Mini 730 - Hard Nights in the City - OVER!

[geraintm]

/confirm and 4

just a note to all. i don't really post at weekend

[geraintm]

just a note to all. i don't really post at weekend

I really hope you're on the mafia's side.

nope
you think it will hurt us that much?
i just don't get access at the weekends, the other 5 days i am pretty good thouhg. the onyl other problem i sometimes have is i amin the UK and so time zones can get out o synch.

anyways, are we all in yet?

[geraintm]

why the what?
i was just asking if he realyl thought me not posting 2 days a week would be that bad?

[geraintm]

i was just asking if he realyl thought me not posting 2 days a week would be that bad?

12.) If you do not post for a full deadline game day you will be modkilled. Further, you will be blacklisted from any future games I run.

... So, yeah. Also, learn to type, both of you.

then i need replacing from this game, as i cannot guarantee that i will be able to post every single 24 hours this game is running, if that is what mod meant.

[geraintm]

Back after weekend
am not being replaced or dropping from the game

discussion always helps town. that is my stand.

lack of discussion, or allowing some people to not take part fully is what really hurts town.

And Juls, you haven't voted yet. Why?

Because nothing has compelled me to vote yet. I was thinking about throwing a joke vote out there but conversation got underway. I don't think don_johnson is scummy for self voting and I don't thing megatheory is scummy for making a huge deal out of it. I am watching and reading and when I get ready to place a vote I will do so.

Sounds like scum sitting in the background waiting for a convenient wagon... =P

really?
juls post seemed pretty sane to me, i didn't think it was worth such a strong calling out over it

Unvote

I like Danchaofan's reaction to the votes that came his way and he seems pretty townish so far.

this feels like buttering up to me

I have to agree. I'd really like to see where this goes.

Vote: Juls

well, as i fell juls had nothing to answer for, you jumping onto such a tiny wagon...well, i really don't like it

Ok, my posts last Friday with the whole "why the what?" thing

i knew exactly what he meant.
i actually deliberately put in such an obvious line into my post 15, the "you think it will hurt us that much? " just for shits and giggles really. i thought it was such an over the top attempt to appear clueless newbie town it was funny, it wasn't meant to generate a page of discussion about it. i didn't really get why he called it WIFOM, i was expecting him to just tell me off for trying to be so obviously town.

[geraintm]

This is the second time somebody has taken that statement seriously (or am I just imagining the "=P"?) and

that

starts to worry me.

i actually deliberately put in such an obvious line into my post 15, the "you think it will hurt us that much? " just for shits and giggles really. i thought it was such an over the top attempt to appear clueless newbie town it was funny, it wasn't meant to generate a page of discussion about it.

This is a very poor retroactive excuse for something that IMHO shouldn't need one.

FoS: Geraintm

sorry, i didnt realise the =P meant it was a joke
my post was on day one, still in the pregame stage, i thought some silly posting was ok then. problem was 5 pages of posts when by before i could realyl explain myself.
it is a dead issue though

Q: who was speculating on don/maga pairing, i missed that.
and frankly, whoever it was should stop, it is almost impossible to succesffuly hunt scum day one but to get at pairings just tends to set up the town for bad lynches day two.

[geraintm]

Hey geraintm, how about you read the thread yourself instead of asking others to look back for you. Then you'll be able to make serious contributions instead of generic townie strategy that's been mentioned before and you're probably only saying to try and appear townie yourself!

i've looked
post 84 had the two of them down as the most scummy in a list, but didn't say they were a pair
post 96 by don is where he makes mention of them being treated as a scum pairing
i just don't know why he said that though.

[geraintm]

I *hate* day 1, I honestly don't care who we lynch. There, I said it.

i actually sorta agree with this in a meta way. has anyoen done the stats on this over the whole site, what % of day one lynches are mafia compared with the number of mafia? i strongly suspect mafia come out best and town would be better off random lynching day one...

And at this time, the only thing that I will claim is that I am town. Anything other than that, power role or vanilla, will be for a later time if I get back to L-1 with good reasoning (if you guys give me the time to respond before hammering, that is).

terrible post

vote insanepenguin02

I will claim when I need to in order to protect my role.

i want you to proper claim. your post is like when someone gets told they have a pressure vote on them to see their reaction. i want a proper reaction from you, not just a halfway claim like that which just invites closer examination.

And apparently we have all forgotten about a possible scum connection between don and mega? I would like to hear more on this as I still have a feeling that there is a connection there.

what connection??? i can't see it? who pushed this, i asked earlier and i really can't see who has said this first or why. will you exlain it to me penguin?

[geraintm]

@ ger - So you say that D-1 lynches should pretty much be random and then you hope on the wagon on me? Honestly guys, you should look yourselves in the mirror and ask who the real hypocrites are...

no, i figure that because of knowledge mafia has, day one lynches get a worse % result that if the town decided to lynch randomly. Obv, no one does that though, kinda not fun

and i decided to vote for you because of your evasive claiming. wasn't hopping on a wagon, was deciding to vote for you for good reasons.

Unvote: Insanepenguin, Vote Juls

.
I've noted Juls doing some questionable things in previous posts and she's now about my second scummiest. Probably would like to get to a reread of her and perhaps Mega later. For now, I think that's a fine place to put my vote.

people already don't like people voting their thrid scummiest. now you are voting only your second...

You refused to claim unless you were voted for "good reasons," but that's not for you to decide. Apparently, the town has judged the reasons against you and found them good enough to put you at L-1. That's the appropriate time for you to claim, whether you like it or not. It's moot now since you've claimed, but I'm bringing it up because this action has done nothing but make me suspect you more.

basically quoting this to show this was why i voted for the penguin

I'm still not liking geraintm. His posts reek of unhelpful, low contributing scum. It might be early to make that judgment, but I definitely see a pattern forming.

sorry you get this feeling. no one really asks me anything though (i am not realyl involved in any of the major threads of the game), so i have to circle the discussion and not being online when otehrs are, i can't really get into a conversation so have to save my posts and reply to everything at once.

Post 170 to Canadian bovine

you can't accuse porkens of being jumpy and then yourself just vote for the person who he switched his vote to. if you think the penguin is vote worthy, bit much to jump on him for thinking and doing the same!

