Open 100 - F + E x 2 + TOG OVER! before 712

[StrangerCoug]

I know. Wall-E is still scum.

vote count

wall-e (2): strangercoug, seraphim
tenchi (1): wall-e
peter? (1): tenchi

not voting: everyone else

with 9 alive it is 5 to lynch

[Wall-E]

I know. Wall-E is still scum.

Why? Aside from you not liking my case on Tenchi?

[Wall-E]

Well, see, Tenchi is the mafia. I hope that helps.

It doesn't. Not only is it vague, but since this is a multiball and I am unaware of the existence of any evidence that Tenchi killed hp [leaves] over Doc, you're giving me a slight werewolf vibe with this statement.

A) I said, "Here is the case on Tenchi." Then I posted a huge case against Tenchi.

B) You said, "I don't see the case on Tenchi."

C) I said, "See, Tenchi is scum."

Dismissing my entire case (A) with a one-liner (B) gave me the inclination to be equally lazy (C). If you want me to explain why Tenchi is scum, in my opinion, read my case against him. If you want to be pithy, leave it as you did.

/confirm

Are we told the way of killing or we just find/not find dead bodies?

This makes me think you have a killing role.

Vote: hp [leaves]

I would argue that it's not a scummy question. Not important to ask, but not scummy to ask either.

You're wrong about it not being important AND about it not being a scummy question. It's very important, but the answer is obvious (see: werewolf role, as someone pointed out), which is why HP's concern rubbed me wrong. As I said before, the werewolf (on mafiascum, anyway) has no other purpose than kill flavor distinction, which we need to help us find the scum. QED the answer WAS important and it was ALSO scummy to ask about, in my opinion, due to the fact that

most town would probably jump to the same conclusion I did rather than needing 100% mod validation.

Regardless, I'm now thinking HP was just not giving the thread much thought rather than scum wondering aloud about his own role.

First off, don't strawman me.

I specifically denied that the question was important

TO ASK

. I did not deny that the question itself was important.

The fact that the answer is obvious makes asking it unimportant.

I believe that asking about kill flavor and especially whether or not there were any deaths is a newb tell given when it was asked. I do not see it as a reliable scum tell in this case. In fact, your stance is now identical to mine—hp [leaves] simply wasn't paying attention to the thread. I'd bring up a post I've seen elsewhere about night kills that is an accurate reflection of my beliefs, but it's unfortunately in an ongoing.

In the underlined part you make a distinction which, I believe, is silly.

As subtle as the distinction may be, ignoring it is twisting my words and therefore misrepresenting me.

I didn't ignore anything. You're reaching.

Then you qualify it with a point that I already made, but you use it in a manner which is untruthful: The obviousness of the answer doesn't make asking it unimportant, it makes it a scumtell, as I've already said in the blue words above.

This makes absolutely no sense to me. If the answer is obvious, then why is it important to ask the question in the first place? And under what circumstances is it important for somebody to ask a scummy question?

I thought pops was a bad lynch because I thought he'd soft-claimed mason.

Why didn't you say so earlier, damn it? ><

IT WAS VERBOTEN TO DISCUSS MASONRY AT THE TIME!!!! I GOT SHOUTED DOWN WHEN I TRIED!!!!! how many times am i going to be asked this? he wasn't a mason, so what's with this question?

When you're asked a question about a specific event, future unknowns do not apply. You thought at the time that he was a mason. You learned after the time I'm talking about that he wasn't, so you cannot use your knowledge otherwise to question my question.

Let's say you hate school so much that you want the principal dead. You kill someone you think is her, but instead turns out to be your best friend's mother. When the police come to question you, you cannot use "I didn't know she wasn't my principal" as an acceptable excuse. Similar to what you're trying to do here.

I don't think you're reading me carefully. What is the purpose behind the question in red in the first place? That's the question I was asking (and validating).

You did little to stall popsofctown's lynch. The second to last post of yours before you voice your disapproval, you say that you would prefer lynching Budja over Tenchi but would be fine going after the latter. I buy your answer that you didn't say why you disapproved of a popsofctown lynch because nobody let you talk about the masons, but your best weapon therefore was to persuade the town that Budja and Tenchi, in your opinion, were better lynch options than popsofctown. Push Budja and Tenchi as much as necessary to achieve the desired effect.

I'm sorry if you don't think I tried to dissuade pop's lynch. I disagree.

I agree with everything else you said, but it has no bearing on the conversation, like a man who states a fact about weather during a discussion about sports.

It takes one to know one.

are you reading just my posts by isolation or ---?

I've read the whole game before my replacement was even announced, then I went back and checked who was pinging my scumdar because I had forgotten overnight. It turned out to be you, so I looked at you in isolation.

That's reassuring to hear, but I have evidence that you did not, in fact, read the thread, or only skimmed it. In either case, you did not comprehend the thread, which is the true goal of "reading" the thread.

Present it.

I already have. You brought up an issue which I had already addressed, namely my statement about the scummyness of hp's question about kill flavor. I answered your concerns, but it made me sure you'd skimmed the thread rather than reading the posts. See below.

