Princess Bride Mafia - Game Over

[massive]

Cam: I'm not getting indignant. I'm just trying to help everyone ELSE see my point of view. I think I've taken the most logical conclusions, but I also concur that my own knowledge of my innocence plays a key role in making these decisions (that is, without knowing my allegiance, you can't assume that I'm logically sound). THAT is why I am more than happy to volunteer to die - it gives the other townies one more piece of information to base their decisions off of. It's not throwing the towel in. It's realizing that what may be best for the town may not be one's continued existence. I stick by what I said: lynching me will prove me right. That's not something the ROUSes can afford at this juncture in the game.

I've never said that I made the choice not to protect someone that night. I've always said I'm a conditional doctor. As for being irresponsible in my protection choices - shrug. At the point each choice was made, DP had been not only the investigator but the really accurate investigator, not to mention our only lead for any info. No one presented themselves as a better protection candidate. No one died. Shrug. I do agree that a Mafia comprised of Leonidas, Werebear, and mlaker does not seem like one who would continually attack the investigator, but with both the doctor and the backup doctor dead, they may have assumed that any remaining protection was one-shot at best. Once the game is over, I guess we'll see who choose what, but until then I'm going on the assumption that I picked right those nights.

My favorite part of the game so far:

Or like asking one rodent to clear another rodent

... from yesterday. Is that exactly what she attempted to do today? Sure looks like it.

I would like more discussion on the possible HOWs to the ROUS mechanic. Is it a one-per-ROUS recruit? Is it an if-protected-then-recruit? Is it something entirely different? Is there a way we can prove or disprove some of these ideas by who we lynch today?

[Norinel]

Norinel, I was having a hard time believing that we had 2 rats from the beginning, but 3?

I'm going with the two mafia-from-the-beginning theory. When there are two families, they often have the same number of people as a balancing measure.

Who?! There's nobody left but massive.

And you, whom I've had a nongreat feeling about recently.

That's asking me to believe that Someone was an ROUS who knew the "secret townie code" so well that he was able to convince me.

Well, I've already hypothesized that the ROUS (Back when we all thought it was an SK, which was first proposed by Someone and you after the first two-kill night) was given the townie rolename as a safe claim. The human mafia also got a bonus, Leo's lynch immunity (Unless it's a part of a pro-town role's ability, which would be strange), so it makes sense that the rats would get one as well.

Why wasn't massive (our only other possibility for ROUS) or Dourgrim let in on it?

Because massive is probably not (IMO, he's much less suspicious than you, just misguided) a rat, and when Dourgrim claimed, his lynch was pretty much inevitable, so claiming townie then would have made us go after the other claimed townies, since we'd've known that the rats have a recruiting ability or the townie role name then.

Now, on to Talitha. Yesterday, when we were discussing the possibility of the game having 2 rats from the start, she wrote:

...they would have to be one of our uncleared... massive, Sugar or Someone.

She didn't investigate either massive or myself. It makes no sense that she investigated mathcam (the previously investigated/cleared jadesmar), to check for a recruitment.

Although it may have made this day a bit more annoying, it's not insane, and doing it as scum wouldn't have given her a clear advantage.

On the other hand, lynching mathcam may stop massive's "one recruit each" ROUS theory. The problem is, we won't really know after his death if that's what happened, if he's not "officially" recruited yet.

On the other other hand, you may be the last rat.

vote: Sugar

[MeMe]

The Very 1st Day Eight Count:

Talitha

(2):

Sugar, massive

Sugar

(1):

Norinel

Not voting (5):

Fishbulb, mathcam, mikehart, mole, Talitha

Five = Night Nine

[Sugar]

Norinel: So you believe that Dourgrim and I were the original 2 ROUSes, but as a bonus, only I was given the townie information? Because if you remember, when they (someone, mole, mikehart) each came out as townies, I was skeptical of their claims until they satisfied me with clues. Wouldn't the better play have been to hush up and try to blend in?

I'm sure your suspicions thrill the actual scum. But then again, I've no abilities with which to aid the town, so lynching me to prove this theory wrong would be fine. Sad for me, but perhaps ultimately better for the town.

And it might be a good idea to remind the town that Talitha cleared

you

on D7, well after she was bitten.

[Sugar]

Any chance of mod nudges to mole and mikehart? Mole hasn't posted here since 9/22 (but is active in other threads) and mikehart has been away from the boards for a week now.