I will say that I agree with you, Mega, that the 'primary reason' behind suspicions against IP (the 'he voted the player he ranked third scummiest) isn't a major scumtell; I found that his reactions (especially that shameless WIFOM defense he used, which was, for me, the last straw that made me want to vote him), however, to be fairly strong scumtells, especially for this point in the game.

mien was the total evasiveness when called on to claim.

to penguin, how do you hope to prove you are a tracker if given a night to survive?

[geraintm]

quote="Plum"]

Answer to Geraintm: I'm voting my secoond scumiest because IP has claimed a powerrole and hasn't been counterclaimed. [/quote]

so penguin was your scummiest then, just the lack of counterclaim..
got you

Still...why do people still have their votes on IP?

felt like a good place at the time to put mine, and seen nowhere better to put it

nameless - your scum team post just makes me go argh!
i hate posts like that on day one, i think they are worse for the town that anything. i consider it an attempt to throw mud in our eyes. just terrible. you better start posting better cause i am very tempted to vote for you, my own little lynch all liars mantra is lynch all who attempt to guess on day one the entire scum team...

and your last post, 203, where you admit that you think there are people scummier than your 3 man scum team, i am so confused now what you are trying to achieve?
my opinion of you now is very unhelpful townie or something much worse...

[geraintm]

What I'm saying is that I'm seeing some connections between those three, which during a later day might be worth examining. I'm trying to achieve that if one of the flips scum later in the game the town might use those possible connections to spur discussion/investigation. I didn't actually intend for people to start suddenly debating over it. Really.

think you woul dhave much better been served keeping it to yourself rather than voice your thinkings.
by my count, you sound like you have about half the town pegged as scum by now...

[geraintm]

i generally tend to be slo in placing votes and slow in changing them
i felt at the time penguin was the best person to vote for
i have not found anyone yet who i think is vote-worthy. i am sure there will be something over the weekend to make me change my mind

[geraintm]

don, it was just a follow on from his post, where he named three people. i have no clue how many scum are in the game. it is just poor choice of words, no more no less

[geraintm]

unvote

why do you think nameless named three? does that strike you as suspicious(aside from the

general

suspiciousness of the statement)?

at the time, i didn't think anything of it.

what stirkes me as odd is that he would choose three as his number. two night kills, one a beheading, and he chooses a "three" player scum team. are you thinking two or three scum? my thought is that tossing out a three player scum team may be an sk trying to throw town off track. i am speculating, but until more discussion ensues or nameless comes up with something better my vote will stay. consider it a pressure vote at this point.

ok, am i missing something here.
mod killed sheriff and deputy. he didn't kill any players, he just made sure we knew there was no cop or deputy in the game.

i didn't ever at any point think that these were killed by scum or sk. i just assumed it was there for flavour, mod telling us this game had no cop in it and we weren't getting it.
or am i really being thick about this?
am i the only one who thinks this????
no one else at all has brought this up all weekend?????

sorry for so many ?s, but i find this point just bewildering.

from this, i have to say i don;t think it is unlikely there is isn't a tracker in the game, fits flavour wise with the lack of cops. when penguin said something about can he reveal his message from mod, that i liked because i thought in this game it would be likely mod had put in something like that.
i don't normally try and meta the game setup and mod, seemed a tiny help there though

juls post 224 - yeah, i did it for fun. it was day one, before the game had begun. when else do you suggest doing things for fun??

re: leaving my vote on. i suppose i could have taken it off, but i felt totally sure that he wasn't going to get lynched over the weekend, and if he did then the risk i took him getting lynched was worth it to see who lynched him

RE: people planning penguin's future. not worth it, game will get twisted so much so fast, can't just plan now to ride one player like that.

plum - i am not lurking. i post nearly ever week day. that ain't lurking.

Post #126: He claims he doesn't realize an emoticon means something is a joke then spouts very generic advice about scumpairing. Nothing remotely substantive here.

the emoiticon was =P, one i don't use ever myself. i missed it. i think someone else did too.

re: random lynching. sorry if my post was misunderstood. my job is stats so i was just sorta going through the maths of day ones. i was trying to talk in a vague sense in response to someone else's comment

Further, he votes IP in the same post. Right after Nameless takes his vote off, geraintm is the one that puts him back at L-1. His only reasoning: wanting a proper claim. He is the one that forced IP to claim his power role. He jumped from "we should random vote" to pressuring IP for a "proper claim". This early? Very suspicious.

why was this suspicious? penguin hadn't claimed, i felt he should not be allowed to get away without a proper claim. hence my vote? it wasn't a jump from random vote to my vote for penguin, the random vote thing was purely a meta discussion.

can i ask how my line about penguin being the best person to vote for at the time contradicts me voting for him for evasive claiming?
i really don't get the contradiction there?

Heya, Geraintm, let me dig up a quote:

i generally tend to be slo in placing votes and slow in changing them
i felt at the time penguin was the best person to vote for
i have not found anyone yet who i think is vote-worthy. i am sure there will be something over the weekend to make me change my mind

Well??? And did this mean that your preferred lynch at the time was IP (potential Tracker IP, that is)? Expound, if you please.

when i voted for penguin, i felt at the time the best person to be voting for was penguin. he hadn't claimed tracker at that stage. what do you need me to expand on?

post 279 - why are people looking at my join date? i had i think about a years gap in there somewhere, and i am not a massive player, i normally have one newbie/one larger game on the go at once.

[geraintm]

Post #126: He claims he doesn't realize an emoticon means something is a joke then spouts very generic advice about scumpairing. Nothing remotely substantive here.

the emoiticon was =P, one i don't use ever myself. i missed it. i think someone else did too.

I'll look back and see who that "someone else" was since I know you will not. Even with that though, I'm not buying it. It is none-the-less suspicious.

it was post 63
what aren't you buying?
go read my post on the 12th when i made mention of the line from dan. it wasn't a big deal i made, i was just a query to him. i don't know why you are bashing me with it so much...