For the record, I admitted that it was a weak scumtell at best, but it was an early game scumtell, which are usually weak. I still stand by my opinion on the post in question of HP's.

The track you are on with my early game comment on HP Leaves has been done already. The only reason I'm engaging you right now is that it seems to be a recurring problem people are having with me, and I want to make sure I am clearly understood.

Then why am I the only person you're attacking for misunderstanding you?

I haven't attacked you. Until now, I didn't think you were necessarily scum. The post of yours that I have just quoted is making me wonder.

[Wall-E]

SC: Your assertion that I have attacked you is bothering me. Can you cite or quote me doing that? It sounds like paranoia to me.

[StrangerCoug]

I know. Wall-E is still scum.

Why? Aside from you not liking my case on Tenchi?

I haven't forgotten about you strawmanning me to make it look like I said something other than what I said, nor have I forgotten about your craplogic. See below.

C) I said, "See, Tenchi is scum."

No, you said something more specific than that:

Well, see, Tenchi is the mafia.

Nice job backtracking your statement when werewolves also exist.

Confirm vote: Wall-E.

/confirm

Are we told the way of killing or we just find/not find dead bodies?

This makes me think you have a killing role.

Vote: hp [leaves]

I would argue that it's not a scummy question. Not important to ask, but not scummy to ask either.

You're wrong about it not being important AND about it not being a scummy question. It's very important, but the answer is obvious (see: werewolf role, as someone pointed out), which is why HP's concern rubbed me wrong. As I said before, the werewolf (on mafiascum, anyway) has no other purpose than kill flavor distinction, which we need to help us find the scum. QED the answer WAS important and it was ALSO scummy to ask about, in my opinion, due to the fact that

most town would probably jump to the same conclusion I did rather than needing 100% mod validation.

Regardless, I'm now thinking HP was just not giving the thread much thought rather than scum wondering aloud about his own role.

First off, don't strawman me.

I specifically denied that the question was important

TO ASK

. I did not deny that the question itself was important.

The fact that the answer is obvious makes asking it unimportant.

I believe that asking about kill flavor and especially whether or not there were any deaths is a newb tell given when it was asked. I do not see it as a reliable scum tell in this case. In fact, your stance is now identical to mine—hp [leaves] simply wasn't paying attention to the thread. I'd bring up a post I've seen elsewhere about night kills that is an accurate reflection of my beliefs, but it's unfortunately in an ongoing.

In the underlined part you make a distinction which, I believe, is silly.

As subtle as the distinction may be, ignoring it is twisting my words and therefore misrepresenting me.

I didn't ignore anything. You're reaching.

Then do these for me:

• Prove that there is absolutely no difference between "it is unimportant to ask the question" and "the question itself is unimportant". Not that there is such an insignificant difference that they can for most purposes be treated the same in practice; that there is
  ABSOLUTELY NO
  difference.
  
• Answer these, which you've so gladly skipped over in your response:

  If the answer is obvious, then why is it important to ask the question in the first place? And under what circumstances is it important for somebody to ask a scummy question?

I thought pops was a bad lynch because I thought he'd soft-claimed mason.

Why didn't you say so earlier, damn it? ><

IT WAS VERBOTEN TO DISCUSS MASONRY AT THE TIME!!!! I GOT SHOUTED DOWN WHEN I TRIED!!!!! how many times am i going to be asked this? he wasn't a mason, so what's with this question?

When you're asked a question about a specific event, future unknowns do not apply. You thought at the time that he was a mason. You learned after the time I'm talking about that he wasn't, so you cannot use your knowledge otherwise to question my question.

Let's say you hate school so much that you want the principal dead. You kill someone you think is her, but instead turns out to be your best friend's mother. When the police come to question you, you cannot use "I didn't know she wasn't my principal" as an acceptable excuse. Similar to what you're trying to do here.

I don't think you're reading me carefully. What is the purpose behind the question in red in the first place? That's the question I was asking (and validating).

You did little to stall popsofctown's lynch. The second to last post of yours before you voice your disapproval, you say that you would prefer lynching Budja over Tenchi but would be fine going after the latter. I buy your answer that you didn't say why you disapproved of a popsofctown lynch because nobody let you talk about the masons, but your best weapon therefore was to persuade the town that Budja and Tenchi, in your opinion, were better lynch options than popsofctown. Push Budja and Tenchi as much as necessary to achieve the desired effect.[/quote]

I'm sorry if you don't think I tried to dissuade pop's lynch. I disagree.[/quote]
Well, if you were unsuccessful, that's really as far as I can go here.

I agree with everything else you said, but it has no bearing on the conversation, like a man who states a fact about weather during a discussion about sports.

It takes one to know one.

are you reading just my posts by isolation or ---?

I've read the whole game before my replacement was even announced, then I went back and checked who was pinging my scumdar because I had forgotten overnight. It turned out to be you, so I looked at you in isolation.

That's reassuring to hear, but I have evidence that you did not, in fact, read the thread, or only skimmed it. In either case, you did not comprehend the thread, which is the true goal of "reading" the thread.

Present it.

