he did. So, yes, let's have charter respond to it first.

I don't see hypocricy if you had voted. Also, why would you Fos someone when there are TOWN reasons for their actions? That makes no sense.

What I

do

find interesting is that you're so concerned with whether I voted or FoSed somebody, while completely disregarding my given reasons. You said that you don't see the WIFOM. It was pointed out to you. Yet you seem adamant about your opinion of charter putting you at L-2.

I can FoS charter. I can also vote for him. It doesn't make much difference right now as there is no bandwagon on him. I'm not pouncing on an easy target. I'm giving him a slap on the wrist, because townies (assuming he is one) shouldn't play with WIFOM as it distracts and confuses the town.

The fact that you're pouncing on me, while disregarding my arguments against charter tells me that you're really not so worried about the bandwagon on yourself. Why would that be? (One scenario may be that charter (or somebody else on your wagon for that matter) is/are (one of) your buddy(-ies), so you know that they may unvote you at any point to prevent a lynch of you.)

Unvote, Vote Artem

Why are you assuming I am town on page 2? Even moreso because you find me suspicious. Why would BSG be worried about the wagon on herself? Did even one person give a serious reason for voting her?

@Charter, Why the WIFOM? It's scummy to put someone at L-2(which is claim zone) for no reason, so why did you do knowing that it would be WIFOM. You're an experianced player, you should know better.Unvote, FoS:Charter

Disagree. Putting someone at L-2 when most votes are not serious is not time to claim, nor do I see how it is scummy. What advantage would I gain as scum doing that I wouldn't gain as town? Why did I do it? I wanted to see how BSG reacted. I wanted to see if anyone would unvote. I wanted to see if anyone defended BSG. I do apologize for leaving you guys hanging right after I said it, but I was in Florida with no access.

Maybe I have a slightly more fundamental issue. What's wrong with going after easy targets? i.e. if someone outright states they are mafia, are they an easy target? Should you vote for them? (assuming nothing crazy like suicide roles.)

Going after easy targets is scum tactics. Town goes after scum, not whoever they can lynch easiest. For me, it depends on how someone claims mafia (though it doesn't occur frequently enough to worry about) before I decide whether to vote them, but many players have policies of voting anyone claiming mafia.

If I missed something let me know. For now my top two suspects are Artem and Panzer.