[quote"geraintm"]re: random lynching. sorry if my post was misunderstood. my job is stats so i was just sorta going through the maths of day ones. i was trying to talk in a vague sense in response to someone else's comment

I don't think it was misunderstood at all. It

was

vague. That's the reason it stood out to me as suspicious. It looks like a vague suggestion for a random lynch.[/quote]

where on earth did i suggest random lynching for this game? i made no push for a random lynch in this game or any game (except a weird themed mirrodin one i played last year but that was a really weird case and it was a lynching, it was a seruming)

I *hate* day 1, I honestly don't care who we lynch. There, I said it.

i actually sorta agree with this in a meta way. has anyone done the stats on this over the whole site, what % of day one lynches are mafia compared with the number of mafia? i strongly suspect mafia come out best and town would be better off random lynching day one...

that is the bit you are attacking me for, you are using this as my attempt to push for a random lynch in this game as something scummy i have done. but please point out where i did that in this post or elsewhere. i put in the phrase "sorta agree with this in a meta way" to clearly take this part of my post outside this game...

Even with the random lynch jump aside, you put him back at L-1 and forced a power role to claim.

what was wrong with me getting him to claim. he had been very vague in his claiming, and i felt there was no way a player could be that vague and be allowed to get away with it
here, i'll try it too. i have a power role. but i am not going to tell you till you really mean you want to know what it is....

does that work? cause that is what penguin had done.

It is because you stood behind your vote even after he had claimed.

i said i didn't have anywhere else better to put it so didn't move it, that is different to saying i still felt he was going to get lynched.
someone asked me what about the risks of a bandwagon forming over the weekend when i was there, well i thought if that did happen, would have been worth leaving my vote there to see it occur.

so far, from what i can see, you have me as scum for not spotting a smiley, for suggesting a random lynch, for forcing penguin to fully claim and for not taking my vote off. that right?

plum, i brought up the night zero kills because there had been discussion of possible sk because of the two kills, i wanted to kill that discussion till there is some evidence. i didn't mean to sidetrack talk today now with that, i was trying to kill talk on a pointless topic of the existence of a SK.

For another, jumping onto Porkens' 'I don't really care too much about who gets lynched Day 1' statement in what I read as a scum jumping to agree with [someone else, alignment irrelevant] for his benefit - he didn't indicate that he felt this way until Porkens came out with his style of Day 1 play. Seems to set up a situation where he can advocate a random lynch. Not good. Random lynches mean no info out of Day 1 at all, which is bad. Even Porkens doesn't seem to want to completely waste Day 1.

grrr. i didn't advocate it. my post clearly was meant for outside the game. why on earth would i bring it up unless someone else had, porkens, because it really has no place in this game. i was just sharing my thought on the matter because someone else had.
but please point to where i pushed for a random lynch. please. i never have. my post basically was saying that i thought the sums were town would have a better chance of lynching scum day one when they have no info by going random than trying to work out who the scum were, but i know that is never going to happen as defeats the whole point of playing mafia.

Geraintm's initial IP vote

seemed

to come after his 'I'm town-aligned and we'll see about a full claim later' post, with such as a main reason, which I actually don't mind too much. It looked evasive, useless, and kinda weird. After that, I might have pused hard for a full claim as well (I happened to get to the thread only after both the 'town' claim and the 'Tracker' claim had been posted, if I recall).

glad you wrote this. you seem to agree that i was justified to vote for penguin. i should have just put this as my reply to Atronach rather than writing it myself.

Keeping his vote on after the claim was another thing altogether. As Atronach said, the reason for voting was to pressure him to claim, he claimed a Townie powerrole, and Geraintm kept his vote on IP. On the one hand, that's a vote for a reason that's now obselete, and secondly it was both a useless and scummy place to put the vote. Useless because IP wasn't going to get lynched at that point, no way no how, so there was no potential info out of it. Scummy because it implied that his preferred lynch at that point was IP despite the Tracker claim.

ok, everyone really dislikes that i didn't unvote. am sorry. it won't happen in this game again.

At one point Mega wrote that Geraintm looked like 'unhelpful, low contributing scum.' After reading Atronach's case and Geraintm's weak response to it, which incidentially did not address someof the things I consider scummiest very well, I feel fairly confident that Geraintm's a good lynch.

which bits did you find scummiest? i have tried to answer as best i can.
[/i]

[geraintm]

i don't know why you are bashing me with it so much...

Plea to emotion.

nope, gen puzzlement, the whole thing has been gone over so many time over so many weeks.

I don't think it's scummy to suggest a random lynch day 1. What is scummy-est is all the backpedaling about this statement that you've done.

i didn't suggest it though, my post was making a meta-guess that town is better off random lynching day one. i didn't suggest it. i didn't say, hey porkens, as we both agree this why don't we get some dice rolling and pick a target...
here are 2 days left. i am being psuhed towards a lynch and i really, really don't want the next 2 days to be wasted with me being pushed up towards 7 days. i want to forestall that as quickly as possible if people want me to, but that needs to be sorted out in the next 4 hours because i go away for the night then.

[geraintm]

Atronach - i forgot he was in the game for a long time, he seemed under the radar to me
then he pushed an attack on me, i am not sure if he really believes all he has written. the things he has one me, i would never consider them scummy on someone else

canadian bovine - post on Fri Jan 16, 2009 11:57 pm
and Posted: Sat Jan 17, 2009 12:45 am
mentions SK. not sure why. why bring it up, is this cause newbie stepping into a game with the possibility of SK confuses them, but as i have said elsewhere i don't think we have any evidence of the existence yet of this.
not sure why the vote on choas

chaos - lurked, nothing to go on. 6 posts total. if this game didn't have sucha quick deadline he would be on 3 or 4 votes by now as pressure

dan - "IP: any flavour on tracker? " this one line i noted and liked. makes me think he got some flavour in his role and was hoping penguin would have something similar. this might be something tiny to go on, but i buy dan as town

don - Mon Jan 12, 2009 2:01 am his post here where he brings up the "more than one player has speculated at the megatheory/don_johnson scum pairing"
i never saw this.
up to this point, i found his posts to be pretty wishy washy, full of quantity but very little quality. i don't find his posts helpful in trying to find scum at all. too often responding to others comments, pressuring them to talk more or him directly asking questions, the whole doc thing, just a waste of time...same with any mention of SK

penguin - hated the way he tried to not claim, really really hated it. if you get to l-1 and people want you to claim, you do it.
if scum, then picked a good role to claim.