I already have. You brought up an issue which I had already addressed, namely my statement about the scummyness of hp's question about kill flavor. I answered your concerns, but it made me sure you'd skimmed the thread rather than reading the posts. See below.

For the record, I admitted that it was a weak scumtell at best, but it was an early game scumtell, which are usually weak. I still stand by my opinion on the post in question of HP's.

I don't even think the scumtell is valid, but as long as we're on the same page...

[Wall-E]

I know. Wall-E is still scum.

Why? Aside from you not liking my case on Tenchi?

I haven't forgotten about you strawmanning me to make it look like I said something other than what I said, nor have I forgotten about your craplogic. See below.

What crap logic? The strawman issue I will address later in this post.

C) I said, "See, Tenchi is scum."

No, you said something more specific than that:

Well, see, Tenchi is the mafia.

Nice job backtracking your statement when werewolves also exist.

Confirm vote: Wall-E.

Sit down on Uncle Wall-E's old lap, sonny, let me tell you a tale.

When I was a young man, some friends and I would play a party game. We called it Assassin. In those days we'd say things like, "StrangerCoug is a killer!" And there was the occasional fistfight or storming-off by various folk, myself excluded.

Now, one day, while parusing the internets, I happened upon a messageboard. On the messageboard, lo and behold, people were playing a game VERY similar to Assassin. They called it, 'Werewolf.' I joined them and played many exciting games. I'd soon replaced the word 'killer,' with, 'wolf,' in my brain. The messageboard was sharkey.gamespite.net/forum and its predecessor, www.pyoko.org/forum. And some people logged off and never returned, myself excluded.

Then along came Father Time. He stayed the night on my sofa, and while I was asleep, aged my brain. I suddenly found myself calling videogame systems 'nintendos,' regardless of if they were an Xbocks or a Wii or what-have-you. I still, in fact, slip occasionally and call cereal, 'cheerios,' regardless of their fiber content or lack thereof.

Later, I found a second site (that has since disappeared) where I played a game called Witch Hunt. In Witch we had only a cop (called a seer) and a role I've not seen elsewhere: A magician. The magician could investigate to see who was the cop (seer). And there were people who decided that wasn't complex enough who logged off and were never heard from again, myself excluded.

Then one day I found the Mecca of Assassin/Werewolf/Witchhunt gamers: mafiascum.net, where I was introduced to yet another word for killer/wolf/witch: The word was 'scum.'

Try as I may, when trying to communicate at any kind of tolerable speed, I can't make my brain call a PSP other than "That nintendo thingy with the wide screen." I get teased about my deficiency by youngsters, but I know a secret that they don't know: Being old sucks. I have a boil the size of your eyeball in my buttcheek and it hurts to walk sometimes. Recently one of my molars rotted clean through and I walked around wincing everytime I swallowed for a week. My back hurts all the time... Now, what was I talking about?

Uh...






I know we were discussing something trivial...



I forget. Oh well.

/confirm

Are we told the way of killing or we just find/not find dead bodies?

This makes me think you have a killing role.

Vote: hp [leaves]

I would argue that it's not a scummy question. Not important to ask, but not scummy to ask either.

You're wrong about it not being important AND about it not being a scummy question. It's very important, but the answer is obvious (see: werewolf role, as someone pointed out), which is why HP's concern rubbed me wrong. As I said before, the werewolf (on mafiascum, anyway) has no other purpose than kill flavor distinction, which we need to help us find the scum. QED the answer WAS important and it was ALSO scummy to ask about, in my opinion, due to the fact that

most town would probably jump to the same conclusion I did rather than needing 100% mod validation.

Regardless, I'm now thinking HP was just not giving the thread much thought rather than scum wondering aloud about his own role.

First off, don't strawman me.

I specifically denied that the question was important

TO ASK

. I did not deny that the question itself was important.

The fact that the answer is obvious makes asking it unimportant.

I believe that asking about kill flavor and especially whether or not there were any deaths is a newb tell given when it was asked. I do not see it as a reliable scum tell in this case. In fact, your stance is now identical to mine—hp [leaves] simply wasn't paying attention to the thread. I'd bring up a post I've seen elsewhere about night kills that is an accurate reflection of my beliefs, but it's unfortunately in an ongoing.

In the underlined part you make a distinction which, I believe, is silly.

As subtle as the distinction may be, ignoring it is twisting my words and therefore misrepresenting me.

I didn't ignore anything. You're reaching.

Then do these for me:

• Prove that there is absolutely no difference between "it is unimportant to ask the question" and "the question itself is unimportant". Not that there is such an insignificant difference that they can for most purposes be treated the same in practice; that there is
  ABSOLUTELY NO
  difference.

Ah. More semantics. Your logic is poor, but I'll comply regardless:

If it's scummy to ask, it's a scummy question. To ask. What else do you do with a question? You can't tell a question. You can't eat it. You can't ship it off to Iraq. You can't... you get the point, I'll assume.

Answer these, which you've so gladly skipped over in your response:

If the answer is obvious, then why is it important to ask the question in the first place? And under what circumstances is it important for somebody to ask a scummy question?