[MeMe]

~grumbles~

Alright - poking mole, replacing mikehart.

To any who saw this pre-edit...

eek

!

[Talitha]

(Never mind the fact that, if she were still an inspector, she would have inspected ME since I was the one she was most suspicious of and actually voted for. Or at least would have cleared an uncleared townie.)

I did NOT vote for you! The only person I voted for yesterday was Someone. Yes I expressed vague suspicions, but after I thought about it I realised it is very unlikely that you're scum... Who else but Fezzik could have protected me from the ROUS bite?

I'm sorry if you don't like my investigation choices. I am completely happy to investigate whomever the town decides, so feel free to help me out, instead of just being critical. I didn't really think it would matter to you who I investigated last night because if I'm scum (as many of you think) then my investigations are not worth the pixels that they're written on. I happen to be very attached to the recruiting theory. Someone knew the name of the townie role!!!!! The most obvious explanation is that he was a townie who was recruited.

Do you really want to risk losing your only investigator in a town with unknown rodent/s? You can verify me by lynching mathcam today (or lynching him tomorrow if you want to make absolutely sure that it doesn't take 24 hours.

[Norinel]

It doesn't come as a direct response to any of her arguments, but it's worth pointing out that Sugar was the first to propose ROUS recruiting.

Norinel: So you believe that Dourgrim and I were the original 2 ROUSes, but as a bonus, only I was given the townie information?

No, I believe you, Someone, and Dourgrim were the original ROUSes, you've never had recruiting ability, and all had the townie name. Dourgrim didn't use it because his lynch was all but inevitable and claiming townie would have clued us in that there could be rats amongst the townies.

Because if you remember, when they (someone, mole, mikehart) each came out as townies, I was skeptical of their claims until they satisfied me with clues. Wouldn't the better play have been to hush up and try to blend in?

No, it sounds like you did exactly what I would if I were a real townie in that situation.

But then again, I've no abilities with which to aid the town, so lynching me to prove this theory wrong would be fine. Sad for me, but perhaps ultimately better for the town.

I think so. Here's my plan:

Assuming:
The rats can't kill and recruit on the same night.
If the rats can recruit, everyone they've recruited has been posted as being bitten in the thread.
If the rats can recruit, either the kill + protect = recruit theory or the last ROUS to be recruited can recruit theory is correct.
If the rats can recruit, there was only one to start with.
No rat has investigative immunity.

Today, we lynch Sugar.
Tonight, massive protects nobody and Talitha investigates massive. Somebody dies, somebody gets wounded (Presumably recruited, unless massive was the original third rat), or nothing happens. This means we either have seven players with two or three bitten or six players with two bitten, a town majority either way.
Talitha will probably claim to get a guilty result. (Because massive's the last rat or she's lying)
We lynch the last person to have been wounded (mathcam or whoever's been wounded N9). If they turn out to be a rat, we lynch mathcam and Talitha. If they don't, we have to decide whether the recruit happens a day after the bite to decide to lynch the bitten or massive the next day.

And it might be a good idea to remind the town that Talitha cleared

you

on D7, well after she was bitten.

Yup. So I would be up in the air, but since the general consensus seems to be that any recruiting would involve being bitten, there probably wasn't more than one original ROUS (Dourgrim), and the human mafia is dealt with, only the bitten and uninvestigated are suspects, at least to me.

[Talitha]

Now, on to Talitha. Yesterday, when we were discussing the possibility of the game having 2 rats from the start, she wrote:

...they would have to be one of our uncleared... massive, Sugar or Someone.

She didn't investigate either massive or myself. It makes no sense that she investigated mathcam (the previously investigated/cleared jadesmar), to check for a recruitment. We had absolutely no discussion yesterday about possible unbitten recruits, this is just scummy.

I'm sorry for my poor performance I am very caught up in real life right now. I am getting married in 2 weeks. I can barely concentrate on anything for more than 5 seconds without my mind racing off elsewhere. Lynch me if you like (really, you'd be doing me a favour), or tell me who to investigate.

[Talitha]

I would like more discussion on the possible HOWs to the ROUS mechanic. Is it a one-per-ROUS recruit? Is it an if-protected-then-recruit? Is it something entirely different? Is there a way we can prove or disprove some of these ideas by who we lynch today?

You told me earlier in the game that there is no way that Someone was protected when he was bitten. Now you're bringing it up as a possibility again, why? Possibly because you have the preconceived idea that I'm scum, and you want to change the facts to suit your theory?