juls - seems ok, done decent posting, gotten really sidetracked with the tracker thing.

mega - fixated on penguin for a long long time
Posted: Tue Jan 20, 2009 5:53 am
this post has don and nameless as top lynch targets, not sure why nameless
sad he didn't make any mention of my post on the night zero kills which were just above him, i wanted credit.
seems happy now to let others make cases on who to lynch and follow. just not getting a good feeling on him, seems eager to find a wagon to jump onto.

nameless - was happy with postings for much of the game, but about the time of the triple scum team
hopped on bandwagon now of me. not sure why. think he just has me as bad player and is happy if i am gone. if that is the case, then lazythinking.

plum - seemed fine, can't get passed how he jumped on my wagon after Atronach post. on monday, plum named nameless, porkens, don and dan all ahead of me in scum lists, and seemed very happy to jump towards me. said some of the reasons atronach's reasons he doesn't agree with, but picks me up for the pushing the random lynch - why didn't plum go after me weeks ago when i made this, and the whole joke i tried to make in my first posts, again, why only use this now to attack me as scum? i don't mind leaving the vote thing on, i've said sorry before as i didn't think it was sucha huge deal but i'll clearly not make that mistake again

porkens, - not really much to go on

overall, a couple of people i like, some i don't, either because i feel they jumped onto wagons or have been looking for them, one who has lurked

not the best reread, done as fast as i could as time is of the essence, but those are my general thoughts on the other players.

[geraintm]

chaos
don
mega
plum
they seem the worst to me. lynching them different matter, if i thought they needed lynching i woul dbe voting for one of them already

[geraintm]

claim then
Jack of All Trades, i can't focus on anything, i like to imagine myself as randy from my name is earl.
one shot tracker
one shot vig

as i said, i had flavour in my role message, hence my liking that post which was askign for flavour from penguin.

glad that got sorted out quick, you can all either decide to lynch me or go looking for someone else to go lynch.

[geraintm]

penguin -if scum, then picked a good role to claim.

This comment just feels odd...

why, tracker is such a weird role, easy to fake with "he didn't do anything, not my fault i picked vanilla townie"

juls - seems ok, done decent posting, gotten really sidetracked with the tracker thing.

Do you think discussing what we should do with our tracker is beneficial?

yep, planning how to deal with a tracker on day one when you are going to get results from otehr players seemed odd. i knew that i was going to be able to throw in a tracker result too for example, and i strongly suspect there will be mor epro-town info to come after night 1. i considered it a waste of time.

[geraintm]

yes, those are my two abilities. i can use one a night, but not both in the same night.

IP: any flavor on tracker?

I am not fully understanding, sorry. Do you mean was there any additional info given to me in regarding my role in my message from Mod? I don't want to state any of that in case it is OK.

Mod: Can I state if there was any storyline info in my role message?

In case it isn't clear from rule #10:

You may NOT quote anything I say to you. You may paraphrase (although be careful) or lie or say nothing.

Just do NOT quote.

penguin wanted to, but wasn't allowed to.

yes, vig could be a good cover for a SK or scum, but i wasn't going to claim and not include it.

[geraintm]

just finished reread. all of geraintm's contributions have come at L-2.

really, juls said i was at l-1?

yep, planning how to deal with a tracker on day one when you are going to get results from otehr players seemed odd. i knew that i was going to be able to throw in a tracker result too for example, and i strongly suspect there will be mor epro-town info to come after night 1. i considered it a waste of time.

why did you not speak up previously? the discussion of what to do about ip carried on for several pages. why only mention this now?

quote="geraintm"]

RE: people planning penguin's future. not worth it, game will get twisted so much so fast, can't just plan now to ride one player like that.
[/quote]

i did. but there can be a lot of discussion overnight/over weekend when i am not around, and i doubt my posting on the topic would have changed things much anyway.

nice way to squeeze me in knowing full well my lynch is a consideration. way to cover your ass when i flip town.

it followed on quiet obviously from my previous post you would be in a short list? why you so surprised?
and it wasn't a scum list, just the people i found most odd. i explicitly said not a lynch list, way too long for that.

penguin was allowed to paraphrase. so are you. i suggest you both pm the mod. paraphrase your role pm's and send them to spyrex and let him decide if you are allowed to post. BOTH OF YOU SHOULD DO THIS. why would we have a "tracker"

and

a "jack of all trades"? reasonable, yes, but until i see some flavour i don't know who i can believe. why do you believe ip?

i did paraphrase, the mention of the shiny things bit. i could write out the entire email in slightly different words, but that would allow scum a much easier chance of faking their own claims later...or didn't that occur to you???

why no atronach. as i said, i am confused by him. does he really believe his attack on me? should probably have included him in the list.

Why would we have two trackers?

couple of reasons there could be.

You responded with this when asked to name your top suspects. You're not voting anyone. Can you explain this here?

why not voting, as i have said, i am generally slow with placing votes. haven't been sure enough to place one yet after penguin

Shot and Beheaded look like our two kill flavors. Ger, without quoting, can you share any clues you might have as to your kill flavor?

what purpose does this achieve? i haven't killed anyone yet.

ebwop: found this on wiki.

The Jack-of-all-trades is a role with

several night abilities

, such as investigating, protecting, etc. Once he has used a type of ability, he won't be able to use it again.

several implies more than two.

seriously, you are using that against me?

I think one of them is probably lying. I'm leaning toward this "double-tracker" joat role being the lie for the time being.

why do you think i am lying? has there been anything about my claim that strikes you as feeling untrue? have i not been forthcoming and given as much info as possible? what could i have done with my role to make you believe me more???

Re:post 255 - i am a terrible scum hunter, seriously bad at it. one reason i am so slow placing votes is i am usually wrong. it isn't so much bad play, rather i know my limitations.

meta answer: I'm pretty sure the JOAT role can have whichever powers the mod chooses..

side note: If IP and Ger are both telling the truth, and there are in fact two trackers...is it possible there could be 2 vigs?

Outing power roles a bit much?