Let me try to explain MY take on hp's post once more:

The answer to the question by HP (Will kills have flavor?) was obvious in light of two flavors of mafia. Two flavors of mafia have only one utility: Kill flavor differentiation. Asking about the kill flavor distinction shows that either 1) the player is not cognizant of the utility of werewolves in mafia, which breaks down to A) the player is fixated on kill flavor, meaning they are likely to have a killing role, or B) the player is honestly just seeking clarification and is a noob, or 2) the player is not paying attention to the rules. 1a and 2 are both scumtells. The third is a sign of noobness. My comments were geared toward divining which of these were true. I have no problem unvoting a noob if he can convince me that's all there was to it. I'd like to point out that he never did.

Then along came you. You said that the question wasn't scummy to ask. You went on to say it wasn't important, either.

I specifically denied that the question was important

TO ASK

. I did not deny that the question itself was important.

Now, you go on to claim that I strawmanned you when I said:

You're wrong about it not being important (the words, "to ask" are implied by the word "question") AND about it not being a scummy question. It's very important, but the answer is obvious (see: werewolf role, as someone pointed out), which is why HP's concern rubbed me wrong. As I said before, the werewolf (on mafiascum, anyway) has no other purpose than kill flavor distinction, which we need to help us find the scum. QED the answer WAS important and it was ALSO scummy to ask about, in my opinion, due to the fact that

most town would probably jump to the same conclusion I did rather than needing 100% mod validation.

Please help me out by cutting that block of text down into something more specific. What in there is a strawman? How is it a strawman? Do that for me and I'll feel less like you're just asking questions solely to look pro-town.

I thought pops was a bad lynch because I thought he'd soft-claimed mason.

Why didn't you say so earlier, damn it? ><

IT WAS VERBOTEN TO DISCUSS MASONRY AT THE TIME!!!! I GOT SHOUTED DOWN WHEN I TRIED!!!!! how many times am i going to be asked this? he wasn't a mason, so what's with this question?

When you're asked a question about a specific event, future unknowns do not apply. You thought at the time that he was a mason. You learned after the time I'm talking about that he wasn't, so you cannot use your knowledge otherwise to question my question.

Let's say you hate school so much that you want the principal dead. You kill someone you think is her, but instead turns out to be your best friend's mother. When the police come to question you, you cannot use "I didn't know she wasn't my principal" as an acceptable excuse. Similar to what you're trying to do here.

I don't think you're reading me carefully. What is the purpose behind the question in red in the first place? That's the question I was asking (and validating).

You did little to stall popsofctown's lynch. The second to last post of yours before you voice your disapproval, you say that you would prefer lynching Budja over Tenchi but would be fine going after the latter. I buy your answer that you didn't say why you disapproved of a popsofctown lynch because nobody let you talk about the masons, but your best weapon therefore was to persuade the town that Budja and Tenchi, in your opinion, were better lynch options than popsofctown. Push Budja and Tenchi as much as necessary to achieve the desired effect.

I'm sorry if you don't think I tried to dissuade pop's lynch. I disagree.

Well, if you were unsuccessful, that's really as far as I can go here.

I tried as hard as I felt was necessary. I even kept it vague to give an I-might-be-a-cop-who-is-telling-you-to-back-off feel. That's the strongest way I know to dissuade a lynch. What would you have done to derail said bandwagon?

I agree with everything else you said, but it has no bearing on the conversation, like a man who states a fact about weather during a discussion about sports.

It takes one to know one.

are you reading just my posts by isolation or ---?

I've read the whole game before my replacement was even announced, then I went back and checked who was pinging my scumdar because I had forgotten overnight. It turned out to be you, so I looked at you in isolation.

That's reassuring to hear, but I have evidence that you did not, in fact, read the thread, or only skimmed it. In either case, you did not comprehend the thread, which is the true goal of "reading" the thread.

Present it.

I already have. You brought up an issue which I had already addressed, namely my statement about the scummyness of hp's question about kill flavor. I answered your concerns, but it made me sure you'd skimmed the thread rather than reading the posts. See below.

For the record, I admitted that it was a weak scumtell at best, but it was an early game scumtell, which are usually weak. I still stand by my opinion on the post in question of HP's.

I don't even think the scumtell is valid, but as long as we're on the same page...

The most valid thing you've said about me so far. At least we can agree to disagree on this point.

To reiterate: Your case for my lynch is as follows:

1) Strawmanning you.

I think not, sir.

2) Pointing out a scumtell that you disagree is a scumtell.

I can try to change your mind, but you seem to be tunneling somewhat, so I can only wish you luck with that.

3) Arguing with you...?

I'm not clear on this one.

Is that accurate?

Questions time: What do you think of my case on Tenchi? Can you give me some analysis of it? If not, why not?

[Wall-E]

Sorry about the double post, I pushed submit before I was ready. Here's the final version, please ignore my last post.

I know. Wall-E is still scum.

Why? Aside from you not liking my case on Tenchi?

I haven't forgotten about you strawmanning me to make it look like I said something other than what I said, nor have I forgotten about your craplogic. See below.

What crap logic? More on the Great Strawman of '08 later.

C) I said, "See, Tenchi is scum."

