Open 105: Crush Mafia (Game Over) before 714

[ortolan]

ArE YoU The JEsTeR?

Why on earth would we waste our time and resources lynching the lyncher? Doing so only helps the scum. This is exactly the sort of thing that has me worried about ortolan, in case you didn't notice.

It's hard not to consider this disingenuous when firstly I gave no indication of a desire to take my vote on Darox through to a lynch, and secondly I stated the fact four posts later that both my vote and suggestion he was the lyncher was a joke.

[charter]

Vote Count:

ortolan - 2 (neko2086, Darox)
Kmd4390 - 1 (populartajo)

Darox - 3 (farside22, ortolan, Kmd4390)

Not Voting: (1)

Crazy

With 7 alive, it takes 4 to lynch!

[ortolan]

Unvote

to promote discursion

[Crazy]

Hmm, I'll look into this game tomorrow.

[farside22]

Unvote

to promote discursion

How do you think unvoting helps promote disucssion expect to ask why you unvoted.

FOS

Darox should have more to say then hi at this point. How about actually playing and scum hunting.

[neko2086]

I stated the fact

four posts later

that both my vote and suggestion he was the lyncher was a joke.

That's the problem.

[ortolan]

Unvote

to promote discursion

How do you think unvoting helps promote disucssion expect to ask why you unvoted.

FOS

Darox should have more to say then hi at this point. How about actually playing and scum hunting.

I don't want Darox to be hammered day one (as townies have done in 2 other open games I've played), if indeed there is an explanation for the stupid way he is playing. Darox: please explain whatever your "gambit" was meant to accomplish.

I stated the fact

four posts later

that both my vote and suggestion he was the lyncher was a joke.

That's the problem.

Elaborate.

[Crazy]

Oohkay, now this must sound weird, but I'm not all that sure Darox is scum. His playstyle in this game is... weird, but I'm lost on why scum would adopt a weird playstyle, especially one that makes him look so scummy.

If you think that's WIFOM, then think again on what the chances are of Darox purposely adopting a scummy playstyle to look more pro-town. Yeah...

And to be honest, I think Darox has quite a high chance of being the lynchee...

[Crazy]

Wait, need to add something.

Now the reason my argument thing that I just said can't apply to all situations in the game of mafia is that Darox doesn't seem to be giving any effort to try to look town. The things that make him "scummy" here are things that scum could just avoid, like the pointless votes, weird answers, etc. It's when people are doing that stuff while

trying

to look like they're not doing it when that's scummy.

I've said something to this effect in Lovers' Multiball, in which I was pro-town.

Pwnz's vote was silly bandwagoning. I don't really know how to take that, but generally I'm more suspect of the people that are

trying

to look town.

[ortolan]

Oohkay, now this must sound weird, but I'm not all that sure Darox is scum. His playstyle in this game is... weird, but I'm lost on why scum would adopt a weird playstyle, especially one that makes him look so scummy.

If you think that's WIFOM, then think again on what the chances are of Darox purposely adopting a scummy playstyle to look more pro-town. Yeah...

This is exactly why I unvoted, to give him a chance to stop looking so scummy. He doesn't appear to have taken me up on the offer yet.

And to be honest, I think Darox has quite a high chance of being the lynchee...

What led you to this conclusion?

[Kmd4390]

Not that there's a lot here, but I'll catch up to what I missed tonight or tomorrow. New Year blah blah excuse stuff.

[populartajo]

Oohkay, now this must sound weird, but I'm not all that sure Darox is scum. His playstyle in this game is... weird, but I'm lost on why scum would adopt a weird playstyle, especially one that makes him look so scummy.

If you think that's WIFOM, then think again on what the chances are of Darox purposely adopting a scummy playstyle to look more pro-town. Yeah...

And to be honest, I think Darox has quite a high chance of being the lynchee...

Or he could be making this in purpose so you can think he isnt scum. You know, WIFOM.
Ive heard Darox is a good player. Do you think its possible he is doing this?
Ortolan, Darox is acting scummy or do you think he is scum?

[ortolan]

If he is considered a good player then I find it hard to believe he's town, he's not certainly not benefiting town by playing like this.

He's just left us hanging having placed a completely useless vote/attack against me

[charter]

Reminding Darox to post.

Official prods resuming now, best watch out. Hope everyone had a good holiday!
I'm going to be on vacation from the 4th to the 11th, but I should be able to check this once a day, just to let you all know.

[neko2086]

Orto, you said it was a joke after you were questioned on it. Scum tend to lie, you know, so saying it's a joke afterward doesn't necessarily make it so.

When it comes down to it, though, kmd blatantly said he'd like to lynch the lyncher. Also, I just realized that my theory that the mafia is most likely to make the mistake of lyncher-hunting to appear hunting is flawed, since the lyncher could make the same mistake.

Unvoting is, frankly, a shitty way to promote discussion. Sounds like an attempt to quietly sit on the sidelines. So, I'm keeping my vote.

Crazy, I'd also like to know why you think Darox the lynchee. Is it just because he's come close to a lynch? Who do you think is the lyncher, then?

Also, do you have any reasoning that doesn't depend on WIFOM?

If you think that's WIFOM, then think again on what the chances are of Darox purposely adopting a scummy playstyle to look more pro-town. Yeah...

Nice. You've used WIFOM to cover WIFOM logic. I'm also starting to get the feeling you're the lyncher. Early on, you tried to convince everyone Orto was the lyncher, which I'm pretty certain is not the case. Also, you said

"Player X is the lyncher" is more likely scum defending their scum-partner rather than scum trying to discredit all of a townie's arguments.

which is, basically, a threat to anyone who tries to discuss who they think the lyncher is. Is Darox your target?