I don't believe Gera. Partially because of the redundancy and partially because 1 tracker result is easy enough to fake and a SK or mafia could easily sacrifice 1 nk. I also don't trust Gera to follow the tracker discussion that he decided was worthless to realize that IP is under serious consideration for lynch even if he just hits one tracker result wrong, and IP isn't a 1-shot tracker.

why don't you believe me?
if i had made my claim first, without penguin's claim of tracker, would it have been more believable?
what would you do if i come up dead with the exact role i have described?

FAST FACTS
. He also an epic level hypocrit by calling someone lazy after posting so little of ANYTHING before now and being unable to use capital letters.

sorry, this amused me greatly, being called lazy for failure to press the shift key

Re: nameless' plan to direct my actions.
i am not going for this. not even going to say which role i am using tonight. want scum to not know if i am going to try and shoot one of them and likely fail, or try for a tracker. want to see if they are at all scared of my action and let them try and guess what i am going to do.

so MT doesn't mind lynching nameless, don, or ger? I'm not reading who CB or porkens (still) would like to lynch.

pay attention much? Mt specifically stated he believes geraintm and offered a viable solution for ger to confirm himself later in the game(self vig). come on man, we're close to deadline, the least you can do is RTFT.

sorry, the self vig thing was serious?? i assumed it was a joke?
people really expect me to kill myself??

i am simply trying to help town and avoid a no lynch. i have been accused of spending too much time focusing in one area, now that i offer to focus elsewhere, nameless gets back to his old tricks. for the record: i reread Atronach's posts in isolation and found no reason to vote them. geraintm is not the best at explaining himself, and atronach's interpretations, though flawed, are not scummy.

i find it hard to explain atronach's questions because i didn't see them as scummy, i had to sit there and go, "but but but...i wasn't doing anything" in response.

Yeah, see, you could say that about anything. Plenty of Gera's actions obviously benefit the scum (leaving a player at L-1, not contributing to discussion for quite a while, agreeing with Porkens' random lynch comment etc.), so why assume they come from a townie playing badly?

i never, ever left penguin at L-1. penguin fully claimed in post 162
don unvoted in post 163
i did not leave him at L-1, i left my vote on him. plum unvoted in 165, porkens in 186.
the agreeing with porkens i have said i considered totally out of this game and really a meta thing, no one at the time considered it fishy. sorry i didn't contribute enough earlier in the game, but if that is the case why aren't more people wanting to lynch chaos???

[geraintm]

post 3 - nothing of substance here
post 4 - nothing of substance
post 5 - nothing of substance
post 6 - nothing of substance here
post 7 - a vote here, but i kinda feel it was a stretch, early in game so stretching allowed though
post 8, you don't really contribute much here, you ask a question to another player to get them to respond
post 9 - here you mention the mega-don pairing, and i have looked before this and couldn't work out where. also, more questions to other players.
post 10, you are waiting for someone else to answer a question and thus vote for them.
post 11 - nothing here
post 12 - nothing of game substance here
post 13 - again, you don't really add much yourself, you just comment on someone else's post
post 14, asking a Q to penguin, but some analysis of penguin too
post 15 - nothing
post 16 - nothing, just applying pressure to penguin
posy 17, pressure applied and worked, you back off but leave yourself free to come back to penguin when you feel like it
post 18, again, you don't contribute anything, you instead ask penguin to post more
same with porkens
post 19, partly a good post to canadian, partly a nothing to do with the game post
post 20 -
post 21- still making out unsure of penguin
post 22 - you ask a question to Canadian
post 23 - nothing
post 24 - asking for more contribution from nameless, some analysis of nameless and then wasting time with guessing what to do with penguin as tracker.
post 25 - decent post against nameless
post 26 - asking me to explain myself
post 27 - asking me to explain myself
post 28 - hung up on this 3 person scum team topic.
post 29 - gone back to penguin, still suspicious of him
post 30 - wants juls thoughts and wasting time on directing doc
post 31 - pushing nameless bandwagon, asks juls another question
post 32 - asks porkens to elaborate
post 33 -
post 34 - wants more analysis from porkens
post 35 - wants more from porkens, and some general twilight observations
post 36 - wants penguin to explain himself more
post 37 - "i don't agree" feels like one of the few times he read someone's post and actually responded to it instead of just asking for more explanation.
also asks nameless a weird question about lynching lurkers
says his votes are well explained. i disagree here, i think there are two votes so far, one on mega i thought was a stretch, one on penguin that was better, well explained is going a bit far.
bring sup SK again, still pushing nameless
post 38 - wasting time on doctor again
post 39 - lots of talk about something, and finishes with "what do you feel nameless"
post 40 - wasting time trying to work out day 2 plans
post 41- still on about doctor
post 42 - some good analysis on candian, still on about SK and doctor, lots more with nameless and wants nameless to explain strawman
post 43 - decent post, if still filled with doctor ramblings
post 44 - still doc ramblings/SK musings
admits has tunnel vision
post 45 - hey, lists top 3!
post 46 - decent post
post 47 - no idea except i get that you like girls
post 48 - not sure what this post is about
post 49 - decent post
post 50 - you point out you use wifom to dismiss people's responses, but when you ask so many people so many times their opinions, you can't dismiss them all all the time.
agrees with plum talking setup is not helpful, but all game he has been talking about a SK because you've been in other games with them despite there being no evidence of a SK in this one...?
post 51 - more SK talk
post 52- dismisses my claim and goes into setup guessing, despite saying with plum in post 50 that guessing the setup is bad
post 53 - decent post, asking me lots of questions you want me to respond to
post 54 - more setup/role guessing and asking me to respond to your post
post 55 - more set up guessing
post 56 - more set up guessing and using it to assume one of me or penguin is lying
post 57 - utterly bizarre post, seriously one of the biggest reaches i have seen in any game of mafia to attach suspicion to someone.
post 58 - brings up a self vig post, is this for real? i always assumed the self vig thing was a joke
post 59 - votes nameless and is sticking with it
buddys to mega
post 60 -more set up/role guessing
post 61 - asking plum questions

[geraintm]

sorry, not clear, the above refers to don's posts during this game

[geraintm]

juls, don asked me to go through his posts cause he wanted evidence when i accused him of beiing wishy-washy, so i did.
i think the only reason people are giving me such a hard time is i claimed an odd role, one half of which follows on from the previous claim.
i will vote for someone before the day ends. jut frustrating the day has such a fixed deadline, i would be voting choas on principle otherwise. he hasnt posted in over a week anywhere on this site.

mod can you prod/replace chaos please

[geraintm]

what purpose does this achieve? i haven't killed anyone yet.