No, you said something more specific than that:

Well, see, Tenchi is the mafia.

Nice job backtracking your statement when werewolves also exist.

Confirm vote: Wall-E.

Sit down on Uncle Wall-E's old lap, sonny, let me tell you a tale.

When I was a young man, some friends and I would play a party game. We called it Assassin. In those days we'd say things like, "StrangerCoug is a killer!" And there was the occasional fistfight or storming-off by various folk, myself excluded.

Now, one day, while parusing the internets, I happened upon a messageboard. On the messageboard, lo and behold, people were playing a game VERY similar to Assassin. They called it, 'Werewolf.' I joined them and played many exciting games. I'd soon replaced the word 'killer,' with, 'wolf,' in my brain. The messageboard was sharkey.gamespite.net/forum and its predecessor, www.pyoko.org/forum. And some people logged off and never returned, myself excluded.

Then along came Father Time. He stayed the night on my sofa, and while I was asleep, aged my brain. I suddenly found myself calling videogame systems 'nintendos,' regardless of if they were an Xbocks or a Wii or what-have-you. I still, in fact, slip occasionally and call cereal, 'cheerios,' regardless of their fiber content or lack thereof.

Later, I found a second site (that has since disappeared) where I played a game called Witch Hunt. In Witch we had only a cop (called a seer) and a role I've not seen elsewhere: A magician. The magician could investigate to see who was the cop (seer). And there were people who decided that wasn't complex enough who logged off and were never heard from again, myself excluded.

Then one day I found the Mecca of Assassin/Werewolf/Witchhunt gamers: mafiascum.net, where I was introduced to yet another word for killer/wolf/witch: The word was 'scum.'

Try as I may, when trying to communicate at any kind of tolerable speed, I can't make my brain call a PSP other than "That nintendo thingy with the wide screen." I get teased about my deficiency by youngsters, but I know a secret that they don't know: Being old sucks. I have a boil the size of your eyeball in my buttcheek and it hurts to walk sometimes. Recently one of my molars rotted clean through and I walked around wincing everytime I swallowed for a week. My back hurts all the time... Now, what was I talking about?

Uh...






I know we were discussing something trivial...



I forget. Oh well.

Answer these, which you've so gladly skipped over in your response:

If the answer is obvious, then why is it important to ask the question in the first place? And under what circumstances is it important for somebody to ask a scummy question?

Let me try to explain MY take on hp's post once more:

The answer to the question by HP (Will kills have flavor?) was obvious in light of two flavors of mafia. Two flavors of mafia have only one utility: Kill flavor differentiation. Asking about the kill flavor distinction shows that either 1) the player is not cognizant of the utility of werewolves in mafia, which breaks down to A) the player is fixated on kill flavor, meaning they are likely to have a killing role, or B) the player is honestly just seeking clarification and is a noob, or 2) the player is not paying attention to the rules, which is either A) because they are a badguy and don't care who dies as long as it's not him or B) it's a sign of total apathy for the game. 1a and 2a are both scumtells. 2b is scummy. My comments were geared toward divining which of these were the case with HP.

I have no problem unvoting a noob if he can convince me that's all there was to it. I'd like to point out that he never did. I'd also like to point out that I defaulted to 1a when the issue was discussed at length previously.

Then along came you. You said that the question wasn't scummy to ask. You went on to say it wasn't important, either.

I specifically denied that the question was important

TO ASK

. I did not deny that the question itself was important.

Now, you go on to claim that I strawmanned you when I said:

You're wrong about it not being important (the words, "to ask" are implied by the word "question") AND about it not being a scummy question. It's very important, but the answer is obvious (see: werewolf role, as someone pointed out), which is why HP's concern rubbed me wrong. As I said before, the werewolf (on mafiascum, anyway) has no other purpose than kill flavor distinction, which we need to help us find the scum. QED the answer WAS important and it was ALSO scummy to ask about, in my opinion, due to the fact that

most town would probably jump to the same conclusion I did rather than needing 100% mod validation.

Please help me out by cutting that block of text down into something more specific. What in there is a strawman? How is it a strawman? Do that for me and I'll feel less like you're just asking questions solely to look pro-town. In the meantime:

/confirm

Are we told the way of killing or we just find/not find dead bodies?

This makes me think you have a killing role.

Vote: hp [leaves]

I would argue that it's not a scummy question. Not important to ask, but not scummy to ask either.

You're wrong about it not being important AND about it not being a scummy question. It's very important, but the answer is obvious (see: werewolf role, as someone pointed out), which is why HP's concern rubbed me wrong. As I said before, the werewolf (on mafiascum, anyway) has no other purpose than kill flavor distinction, which we need to help us find the scum. QED the answer WAS important and it was ALSO scummy to ask about, in my opinion, due to the fact that

most town would probably jump to the same conclusion I did rather than needing 100% mod validation.

Regardless, I'm now thinking HP was just not giving the thread much thought rather than scum wondering aloud about his own role.

First off, don't strawman me.

I specifically denied that the question was important

TO ASK

. I did not deny that the question itself was important.

The fact that the answer is obvious makes asking it unimportant.