[farside22]

Oohkay, now this must sound weird, but I'm not all that sure Darox is scum. His playstyle in this game is... weird, but I'm lost on why scum would adopt a weird playstyle, especially one that makes him look so scummy.

If you think that's WIFOM, then think again on what the chances are of Darox purposely adopting a scummy playstyle to look more pro-town. Yeah...

And to be honest, I think Darox has quite a high chance of being the lynchee...

See the problem I have is Darox usually makes some effort that I can read and not just post to post. That is my biggest issue. I find it anti-town to say the least. Trouble is I really don't have a good read on many others.

[Kmd4390]

I've heard that Darox is a good player too. If he is town, he's doing something and should tell us what because otherwise, he isn't helping. If he's scum, he's trying the whole WIFOM thing or playing a crap game. If he's the lynchee, see town. If he's the lyncher, see scum. I'm not sure what's up, but something is weird.

Neko, I said I'd lynch the lyncher before I thought more closely about it. At first, I figured, "Hey, anti-town role. Mafia lynch is better, but anti-town role lynch is a good second." Then I realized what our numbers looked like. We don't really have room to sacrafice that. Hopefully the scum target someone they think is the lyncher. It's in their best interest as well as ours to do this.

[Darox]

For the record, I still believe in my previous choices;
Ortolan as scum, Crazy as the lyncher.

In other news, Darox, a good player? Good lord what a shock that would be.

[populartajo]

For the record, I still believe in my previous choices;
Ortolan as scum, Crazy as the lyncher.

In other news, Darox, a good player? Good lord what a shock that would be.

Blame armlx.

[populartajo]

EBWOP
That also means that I dont consider you to be a good player.

[Kmd4390]

I haven't played with Darox enough to know if he's a good player. Can't remember exactly where I heard it.

[ortolan]

Unvoting is, frankly, a shitty way to promote discussion. Sounds like an attempt to quietly sit on the sidelines. So, I'm keeping my vote.

Do you honestly believe I've in any way "sat on the sidelines" at all this game?

Another point: Crazy had previously also taken Darox off L-1 in Post 124, why didn't you (and farside) jump on him for doing it then as you've now done to me?

Finally, neko, if you thought the votes on Darox were useful (which they clearly weren't as he still hasn't explained whatever his "gambit" was supposed to accomplish), then when I withdrew my vote you could simply have supplemented it with your own in order to maintain the pressure. You didn't.

Now while I was considering re-voting Darox I'm thinking neko's escaped scrutiny for a lot of scummy behaviour this game. In addition to the points above, I am also skeptical of his suspicion of me. You need to explain what my scum motivation for posts 30 and 34 was. What was I trying to accomplish by voting (completely seriously!!!) for Darox for being the lyncher in Post 30, then withdrawing the suspicion in Post 34. Post 41 which you laid down while "re-reading" is just a hint that you find my play suspicious, probably to make a later vote look more justified. However the point you made here "while re-reading" wasn't even an original one, and had already been made by Crazy in Post 35.

It's still quite possible that ortolan asked the question as scum to try to figure out whether he should be looking for the lyncher, but I don't think it's necessarily a scummy thing to ask.

As you later went on to conclude I am scum, presumably with this as supporting evidence you still need to explain why under this hypothesis I did not simply pm the mod to ask.

And while I'm loathe to continue discussion of the setup question it seems to be the main point of your case against me (probably why the case is so weak) so I shall have to:

Ortolan worries me the most so far. His defensiveness when being interrogated, and his threats to vote people for continuing to question him aren't sitting well with me.

So it's not possible people are advancing scum agendas by tunneling on an innocent question?

It wasn't clear at all that it was a joke, and if it was, it really wasn't all that funny... it looks more like a cover to me at the moment.

Again, what was it a cover for? Without explaining what I was trying to accomplish as scum you're just fishing for reasons to vote me.

mmm I'm pretty sure I just said why. Do you remember threatening to vote people for questioning you? Yeah, that's not very pro-town. We need to question people on everything, even the little things (especially on D1), because that's the only chance we have of flushing out the scum.

This is what I've seen called "spouting protown platitudes without the knowledge behind them" in another game. You've latched onto the idea that "attacking people for asking questions is scummy" without looking at my clearly stated opinion that I did not think scumminess could be read into my initial setup question, which by extension is a grounds for suspecting anyone who tried to read scumminess into it. As I said, it's subjective whether this is the case, but unless you can prove my setup question was objectively scummy, then you can't prove that responding to and attacking people that portray me as scummy for asking it is itself scummy.

pop, do you play by the assumption that the scum aren't going to make mistakes? I'm just trying to get a feel for why you think ortolan is more likely town just because he'd be playing badly if he were scum... Also, now that ortolan answered your question to him, I realize that it was kinda a weird question to ask. What were you hoping to accomplish?

Again, I ask, what was my mistake? What was I trying to accomplish as scum, that I failed to?

Why on earth would we waste our time and resources lynching the lyncher? Doing so only helps the scum. This is exactly the sort of thing that has me worried about ortolan, in case you didn't notice.

You're trying to make the case against me look more substantial than it is. This all stems from you claiming I was attempting to get Darox lynched in Post 30 "for being the lyncher", which as I've said you're a long way from establishing successfully, especially in light of my almost immediate unvote. I have not seen any coherent hypothesis from you for me being scum- you're just latching on and trying very hard to read conventional scum-tells in my play without explaining my actions as scum holistically.

Vote: neko2086

[Darox]

The above post cements my suspicion that ortolan is scum.

[ortolan]

We can discuss the failure of your scum-catching methods when the game is over, but for now please present a case against me or unvote, friend.

[Kmd4390]

ortolan, I can go for a neko lynch. See my catchup post. I almost voted neko over Darox.