Should I read this as an answer of "No"? I think it's important...

i have no idea about any flavour of my kill, i am just distracted by shiny things is about as much as i have

My first instinct tells me that there aren't two trackers in the game, and your JOAT with only two abilities also doesn't make sense. You're defense in this long post gives me a bad feeling in my tummy.

there are only 12 players, i reckon this game will last about 4 days. giving me any more than 2 abilities means i have an ability every night and my choices are then just in which order i use them. giving me two means i might run out, meaning i might not want to use them straight off giving me a more interesting game choices.

There's one more thing, you said this:

plum, i brought up the night zero kills because there had been discussion of possible sk because of the two kills, i wanted to kill that discussion till there is some evidence. i didn't mean to sidetrack talk today now with that, i was trying to kill talk on a pointless topic of the existence of a SK.

You're pretty vehement about not talking about and SK, while to me the night 0 looks awfully like a big "HAY GUYS" from our mod.

My vote stays on the SK.

i feel day onesuch things as discussing SK (generated pretty much by one player), directing the doc (same player), trying to plan out 3 or 4 days of what penguin should do and so on are pretty much a waste of time. not just SK i have said i thought was a waste. night zero, all i got from that night was mod making sure there were no cops in the game and we knew that, not that there was a SK in our midst

your last line, you have me pegged as SK then?

[geraintm]

Can I just remind you guys we have got to L-1 twice and had two claims. I would rather votes come sooner rather than later because if some other curve ball comes we need time to adjust. I don't mind a hammer coming on the last day (tomorrow) but I would like to see us have a direction today.

the players who might feel the need to claim should already know who they are, and nameless has claimed non-powerful role already

[geraintm]

Don,
i wrote this about you

don - Mon Jan 12, 2009 2:01 am his post here where he brings up the "more than one player has speculated at the megatheory/don_johnson scum pairing"
i never saw this.
up to this point, i found his posts to be pretty wishy washy, full of quantity but very little quality. i don't find his posts helpful in trying to find scum at all. too often responding to others comments, pressuring them to talk more or him directly asking questions, the whole doc thing, just a waste of time...same with any mention of SK

you objected to this, you asked for evidence of why i thought this about you and why i thought you were a bad scum hunter.
i then went through all your posts and gave brief summaries of them (the 61 incomplete sentences, which they were, but it was easier writing "nothing of substance" rather then "Whilst rereading this old post of Don's, i did not find much of it of importance." you said i made no regard for the actual substance of your posts, what did you want me to do, quote every single one of your posts and then write under it, i didn't find anything interesting here, nothing that significantly advanced the towns cause? i read them all, i read the substance of all your posts).
i wasn't going to do detailed, too much there, too little time.
this long list was not scum hunting, it was my attempt to show why i thought your posts were often wishy-washy and that you wasted too much time talking about topics i felt were not really relevant.

but, i stand by what i wrote about your posts. i feel that many of them were not helpful in finding scum, many of them are you asking other players to respond to your points and i don't find that style of play a good one. i feel that style of play allows a player to appear in the game but actually is forcing other players to talk a lot and give others more words to twist if needed. seriously, there is no apology coming from me for my post, i feel it was what was asked for when you asked for evidence of your posts being wishy-washy and focussed on poor topics. i am sorry you are so offended by my post, but i have no regret at all with what i wrote.
But, i seriously hope your reaction to my post does not derail the game.

so MT doesn't mind lynching nameless, don, or ger? I'm not reading who CB or porkens (still) would like to lynch.

pay attention much? Mt specifically stated he believes geraintm and offered a viable solution for ger to confirm himself later in the game(self vig). come on man, we're close to deadline, the least you can do is RTFT.

as to self viging: noone is saying that it is what should be done. but it is a viable pro town option. how it works with a "one shot" vig could be difficult, but typically if a vig's alignment is in question and the situation arises where a mislynch can cost town the game, it is a good strategy for a player to self vig, thereby confirming their alignment to town and not causing a mislynch. players are only confirmed by their deaths. for us to confirm ip to be town we will either have to mislynch or count on mafia killing him. you have the option of suicide. that is all.

sorry. one person was saying that is what should be done. it was you, and you follow up when you said no one said that should be done by then saying you think it is a good idea.
with 12 players, i cannot see it being good thinking at all to kill myself when the info which it would confirm - one track - isn't worth the loss to the town of a townie.

[geraintm]

that it then, twilight now? really thought nameless would have given me a chance to place my vote to avoid the need for him to self vote.
anyways, dunno what to say now? can't imagine it looks good for me, having avoided placing a vote, though i did say i was going to place one today, i wasn't going to let night come without voting.

knowing don I suspect I'll come in for some analysis early tomorrow. Perhaps though they'll be better targets.
everyone has to kick chaos, I can't believe a lurker like that got away with doing nothing, just not helpful to town at all

glad though in a weird way I didn't have to vote, I fear that I would have ended up voting for don. unfortunately, I think my judgement about him has become slightly clouded the last few days. I'd have ended up voting for him over nameless I think because I was so obviously looking at the posts he was making about me I was fully looking at nameless.

not much else to say about today.
don, I really think you have to look at your posts and see how they come across to the rest of us. your defence seems like "I was saying Not! Wayne's world style, so I wasn't advocating it". and I don't buy that at all, to me it doesn't stand up.

the bit where you brought up the wiki post on jack of all trades, there is no reason to bring that up unless you are using it to point out I only have 2 roles and do not match up with a jack of all trades. yeah, you didn't say I was lying, but you bring up some text which disagrees with what I was saying and thus cast doubt on the truthfulness of my claim.

mega, I am not going to self-vig
I understand that in some circumstances it makes sense, but in a game of only 12 people, losing one town to gain the confirmation I am town isn't worth it at all. It makes it one person closer to winning for the scum. Everyone should not mention it again, it aint going to happen

plum, I can understand why someone might think I am a SK< I have claimed a one shot vig, but I can't remember if he was accusing me of being a SK before or after I claimed vig. I think it was before.