I believe that asking about kill flavor and especially whether or not there were any deaths is a newb tell given when it was asked. I do not see it as a reliable scum tell in this case. In fact, your stance is now identical to mine—hp [leaves] simply wasn't paying attention to the thread. I'd bring up a post I've seen elsewhere about night kills that is an accurate reflection of my beliefs, but it's unfortunately in an ongoing.

In the underlined part you make a distinction which, I believe, is silly.

As subtle as the distinction may be, ignoring it is twisting my words and therefore misrepresenting me.

I didn't ignore anything. You're reaching.

Then do these for me:

• Prove that there is absolutely no difference between "it is unimportant to ask the question" and "the question itself is unimportant". Not that there is such an insignificant difference that they can for most purposes be treated the same in practice; that there is
  ABSOLUTELY NO
  difference.

Ah. More semantics. Your logic is poor, but I'll comply regardless:

If it's scummy to ask, it's a scummy question. To ask. What else do you do with a question? You can't tell a question. You can't eat it. You can't ship it off to Iraq. You can't... you get the point, I'll assume.

I thought pops was a bad lynch because I thought he'd soft-claimed mason.

Why didn't you say so earlier, damn it? ><

IT WAS VERBOTEN TO DISCUSS MASONRY AT THE TIME!!!! I GOT SHOUTED DOWN WHEN I TRIED!!!!! how many times am i going to be asked this? he wasn't a mason, so what's with this question?

When you're asked a question about a specific event, future unknowns do not apply. You thought at the time that he was a mason. You learned after the time I'm talking about that he wasn't, so you cannot use your knowledge otherwise to question my question.

Let's say you hate school so much that you want the principal dead. You kill someone you think is her, but instead turns out to be your best friend's mother. When the police come to question you, you cannot use "I didn't know she wasn't my principal" as an acceptable excuse. Similar to what you're trying to do here.

I don't think you're reading me carefully. What is the purpose behind the question in red in the first place? That's the question I was asking (and validating).

You did little to stall popsofctown's lynch. The second to last post of yours before you voice your disapproval, you say that you would prefer lynching Budja over Tenchi but would be fine going after the latter. I buy your answer that you didn't say why you disapproved of a popsofctown lynch because nobody let you talk about the masons, but your best weapon therefore was to persuade the town that Budja and Tenchi, in your opinion, were better lynch options than popsofctown. Push Budja and Tenchi as much as necessary to achieve the desired effect.

I'm sorry if you don't think I tried to dissuade pop's lynch. I disagree.

Well, if you were unsuccessful, that's really as far as I can go here.

I tried as hard as I felt was necessary. I even kept it vague to give an I-might-be-a-cop-who-is-telling-you-to-back-off feel. That's the strongest way I know to dissuade a lynch. What would you have done to derail said bandwagon? It's interesting to me that you're Budja's replacement and you fixated on this detail of my history.

I agree with everything else you said, but it has no bearing on the conversation, like a man who states a fact about weather during a discussion about sports.

It takes one to know one.

are you reading just my posts by isolation or ---?

I've read the whole game before my replacement was even announced, then I went back and checked who was pinging my scumdar because I had forgotten overnight. It turned out to be you, so I looked at you in isolation.

That's reassuring to hear, but I have evidence that you did not, in fact, read the thread, or only skimmed it. In either case, you did not comprehend the thread, which is the true goal of "reading" the thread.

Present it.

I already have. You brought up an issue which I had already addressed, namely my statement about the scummyness of hp's question about kill flavor. I answered your concerns, but it made me sure you'd skimmed the thread rather than reading the posts. See below.

For the record, I admitted that it was a weak scumtell at best, but it was an early game scumtell, which are usually weak. I still stand by my opinion on the post in question of HP's.

I don't even think the scumtell is valid, but as long as we're on the same page...

The most valid thing you've said about me so far. At least we can agree to disagree on this point.

To reiterate: Your case for my lynch is as follows:

1) Strawmanning you.

I think not, sir.

2) Pointing out a scumtell that you disagree is a scumtell.

I can try to change your mind, but you seem to be tunneling somewhat, so I can only wish you luck with that.

3) Arguing with you...?

I'm not clear on this one.

Is that accurate?

Questions time: What do you think of my case on Tenchi? Can you give me some analysis of it? If not, why not?

1) You have (perhaps mistakenly) lied about me attacking you. Before the post before this one, I never had.
2) You have used semantics to argue that I have strawmanned you. I have stated my case on why I think you're being silly.
3) You are enjoying this quote war as much as I am, but it may be turning others off to reading the thread. To those people:

IF YOU ARE HAVING A HARD TIME FOLLOWING THIS THREAD DUE TO THE MASSIVE QUOTE NESTS:

SC AND I ARE KEEPING THE FULL CONTENT OF OUR CONVERSATION QUOTE-NESTED

YOU CAN SAFELY IGNORE OUR POSTS COMPLETELY AND JUST READ THE MOST RECENT EXCHANGE BETWEEN US, WHICH IS LIKE A PAGE LONG AT THIS POINT

I HOPE THAT HELPS, SORRY IF YOU HAVE A LIFE AND CAN'T DIGEST THIS MUCH INFORMATION

[Wall-E]

I agree with Seraphim that SC is giving off town vibes. My question for him now is this: Why does one of me/SC necessarily have to be scum? If I die and flip town, is SC going to be suspect to you?

