Open 105: Crush Mafia (Game Over) before 714

[charter]

Vote Count:

ortolan - 2 (neko2086, Darox)
Kmd4390 - 1 (populartajo)
Darox - 2 (farside22, Kmd4390)
neko2086 - 1(ortolan)

Not Voting: (1)

Crazy

With 7 alive, it takes 4 to lynch!

[neko2086]

Do you honestly believe I've in any way "sat on the sidelines" at all this game?

Uh, yeah. Tell me what you were hoping to accomplish by unvoting.

Another point: Crazy had previously also taken Darox off L-1 in Post 124, why didn't you (and farside) jump on him for doing it then as you've now done to me?

Because yours was under the guise of a discussion-promoter.

if you thought the votes on Darox were useful (which they clearly weren't as he still hasn't explained whatever his "gambit" was supposed to accomplish), then when I withdrew my vote you could simply have supplemented it with your own in order to maintain the pressure. You didn't.

Except by that point, you were more of a concern, so that'd be kinda dumb, wouldn't it?

What was I trying to accomplish by voting (completely seriously!!!) for Darox for being the lyncher in Post 30, then withdrawing the suspicion in Post 34

Good lord, how many times do I need to explain it? You vote, you're questioned about it. You unvote. This isn't rocket science.

you still need to explain why under this hypothesis I did not simply pm the mod to ask [about the setup ? thing].

Why wouldn't town ask in a pm? Scum are perfectly capable of pretending to be an interested info-gathering townie.

So it's not possible people are advancing scum agendas by tunneling on an innocent question?

Sure, but I don't think it's the case here.

Again, what was [the supposed joke] a cover for? Without explaining what I was trying to accomplish as scum you're just fishing for reasons to vote me.

Sorry. By "it" I mean you're saying it was a joke. It appears that you were saying it was a joke to cover for a slip-up.

You've latched onto the idea that "attacking people for asking questions is scummy" without looking at my clearly stated opinion that I did not think scumminess could be read into my initial setup question

That's fine and dandy that you think no scumminess could be read into your question, but guess what, you're not the final authority on that. I don't know why this is so difficult to understand, but WE HAVE TO QUESTION EVERYTHING! When you attack people for questioning your posts, that's not helpful. Stifling discussion is rarely helpful.

Again, I ask, what was my mistake?

If it's not clear by now, I don't know what else I can tell you.

You're trying to make the case against me look more substantial than it is.

It doesn't take much, sometimes. I can't say, though, that I'm 100% on you being scum. Others need to talk more, and we're only 8 pages into this. I'm just going off of what we've got so far, which includes what looks very much to me like a scum-slip and an attempt to minimize it as well as my suspicion.

[ortolan]

When you summarise your case like that it's really clear that it's just an attempt to read wiki-scumtells into my actions wherever possible.

And about my unvote: it was probably a pointless move, but it clearly had no impact on the game, if I thought Darox was scum I would happily re-vote him. I guess I could chalk it down to a combination of thinking he might be the lynch target (although very unlikely as he was sitting on L-1 for more than a day), wanting to insure against a newb hammering (as Crazy already did- you didn't answer in your post why he's not scummy for doing the same thing as me btw), plus him being so adamant about me being scum almost make me think he is townie being bad rather than scum himself.

Kmd: would you be happy to lynch me also? I am your leading suspect for most of Post 138, after all.

[Kmd4390]

Kmd: would you be happy to lynch me also? I am your leading suspect for most of Post 138, after all.

WIFOM reason, but I'd rather not lynch you today.

[ortolan]

What is the "WIFOM reason"?

and have any of your opinions changed about tajo, farside and Crazy from their more recent posts?

[Kmd4390]

Tajo, I'm not getting my normal pro town read on. He doesn't seem to be adding much. He's also voting me and I'm not completely sure why. An explanation of that vote would be nice.

Farside doesn't seem to be doing much either. Neutral read though because from what I've seen, that's her style.

Crazy seems to be posting mostly theory and setup things, especially early. He also backed off of Darox pretty easy for being overly scummy.

[Crazy]

Or he could be making this in purpose so you can think he isnt scum. You know, WIFOM.
Ive heard Darox is a good player. Do you think its possible he is doing this?

That's pretty heavy. I'm not saying that it couldn't be possible, but since I'm about the only person I know that views some really scummy things as non-scummy, I doubt Darox is doing that... unless if he knows my meta that well from Lovers' Multiball... which I doubt.

My guess, he's just acting lazy this game and not bothering to put the pro-town face on. And generally, the people that do that IMO are more likely to be town than scum.

Crazy, I'd also like to know why you think Darox the lynchee. Is it just because he's come close to a lynch? Who do you think is the lyncher, then?

Also, do you have any reasoning that doesn't depend on WIFOM?

Someone's got to be the lynchee, and Darox has come close to a lynch several times for IMO arbitrary reasons. I'd say farside, then ort as the lyncher.

For the WIFOM question,

not really

. I always say that everything in mafia is WIFOM, or nothing is, depending on how you look at it. For me, I don't run away from situations that seem WIFOM-ish. Which is why I like WIFOM-loaded games like this/Jester/etc.

Nice. You've used WIFOM to cover WIFOM logic. I'm also starting to get the feeling you're the lyncher. Early on, you tried to convince everyone Orto was the lyncher, which I'm pretty certain is not the case. Also, you said

That thing with Ort at the beginning was a joke...

which is, basically, a threat to anyone who tries to discuss who they think the lyncher is. Is Darox your target?