[geraintm]

that it then, twilight now? really thought nameless would have given me a chance to place my vote to avoid the need for him to self vote.

Even with your vote, one player currently voting me would have needed to vote Don instead, and especially after Juls swapped her vote TO me, I doubt that would have happened. (Although I wouldn't be surprised if somebody

now

claims they would have in an attempt to score townie points.)

Chaos will be modkilled at the end of D2. Unless he rejoins you, forget him.

i might have voted you, and that would have given the town mor einfo than you voting yourself

[geraintm]

ok, i am so sorry.
i suspect thins is going to have screwed the game up totally.

basically, i got my claim wrong
i am not a one shot tracker, one shot vig
i am a one shot watcher and one shot vig.

i sent in my action to watch penguin
i put it in my last post

t

hat it then, twilight now?

r

eally thought nameless would have given me a chance to place my vote to avoid the need for him to self vote.

s

nyways, dunno what to say now?

c

an't imagine it looks good for me, having avoided placing a vote, though i did say i was going to place one today, i wasn't going to let night come without voting.

k

nowing don I suspect I'll come in for some analysis early tomorrow.

p

erhaps though they'll be better targets.

e

veryone has to kick chaos, I can't believe a lurker like that got away with doing nothing, just not helpful to town at all

g

lad though in a weird way I didn't have to vote, I fear that I would have ended up voting for don.

u

nfortunately, I think my judgement about him has become slightly clouded the last few days.

i

'd have ended up voting for him over nameless I think because I was so obviously looking at the posts he was making about me I was fully looking at nameless.

n

ot much else to say about today.

so was kinda weirded out and realised the blunder when i got told by mod i was a watcher and not tracker. my plan was, thinking i was a tracker, track penguin, see where he went and that would confirm him one way or the other.
all i got was that penguin's house was empty.

so, the shouting at me can begin...

[geraintm]

opps, did the editing on my quote wrong then as i was bolding, but you get teh idea

[geraintm]

That's a

horrible

breadcrumb, bro :p

But, even though, maybe even

because

, you flubbed your role, your claim makes 1000X more sense now, so I believe ya.

yeah, i've not really ever tried to do that sort of thing before, but i thought with me being a tracker it was such an obvious thing to do during the night might as well point to it.

that said, do we want a claim from megatheory, or is that premature?

sorry, why you pushing mega to claim???

and why on earth are you fosing me because of what atronach said? i know you have had it in for me for ages, but that is pushing it, surely?

ger's claim itself, his reaction to my ebwop where i posted info from the wikiguide regarding the role he claimed, and his lack of contribution and questionable "watcher" results all raise my suspicion of him. his results conveniently leave IP and himself clear. it would have been more believable for our "vig" to claim roleblocked. point is: he should have vig'd me. he should have vig'd someone, or mafia should have targeted him somehow.

unsure how your suspicion of me could get any higher really?
the bit you posted from the wiki, i wasn't the only person who called you on that, don't just pick me up on that.
my claim i f'ked up, but that wasn't deliberate.
my result doesn't leave anyone clear, i never said it did. but i have tried to be as truthful with my play as i can be.

why would i have vigged you?
i wasn't sure who was scum day one, and the odds of shooting scum get better once night one is out of the way after mafia kill some townies. my odds now are 1/x-2, not 1/x
i would also have a better idea of guessing who i think the bad guys are too leaving it an extra day.

also, i know he says he wanted to be honest, but why admit to being a "one shot vig" in the first place? it sets up the scenario for the explanation of a nk later in the game. this is a huge liability for town.

honestly, i don't believe him at all.

why mention the vig role, well i have always been taught to be truthful as town, don't lie. if i hadn't mentioned the vig and then later killed someone, how would i have explained that?

your post 476 - seriously, quoting dictionary/com at us to back up your position?
why do you want me dead so much. are you thinking i have a vig for tonight and you really, really don't want me to shoot you?

he has already discounted the self-vig. which, by the way, is somewhat anti-town. sorry, but i don't trust night killers, especially one playing as bad as this.

don, what happens if i self vig?
9 players now
we assume 2 scum one SK (is that a safe assumption to make, anything else seems unbalanced)
so 6 townies left
we lynch someone tonight, taking us to 8
i kill myself, taking us to 7
SK and mafia kill one each
taking us to 5
so left with 2 town, 2 scum, one SK
that is what you are advocating to happen?
you want me to kill myself to confirm i am town, rather than have SK/scum kill me due to being scared to me catching them?

look, i realise my wrong claim has screwed things up, and if that costs town any chance of winning then i am really sorry for effectively wasting everyone's time, please don't let it happen

I see only two possibilities regarding geraintm at this point. One is that he's lying about his role and everything else- in which case we should lynch him, as there is no pro town reason for him to be doing so. The other is that he's telling the truth about his role and the mistakes he made- in which case we should make the best of a bad situation and decide, as a town, who he should vig.

agree, everyone has to agree on me very quickly, if this goes on longer than a day or two discussing me, then wastes time for later more important discussions.

come one, now. people railed against me all day for trying to "direct" the doc. ger was one of those who didn't approve. i posted full well knowing noone would be listening. i actually thought my post might antagonize someone. my honest hope was that i would be vig'd.

no one ever posts something if they think they are going to be ignored.

post 489, you have me quoting yourself and adding some text, but that was not me who posted that, you quoted incorrectly

ger conveniently clears himself and the other tracker. however, later in the game he could easily make the case that he only knew IP was out. this still leaves IP in the hotseat for a mislynch. yeah, i'm reaching a bit, but its plausible. making others look town can easily help any one of us look more town. like i said, i'd like others input. noone seems to be sure of anything. i guess i am just believing IP's "dumb" act more than ger's, and due to the fact that neither one of them was targeted in any way makes me think at least one is lying.

i have not cleared penguin at all. all my result shows is that no one came to penguins house, penguin can still be doc, SK or mafia. if you are thinking me an penguin are paired because i have cleared him, then you are making assumptions based on very foolish thinking.
i hope you go back now and rexamin your thinking knowing that i have not cleared penguin at all

at the moment, i am leaning very strongly towards don being suspicious. i can't work out why he is pushing me so hard, making assumptions which aren't true, linking me in scummy pairings, mixed up logic on what people should be doing etc unless
a) he is a bad guy and scared of my one shot
b) got sidetracked by my abusing him in my posts and he can't see past that
Discuss:

[geraintm]

that said, do we want a claim from megatheory, or is that premature?

sorry, why you pushing mega to claim???

and why on earth are you fosing me because of what atronach said? i know you have had it in for me for ages, but that is pushing it, surely?

how is asking players what they think "pushing"? you seem to enjoy spinning what i say to seem scummy. i am asking a question.

so you are saying you were merely asking the question, your answer to that question would be no, you didn't want mega to claim but you thought it best to bring up something you didn't want to happen because getting everyone else to waste their time answering yes or no to a question you think is no? is that right? is that what you are saying?

the bit you posted from the wiki, i wasn't the only person who called you on that, don't just pick me up on that.

you were. mega pointed out that several could mean just "more than one." my dictionary entry shows that not to likely be the case, but whatever. it only the dictionary.

ebwop: found this on wiki.

The Jack-of-all-trades is a role with

several night abilities

, such as investigating, protecting, etc. Once he has used a type of ability, he won't be able to use it again.

several implies more than two.

i will stop posting for a while. if i am going to be bandwagoned i would like my questions answered and my suggestions considered.

Please don't split hairs. Several can mean any number.

really? you say saying mega was saying you were splitting hairs wasn't someone else besides me who called you on that? you are either the most finickity player i have ever seen, or you are really really trying to make me look bad

my claim i f'ked up, but that wasn't deliberate.
my result doesn't leave anyone clear, i never said it did. but i have tried to be as truthful with my play as i can be.

noone is saying you said it "cleared" anyone. i am glad you are trying to be truthful.

seriously? i actually quote the line of text where

you

said i cleared myself and penguin and you then now say no one said it cleared anyone?

vote don_johnson

sorry the rest of you, i can't work out what else to do with him

[geraintm]

don, i don't want mega to claim, scum alredy know too much about who isn't the doc to improve their chances of getting him/her.

i take back the bit about the me saying cleared myself, i misremebred, sorry.

and mega's post on the several, lets just say then we really, really disagree on the intpretation of what you said

also, WHY DON"T YOU VIG ME? IT WOULD AT LEAST AVOID A MISLYNCH AND REMOVE ME FROM THE ACTUAL LYLO SCENARIO? maybe its because you can't...

also, WHY DON"T YOU VIG ME? IT WOULD AT LEAST AVOID A MISLYNCH AND REMOVE ME FROM THE ACTUAL LYLO SCENARIO? maybe its because you can't...

Having him choose his own target completely defeats the purpose of having town direct the kill.

What I'd like from you, Don, at this point is clarification. Is gera still your vote for the day or do you want him to use his power? And if so, what target are you nominating?

unfortunately, i don't think choosing his target is a good idea yet.

just pointing out those two lines

i would like people to discuss the pros and cons of a mass claim.

stop doing this. cause later on you are going to say something like you never wanted peopel to mass claim.
no wait, in 503 you actually come out with it being a good idea...
i'll go on record, mass claiming has to be bad, pushing it don makes you look more and more untown

That's a

horrible

breadcrumb, bro :p

But, even though, maybe even

because

, you flubbed your role, your claim makes 1000X more sense now, so I believe ya.

That post wasn't really a breadcrumb at all because it came after ger claimed and

in twilight

. It makes perfect sense for scum to have a plan of action by the time the day is over. His "breadcrumb" proves absolutely nothing. Why does his mistake make his claim more believable anyway?

sorry, it was the first time i've really tried doing something like that, sorry if i did it poorly

Can you describe what your watcher power is supposed to do?

i was told by mod that for one night of the game, i can choose to go visit someone's house and i see everyone who visits it. i got this confused with tracker, where i would have gone to penguin's house and seen where he had gone.

post 508, basically agree with all of this.

[geraintm]

Forgot, the sums to do with how quickly we are going to get to lynch or lose are speeded up because we are going to get someone mod killed tonight because chaos hasn't posted all day.

and i can't see anything beond don to lynch at the moment. if anyone wants to push someone else as a good target, they better do it soon so we can discuss it

[geraintm]

how is "requesting a mass claim" scummy? can i force you to do it? it seems as though there is quite a bit of flavor in this game, even though it is a mini-normal, and i honestly think by forcing scum to lie we may be able to catch one. how is that scummy? it is an opinion and it makes sense. do you agree? no. do you have to agree? no. do you have to do what i say? no.

i've time for about 30 seconds to write, had to pick this.
scum just go "i'm vanilla" they don't need to lie, we won't catch any of them out.

[geraintm]

ok, just checking in, i shot porkens last night to clear that up. i'll look over the thread and make sense of it soon, ok

[geraintm]

ok, so let me follow this
there is me, townie
there is a SK
there is at least one scum, possibly 2

Question, if there is SK and scum left, who wins?

[geraintm]

atronarch, you see any reason why i shouldnt as town vote for nu lynch?

[geraintm]

post 547, i just wanted him to have chance to add to that

[geraintm]

vote no lynch

lets see where we end up then

[geraintm]

vote Danchaofan

yeah, i think you can claim a moral victory dan...

[geraintm]

Well, alls well that ends well.
Firstly, Don, sorry if i upset you at one point in the game, i really didn't mean to and i hope no hard feelings.
sorry everyone for getting my role wrong, i really did blunder. i had it all worked out, track the tracker and get him confirmed, didn't quiet work out

Why did i vig porkens night 2, well i knew i had to shoot someone and i thought he was too good a player to be so low key throughout the game, he kinda brought it on himself

read the mafia's thread,

"I feel kinda dirty that CO was the doc"
that made me giggle

am really sorry if everyone thought i was terrible, i don't mean to be bad.

think the game might have gone differently if the lenght of days/replacements had been different. a quick cut off i think hindered the town, and not being able to replace in the doc too.

[geraintm]

no hard feelings ger. like i said, i am an aggressive player and i know i get under peoples skin sometimes. i was really surprised the scum didn't nk you after claiming vig. after nameless' lynch i felt terrible and was just hoping you'd kill me, lol..

you didn't, you took exception to one of my posts, i was neer upset with you

but agree, was surprised they didnt kill me night 2.