[StrangerCoug]

I love how you make the "old man" story sound relevant to the game when it's really not.

If it's scummy to ask, it's a scummy question. To ask. What else do you do with a question? You can't tell a question. You can't eat it. You can't ship it off to Iraq. You can't... you get the point, I'll assume.

Very well then.

Let me try to explain MY take on hp's post once more:

The answer to the question by HP (Will kills have flavor?) was obvious in light of two flavors of mafia. Two flavors of mafia have only one utility: Kill flavor differentiation. Asking about the kill flavor distinction shows that either 1) the player is not cognizant of the utility of werewolves in mafia, which breaks down to A) the player is fixated on kill flavor, meaning they are likely to have a killing role, or B) the player is honestly just seeking clarification and is a noob, or 2) the player is not paying attention to the rules. 1a and 2 are both scumtells. The third is a sign of noobness. My comments were geared toward divining which of these were true. I have no problem unvoting a noob if he can convince me that's all there was to it. I'd like to point out that he never did.

Then along came you. You said that the question wasn't scummy to ask. You went on to say it wasn't important, either.

Which I'll address later.

I specifically denied that the question was important

TO ASK

. I did not deny that the question itself was important.

Now, you go on to claim that I strawmanned you when I said:

You're wrong about it not being important (the words, "to ask" are implied by the word "question") AND about it not being a scummy question. It's very important, but the answer is obvious (see: werewolf role, as someone pointed out), which is why HP's concern rubbed me wrong. As I said before, the werewolf (on mafiascum, anyway) has no other purpose than kill flavor distinction, which we need to help us find the scum. QED the answer WAS important and it was ALSO scummy to ask about, in my opinion, due to the fact that

most town would probably jump to the same conclusion I did rather than needing 100% mod validation.

Please help me out by cutting that block of text down into something more specific. What in there is a strawman? How is it a strawman? Do that for me and I'll feel less like you're just asking questions solely to look pro-town.

Will do:

You're wrong about it not being important (the words, "to ask" are implied by the word "question") AND about it not being a scummy question.

Strawmanning me. I never denied the importance of the question itself.

It's very important, but the answer is obvious (see: werewolf role, as someone pointed out), which is why HP's concern rubbed me wrong.

Logical fail. What's the point of asking if it's obvious?

As I said before, the werewolf (on mafiascum, anyway) has no other purpose than kill flavor distinction, which we need to help us find the scum.

No objections to this.

QED the answer WAS important and it was ALSO scummy to ask about, in my opinion, due to the fact that most town would probably jump to the same conclusion I did rather than needing 100% mod validation.

Oh, the

ANSWER

is important. Never mind the question.

Moving on:

Questions time: What do you think of my case on Tenchi? Can you give me some analysis of it? If not, why not?

Looking back, it is starting to make some sense now, but I owe this thread another reread. What I think is Tenchi's scummiest post, though, is #124 where he says he'll STFU and then proceeds to confirm his vote on Soveliss. Comments?

[Wall-E]

I think anyone saying they'll STFU is scummy. Tenchi going back on it could be a gambit, but it's a poor one if so. IMO, there's nothing strictly scummy about continuing to participate in the thread, regardless of what he said previously.

Bah, you broke the quote war and now I feel sad.

When I said "You're wrong about it not being important" I should have been more clear: What I meant to say was "You are wrong if you think there is no significance in HP asking the question."

SC wrote: "What's the point of asking if it's obvious?"

Exactly! Exactly right. That's why I called HP out for doing so. I hadn't considered that HP might just be lazy or a noob. I also stand by this call out. We need scummy townies like I need a hole in my head.

I think that wraps up almost all of the quote war. Hooray for misunderstandings. If there's anything else, I'm pretty bored today, so hit me up.

I'm sticking by my Tenchi lynch push. I recommend more people also research it.

[Wall-E]

SC: There is a question you didn't answer in my super-long post. Can you answer it?

"I tried as hard as I felt was necessary. I even kept it vague to give an I-might-be-a-cop-who-is-telling-you-to-back-off feel. That's the strongest way I know to dissuade a lynch. What would you have done to derail said bandwagon? It's interesting to me that you're Budja's replacement and you fixated on this detail of my history."

[Wall-E]

Seraphim: What about Budja were you suspicious of? I can't remember if I was suspicious of him or not before his replacement, but something SC said recently made me wonder about Budja.

Well you are doing a good job at attracting suspicion so far.

Don't claim you seem scummy because you always do. That holds no water. Defend yourself properly.

FOS Tenchi

However Soveliss does also seem scummy. First he follow-votes HP now it seems he is follow-voting Tenchi.

Confirm vote Soveliss

I see some strong interaction between you two as well, and now you take SC's side in an argument, fallaciously implying that if one of us is wrong that makes the person scum necessarily. Can you comment on that?