No, I'm not saying that. That quote was a response to Ort saying "people are calling me the lyncher so they can discredit my arguments." I say, uhh, no, even "insert quote" is more likely than scum doing that.

Besides, I don't really have to defend myself from being the lyncher. If you guys think I'm the lyncher, I don't really care. All I can do is point a finger at farside.

See the problem I have is Darox usually makes some effort that I can read and not just post to post. That is my biggest issue. I find it anti-town to say the least. Trouble is I really don't have a good read on many others.

See, she stays on the wagon because the target is "anti-town." *eyeroll*

Also note farside has kept her vote on Darox the whole game.

Kmd: would you be happy to lynch me also? I am your leading suspect for most of Post 138, after all.

WIFOM reason, but I'd rather not lynch you today.

Awesomeness. Right after he said he'd support ort's decision in lynching Neko, since Neko had been his second pick. But note KMD's original post when he was replacing in. The last order he posted was

Biggest scum reads:
1.ortolan
2.Tajo
3.Darox
4.Neko

So yeah, my guess:

Scum - ort & Kmd
Lyncher - farside
Lynchee - Darox
Town - Me, Tajo, Neko

Vote: ortolan

, even though it's L-1, it's late enough in the day for it.

[Kmd4390]

Biggest scum reads:
1.ortolan
2.Tajo
3.Darox
4.Neko

So yeah, my guess:

Scum - ort & Kmd
Lyncher - farside
Lynchee - Darox
Town - Me, Tajo, Neko

Vote: ortolan

, even though it's L-1, it's late enough in the day for it.

Things have changed in the last 2 pages. Right now, it's more like 1.Darox/Neko 2.Tajo

[Crazy]

Yes, but you had said:

ortolan, I can go for a neko lynch. See my catchup post. I almost voted neko over Darox.

[Kmd4390]

Ok, I looked at it a little closer. My scum list was the one from page 5. The one you posted. Page 6, Darox looked scummy as hell. So I voted Darox. Neko looked suspicious to me throughout the entire catchup.

So yeah, that's accurate. I almost voted Neko, but then Darox looked bad on Page 6, so I voted him.

[ortolan]

why are you voting me Crazy?

Darox has given no reasons for voting me and neko's reasons are crap. If you're town it's one bandwagon you shouldn't be joining.

[ortolan]

And do you think I'm acting the same way I did as scum in the last open game we played together Crazy???

[ortolan]

Also,

My guess, he's just acting lazy this game and not bothering to put the pro-town face on. And generally, the people that do that IMO are more likely to be town than scum.

You seem oblivious to the fact this could equally be said of me. The main reason I seem to be attracting votes is drawing attention to myself with the setup question. And at least I'm playing properly, Darox is just laying down votes with no justification.

It's amusing both you and neko have argued Darox is the lynchee. It's not like people voted for him for say...voting without giving reasons or anything. If he were in fact the lynchee it's not like he wouldn't deserve to be lynched anyway.

Kmd: would you be happy to lynch me also? I am your leading suspect for most of Post 138, after all.

WIFOM reason, but I'd rather not lynch you today.

Awesomeness. Right after he said he'd support ort's decision in lynching Neko, since Neko had been his second pick. But note KMD's original post when he was replacing in. The last order he posted was

Biggest scum reads:
1.ortolan
2.Tajo
3.Darox
4.Neko

Ironically you are guilty of doing *exactly* the same thing in this very post. I see barely any mention of me the entire post (apart from suggesting I am the lyncher when Darox is the lynchee, LOL @ this considering I unvoted him and in the process brought further suspicion on myself- that sure seems consistent with being the lyncher to me!!!).

Yet at the end you conclude I'm likely to be scum with kmd. Not only does this contradict your earlier (ridiculous) suggestion I am the lyncher but is also completely at odds with the rest of the content of your post.

[Kmd4390]

ortolan, also, the list he posted was my Page 5 thoughts. After that list, I post thoughts on Page 6. After that, I played the game on Pages 7 and 8. The list is sure to be outdated by now.

[neko2086]

When you summarise your case like that it's really clear that it's just an attempt to read wiki-scumtells into my actions wherever possible.

When you summarize my case like that it's really clear that it's just an attempt to minimize the points I've brought up.

[ortolan]

as I've said, you don't really have a "case", more a selection of "wiki-scumtells"

Kmd, what is the "WIFOM Reason" you were talking about earlier?

[farside22]

I <3 u crazy.

unvote:
vote: ortolan

[Darox]

And that's day one wrapped up.

[ortolan]

farside is the lyncher and I'm the target??? Just my luck.

wd Darox, your play was truly world-class

if by any chance farside isn't lyncher (4 unexplained hammer) then imo lynch tomorrow followed by neko

[ortolan]

Oh btw, if only for my own benefit, assuming farside is the lyncher, I'm calling out Crazy and neko as the scum-team (voting me for crappy and transparently crappy at that reasons)

[farside22]

Oh btw, if only for my own benefit, assuming farside is the lyncher, I'm calling out Crazy and neko as the scum-team (voting me for crappy and transparently crappy at that reasons)

I really think Darox is acting scummy but I agree with you about Crazy.

[Crazy]

Farside, were you the lyncher or the goon? You can't possibly be town, or the godfather either.

[Kmd4390]

Kmd, what is the "WIFOM Reason" you were talking about earlier?

That you are the lynchee...

[Darox]

Until charter comes back and reveals I'm not believing anything.

[Crazy]

I'd argue my case, but really there's no point... either farside is the lyncher and we've just lost, or she's scum and we lynch her tomorrow.

So... pff.