I'll give you my theories for what they're worth:

Maybe after the rodents choose their night target MeMe throws a dice.
Eg. If she gets a 1 or 2 nothing happens, a 3 is a recruit (with leg wound), a 4 is a recruit (without leg wound), 5 or 6 is a kill...

Another theory that I think someone (with a small 's') mentioned earlier is that maybe it's only the townies who can be recruited. So if a rodent attacks a townie it's a recruit, but if they attack a named character it's a death (or leg wound if they're protected).

[MeMe]

PBuG replaces mikehart, effective immediately - mole has been prodded.

[TBuG]

Hi. I'm going to read the thread right now, so I'd like it if you didn't lynch anyone untill I'm caught up...

[TBuG]

*notices that the thread is 31 pages long*
Could somebody just brief on, like, who roleclaimed, who's suspicious, who's confirmed pro-town?

[Fishbulb]

Talitha/DP (Grandpa, innocent by rite N1)
Fishbulb 2 replaces CRiX (The King, innocent by rite N2)
mathcam (? but innocent via DP N3 & N8 and rite N4)
massive (Fezzik)
mikehart (generic Florin townie, innocent via DP N6)
mole (generic Florin townie, innocent by rite N6)
Norinel replaces Darkblade (Westley, innocent by DP N7)
Sugar (generic Florin townie)

One of the issues, however, is that some suspect that the ROUS's can recruit. If that is the case, then no one is confirmed. You really need to read the last couple days at least, since that covers the ROUS discussions.

[massive]

You told me earlier in the game that there is no way that Someone was protected when he was bitten. Now you're bringing it up as a possibility again, why?

I want to make sure we've covered all the possibilities under the sky. I'm pretty confident that you and cam are mice now but I want to make sure that we've considered every possible avenue before deciding how to proceed today.

You also suggested the possibility that there might be ROUS recruits WITHOUT the leg bite. Any reason why you suggested this?

And once again, please don't take what I'm saying in a negative light. I think you've done exactly what I would have done in your situation - I just am considering your situation as being "I am mafia" and not "I am the innocent cop."

If only townies can be recruited, then we should have won the game, since only Someone fits that description. Or are we going back to another starting ROUS? In which case, that other initial ROUS wouldn't be one of the remaining townies, since we're then presuming that the ROUSes were NOT given the townie info as a safe role claim (since that was only a possible point if Someone was an initial ROUS). Which, again, assuming that an ROUS wouldn't attack him/herself, means that the remaining ROUS is either Norinel, Fishbulb, or myself, and Norinel and Fishbulb have been cleared. It's not me. Logic fails.

-- doctor massik

[mathcam]

Massive: Okay, it sounded like indignant, but maybe it wasn't. It's hard to read emotions in text, and it's easy to read things that aren't there. I certainly realize the importance of sacrificing one's self in order to improve the result of their team...I realize I might even have to make this sacrifice now to stop the spread of the rat infestation.

And I never meant to imply your night choices were irresponsible, just that assuming that the lack of night kills was due to your accurate choosing of who the mafia was going to kill two nights in a row was a little irresponsible. I think there must have been another factor at work.

Cam

[Talitha]

You also suggested the possibility that there might be ROUS recruits WITHOUT the leg bite. Any reason why you suggested this?

Simply because I think it MUST be the case based on what I know (unless I'm wrong and there were 3 ROUS all along):
Someone

was

a rodent, I know I'm

not

a rodent. Someone was

not protected

, I

was protected

, mathcam

was protected

. Someone

was a townie

, I'm

not a townie

, mathcam is

not a townie

. From where I'm sitting, if I'm innocent, then

so is mathcam

. If he's innocent then there are no other limpers left. Who did last night's biting?? I know it wasn't me. And Someone was rodent stew by then.

If only townies can be recruited, then we should have won the game, since only Someone fits that description.

I think you're too hung up on the limp = recruit thing. Lynch me or mathcam and you'll find out. Think outside the square. What if, for example, MeMe PMed some of the townies one night and invited them to an night out at the Fire Swamp. Then the ones who accepted the invitation got turned into ROUSes. Maybe Someone was the first to go to the fire swamp and he got bit on the way??
Farfetched I know, but the real explanation could be absolutely anything, so please keep an open mind.

[Talitha]

BTW, I'm down with Norinel's plan, unless anyone has a different suggestion.