...I think that's enough trash-talk for now.

[StrangerCoug]

SC: There is a question you didn't answer in my super-long post. Can you answer it?

"I tried as hard as I felt was necessary. I even kept it vague to give an I-might-be-a-cop-who-is-telling-you-to-back-off feel. That's the strongest way I know to dissuade a lynch. What would you have done to derail said bandwagon? It's interesting to me that you're Budja's replacement and you fixated on this detail of my history."

The easiest way in this setup would be to prove that the case on him is crap, and unfortunately, I understand the reasoning behind his lynch. If I were cop with an innocent on him, I'd softclaim and derail it that way. The problem, however, is that nobody in this game is a cop.

[Wall-E]

That's a clever copout, but I asked what you WOULD have done, not what you would NOT have done.

[StrangerCoug]

Um, read my response again. I said that the easiest way to derail his lynch in this setup is to prove that the case on him is crap. That's what I would have done if I were you. The only way I'm getting what you're complaining about involves my stance on the case against popsofctown, not yours (I don't see the mason soft claim, so if my real self were in the game at this point I'd be partaking in his lynch).

[Tenchi]

I haven't read muck extensively the argument between you two but the only reason why I don't think Wall-E is scum is that I feel scum would let townies explode and kill each other off. I don't think scum would be the first to post a case against another person.

[Wall-E]

Um, read my response again. I said that the easiest way to derail his lynch in this setup is to prove that the case on him is crap. That's what I would have done if I were you. The only way I'm getting what you're complaining about involves my stance on the case against popsofctown, not yours (I don't see the mason soft claim, so if my real self were in the game at this point I'd be partaking in his lynch).

Right. I am asking you to put yourself in my shoes. One of the things you've said of me is that I did not try hard enough to disprove the case on pops. I am asking what you think I should have done instead.

I think if you answer this question truthfully you will have gone back on your entire case against me. At that point I'm going to request you remove your vote on me, or give another reason why it's still on me.

I really wish more people were posting.

[Wall-E]

Oh, I see now what you are saying. Disregard my last post.

[Wall-E]

Here's the rub: I agree with you that the case was good. Modulating that, I also felt he'd softclaimed. Therefore, you saying I should have disproved the case is ridiculous!

[Tenchi]

I think anyone saying they'll STFU is scummy. Tenchi going back on it could be a gambit, but it's a poor one if so. IMO, there's nothing strictly scummy about continuing to participate in the thread, regardless of what he said previously.

1. IT WASNT A GAMBIT. I changed my mind because I felt it was wrong.
2. I am trying to look at timing details here because it might help me figure out who's really scum. It just so happen something apparently happened during what I did and I find it suspicious.
3. If you think somebody saying STFU is scummy, then I think I can also suspect who tries to post a big case on my when supposedly I am away.

[StrangerCoug]

I haven't read muck extensively the argument between you two but the only reason why I don't think Wall-E is scum is that I feel scum would let townies explode and kill each other off. I don't think scum would be the first to post a case against another person.

FoS: Tenchi

for WIFOM.

[Wall-E]

You can't pre-empt cases against you by saying you'll be gone. What the hell, Tenchi?

[Wall-E]

Best. Three-player game. Ever.

[ZazieR]

If Budja wasn't getting replaced, I would definitely change my vote to him. His call for a cease-fire seems rather scummy to me. I also just don't like the feel of his posts in general. I guess we'll wait to see what his replacement says, but...

Pops is still probably the lynch for the day, though. His entire mason-hunt reeks, along with his constant revoting really bugs me.

Other than that, though, I really have nothing else to say. Though, if there are any issues you want me to talk about, feel free to post them. This is all based on my quick reread(living the high school high life, woo) that I could squeeze in. So, anything to make my job easier would be nice.

Vote: Wall-E

This argument...arguments like this often kill games like this. However, I am getting more town vibes from StrangerCoug. Also, I had been getting scum vibes from Wall-E even before Day 2. I'm going to do a re-read to see if the facts confirm my gut instinct at the moment.

No sign of Wall-E in his list of suspicions (or at least not note worthy to say) and no scumhunting at all. This deserves an

Unvote Vote Seraphim

[ZazieR]

EBWOP

If Budja wasn't getting replaced, I would definitely change my vote to him. His call for a cease-fire seems rather scummy to me. I also just don't like the feel of his posts in general. I guess we'll wait to see what his replacement says, but...

Pops is still probably the lynch for the day, though. His entire mason-hunt reeks, along with his constant revoting really bugs me.

Other than that, though, I really have nothing else to say. Though, if there are any issues you want me to talk about, feel free to post them. This is all based on my quick reread(living the high school high life, woo) that I could squeeze in. So, anything to make my job easier would be nice.

Vote: Wall-E

This argument...arguments like this often kill games like this. However, I am getting more town vibes from StrangerCoug. Also, I had been getting scum vibes from Wall-E even before Day 2. I'm going to do a re-read to see if the facts confirm my gut instinct at the moment.

No sign of Wall-E in his list of suspicions (or at least not note worthy to say) and no scumhunting at all. This deserves an

Unvote Vote Seraphim