[mole]

I'm trying to make this worth the wait. :P

If this was as straighforward as "everyone who is attacked and doesn't die joins the rodents" (i.e. both Talitha and mathcam are guilty), we're simply doomed - each night someone joins the rodents, so even if we lynch one there will still be too left. :)

Now, if one was feeling more optimistic, you might look at Talitha's chart and claim that the attack we didn't see on Night 5 was in fact blocked on Night 6 because we lynched Dourgrim on Day 5. Unfortunately this didn't seem to hold for Someone's lynching yesterday, and at this point I'll be nice and make a chart of my own with both rodent lynches marked:

Night 1: Fishbulb (died Night 2)
Night 2: JereIC (died Night 3)
Night 3: Someone (wounded Night 4/recruited?)
Night 4: DP/Talitha (wounded Night 5)
Night 5: ???

Day 5: Dourgrim lynched

Night 6: mathcam (died Night 7)
Night 7: jadesmar/mathcam 2 (wounded Night 8)

Day 7: Someone lynched

So I don't see any merit in the straight "limp = recruit" theory, since, well, I don't see any point to my being prodded back into the game if I was guaranteed to lose. ;) I am inclined to agree with Talitha and say that there is a way for the rodents to make a hidden recruit - and that's what happened Night 5. So it could be any of us. :(

Or maybe it wasn't massive doing anything, but the fact that Talitha and mathcam aren't townies. This one shows promise - Someone is the only townie to have been targetted by any rodent so far. In this case we just have to lynch all of the townies to win!*

---

Another possibility that gives us a chance is that Talitha's die-roll thing is true as well (there is precedent, the people who received rite's investigations were sorta random) and that massive succeeded in protecting one of Talitha/mathcam from the killing attack, but failed against the recruiting attack. Or maybe they just got lucky and managed to recruit both times. But what happened Night 5/6?

[mole]

*jadesmar/mathcam never claimed a role, but it doesn't matter for the purposes of the "only townies recruited" scenario since Talitha would definitely be innocent and she investigated mathcam last night.

[Fishbulb]

So, what are you suggesting, mole? Clear out the townies?

[mole]

I suggest lynching a townie, and having Talitha investigate one of the remaining townies. massive should protect people other than the townies (maybe Talitha, but that leaves everyone else open if she turns out to be the rodent).

It is a risk - if Talitha and/or mathcam are rodents they can recruit more rodents while we lynch townies and they'll win, but on the other hand if we lynch both of

them

, we could be left with all three townies as rodents, and that'd be enough votes for them to win.

Perhaps a compromise? Lynch a townie, have Talitha investigate another one. If both townies turn out innocent, lynch Talitha/mathcam?

[mathcam]

If they

were

able to do a secret recruit, they probably would have targeted someone that they didn't bite in public, i.e. not me and not Talitha, right?

Cam

[mole]

Definitely not you... I wouldn't be so sure about making that statement about Talitha though, she was bitten

before

the Night 5 secret recruit (if it happened then).

Actually, she would have been recruited the night the rodents were expecting her to die in that case. Which is even more unlikely.

I do think something needs to be done to try to disprove the straight "limp = recruit" theory and the townie thing before we pick one of the six possible secret recruits though.

---

I know

mole

is innocent. :)

I think

mathcam

is innocent. If both him and Talitha are rodents she wouldn't let both of them get caught with the same lie, and if Talitha's still innocent she cleared mathcam.

massive

appears to still have his doctor powers.

Fishbulb

might be innocent. I will go back to read the stuff about his double-voting power.

Norinel

might be guilty if you think there was a secret recruit. It wasn't on Night 5 though, since Talitha cleared him Night 7.

PBuG

might be guilty by way of a secret recruit on a townie. Didn't happen Night 5 though, since he was investigated by DP Night 6. A similar argument holds for rite investigating me Night 6, just so you don't think I have absolutely nothing to say in my defense. ;)

Talitha

might be a rodent if you believe the "limp = recruit" thing. I think we should keep her around at least one more round unless you're absolutely convinced - we could really use a cop...

Sugar

might be guilty by way of a secret recruit on a townie.

[mole]

Addendum: Of course, the "Talitha/DP investigated Norinel and PBuG after Night 5, so they can't have been secretly recruited then" arguments don't hold if Talitha is a rodent. Then again, if Talitha is a rodent she's probably the last one.